hard time understanding church decision on BSA


pooter1
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One more thing.If they are openly gay.They can talk about it share about it.Would you want your son hearing about the scout who drinks or does drugs? What is the difference?Its about the influence they can have on our beliefs and what we stand against. Im just so confused about this.

There in lies the point. If one is morally clean and living the Scout law he should not be talking about alcohol, except perhaps the negative impact of it's usage and they should not be discussing sex at all.

But, now this dynamic almost surely places the conversation front and center and in my view detracts from scouting.

Maybe I am behind the times (thankfully), but, honestly, no one should need to know if a young person has SSA and unless and until they have engaged in homosexual sex, they clearly are not gay..yet, so why label or allow them to label themselves as such?

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Maybe I am behind the times (thankfully), but, honestly, no one should need to know if a young person has SSA and unless and until they have engaged in homosexual sex, they clearly are not gay..yet, so why label or allow them to label themselves as such?

Are heterosexual people not hetero until they have sex? That makes no sense. I do agree that none of it has a place in boy scouts. Boy scouts is not about sex of any kind.

Still if I had a son in boy scouts I would like to know what the plans were for camping. Ahead of there being an issue. I do not envy the leaders trying to find a good balance.

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Maybe I am behind the times (thankfully), but, honestly, no one should need to know if a young person has SSA and unless and until they have engaged in homosexual sex, they clearly are not gay..yet, so why label or allow them to label themselves as such?

Sorry, but i have to disagree with this. I knew long long before i ever even had my first date with a guy never mind anything else. As Anne pointed out most straight people know who they like long before they sleep with them, so why wouldn't it be the same on the other side of the fence?

This being said i fully agree sex has no place in scouting, no one should talk about anything to do with relationships of any kind. Those topics can be discussed with peers outside of scouting, there's plenty of time for it then.

Edited by Soulsearcher
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Sorry, but i have to disagree with this. I knew long long before i ever even had my first date with a guy never mind anything else. As Anne pointed out most straight people know who they like long before they sleep with them, so why wouldn't it be the same on the other side of the fence?

This being said i fully agree sex has no place in scouting, no one should talk about anything to do with relationships of any kind. Those topics can be discussed with peers outside of scouting, there's plenty of time for it then.

Respectfully, you may have had SSA at a young age. But, as far as being a homosexual, i do think a young person cannot be labeled as such accurately unless they are engaged in sexual activity with their own gender. As noted in other posts, SSA attraction is not a sin per se, it is acting upon those desires that causes sin. Since we strongly encourage youth to be chaste (and don't most parents regardless of religious beliefs encourage this?) they cannot be accurately described as homosexual.

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Are heterosexual people not hetero until they have sex? That makes no sense. I do agree that none of it has a place in boy scouts. Boy scouts is not about sex of any kind.

Still if I had a son in boy scouts I would like to know what the plans were for camping. Ahead of there being an issue. I do not envy the leaders trying to find a good balance.

Fair enough. I admit the whole terminology thing throws me off. My point is that , whether a kid is considered gay, homosexual or whatever, at this young age, if we allow kids to identify and be identified as such, it will do long term damage to them if indeed they are not and go on to live a normal lifestyle.

This link is to an interesting article and other than the article itself, i do not know anything about the author or the site and this is not an endorsement.

From the article:

Of course, the phrases are tempting because of their convenience and efficiency. They are common, close at hand, and make quick work of a difficult issue. But they also identify an individual person with his homosexual inclinations. They presume that a person is his inclinations or attractions; he is a “gay” or is a “homosexual.” At some point adults have to admit that a fifteen-year-old who claims to be “a questioning transgendered bisexual” is really just confused.

Edited by bytor2112
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So a 15 yr old boy that wants a girlfriend is not a hetrosexual? If one can be a hetrosexual then one can be a homosexual. I chose to marry a man because I knew before I had sex that I was hetrosexual (I knew this as a teenager). The actions do not define the attraction. Why is that so hard to comprehend in reverse?

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about definitions. It's like talking to my 9 yr old who wants to call the bb gun a shotgun. Well you can call it that but no one will know what you are talking about. If you want to communicate and understand and be understood you have to use the words the rest of the world uses. The same is true for my learning disabilities. I don't consider myself disabled. I consider it a learning difference but guess what.. if I want accommodations and to be understood in the world I have to call it a disability.

