hard time understanding church decision on BSA

[carlimac]

Whew. OK now I'm on a real computer instead of my phone. Easier to fix typos.

Soul, I didn't say it would go away completely or forever. That noxious weed will probably start growing back at some point. So you just take an ax to it or refuse to feed or give into it again and again and again for your whole life. That's what we need to do with all habits that we want to be rid of. That's how alcoholics or anyone with a tendency they don't like has to deal with it.

But above all, there first has to be a desire to diminish the tendency. This runs so very counter to those of the LGBT ilk who only want it acknowledged, justified and fed a never ending banquet. There ARE those good folks who believe in the idea of hetero families and eternal marraige who have SSA but DON'T want it to dominate their lives and are willing to do whatever it takes to diminish those feelings. Why does society not support and encourage them? Why are we telling those youth that they'll never be anything but gay. You often say yourself that they are bound to fail. That's a crying shame. I think it's because LGBT's fear the truth more than anything that it's manageable without giving into it . We should be supporting youth and telling them that they DON'T have to be gay if they don't want to be.

I feel the thread closure coming...

Edited May 28, 2013 by carlimac

[carlimac]

In honesty i agree with a lot of what you say in principal, i just wish you could see that there's another side at work, for all the talk of radical gay, i wish people could see the impact of the religious and conservative side on gay youth. I know people think it's a crock or being blown out of proportion when we speak of it, but it does take a toll. I wish everyone left the kids alone in certain ways and just were able to offer support when needed. No judgements or pressure just listen, understand and help the kids when they need it.[/quote

I would like to know what you would do to help them? When you say help them, specifically what would you say or do?

[carlimac]

I'm still trying to figure out how the conversation relates to the OP's concern and question.

It's taking a circuitous route as most threads do on this forum.

[Soulsearcher]

I disagree, at least with regard to adult relationships. A healthy and righteous family life is integral to scouting. In that context, saying a scoutmaster shouldn't be allowed to talk about his relationship to his wife and the kinds of things that build versus detract from that relationship, would strike me as just plain silly.

Five years from now the party line will be that it's the demand for celibacy, rather than conversion, that leads to suicide. Enter the final phase of the formerly extreme gay-rights agenda: the religion-is-killing-our-children phase.

But, yeah, I'm probably crazy. I was one of those slippery-slope loons who thought that Lawrence would lead to same-sex marriage, and we all know how how far from reality that turned out to be. (Oh, wait a minute . . .)

Soulsearcher:

I love you, man (in a purely platonic way!), but Mormons have no obligation to be impartial in this matter or even to pretend to be so. Our definition of sin is clear and our culture, discourse, and doctrine demand that we pass those definitions on to our children.

And you just proved my point. most of what i said was tongue in cheek. What i said was silly in a lot of ways, but it's what people are saying one side should do while the other side shouldn't.

How you pass everything on to your kids is the point. it can be passed on in a way that doesn't harm others. Many posters here have kinda seen it, though they get mocked or belittled. Not once have i really advocated anything outside what the church teaches and i've stood up for the current teachings quite a bit. The BSA has moved in line with the church. The current policy has great positive oppertunities for youth that already feel scared to death. You can teach your kids to make sure they don't make other kids feel scared or worthless, which is from what i understand is what the church wants. Don't question if someone is gay, or why, but help them stay pure if that is what they choose, or if they don't just watch the language your kids use when they deal with others. Picking apart someone else's trial doesn't tend to make them feel loved or wanted, but helping them try and carry the burden even if they fail not only leaves a lasting impression but shows you've put your money where your faith is. This is what i've seen the church move towards, this is what i'm seeing the BSA move towards, now if we could only get the membership to move this way a bit quicker.

One side note, the celibacy leading to suicide comment was a bit cold to me. There have been countless suicides in utah of members who had no problem living the celibate life but where still burdened by the desires, members had made them feel like it was their fault they couldn't change. not one mentioned it was the celibacy, but all said it was the fact they couldn't change and were made to feel it was expected. The church has purposly put out statements addressing this because they saw it was an issue, so i'm not sure making light of it was in the best taste, and i wouldn't have mentioned it if certain posters didn't keep insisting it is a very viable alternative.

[pam]

It's taking a circuitous route as most threads do on this forum.

And that was the reason the last one got closed.

[Soulsearcher]

In honesty i agree with a lot of what you say in principal, i just wish you could see that there's another side at work, for all the talk of radical gay, i wish people could see the impact of the religious and conservative side on gay youth. I know people think it's a crock or being blown out of proportion when we speak of it, but it does take a toll. I wish everyone left the kids alone in certain ways and just were able to offer support when needed. No judgements or pressure just listen, understand and help the kids when they need it.[/quote

I would like to know what you would do to help them? When you say help them, specifically what would you say or do?

