"Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

[Seminarysnoozer]

From other discussions, we have recently talked about the influence of our body verses the spirit. Knowing that we are dual beings with contrasting natures, as David O. Mckay puts it, is there a separation of "mind" between the "natural mind" and the "spiritual mind"? In other words, are those two separate systems or are they one system that flips back and forth between being natural and sometimes spiritual?

Some other quotes to stimulate thought about this question;

D&C 67: "10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind."

It seems that the natural mind and the veil go hand in hand.

____

Bruce Fordham

"

Do you ever feel as though your thoughts control you—not the other way around? It doesn’t have to be that way.

Perhaps it’s a familiar scenario: a child repeatedly opens a cupboard door even though you have told her—several times—to stop. A field goal kicker misses the goal even when he has thought to himself, “Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it.” Or perhaps you eat a piece of chocolate cake even though in passing through the kitchen, you tell yourself, “Don’t eat that.”

Why does this happen?

Think about how you respond to a negative or inappropriate thought that comes into your mind, either as a result of unhealthy thought patterns or simply because you are a natural man or woman (see Mosiah 3:19; D&C 67:12). Perhaps you reprimand yourself. Or maybe you repeatedly tell yourself to stop thinking about that subject. In the case of the first response, you unwittingly weaken your resistance to such thoughts and lower your sense of self-worth and confidence. With the second response, you unknowingly give energy and strength to the undesirable thought by repeating its image. This occurs because our brains are unable to replace something with nothing. When there is not another thought or activity to replace a negative one, the thought to open the cupboard or miss the field goal or eat the cake takes root because of the image’s repetition in the vulnerable mind.

Of course, missing a field goal or having a piece of chocolate cake aren’t evil, but these examples of how our minds work hold true in cases where thoughts are inappropriate. We know that one of the ways Satan influences us to work against ourselves, seeking to make us “miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), is by promoting the idea that our thoughts control us rather than that we can control our thoughts. This, of course, is a great deception.

So how can we overpower undesirable thoughts?"

___________

And Boyd Packer - Stage of the mind

“The mind is like a stage. Except when we are asleep the curtain is always up. There is always some act being performed on that stage. It may be a comedy, a tragedy, interesting or dull, good or bad; but always there is some act playing on the stage of the mind.

Have you noticed that without any real intent on your part, in the middle of almost any performance, a shady little thought may creep in from the wings and attract your attention? These delinquent thoughts will try to upstage everybody.

If you permit them to go on, all thoughts of any virtue will leave the stage. You will be left, because you consented to it, to the influence of unrighteous thoughts.

If you yield to them, they will enact for you on the stage of your mind anything to the limits of your toleration. They may enact a theme of bitterness, jealousy, or hatred. It may be vulgar, immoral, even depraved.

When they have the stage, if you let them, they will devise the most clever persuasions to hold your attention. They can make it interesting all right, even convince you that it is innocent—for they are but thoughts.

What do you do at a time like that, when the stage of your mind is commandeered by the imps of unclean thinking?—whether they be the gray ones that seem almost clean or the filthy ones which leave no room for doubt.

If you can control your thoughts, you can overcome habits, even degrading personal habits. If you can learn to master them you will have a happy life.”

If these come on without any real intent, where do they come from? They come from the natural mind, right? They come from the body, the brain as opposed to the spiritual mind, is that not right?

____________

Christa Skousen:

“Although it is normal to have negative thoughts once in awhile, it is what you decide to do about those feelings that will ultimately make the difference. Allowing those negative thoughts to reside will dampen your feelings of self-worth.”

________________

And think about where the thought to eat food comes from when you are trying to fast. Is that your spirit thinking evil thoughts or the brain (the natural mind) or is it one in the same that flips back and forth between types of thoughts?

If I get angry driving down the road and someone cuts me off but I don't let the thought take hold and I don't act out the thought, it is simply passing within seconds and then controlled, where did the original thought of anger come from, my brain or my spirit? If it is my spirit then I should repent every time the thought "the shady little thought" as Packer puts it, pops into my head or only if I let it take hold? Do the "shady little thoughts" come from the brain or from the spirit or can we even separate the two?

