hard time understanding church decision on BSA


pooter1
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I understand there isn't much we can do about it. And I am not arguing, because I agree with most of the points made. I just really don't see a difference between letting girls and boys change clothes and sleep in the same tent, as long as they obey the "rules." I am not trying to argue, I am really looking for how it is much different. It is like saying as long as they stay moral, boys and girls can now sleep in the same tent. I have tons of gay friends, and I am not against them, so please don't take my comments that way. I also have likes a female and lots of male friends, but I wouldn't have them all sleep in a tent together.

Edited by Jennarator
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Help me understand why this is ok with the church.Why don't we let the boys and girls sleep in the same room at youth conference? Isn't it the same thing with gay boys sleeping with boys at a campout? My very weak testimony just got weaker with this statement from the church. I truly want to understand this. I thought God was unchanging and not respector of men. I just can't wrap my head around this decision. Can anyone explain this to me?

I believe that like the girl scout camps I have worked at leaders sleep in seperate tents/cabins and are never allowed to be alone with the young members. When I worked at camp if we needed to go into the girls tents we had to have another leader with us.

Also it is important to remember all the wonderful opportunities that scouting offers it members both with in terms of personal development, service in the local community and internationally.

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Greetings all. I would like to add my opinion to this forum.

I have been taught that the Church 'teaches true and correct principles, and let the people govern themselves.'

As well, according to the Proclamation to the World, written by the Church to the world, it has been made clear we believe the family is the eternal unit, mother/father/child. The final statement calls upon "all responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

It is my opinion the BSA does not fall in the category of responsible to promote measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

Unless of course:

The Church decides the eternal family unit includes eliminating either a father or a mother in exchange for another same sex parent, then the BSA is within the boundaries. The world may call a family any unit of 2 or more individuals, however, the Proclamation to the World spells it out according to God's definition.

Otherwise, with the Church continuing to support the BSA, using BSA programs as a foundation for it's youth programs, the Church is sending a mixed message to the very impressionable youth.

As well, to use the BSA program alongside an Aaronic Priesthood program undermines the very meaning of the Priesthood. (Remember, the Priesthood is the Power and Authority to act in the name of God.)

In conclusion, if the church leaders have decided what the BSA has done is ok, then who am I to question it, right? Wrong. I have been taught true and correct principles, and I have the moral obligation to speak up and disagree.

I would never put my boys in either the BSA or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints youth program, ever.

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Greetings all. I would like to add my opinion to this forum.

I have been taught that the Church 'teaches true and correct principles, and let the people govern themselves.'

As well, according to the Proclamation to the World, written by the Church to the world, it has been made clear we believe the family is the eternal unit, mother/father/child. The final statement calls upon "all responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

It is my opinion the BSA does not fall in the category of responsible to promote measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

Unless of course:

The Church decides the eternal family unit includes eliminating either a father or a mother in exchange for another same sex parent, then the BSA is within the boundaries. The world may call a family any unit of 2 or more individuals, however, the Proclamation to the World spells it out according to God's definition.

Otherwise, with the Church continuing to support the BSA, using BSA programs as a foundation for it's youth programs, the Church is sending a mixed message to the very impressionable youth.

As well, to use the BSA program alongside an Aaronic Priesthood program undermines the very meaning of the Priesthood. (Remember, the Priesthood is the Power and Authority to act in the name of God.)

In conclusion, if the church leaders have decided what the BSA has done is ok, then who am I to question it, right? Wrong. I have been taught true and correct principles, and I have the moral obligation to speak up and disagree.

I would never put my boys in either the BSA or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints youth program, ever.

So you've questioned the church's stance on this subject for the last 15-20 years or so and are just now speaking up because the BSA has aligned it's self with the teachings of the church? Or did you not realize that all the BSA has done with this choice is echo the exact stance the prophets have had for a number of years and have called their members to up hold as sons and daughter of heavenly father?

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In conclusion, if the church leaders have decided what the BSA has done is ok, then who am I to question it, right? Wrong. I have been taught true and correct principles, and I have the moral obligation to speak up and disagree.