First off i listen to them. I talk things out and usually don't say a heck of a lot til they are done talking. Then i ask every possible question that can come to mind. When they answer again i listen completely. Once that's done i use the information they have given me and i start working with them to answer their own questions and use their own thoughts. More often than not i let them talk through to find their own answers. I've found depending on their age and ability most youths can figure a lot out with just a little focus. The more they talk things out the more they see different sides and reach understanding. I've found most youth respond better if they think they've come up with their own answer. Depending on the problem i give them my insight, i help them look for answers and gain insight from all side of the issue. When all that is done i tend to start at the beginning again to make sure they've covered it all and are at peace with what ever outcome has been reached. Now you asked specifically and that i can't say with out a very specific issue.

one of the kids who used to come to me for advice used to really frustrate me, he'd ask advice and i'd just give it to him and of course he'd do just the opposite. I'd usually turn out to be right and he'd come, cry on my shoulder a bit and i'd ask why he didn't listen. He said he knew i was right, but because someone else was "telling him what to do" he wanted to prove them wrong. I changed my method to what i mentioned above and all of a sudden he was telling himself what to do and he was making better choices and happier with out a lot of his stress.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Soulsearcher

[Just_A_Guy]

How you pass everything on to your kids is the point. it can be passed on in a way that doesn't harm others. . . . You can teach your kids to make sure they don't make other kids feel scared or worthless

No, Soulsearcher, I can't. Knowing that someone disagrees with you ("you" being in the generic sense, not directed at you personally), ultimately causes some degree of fear and a challenge to your own sense of self-worth.

Once the gay-rights lobby arrogates to itself the sole right to define "harm others", sooner or later they'll be after me. They'll be after my church, and they'll be after my kids. They may not even plan for that right now; but it's where they'll end up. Because they're humans; and humans--deep down--hate to be gainsaid.

One side note, the celibacy leading to suicide comment was a bit cold to me.

And the "we-only-want-this-far-and-no-further" line from the gay rights lobby is wearing a bit thin to me.

There have been countless suicides in utah of members who had no problem living the celibate life . . .

SS, like I've said--I like you, I wish you the best, I've enjoyed our exchanges over the past months and years, and I have no doubt of your personal integrity.

But I will bet you lunch at a restaurant of your choice in Salt Lake City that by December 31, 2025, you'll have abandoned that position. Not because you're dishonest or have an anti-Mormon or anti-conservative vendetta; but because one's opinions are naturally influenced by what one has read and continues to read. As the tenor of the literature explaining gay-youth-suicides sharpens against conservative religion, I'm betting your opinion will evolve.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[carlimac]

First off i listen to them. I talk things out and usually don't say a heck of a lot til they are done talking. Then i ask every possible question that can come to mind. When they answer again i listen completely. Once that's done i use the information they have given me and i start working with them to answer their own questions and use their own thoughts. More often than not i let them talk through to find their own answers. I've found depending on their age and ability most youths can figure a lot out with just a little focus. The more they talk things out the more they see different sides and reach understanding. I've found most youth respond better if they think they've come up with their own answer. Depending on the problem i give them my insight, i help them look for answers and gain insight from all side of the issue. When all that is done i tend to start at the beginning again to make sure they've covered it all and are at peace with what ever outcome has been reached. Now you asked specifically and that i can't say with out a very specific issue.

one of the kids who used to come to me for advice used to really frustrate me, he'd ask advice and i'd just give it to him and of course he'd do just the opposite. I'd usually turn out to be right and he'd come, cry on my shoulder a bit and i'd ask why he didn't listen. He said he knew i was right, but because someone else was "telling him what to do" he wanted to prove them wrong. I changed my method to what i mentioned above and all of a sudden he was telling himself what to do and he was making better choices and happier with out a lot of his stress.

That was a bit vague. Do you ever tell them that their same gender attraction is real and genuine and that it's A-OK? Just wondering, that's all.

[Guest Danar2amir]

It seemed odd to me at first but then realising that the key to the knowledge of God lies with the First Pres.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Danar2amir

[selek]

It seemed odd to me at first but then realising that the key to the knowledge of God lies with the First Pres.

I find this statement to be a bit broad.

The key to pronouncing doctrine for the entire Church belongs to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.

Yet we each are entitled to knowledge and revelation from God as well, within the limits of our faithfulness and stewardship.

Mormonism is not a blind faith, nor a top-down, command-and-control organization.

Each of us is entitled to personal revelation and ratification that we are, if fact, doing the Lord's will.

Then, and only then, does it become a question of obedience.

[Soulsearcher]

That was a bit vague. Do you ever tell them that their same gender attraction is real and genuine and that it's A-OK? Just wondering, that's all.

Depending on the youth yes i have, all depends on what they have to say.

[Wingnut]

[Soulsearcher]

No, Soulsearcher, I can't. Knowing that someone disagrees with you ("you" being in the generic sense, not directed at you personally), ultimately causes some degree of fear and a challenge to your own sense of self-worth.