Homosexual is not a verb, it's an adjective to describe ones sexaul attractions. Gay is the common accepted alternative to homosexual. So one can describe himself/herself as gay and not be sexualy active. Homosexual sex is an action. Hetrosexual ppl can engage in homosexual sex and they are not gay. Gay ppl can have hetrosexual sex and it doesn't change that they have homosexual desires. One can act contrary to their natural desires/attractions. It's not usually viewed as healthy but they can. The church stance is against actions. Sexual relations outside of marriage. It's pretty cut and dry. So someone can be gay, meaning homosexual attractions, and be living the law of chastity. If someone tells you they are gay and you automatically assume that means they are saying they are sexualy active then you are doing them and yourself a huge disservice. It's like calling a bb gun a shotgun. All communication breaks down. They shouldn't have to prove they are gay by acting on it anymore than single ppl should have to prove they are straight by acting on it. That would defeat the point of the law of chastity.

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The problem Gwen is that no one is going to say..."ooh, I heard Tommy is a hetero". Homosexual, gay, lesbian are all words that most associate with a deviant sexual desire or behavior. Being confused and despite Souls declaration that he knew from a young age doesn't mean that all do or that they are on a course that is unchangeable just because they are developing differently.

Or a the writer of the article puts it:

The new approach, however, does just the opposite. It encourages labeling. Rather than struggle through the difficulties of adolescence, a high-school freshman or sophomore can now, with official support, profess to be gay—and he instantly has an identity and a group. Now he belongs. He knows who he is. Gone is the possibility that adolescents might be confused, perhaps even wrong. Adults typically display a wise reserve about the self-discoveries of high-school students: they know adolescents are still figuring things out, and they recognize their responsibility to help sort through the confusion. So why is all this natural wisdom somehow abandoned these days—in the most confused and confusing area of adolescent sexuality?

Edited by bytor2112
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Another excerpt that furthers my points with much more eloquence:

Further, opposition to homosexual attractions and actions makes sense only when it is rooted in the full truth of human sexuality. Gay school groups gain approval and support partly because heterosexual unchastity (contraception, masturbation, premarital sex, adultery, and all the rest) has compromised so many. Our culture’s deliberate separation of sex from procreation has destroyed our ability to articulate a coherent explanation of sexual ethics. Parents and educators have damaged the tools that would allow them to explain why homosexual activity is wrong.

Understanding the full truth of human sexuality produces an appreciation for purity. Of course, all young people need to strive for this virtue. But purity takes on a greater significance for those with same-sex attractions. Nothing will confirm a supposed “gay” identity more quickly and solidly than homosexual actions. After a homosexual encounter, the adolescent must either admit the error of his actions and repent—or more boldly identify himself with his actions and look for a way to justify them.

As sexual license increases in our culture, we will encounter more adolescents confused about their sexuality and perhaps experiencing same-sex attractions. The easy option is to dissolve the tension by approving homosexuality and even encouraging it. But the most charitable thing we can do for such youth is to love them as God’s own images, to teach them the full truth about human sexuality, and to enable them to live it. Anything less is giving our children stones when they ask for bread.

Paul Scalia is a priest of the Diocese of Arlington, Virginia, and chaplain for the Arlington chapter of Courage.

Edited by bytor2112
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Hetrosexual ppl can engage in homosexual sex and they are not gay.

You are obviously not a guy. If one is engaging in homosexual sex and claims to be hetero...they are homosexual or deviant and quite frankly society still considers it to be both and if someone is living the LOC they are obviously seeking to overcome SSA and do not wish to be a homosexual. The very meaning of repentance is to change...to not be and not identify as or with with a perverse desire to engage in sexual activity with your own gender.

They shouldn't have to prove they are gay by acting on it anymore than single ppl should have to prove they are straight by acting on it. That would defeat the point of the law of chastity.

Encouraging someone to to identify as gay at this age is encouraging that end. The point of the law of chastity is to be clean before the Lord so that we may return to HIM. Ultimately, the runaway train that continues to gain momentum that is the gay agenda will only lead to a disastrous crash

Edited by bytor2112
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Fair enough. I admit the whole terminology thing throws me off. My point is that , whether a kid is considered gay, homosexual or whatever, at this young age, if we allow kids to identify and be identified as such, it will do long term damage to them if indeed they are not and go on to live a normal lifestyle.

This link is to an interesting article and other than the article itself, i do not know anything about the author or the site and this is not an endorsement.