I would never put my boys in either the BSA or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints youth program, ever.

Good morning newbirth,

As a parent you are of course entitled to choose whom your kids will associate with. However your reasoning is that you understand correct principles and how they apply better then the prophet, and better then the apostles, and better then the other general authorities of the church... Well that strikes me as an incredibly prideful position.

Again of course you can have such an opinion and even act in such a manner. However I would suggest you spend some time in prayer and scripture study finding out why you have such a big disconnect with the leaders on this matter... Once you find out why you can then take steps to deal with it.

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Good morning newbirth,

However your reasoning is that you understand correct principles and how they apply better then the prophet, and better then the apostles, and better then the other general authorities of the church... Well that strikes me as an incredibly prideful position.

.

Thank you for your input. It is easy for members to so easily suggest, as you do, that it is better to follow the prophet and the apostles, and the other general authorities, blindly, and without pause. As a parent of 9 children, spanning over 30 years, I have come across this statement numerous times and have had considerable pause in my decisions. Let me give you an example:

The bishop decided to make my neighbor the seminary teacher for the year. I strongly opposed, and told him so, however, due to the fact that she was a neighbor, and since my spouse was strongly for the idea, having suggested it to the bishop in the first place, I decided to let go and follow along. 2 months into the seminary year, the FBI raided the house at 7am during seminary, because her sons were drug addicts and have been consistently in trouble with the law, their dad being in jail as well. The seminary class was disbanded, and the seminary instructor was terminated. My boys were traumatized by the event and never attended seminary again.

Long story short, sometimes it is appropriate to follow the Spirit as a parent and as an individual, regardless of what anyone else says. The story above is just a real example of my experience in the church as it applies to following blindly. I couldn't tell you why I was opposed to it, I just knew deep in my heart it was wrong, and, 2 months later it was proven. Had I followed my heart, my children never would have had to endure the trauma of an FBI invasion of a household. It was my fault for not protecting them.

With that said, this idea of openly gay boys in a scout troop is fine, for the scout troop, however, as a parent, and wanting to surround my boys with positive role models, I would never consider putting them in such moral harms way. How can I teach my boys to choose good moral friends when their scout troop allows openly gay boys? Has gay become the new moral? Do I want my children associating with youth that smoke, drink, profess being openly gay, or immoral? I think not.

Would the prophet, the apostles, or even any of the general authorities put their grandchildren in a scout organization that is open to openly gay youth? Would they actually allow such a situation to happen, knowing that some of the youth are openly gay? What would they tell their grandchildren when the kids start telling the stories of what goes on at camp, or what the discussions are at the scout meetings? Are they going to tell them to just ignore it? Are they going to explain it away? Why go there in the first place? How would they feel if their grandchild brings home a gay friend who is proud of discussing their same sex date, etc? Isn't it normal for youth to brag about their girlfriends or boyfriends? What would the general authorities say to their grandkids when they hear about the same sex friendships, dates, etc? There are plenty of other youth activities in the community where the youth of today can find good, morally sound friends without the confusion of the gay agenda.

Again, why go there in the first place???

My opinion, again.

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So you've questioned the church's stance on this subject for the last 15-20 years or so and are just now speaking up because the BSA has aligned it's self with the teachings of the church? Or did you not realize that all the BSA has done with this choice is echo the exact stance the prophets have had for a number of years and have called their members to up hold as sons and daughter of heavenly father?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I appreciate you commenting on my post, however, I don't see how the BSA has aligned with the Church teachings. From what I read of your post, the Church already allows openly gay youth in the scouts. That I never knew, having been a scout leader in the church for well over 20 years. Never had the 'gay' discussion ever come up in all my years as a leader. I have never heard the Church leadership specifically address the 'gay' agenda within it's membership. Now I may have missed that memo, however, I thought I was pretty well connected and in the know.

The BSA is not a spiritual or religious organization, therefore I can not understand how you can suggest they have aligned itself with the teachings of the church. That's kinda like the tail wagging the dog. My opinion.

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newbirth, I assume you homeschool your kids?