Once the gay-rights lobby arrogates to itself the sole right to define "harm others", sooner or later they'll be after me. They'll be after my church, and they'll be after my kids. They may not even plan for that right now; but it's where they'll end up. Because they're humans; and humans--deep down--hate to be gainsaid.

And the "we-only-want-this-far-and-no-further" line from the gay rights lobby is wearing a bit thin to me.

SS, like I've said--I like you, I wish you the best, I've enjoyed our exchanges over the past months and years, and I have no doubt of your personal integrity.

But I will bet you lunch at a restaurant of your choice in Salt Lake City that by December 31, 2025, you'll have abandoned that position. Not because you're dishonest or have an anti-Mormon or anti-conservative vendetta; but because one's opinions are naturally influenced by what one has read and continues to read. As the tenor of the literature explaining gay-youth-suicides sharpens against conservative religion, I'm betting your opinion will evolve.

See i understand what you are saying because i have the same fears when it comes to conservatives, yet i was told by many on this site that it's silly to worry because the conservatives would never get harsher or make moves against gays, and yet the last election saw many of them want to take things away or regress gay rights. So are you as willing to admit the conservatives are just as much against being gainsaid and are just as willing to keep pushing?

I'll accept my opinion will evolve, but again just like i've seen people's opinions evolve in the other direction on this site. That being said i also do take reports with a grain of salt. One of the reasons i took issue with your comment was because i have been there. I was celibate for many years, i prayed so hard to change and like many others was made to feel like it was my fault i couldn't change, and it took a toll. Reading the stories and suicide notes of the people i mentioned, it wasn't the religion that made them kill themselves, it was the ignorant members. My opinions have evolved from despising the church to respecting and endorsing it's stance for those who seek to pursue the gospel. My opinions on ignorant people hasn't changed. I don't care if they are ignorant conservative religious followers or radical gay activists, i can't stand ignorant people who refuse to evolve and learn.

And the easiest way to make sure they "don't come after you" is to talk and listen vs telling them you know everything.(also a generic you, not directed personally directed) The church has made huge leaps here and it's caused a lot of people to redirect their energy(not enough but it takes time to get the message out, and time for members to get on board as well) The core reason religion has the issues it does is so many pushed and spoke before they listened and tried to understand, and now are playing a bit of catch up over coming a reputation they never should have had, but kind of stepped into by accident and it's unfortunate because they in general don't deserve it.

[Just_A_Guy]

See i understand what you are saying because i have the same fears when it comes to conservatives, yet i was told by many on this site that it's silly to worry because the conservatives would never get harsher or make moves against gays, and yet the last election saw many of them want to take things away or regress gay rights.

Out of curiosity: "take away" what, besides marriage?

So are you as willing to admit the conservatives are just as much against being gainsaid and are just as willing to keep pushing?

I think groupthink and herd mentality are universal human traits, sure. But I'll hold off on getting more specific unless/until we get a little more detail about what sorts of advocacy you feel you've seen and heard.

As for what I've seen and heard: At present, it's the gay rights folks who have built a thirty-year track record of bait-and-switch with regard to their long-term aims. It's the gay rights folks who are trying to choose which professional fields their opponents will be permitted to work in, what ideals their opponents' children will be inculcated with in public elementary, and what kind of government sanction will be faced by those who express their opinions in the wrong way.

And, more generally: it wasn't conservatives who just used the IRS as their personal goon squad--to the applause of twenty percent of the Americans (including, if my from-the-hip calculations are correct, easily over thirty to thirty-five percent of progressives) . It wasn't conservatives who just bugged the AP. It wasn't conservatives whose HHS secretary bullied private business into contributing millions of dollars to advance their political agenda.

So, yeah--I perceive the gay rights movement as the greater threat at present. Hopefully, if the pendulum swings back, I'll have the integrity to stick up for the other side's rights to work in their chosen field, not have their political enemies indoctrinating their children, not be jailed for asserting their political or moral positions, and not have their political action groups audited into irrelevance. But right now, Soulsearcher--it's your side's turn to stick up for us. And frankly--you're failing. What I keep hearing from the left as I bring up these abuses is, increasingly, "well . . . but you deserved it." (Exhibit A.) (Exhibit B.)

Reading the stories and suicide notes of the people i mentioned, it wasn't the religion that made them kill themselves, it was the ignorant members.

And again, who defines "ignorant"--both in terms of people, and behavior? You do.

Let's chat in twelve years.

And the easiest way to make sure they "don't come after you" is to talk and listen vs telling them you know everything.(also a generic you, not directed personally directed)

I don't disagree with what the Church is doing, but we will never stop--as you put it--"telling [you we] know everything". Because at its core, we do "know" that gay sex is wrong and--quite frankly--soul-destroying. Your side won't sit and take that. They can't even take a lowly wedding photographer saying "thanks for the offer of business, but I really don't feel comfortable with what you're asking me to do. But here's a list of other people who would be thrilled to handle your ceremony."

And really, why should they? They have the political wind at their backs.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[carlimac]

JAG is a force to be reckoned with.