[ElectofGod]

I have been thinking about this. I can come back and quote a few scriptures but for the moment The mind is our bodies mind, our hearts are our souls, the spirit. When our minds connect with the heart (soul) the flesh and soul become one. Thus our souls, if obedience is given to that spirit, is than in tune with the Holy Spirit or the mind of God. Our spirit communicates to the Holy Spirit or mind of God. Thus our minds can communicate to the heart or our spirits or the mind of God or Truth. Once we become purified this connection is not just temporary, or occasionally, or frequently but as the sacrament prayer states. ALWAYS.

If you read the scriptures, the Lord will usually tell you in your Mind and Heart. Satan will only tell you in your mind (our bodies). Satan cannot know the intents of our hearts. Why is that?

This is the first time I have had any opinion on this or stated it or even thought about it completely. So If anything is false feel free to let me know.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have been thinking about this. I can come back and quote a few scriptures but for the moment The mind is our bodies mind, our hearts are our souls, the spirit. When our minds connect with the heart (soul) the flesh and soul become one. Thus our souls, if obedience is given to that spirit, is than in tune with the Holy Spirit or the mind of God. Our spirit communicates to the Holy Spirit or mind of God. Thus our minds can communicate to the heart or our spirits or the mind of God or Truth. Once we become purified this connection is not just temporary, or occasionally, or frequently but as the sacrament prayer states. ALWAYS.

If you read the scriptures, the Lord will usually tell you in your Mind and Heart. Satan will only tell you in your mind (our bodies). Satan cannot know the intents of our hearts. Why is that?

This is the first time I have had any opinion on this or stated it or even thought about it completely. So If anything is false feel free to let me know.

I would say my thoughts are exactly how you stated it. I think about it whenever we partake of the sacrament as we are taking on His flesh and blood. The putting off the natural man is a very real one, a literal struggle to put off the natural drives of the carnal brain. And I agree with Satan working through the body, the brain. Thanks.

[ElectofGod]

So here is a question I had during the plan of salvation lesson. Are we here to learn how to "subject" OUR body or here to learn to "use our spirits" to subject A body? Otherwards, do our expierences change the soul (which I know our souls are enlarged) or is the body which we will have through all eternity also be changed? Or do we just get a body that is made celestial because our spirits have changed to be able to endure the glory of a celestial glory, even a fulness thereof?

Not to get off topic.

[Anddenex]

I would promote that we have only one mind, our intelligence, however this one mind is weakened by the natural tendencies of the flesh, or strengthened by turning to God.

I would promote our dual nature is also of one mind, which has been given knowledge of "good and evil."

We were born innocent, without the knowledge of either "good or evil" in our hearts. Our ultimate test is which enticing do we give heed, that which comes from God, by the spirit, or through the devil tempting us to follow the instinctive and natural tendencies of all bodies of flesh.

Which temptation, or enticing, does our single mind, our single intelligence, entertain? The natural mind is "acted upon" by circumstance and circumstance dictates the action, right or wrong is meaningless as long as the self is preserved. Thus, this type of mind can be associated with darkness, loathsome, idolatrous, lasciviousness, and so on.

The spiritual mind is a mind that "acts" and circumstances do not dictate the outcome of his or her choice. Right and wrong become imperative to the spiritual progression of the individual. This is the mind that is associated with their true heritage -- light and truth.

[ElectofGod]

I agree partially with anndex but I think there is a separation (the elements - things acted upon, and the soul -created to act). Were we not also "obedient" in the pre-existence before ever having a body? there was no mind of the body. It did not exist. We were a spiritual body which communicates (is one with) the intelligence or the self awareness of self.

We have some part of the intelligence or spiritual body that can be disobedient too. Than we get a body to which makes things worse. Though perhaps the body helps the spirit gain greater control (obedience, through enlargement).

Perhaps our spirits are the same without the body or with, and it comes down to only receiving a body to defend off darkness (Joseph smith). I really don't know how ti works.

[Finrock]

ElectofGod quoted a portion of Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 in another thread and I was reading in vol. 6 some more sermoning by Heber C. Kimball and he says this about the mind:

I will refer to brother Morley's words. He says, “The mind makes the man.” That is true. What is the mind? It is that character that was made and fashioned after the image of God before these bodies were made—that is, our spirits. What is the mind? It is the spirit that was made before this body. Do you know it? Well, now let me tell you, it is that spirit that makes the man. I care not how humble he is—if his nose is three feet long and all his body was disfigured—I will tell you, if there is a good spirit in that man, and that spirit cultivates wholesome doctrine and lives to God, you love him. It is the spirit that is in the man that makes the man, which is the mind that you were speaking of, father Morley. You meant so, did you not, father Morley? [“Yes.”] Well, you did.