From the article:

Of course, the phrases are tempting because of their convenience and efficiency. They are common, close at hand, and make quick work of a difficult issue. But they also identify an individual person with his homosexual inclinations. They presume that a person is his inclinations or attractions; he is a “gay” or is a “homosexual.” At some point adults have to admit that a fifteen-year-old who claims to be “a questioning transgendered bisexual” is really just confused.

I've typed a few responses to this but they keep getting very long winded.

I can say i understand the concern, but i wonder if people realize that the exact opposite has been happening for who knows how long. The type of behavior and attitudes that people on this site have been worried about is the exact same behaviors that have been happening only in reverse. People presume and label most everyone as straight, treat them as straight, teach them how to be straight, ect ect. Now while this might sound silly, take the concern you have for a straight confused youth and wonder how a gay youth feels? We do know we are gay long before we have sex. I mean if you are not supposed to have sex before you are married do you think you might be gay until you say "i do" and then have sex with your wife to verify? Gay is the convenient label for homosexual, (oddly enough started by straight people if i remember right), now some people have though it better to try and separate the behavior and the attraction by adding SSA to the mix. Really this is more for the comfort of groups that need to have the separation, in reality the separation for those who generally exist with in this group don't acknowledge it, so that's where the misunderstandings come from. We don't have to have sex to know, any more than you need to have sex to be sure you are heterosexual. I know it's hard to understand but there's not as much confusion or the type of confusion out there that some people seem to think there is. The closest to the concern i see people expressing is those who want to defy authority and so they say they are gay or bisexual. One can blame the gay agenda for this, but in talking to them, they say it's because the other side makes such a big deal about it that they figure it's the best way to be cool and flaunt authority. They are not confused in the way you think, they just enjoy raising your blood pressure. I have yet to come across an individual who was labeled gay who figured out he wasn't and couldn't get out unless they had suffered major childhood abuse and in reality that's a completely different issue. The other thing is the thinking it's all choice and might be prevented in some way, and i think with bytor this is where the disconnect might be coming. The root cause of actual homosexuality isn't known. I'm all for the nature and nurture arguments to different degrees for every individual, some biology some environment, but really with minor exceptions not much influences this enough to change it from what it is. Now the choice to act or not as the church acknowledges is where the difference is. As much as some adults have to accept a youth might be confused, the same adults might have to accept a child isn't confused and just need to listen.

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I think the overwhelming rush to embrace people who are gay from the media, pop culture and political left pretty much insures that most kids are not going to be mistreated or bullied. I know that is not 100% possible but nothing is....

So, I am simply suggesting that while all of this has been occurring it has become increasingly easier for a youth to declare themselves gay when maybe they really are not gay. In my view, a kid who has gay tendencies and doesn't act on them is not gay and can overcome these desires through Christs Atonement.But, if the world increasingly tells kid it's ok...you are born that way and it's okay to let everyone know on your 13th birthday and your first camporee is really doing a disservice to the child.

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One thing to add.

In the threads on the BSA and many others. The articles quoted, the links provided, and much of the conversation is from adults who haven't had this struggle. The comments, quote, articles all come from sources that pretty much are against the entire idea and really don't have much of an understanding of the people this is about, the youth that are effected.

It's one thing, and really it's commendable the depth of concern shown, to want to protect and shelter youth, but the problem being is that when you already have a laser focus on the issue, it can be hard to sometimes want to hear or listen to the voices of the people trying to speak. The "we are older and we know better" or " we know the moral truth so we know better" can have strong benefits, but if this leads to us not listening or us not wanting to hear that which conflicts, even if it's true, can cause more damage that some of the specters we think might cause harm.

A Gay Teens Experiences - Colbys Story of a Gay Teens Experiences

Boy Scout rejected for Eagle Scout after coming out gay

so many more like this out there, but really, if you can talk to them face to face, get to know them and just listen completely, it gives a bit more insight that listening to those who talk about them with out knowing them.

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I think the overwhelming rush to embrace people who are gay from the media, pop culture and political left pretty much insures that most kids are not going to be mistreated or bullied. I know that is not 100% possible but nothing is....

So, I am simply suggesting that while all of this has been occurring it has become increasingly easier for a youth to declare themselves gay when maybe they really are not gay. In my view, a kid who has gay tendencies and doesn't act on them is not gay and can overcome these desires through Christs Atonement.But, if the world increasingly tells kid it's ok...you are born that way and it's okay to let everyone know on your 13th birthday and your first camporee is really doing a disservice to the child.