The church stance is that the attraction is no more a sin than that of any hetrosexual attraction. It's a natural biological function. One of the purposes of the law of chastity is to learn to be in control of our bodies and be accountable for how we act on that attraction. So if a homosexual person is living the standards of the church (law of chastity included) then they can do and progress in the church just the same as a single hetrosexual person that is living the standards of the church (law of chastity included). That means they can hold callings, the priesthood, go on missions, attend the temple, etc. So Soul is correct the BSA is now in line with the church.

or in the words of the church.......

Sexual orientation has not previously been—and is not now—a disqualifying factor for boys who want to join Latter-day Saint Scout troops. Willingness to abide by standards of behavior continues to be our compelling interest.

Church Responds to Boy Scouts Policy Vote

I think we miss what the word "open" means. It does not mean in your face, sexually active, yell it from the rooftops gay. It means they can admit it to those they determine safe and it be ok. They can tell their priesthood or scout leaders without fear of being punished for something they didn't do (sexual relations outside of marriage).

This is a good thing. All the things ppl are talking about fearing will actually reduce. The difference is you might know about it now.

For example one of the big concerns expressed was "will this gay boy be checking out my sons when changing or in the showers". If he's having to hide the fact that he's gay then odds are yes he will be. If he can safely tell his leaders that he's gay then they can assist him in the accommodations he needs to avoid temptation, like private shower time.

Another is sharing a tent with someone they are attracted to. Again if they are hiding the fact then there is a chance that he just might end up doing that. Presenting the boy with temptations of impure thoughts that will make it very hard for him to remain true to his standards when he has no support. If he can confide in his leaders without fear of discrimination then he can say "I'd really prefer not to share a tent with ....." Reducing the stress for him and the other ym.

This "open" policy is a good thing. It allows the reality of what is already going on to be addressed and accommodated without discrimination. It allows the person to finally get some support in their desire to remain chaste. It will help more be true to their testimony instead of feeling alone and hopeless and giving up to what the world says they should be as a gay person. Isn't that the idea behind the gospel? Shouldn't we be supporting each other in our trials and helping each other to remain true? How can we do that if they must hide what their trial is?

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Thank you for your input. It is easy for members to so easily suggest, as you do, that it is better to follow the prophet and the apostles, and the other general authorities, blindly, and without pause. As a parent of 9 children, spanning over 30 years, I have come across this statement numerous times and have had considerable pause in my decisions.

Please quote any where that I said blindly follow... I'll wait.

You will not find it... You gave as your reasoning following correct principles... And pitting your reasoning and logic against the General Authorities. You give as your example a local failure of people (not principle) Therefore your example does not work for your stated case. It does attempt counter a position I never took.

But let take a practical case. Simple logic dictates the LDS groups that are going to be directly impacted by this are going to be small. Because to be impacted you will need an LDS boy between the ages of 12-16 (ok 18) that are going to openly ID as gay... While not impossible its going to be rare to the point most groups will never face it. Most scouting age boys will not be gay... Some will be confused... a small number will know but not be open (which the leaders can't deal with because they will not know). The number of groups where the leaders will need to be working with openly gay boys is going to be very very small

Now if your son's are one of the very rare groups that are. Then as a parent you can be as concerned as you would be as if the leaders were taking girls along. You can ask and find out how the leaders are going to handle it. If you don't like the answer or you don't think the leaders are up to the job then pull your sons. Then you have a very reasonable and rational basis for your actions. Then you have a foundation of personal stewardship and revelation for your individual case.

And you can do it without making the claim that you understand the principles at work better then God's chosen. You can be an exception without coming off and encouraging apostasy

Edited by estradling75
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Newbirth,

Your response to the accusation that you presume to know better than those whom the Lord had annointed with the stewardship was an unsupported anecdote which allegedly proves that you did know better than those whom! the Lord has called.

Color me unimpressed.

Your complaints and your attitude- particularly the sneer about "following blindly"- ring hollow.

A genuine LDS testimony is the antithesis of blind worship; for you to lambaste your "fellow Saints" in such a manner is both intellectually and morally deceitful.

Given that, I have no reaaon to believe that you what you claim to be, nor to afford your opinion any more weight than that of any other "counter-cult" minister or ark steadier.