Well, our change from this state of existence does not change our character. The character must be made and formed before it goes through the veil, if he is going to continue with the servants of God, the Prophets.

Now, brethren, you have got a spirit in you, and that spirit was created and organized—was born and begotten by our Father and our God before we ever took these bodies; and these bodies were formed by him, and through him, and of him, just as much as the spirit was; for I will tell you, he commenced and brought forth spirits; and then, when he completed that work, he commenced and brought forth tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. I came through him, both spirit and body. God made the elements that they are made of, just as much as he made anything. Tell me the first thing that is made on earth that God did not organize and place here in this world. Not a thing.

Well, it is the mind or spirit that is in the man that makes the man. Was that spirit a wicked spirit when it was organized and brought into existence? No—no more than our little children are sinners. But we have been led—that is, perverted, or rather led away from these true principles—led into evil principles by others. Well, then, of course, we are not exactly as we were when we were organized. No; we have taken other men's books and reasonings, and fell into other principles—led away from nature—some say, “nature's darkness.” I do not know anything about such a thing as nature's darkness. If we were as we were in our first creation, we should be as innocent as little children, every one of us. Perhaps you do not see these things as I do; but I have not any notion of my own to communicate unto you" (JoD, Vol. 6, p. 31).

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would promote that we have only one mind, our intelligence, however this one mind is weakened by the natural tendencies of the flesh, or strengthened by turning to God.

I would promote our dual nature is also of one mind, which has been given knowledge of "good and evil."

We were born innocent, without the knowledge of either "good or evil" in our hearts. Our ultimate test is which enticing do we give heed, that which comes from God, by the spirit, or through the devil tempting us to follow the instinctive and natural tendencies of all bodies of flesh.

Which temptation, or enticing, does our single mind, our single intelligence, entertain? The natural mind is "acted upon" by circumstance and circumstance dictates the action, right or wrong is meaningless as long as the self is preserved. Thus, this type of mind can be associated with darkness, loathsome, idolatrous, lasciviousness, and so on.

The spiritual mind is a mind that "acts" and circumstances do not dictate the outcome of his or her choice. Right and wrong become imperative to the spiritual progression of the individual. This is the mind that is associated with their true heritage -- light and truth.

So, a dream (not talking about the inspirational vision type - just a regular dream) that one would have about something evil, like if one were to have a dream about an affair, is that the spirit making that up or the brain?

If it is the spirit, the one mind you suggest, then a dream of that sorts should require repentance for such a thought. Right?

The other option is that the human brain can create thoughts, stories, fill in the blanks and change perception, as well as wants and drives, thus a "natural mind" of its own initiative. It is only when we start to list to obey that force that it becomes part of the spirit.

If a person who has OCD or even a condition like Tourette's thinks or repeats a cuss word over and over, is that the spirit - one mind you talk of, or is that emanating from the natural mind?

[Anddenex]

So, a dream (not talking about the inspirational vision type - just a regular dream) that one would have about something evil, like if one were to have a dream about an affair, is that the spirit making that up or the brain?

Without the spirit our brains would not be as functional as they are. I understand dreams are typically a direct result of our personal thoughts, either thoughts from our youth, or thoughts as adults. Thus the more clean our thoughts, our actions, our lives, then the less likely we will have "evil" dreams, as you call them.

However, some dreams, are random aspects of our lives, a hog posh of all our individual thoughts: flying, then swimming, then jumping a mile, while doing hundreds of flips in the air, a dog biting you, a falling and crashing, etc....

If it is the spirit, the one mind you suggest, then a dream of that sorts should require repentance for such a thought. Right?

No. Repentance should be the result of our active thoughts. Dreams, as to my understanding, represent our active thoughts. Correlation, how kids and adults experience nightmares after viewing a scary movie. My wife doesn't watch anything scary, she can't even handle CSI, without having nightmares the following night.

If a person who has OCD or even a condition like Tourette's thinks or repeats a cuss word over and over, is that the spirit - one mind you talk of, or is that emanating from the natural mind?

I wasn't sure where you were going with the question, thus I can now more elaborate my thoughts. We have one mind, our intelligence, without our intelligence (spirit) our brains produce nothing -- they die.

The temporal brain cannot exist without the spirit, but the spirit is able to exist without the brain.