Two big errors that i see in this.

First off you better believe that we still get bullied and mistreated, and it's not just youth. The amount of slurs i've had yelled at me or people i've had try to bully me or that i have witnessed is something you wouldn't believe. Take this number and multiply it ten fold and you have what gay youth face. People keep thinking there's this amazing culture that now greatly embraces homosexuality but they are sooooooooo far off it's not even funny.

Second is, just because you don't think it works that way doesn't make it so. It's what makes you feel better and what helps you understand the ideas but that's not how it works. Gay with out sex is gay, just like you were straight before you had sex. Instead of trying to work around it, accept it, it is what it is. are there exceptions, you bet there are, but again, if you talk to gay youth you will get the truth vs what you think or you are told. Even most of the christian support sites for gay youth understand this and focus on dealing with it and keeping the gospel.

As a side note while some kids might come out like you think, most will wrestle and agonize over that choice for years, some might not make it and have the choice made for them. if you read the first link i posted it gives a good idea of how the mind works and a rather common story.

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Is it possible for someone to be confused as a teen? yes, in fact it's quite common. Will that person eventually figure out what is their personal truth? yup, that happens too.

I agree it's sad when a youth is pushed into experimenting sexually by our culture. The goal is to teach kids the standards they should live by no matter their attractions at that point. If they can avoid making mistakes (like sexual sins) as a teen by the time they are ready to have a healthy sexual relationship they will know what their attractions are.

I too worry about the impact of culture on teens and their sexuality. But I think the greater focus needs to be on the promiscuity aspect of it, no matter the sexual preference.

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As a faithful Priesthood holder and as someone who believes absolutely in Christ and HIS power to heal and make whole, I am certain that anyone enslaved in any sinful lifestyle or struggling with any unholy desire and truly desires to overcome can.

The framer of our World and worlds without number is not limited in HIS ability to save and redeem. It is based on this reality that my belief system is centered and founded on.

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As a faithful Priesthood holder and as someone who believes absolutely in Christ and HIS power to heal and make whole, I am certain that anyone enslaved in any sinful lifestyle or struggling with any unholy desire and truly desires to overcome can.

The framer of our World and worlds without number is not limited in HIS ability to save and redeem. It is based on this reality that my belief system is centered and founded on.

Depending on what you mean by overcome i could agree. If you mean they can live a life of chastity and follow the gospel i agree, if you mean that god can turn them straight, i have my doubts and minus strong minority of cases to the contrary haven't really seen this play out.

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Depending on what you mean by overcome i could agree. If you mean they can live a life of chastity and follow the gospel i agree, if you mean that god can turn them straight, i have my doubts and minus strong minority of cases to the contrary haven't really seen this play out.

Then you do not believe in God...at least not as I do. The Atonement can change our very natures. Is it easy or immediate...no. We are admonished to not enter into temptation, indeed to flee from it and to pray always lest we enter into temptation.

All of that said, if adults may choose to exercise their agency as they see fit......but let's let kids be kids as long as we can an not rush them into a lifesytle choice that may have otherwise been averted.

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I believe that whatever you feed will grow. If ssa is fed and nourished it will take root and develop to the point that its near impossible to undo. I also believe that if ssa is diminished and starved, one can live a happy, fulfilling hetero lifestyle. Ssa may never completely go away but it can be squelched if the person so desires.

Edited by carlimac
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Then you do not believe in God...at least not as I do. The Atonement can change our very natures. Is it easy or immediate...no. We are admonished to not enter into temptation, indeed to flee from it and to pray always lest we enter into temptation.

All of that said, if adults may choose to exercise their agency as they see fit......but let's let kids be kids as long as we can an not rush them into a lifesytle choice that may have otherwise been averted.

Sorry bytor, too many good christians have taken their own lives because of that thinking. They never acted or even entertained their desires, but when no hint of change came they took their lives rather than continue being "weak" or 'not good enough" i can't support that type of god. Giving them strength to live with their trial and make it through, that i could accept.

And i'll agree about not rushing kids if you mean not rushing them in any direction, straight or gay. no talking eternal marriage before 18, no talking families and kids or dating or anything that involves a hint of sexuality, other wise you aren't letting kids be kids, you are doing the very thing you don't like, just from the opposite side.

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I believe that whatever you feed will grow. If ssa is fed and nourished it will take root and develop to the point that its near impossible to undo. I also believe that if ssa is diminished and starved, one can live a happy, fulfilling hetero lifestyle. Ssa may never completely go away but it can be sqelched if tbe person so desires.