Like William Law and his ilk, you are bound and determined to "save" the Church based on your own personal dogma and hubris- but cannot see past your own arrogance and pride.

Alleging that the Church is wrong- because YOU say so isn't enough.

Sneering at and belittling faithful Saints doesn't prove your point.

So spare us the sanctimony and condescension at least until you've dealt with the log in your own eye.

Edited by selek
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The BSA is not a spiritual or religious organization, therefore I can not understand how you can suggest they have aligned itself with the teachings of the church. That's kinda like the tail wagging the dog. My opinion.

This is true, the BSA is non-demonitional. Therefore, it's largely up to individual troops to decide how to run things beyond the basic BSA policies. I worked for the BSA up until 2 months ago, and from my perspective this policy change will have little if any impact on how the LDS troops have been running.

Granted, many here (including myself somewhat) wonder if continuning an association that now allows openly gay Scouts is the best decision, but it's what the Church decided to do. Again, that doesn't mean the Church will be promoting homosexual lifestyles. In my view, they are simply continuing to take what good they can out of the program.

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Something Ive been thinking about is I taught my kids to never judge anyone and be kind to everyone but I never wanted to them to hang out with other kids who did not obey what the church teaches including those who drink,smoke,drugs. If we knew that a scout was drinking would we want our scouts to be around that kind of influence? Boys talk. When they are in their tent waiting for sleep they talk. What kind of influence do you want your kid to hear in a tent at night when they are alone. The whole thing bothers me. I don't hang around and spend lots of time with those who drink,smoke etc.... they are part of the world and we should not judge but I do not want to be around that kind of influence to be tempted in any way.

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One more thing.If they are openly gay.They can talk about it share about it.Would you want your son hearing about the scout who drinks or does drugs? What is the difference?Its about the influence they can have on our beliefs and what we stand against. Im just so confused about this.

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I think the best solution is to talk to you children on a regular basis. About ALL subjects. I wouldn't lump being gay with smokers, drug users or alcohol users. To them it's not a matter of choice and it's something internal they struggle with. Our kids are more likely to befriend someone at school who abuses than to mingle with a gay. If you educate your children then they can look past the sin and treat them as Christ would want them to. I wouldn't stop my son from going to scouts, but I would tell him that, that isn't right. And if he knows anyone in there, let it go. Especially if their minding their own business when it comes to that kind of preference talk. If they do have a gay in their tent, and by chance he does start talking in that way, tell your son that you'd feel better if he didn't talk about that stuff and steer the conversation else where. Like, where's the big dipper. Or what badge are you working on, etc. I just don't see anything having to be an issue. Not when you can work with it. Talk to your boys before hand and if it makes you feel better, do it often. You never know what kind of influence your child can be for someone off track. They may just need someone to treat them as human and maybe then a light bulb can go off where they may have been struggling and see that, that isn't the direction they want to go or be in. We need to reach out our hand and help those back to the iron rod not shun them like they have a disease.

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One more thing.If they are openly gay.They can talk about it share about it.Would you want your son hearing about the scout who drinks or does drugs? What is the difference?Its about the influence they can have on our beliefs and what we stand against. Im just so confused about this.

You are conflating two states that the church views as very distinct into one... Thus you are confused. The church draws a very clear line between being tempted... And acting on that temptation. We all have temptations we just don't all have the same temptation.

Some people are going to have the burden of a being tempted with same sex attraction (Where as most of us will have an opposite sex attraction temptation).

The Church's stand is and has always been that a person who is resisting temptation or who has fully repented of their sins should be in full fellowship. A better example would be a former drinker or drug user but who as been clean for good while now. While as a parent you might fear a relapse. But as long as they are fighting they fall in the group of good examples following the teachings of the church.

The cases we need to worry about are those that are not fighting the temptation. But those who are acting on the temptation. When they do that they break the Law of Chasity and become subject to church discipline (assuming church based units). Church discipline relating to sin can and will require restrictions on activities... and can lead to being kicked out (excommunicated)

Thus the church's position has not changed... Boys who realize they have a same sex attraction and who 'open' up about it to seek help to resist (or if they have succumbed but are willing to repent) should get it with all the loving kindness we can muster.