Our spirits and our brain form a symbiotic relationship. I taught seminary to special needs children and for a time wondered if this was really necessary, and then the spirit taught me, though they are unable to speak what they know due to the handicap of their body, their brain, their mind, is learning (2 Nephi 31: 3).

I believe however, these two are different questions. We have "one mind," which is enticed by one or the other, carnal vs. spiritual. When the mind gives into a carnal desire we consider this to be a carnal mind, and when the mind acts in accordance with light and truth we call this a spiritual mind. They are still the same mind.

Our brain, our genetics, may affect how our intelligence is able to act in this world, but the mind remains "one mind."

Edited May 31, 2013 by Anddenex

[Upcountry]

Seems what Brother Kimball says above is (I have added a few extra thoughts):

1) Everything was created as a spirit and was initially innocent;

2) As we progressed as spirits, we developed personalities. we matured into self-aware beings;

3) By the time of the The Father presented the Plan of Salvation, we were responsible for our choices;

4) The first choice of consequence was whether to follow Lucifer. Those who did became demons sent to earth without bodies to be lead by Lucifer, now Satan;

5) We are those who did not follow Satan. We came to earth with bodies. At birth, we still have their own personal tendencies to be selfless or selfish, full of love or full of pride, etc. i.e., our personalities;

6) We are born innocent because we have not committed "sin" on earth but our personalities remain though our memories are covered by the veil.

7) When we are old enough, we become accountable for our actions. Depending on our tendencies, we are more susceptible to a path of love or a path that hurts others. We have been given agency to choose.

8) On earth, our actions matter because they are physical - not merely spiritual;

9) At any time until judgement, we may change our path. However, our memories remain.

10) At the judgement, the veil is removed. We will remember everything.

11) Then we will know that God is loving, merciful, and just.

I think Brother Kimball's words are beautiful. Thank you.

[Anddenex]

I agree partially with anndex but I think there is a separation (the elements - things acted upon, and the soul -created to act). Were we not also "obedient" in the pre-existence before ever having a body? there was no mind of the body. It did not exist. We were a spiritual body which communicates (is one with) the intelligence or the self awareness of self.

I think it better said, there was no "brain" of the body, not there was no "mind." Our intelligence is our mind, our thought, our source for all intelligence and glory.

If we had no "mind" then how did we choose to be with God or with Satan? Mind and intelligence are one in the same.

Perhaps our spirits are the same without the body or with, and it comes down to only receiving a body to defend off darkness (Joseph smith). I really don't know how ti works.

Welcome to the club. :)

[Upcountry]

Perhaps the spirit must act through the mind (the same meaning as brain).

What should we think of a good person whose physical mind has been ravaged by Alzheimer disease?

Surely the spirit remains good. but the actions are affected by the perceptions of the diseased physical mind. I would say the person is no longer accountable: the spirit is isolated without control.

But the spirit rules action of the body and has responsibility as long as it can get through the fog of the mine. The body connects the thoughts of the spirit with this earthly world and allows action.

The body seems to be ruled by the spirit through the physical mind. The physical mind and body impose limits on the spirit and bring concepts like lust and hunger to the attention of the spirit. How our spirit handles these is just another part of the test.

Before Lucifer's plea, there was no evil as we know it. All we had was our personalities, the ability to choose, and the agency to be responsible and thus bear the consequences.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Without the spirit our brains would not be as functional as they are. I understand dreams are typically a direct result of our personal thoughts, either thoughts from our youth, or thoughts as adults. Thus the more clean our thoughts, our actions, our lives, then the less likely we will have "evil" dreams, as you call them.

However, some dreams, are random aspects of our lives, a hog posh of all our individual thoughts: flying, then swimming, then jumping a mile, while doing hundreds of flips in the air, a dog biting you, a falling and crashing, etc....

No. Repentance should be the result of our active thoughts. Dreams, as to my understanding, represent our active thoughts. Correlation, how kids and adults experience nightmares after viewing a scary movie. My wife doesn't watch anything scary, she can't even handle CSI, without having nightmares the following night.

I wasn't sure where you were going with the question, thus I can now more elaborate my thoughts. We have one mind, our intelligence, without our intelligence (spirit) our brains produce nothing -- they die.

The temporal brain cannot exist without the spirit, but the spirit is able to exist without the brain.

Our spirits and our brain form a symbiotic relationship. I taught seminary to special needs children and for a time wondered if this was really necessary, and then the spirit taught me, though they are unable to speak what they know due to the handicap of their body, their brain, their mind, is learning (2 Nephi 31: 3).