And yet but for a hand full of examples you've been proven wrong by the vast majority who have tried, yet again what one thinks can be disproven by the landslide of fact to show otherwise. When even the loudest advocates of your logic admit they lied do you not ever wonder if maybe you should start listening instead of constantly seeking to cling to a lie. The desires can possibly be diminished, starve something long enough it dies, this does not mean something new grows back that's completely different.

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Sorry bytor, too many good christians have taken their own lives because of that thinking. They never acted or even entertained their desires, but when no hint of change came they took their lives rather than continue being "weak" or 'not good enough" i can't support that type of god. Giving them strength to live with their trial and make it through, that i could accept.

And i'll agree about not rushing kids if you mean not rushing them in any direction, straight or gay. no talking eternal marriage before 18, no talking families and kids or dating or anything that involves a hint of sexuality, other wise you aren't letting kids be kids, you are doing the very thing you don't like, just from the opposite side.

Why would anyone not encourage, nurture and seek to foster normal and healthy relationships..whether LDS or otherwise? The thread is really about the BSA and not homosexuality in general...I am perhaps at fault for the tangent.

Let me conclude and exit with this......... I want the radical gay agenda to stay away from kids and particularly the BSA. Too late.

Should we be tolerant?....yep. Should we love and support people who struggle with SSA?...of course. Should we care for and welcome even those who openly embrace a gay lifestyle...YES. Should we have compassion for and mourn for those who end up as those you described above? Absolutely. Should we take a stand against those who would mistreat or bully......we must.

I don't hate Soulsearcher....I just feel as passionate about the issue as you do, but from a different point of view.

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This being said i fully agree sex has no place in scouting, no one should talk about anything to do with relationships of any kind. Those topics can be discussed with peers outside of scouting, there's plenty of time for it then.

I disagree, at least with regard to adult relationships. A healthy and righteous family life is integral to scouting. In that context, saying a scoutmaster shouldn't be allowed to talk about his relationship to his wife and the kinds of things that build versus detract from that relationship, would strike me as just plain silly.

Sorry bytor, too many good christians have taken their own lives because of that thinking. They never acted or even entertained their desires, but when no hint of change came they took their lives rather than continue being "weak" or 'not good enough" i can't support that type of god. Giving them strength to live with their trial and make it through, that i could accept.

Five years from now the party line will be that it's the demand for celibacy, rather than conversion, that leads to suicide. Enter the final phase of the formerly extreme gay-rights agenda: the religion-is-killing-our-children phase.

But, yeah, I'm probably crazy. I was one of those slippery-slope loons who thought that Lawrence would lead to same-sex marriage, and we all know how how far from reality that turned out to be. (Oh, wait a minute . . .)

And i'll agree about not rushing kids if you mean not rushing them in any direction, straight or gay. no talking eternal marriage before 18, no talking families and kids or dating or anything that involves a hint of sexuality, other wise you aren't letting kids be kids, you are doing the very thing you don't like, just from the opposite side.

Soulsearcher:

I love you, man (in a purely platonic way!), but Mormons have no obligation to be impartial in this matter or even to pretend to be so. Our definition of sin is clear and our culture, discourse, and doctrine demand that we pass those definitions on to our children.

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Why would anyone not encourage, nurture and seek to foster normal and healthy relationships..whether LDS or otherwise? The thread is really about the BSA and not homosexuality in general...I am perhaps at fault for the tangent.

Let me conclude and exit with this......... I want the radical gay agenda to stay away from kids and particularly the BSA. Too late.

Should we be tolerant?....yep. Should we love and support people who struggle with SSA?...of course. Should we care for and welcome even those who openly embrace a gay lifestyle...YES. Should we have compassion for and mourn for those who end up as those you described above? Absolutely. Should we take a stand against those who would mistreat or bully......we must.

I don't hate Soulsearcher....I just feel as passionate about the issue as you do, but from a different point of view.

In honesty i agree with a lot of what you say in principal, i just wish you could see that there's another side at work, for all the talk of radical gay, i wish people could see the impact of the religious and conservative side on gay youth. I know people think it's a crock or being blown out of proportion when we speak of it, but it does take a toll. I wish everyone left the kids alone in certain ways and just were able to offer support when needed. No judgements or pressure just listen, understand and help the kids when they need it.

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