But those who are wanting to embrace such are subject to Church discipline (not BSA) and will be restricted by the church in activities the Church has control over (local BSA groups)

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Something Ive been thinking about is I taught my kids to never judge anyone and be kind to everyone but I never wanted to them to hang out with other kids who did not obey what the church teaches including those who drink,smoke,drugs. If we knew that a scout was drinking would we want our scouts to be around that kind of influence? Boys talk. When they are in their tent waiting for sleep they talk. What kind of influence do you want your kid to hear in a tent at night when they are alone. The whole thing bothers me. I don't hang around and spend lots of time with those who drink,smoke etc.... they are part of the world and we should not judge but I do not want to be around that kind of influence to be tempted in any way.

So, in your effort to stay away from temptation, you believe that you cannot overcome it because it'll be "so strong"?

Ever thought that another scout's influence (in this scenario) can be a powerful force for good peer pressure?

If everyone avoided people who had different temptations and succumbed to them... there would be no one to help anyone with anything.

It also shows a lack of trust in your children.

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One more thing.If they are openly gay.They can talk about it share about it.Would you want your son hearing about the scout who drinks or does drugs? What is the difference?Its about the influence they can have on our beliefs and what we stand against. Im just so confused about this.

Yes. For two reasons:

1) If they are recovering from their 'trip' and can teach about how bad it is to never do so... then I want my kids to learn from the experiences of others.

2) If they are currently 'using'... I'd want my kids to be their friend to encourage them to quit and be their support friend.

Influence works both ways... if you allow it to.

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When I was growing up, a member of my teacher's quorum decided to leave the Church with the rest of his family... and joined a Jewish synagogue.

Other kids from the ward seemed to make fun of his decision.

I stood by him and was his friend. He appreciated that and told me so. We are still friends today.

Just because kids make different choices doesn't mean you should shun them or alienate them from your life.

And these choices are big... but not so drastic as to lose all respect for them. If you had a friend that was cheating on his wife... you might try an 'intervention' for him... but after a while, you just might have to let him go.

But you have to be a positive force for good FIRST... before you decide to cut them loose.

That's just my opinion.

In relation to this for those with same-sex attraction... it's not contagious. Nor should anyone with same sex attraction be trying to 'seduce' others (I would think). And it's no reason to not be their friend. If you were their friend before, why not now?

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I would like to point out that when I was in 9th grade (around 14yrs) I was introduced to all kinds of sexual "education" that I'm sure my parents would have prefered I not know at that time by hetrosexual peers at school. The few ppl that I knew that were gay talked very little about it. I heard more sexual talk about them than from them.

Why we assume it's only the gay kids that will inappropriately "educate" our kids I will never understand. Odds are if there is a bunch of sex talk in the tent before going to sleep it's among the straight kids not the gay ones.

We can never share the gospel and do missionary work if we refuse to leave our church box.

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If I could make a quick point about the tent thing, in Boy Scouts activities I either brought my own tent or arranged to share a tent with a friend beforehand. I was never forced to share a tent with anybody. Some of you are making it sound like all we do in Boy Scouts is take showers together and participate in synchronized round-robin tent sharing. ;)

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Homosexuality has now become one of those issues that anyone in any way opposing it or the agenda that has created this monster is immediately labeled. Given the immediate attention given to all things "gay", 24-7 news coverage and the internet, I don't blame the church for this position. At some point, a line will be crossed and church leadership will have to perhaps make a change.

The mission of the church is to save souls and anything sounding offensive or accusatory to homosexuals in general would only be used as a wedge to drive people from any hopes of freedom from this lifestyle.

The great thing is, whether you agree or disagree with the policy, it matters not to your salvation. The message that needs to be shared the most...IMO...is that homosexuality like any other weakness, regardless of how deeply one may be ensnared, can be completely overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To the humble and contrite seeker of healing...it is an absolute certainty and anything preached or taught to the contrary is false and of the adversary.

Edited by bytor2112
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