I believe however, these two are different questions. We have "one mind," which is enticed by one or the other, carnal vs. spiritual. When the mind gives into a carnal desire we consider this to be a carnal mind, and when the mind acts in accordance with light and truth we call this a spiritual mind. They are still the same mind.

Our brain, our genetics, may affect how our intelligence is able to act in this world, but the mind remains "one mind."

Our dreams are not only a hog posh of things in our past but they also entail things that are made up. They are not just pieces of recordings of past experiences. They are of things imaginative and fictitious. The brain is good about adding perception where none is there. The blind spot for example is an area of the visual field where no actual visual information is coming in but the brain fills in the hole with assumed information. Our brain anticipates situations that are not actual, it can imagine, for example, I can imagine if I fall from a tall ladder I am going to hurt myself even if I am not actually falling at the time and so my heart rate goes up and I get a little tremulous in anticipation.

When a person is dreaming, if one sprays a little water on their face, they suddenly dream they are swimming or on a boat etc. What entity made up that idea that the person is on the boat? The spirit or the brain? The person is unconscious at that moment and yet an idea is made. A perception is spontaneously generated.

What I am getting at is the question of where does the thought that Elder Packer talked about coming from? ; "the shady little thought" that "creeps in from the wings"... "without any real intent on your part"

Would you say that the shady little thought that creeps in from the wings without any real intent is still an intended thought from the "one" mind? Or can there be thoughts generated by the brain?

When a person is totally drunk or coming off of anesthesia and acting like a fool at least not acting like their self, you mean to say those actions are generated by the spirit only?

What about a diencephalic seizure - a seizure associated with sudden fear? Or night terrors?

I agree that the brain cannot be a "mind" in the sense that it cannot be accountable for it's actions so therefore it cannot be something that "acts" or chooses or is what we consider to be an "intelligence" just like we would not consider a computer or a robot to be something that is accountable. But a robot and a computer can still act, even though they are things that are acted upon. Or when the Earth decides to quake and pull down a city swallowing thousands of people killing them, I don't think we would hold the Earth responsible or accountable even though there was action, it is not something we would say acts, it is acted upon but still has independent action.

The hardest thing to separate as far as things that act versus things that are acted upon, though, is the human brain. That is the most complex "natural" thing in the world. But it is still of this world, it is corrupt and carnal. It does not just sit there and do nothing! I think that thought totally under appreciates the value of the brain to our being. There are some things in which a computer is better suited for than doing it "by hand". If I had to make numerous calculations in a short period of time I would rather have a computer do it than me doing it by hand. Likewise, the brain is a tool of interesting use that we don't fully understand. I wouldn't say it sits there and does nothing other than pass on what the spirit tells it to do. I think that idea misrepresents its purpose.

When I drive to my friends house, semantics allow me to say "I drove to my friends house" but it is understood that I did not personally generate the movements that propelled my body to my destination. I cannot claim that I did it myself, even though those are the words we use. Likewise, I think we say "the mind" as a combination of effort from both the brain and the spirit but we really do not comprehend the relative contributions from each in any given thought. This is why we are completely incapable of judging, we cannot see the inner man. If there is only "one" there is no difference between the outer and the inner, they are one in the same.

[Upcountry]

Matter is not absolutely predictable; that is, its path cannot be absolutely be defined. Every so often, there is random, unexpected occurrence. If that occurs in DNA as a cell divides, cancer may develop. That is no one's fault.

Since spirit is just a finer type of matter, this unpredictability may also be a spiritual property. It could be the origin of free agency. Once self awareness sets in, the spirit assumes control.

[Anddenex]

Our dreams are not only a hog posh of things in our past but they also entail things that are made up. They are not just pieces of recordings of past experiences. They are of things imaginative and fictitious. The brain is good about adding perception where none is there. The blind spot for example is an area of the visual field where no actual visual information is coming in but the brain fills in the hole with assumed information. Our brain anticipates situations that are not actual, it can imagine, for example, I can imagine if I fall from a tall ladder I am going to hurt myself even if I am not actually falling at the time and so my heart rate goes up and I get a little tremulous in anticipation.

When a person is dreaming, if one sprays a little water on their face, they suddenly dream they are swimming or on a boat etc. What entity made up that idea that the person is on the boat? The spirit or the brain? The person is unconscious at that moment and yet an idea is made. A perception is spontaneously generated.

I think dreams are fascinating in the sense that they are directly associated with our sight, what we view, what we see, what we smell, etc... I have often wondered whether or not a blind man dreams (images) or when he/she enters into a dream state if their dreams are just filled with emotions (fear, joy, maybe touch because they can touch, hate).

All I know, every dream I have experienced is in direct correlation with something I have seen, felt, touched, smell and taste (the five senses). In light of this, I would say dreams are a process of unconscious thoughts I have experienced, or have desired to experience.

What I am getting at is the question of where does the thought that Elder Packer talked about coming from? ; "the shady little thought" that "creeps in from the wings"... "without any real intent on your part"

Would you say that the shady little thought that creeps in from the wings without any real intent is still an intended thought from the "one" mind? Or can there be thoughts generated by the brain?

I believe these "shady little thought" come from two sources: the adversary who is able to tempt us and our personal desires.

In answer to the first question, I don't believe little thoughts that creep in from the adversary are a result of our mind. The adversary knows us well enough and is able to sly tempt our heart and mind to follow a carnal path. I don't believe I have any thoughts generated solely from my brain.

Schizophrenics, are these thoughts from their brain or are they being tempted by spirits, adversarial spirits, more than you and I? I don't know, but God does, that's for sure. :)

When a person is totally drunk or coming off of anesthesia and acting like a fool at least not acting like their self, you mean to say those actions are generated by the spirit only?

They are generated from the result of an inhibited mind, yes a single mind. As a result of a personal choice they have placed themselves in a situation that they don't care what other think and speak their mind because of their inability to fully function correctly.

What about a diencephalic seizure - a seizure associated with sudden fear? Or night terrors?

Night terrors are related to some traumatic event within a person's living experiences. These experiences may have been a result from a traumatic injury to the brain, a very frightful experience, or by some other experience in a person's life.

I believe my mentioning of special needs children also answers this question. Our brain and our intelligence enter into a symbiotic relationship. They effect one another and our personal interactions with life.

I found an article very interesting about a young girl who was "autistic" or had some brain dysfunction that caused her to act out with spasms. Her brain inhibited her from normal interactions, however one day the parents and doctors discovered, although her brain would cause spasms to her muscles, and she couldn't speak, she was actually learning. They were able to give her a laptop by which she would type her thoughts. She was hearing people the whole time, her parents especially, call her dumb, retarded. Her spirit was very active, her intelligence was very active, despite her brain dysfunction. Was a very interesting article.

Likewise, the brain is a tool of interesting use that we don't fully understand. I wouldn't say it sits there and does nothing other than pass on what the spirit tells it to do. I think that idea misrepresents its purpose.

I agree we definitely don't fully understand the workings of our brain, however, remove the spirit from the body and then tell me how functional you think our brains would be without our spirits within them? I don't believe they will be very functional at all.

When I drive to my friends house, semantics allow me to say "I drove to my friends house" but it is understood that I did not personally generate the movements that propelled my body to my destination. I cannot claim that I did it myself, even though those are the words we use. Likewise, I think we say "the mind" as a combination of effort from both the brain and the spirit but we really do not comprehend the relative contributions from each in any given thought. This is why we are completely incapable of judging, we cannot see the inner man. If there is only "one" there is no difference between the outer and the inner, they are one in the same.

I am unsure what you mean by "I cannot claim I did it myself," because that is exactly what you did, you did it yourself.

The interaction between your spirit, and the brain, and the body's interaction with the brain allowed you to drive your friend.

A person whose body doesn't interacted with the brain, is incapable of driving safely any friend to their house.

I would disagree, we only have one mind, unless we are "legion" in the bible who had been possessed by many spirits, then there were multiple minds fighting for the same brain and body.

There is a difference between my brain and my spirit, my intelligence. The brain interacts with my intelligence and in turn the brain then interacts with my body. Without the spirit, the brain would be a blob of organic material incapable of sending any message to the body. Unless, you know of a brain that is fully functional without a spirit?

[Upcountry]

There is a difference between my brain and my spirit, my intelligence. The brain interacts with my intelligence and in turn the brain then interacts with my body. Without the spirit, the brain would be a blob of organic material incapable of sending any message to the body. Unless, you know of a brain that is fully functional without a spirit?

Its called a computer. Watson was a recent example.

[james12]

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; ....I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. (Joseph Smith, King Follete Discourse)

Note carefully the words. The "mind" or "intelligence" which man posses is eternal. Not the spirit in it's entirety nor the body, but the mind.

Now before coming here we gained a spirit body. With it, the light of Christ which can never be taken from us, though it can be dimmed. Intelligence housed in a glorified spirit obtains light, knowledge, and joy. Now take our spirit and house it in a glorified body and we will obtain a fullness of joy. There is not one mind that is intelligence, another mind that is spirit, and yet another mind of the body. There is only one and it is co-equal with God. By it we live and move and have our being. Without it we are nothing.

The body in and of itself is not evil, instead it is a marvelous tool which magnifies our spirit and deepens and expands our feelings and emotions. God placed our spirit in our body. However, while here on earth the hosts of Satan have also been given special influence over the body. Through the body they influence our thoughts. They whisper thoughts to us which distort the use of the body to evil ends.

In time long since past we used our mind and tuned our spirit to God. If we yield to the Lord's spirit which is in us we will overcome the hosts of Satan who also desire to posses our body. If we yield to the evil one we will lose control of our body and darken our spirit.

Edited June 1, 2013 by james12

[Anddenex]

Its called a computer. Watson was a recent example.

Really?

[Upcountry]

Sorry about that. Yes, it was a flippant answer.

But, Watson did beat the best humans at Jeopardy and there was a program that beat a grand master at chess once.

The CAPTCHA Program: Telling Humans and Computers Apart Automatically software program does it now.

However, in 100 years, computers will be able to beat us at everything and we will not be able to tell them apart (a theme of science fiction). That is one of the reasons I regard this time as the Latter Days.

Sorry again,

Upcountry

[Traveler]

From other discussions, we have recently talked about the influence of our body verses the spirit. Knowing that we are dual beings with contrasting natures, as David O. Mckay puts it, is there a separation of "mind" between the "natural mind" and the "spiritual mind"? In other words, are those two separate systems or are they one system that flips back and forth between being natural and sometimes spiritual?

Some other quotes to stimulate thought about this question;

D&C 67: "10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind."

It seems that the natural mind and the veil go hand in hand.

____

Bruce Fordham

"

Do you ever feel as though your thoughts control you—not the other way around? It doesn’t have to be that way.

Perhaps it’s a familiar scenario: a child repeatedly opens a cupboard door even though you have told her—several times—to stop. A field goal kicker misses the goal even when he has thought to himself, “Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it. Don’t miss it.” Or perhaps you eat a piece of chocolate cake even though in passing through the kitchen, you tell yourself, “Don’t eat that.”

Why does this happen?

Think about how you respond to a negative or inappropriate thought that comes into your mind, either as a result of unhealthy thought patterns or simply because you are a natural man or woman (see Mosiah 3:19; D&C 67:12). Perhaps you reprimand yourself. Or maybe you repeatedly tell yourself to stop thinking about that subject. In the case of the first response, you unwittingly weaken your resistance to such thoughts and lower your sense of self-worth and confidence. With the second response, you unknowingly give energy and strength to the undesirable thought by repeating its image. This occurs because our brains are unable to replace something with nothing. When there is not another thought or activity to replace a negative one, the thought to open the cupboard or miss the field goal or eat the cake takes root because of the image’s repetition in the vulnerable mind.

Of course, missing a field goal or having a piece of chocolate cake aren’t evil, but these examples of how our minds work hold true in cases where thoughts are inappropriate. We know that one of the ways Satan influences us to work against ourselves, seeking to make us “miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), is by promoting the idea that our thoughts control us rather than that we can control our thoughts. This, of course, is a great deception.

So how can we overpower undesirable thoughts?"

___________

And Boyd Packer - Stage of the mind

“The mind is like a stage. Except when we are asleep the curtain is always up. There is always some act being performed on that stage. It may be a comedy, a tragedy, interesting or dull, good or bad; but always there is some act playing on the stage of the mind.

Have you noticed that without any real intent on your part, in the middle of almost any performance, a shady little thought may creep in from the wings and attract your attention? These delinquent thoughts will try to upstage everybody.

If you permit them to go on, all thoughts of any virtue will leave the stage. You will be left, because you consented to it, to the influence of unrighteous thoughts.

If you yield to them, they will enact for you on the stage of your mind anything to the limits of your toleration. They may enact a theme of bitterness, jealousy, or hatred. It may be vulgar, immoral, even depraved.

When they have the stage, if you let them, they will devise the most clever persuasions to hold your attention. They can make it interesting all right, even convince you that it is innocent—for they are but thoughts.

What do you do at a time like that, when the stage of your mind is commandeered by the imps of unclean thinking?—whether they be the gray ones that seem almost clean or the filthy ones which leave no room for doubt.

If you can control your thoughts, you can overcome habits, even degrading personal habits. If you can learn to master them you will have a happy life.”

If these come on without any real intent, where do they come from? They come from the natural mind, right? They come from the body, the brain as opposed to the spiritual mind, is that not right?

____________

Christa Skousen:

“Although it is normal to have negative thoughts once in awhile, it is what you decide to do about those feelings that will ultimately make the difference. Allowing those negative thoughts to reside will dampen your feelings of self-worth.”

________________

And think about where the thought to eat food comes from when you are trying to fast. Is that your spirit thinking evil thoughts or the brain (the natural mind) or is it one in the same that flips back and forth between types of thoughts?

If I get angry driving down the road and someone cuts me off but I don't let the thought take hold and I don't act out the thought, it is simply passing within seconds and then controlled, where did the original thought of anger come from, my brain or my spirit? If it is my spirit then I should repent every time the thought "the shady little thought" as Packer puts it, pops into my head or only if I let it take hold? Do the "shady little thoughts" come from the brain or from the spirit or can we even separate the two?

How do you know if your particular perception and understanding in this matter is coming from your corrupted physical brain or your pure truth spiritual mind?

The Traveler

[Martain]

It was only after writing much that I realized that Anddenex had already said much of what I wanted to say =). Still, there are a few things I felt to keep and add to the discussion.

Shall I upon death loose any of my faculties for thought and reason? Perish the thought! (what a wonderful pun <-- turned out to be!)

If I shall retain such faculties then I must admit that the basis for such faculties comes from and is possessed by the spirit.

Is not the natural man a spirit which being placed within a mortal tabernacle and beyond the age of accountability, regardless of whether or not they still possess said physical body, which has not yet yielded unto the Spirit of the Lord and become as a little child?

A being with an immortal spirit body is called a spirit. Add such to a mortal physical body and you get man. If you remove the spirit from a physical body, the physical body is no longer a man.

The natural man is an enemy to God. If the natural man is the physical body, then the body would remain an enemy to God even when it does not house an immortal spirit. Since the body is not an enemy to God in such a state, the physical body itself is not the natural man.

Upon entrance to the spirit world is there no loner any need to put off the natural man and yield to the enticing of the Spirit of the Lord? If there is such a need, then the physical body is not the natural man.

Our body is a priceless gift from God. If we call the physical body alone the natural carnal man and an enemy with God do we not wage war upon ourselves instead of against the devil and thus make a scape goat by which to point the finger to?

Being tempted by the devil itself is not a sin, yielding to temptation is. Christ was tempted in all ways that we are tempted both directly by the adversary and by thoughts from the adversary just as he tempts us. It is when we let such thoughts take hold and entertain us that it becomes a thought sin.

Dreams do not only come from the Lord or of our own making but also come from the devil. What, is false revelation only possible during the day time now =)?

If an evil dream like you describe is of your own making, or to the degree that it is of your own making, then it will owe it's creation from sins of either thought or deed while awake. As such the dream itself is not what needs repentance but the deeds which spawned it.

If an evil dream like you describe is not of your own making, or to the degree that it is not of your own making, then it is not a sin but a temptation. Since temptation is not of itself a sin, then why would such a dream be?

Sincerely,

Brother M.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Martain

[Praetorian_Brow]

Intent determines sin, not a natural or spiritual state. The oft quoted phrase; The natural man is an enemy to God; seems obvious in its intent of illustrating the divide between the two states, although if one was to think about it, one can't exist without the other, if one is to gain what is promised. Rejecting one for the other only seems to further our ignorance of mastery. In order to progress, both states are required to be mastered, but mastery only comes through opposition and then unity is achieved, which is the objective.

[Seminarysnoozer]

In light of this, I would say dreams are a process of unconscious thoughts I have experienced, or have desired to experience.

I believe these "shady little thought" come from two sources: the adversary who is able to tempt us and our personal desires.

I don't believe I have any thoughts generated solely from my brain.

Night terrors are related to some traumatic event within a person's living experiences. These experiences may have been a result from a traumatic injury to the brain, a very frightful experience, or by some other experience in a person's life.

I would disagree, we only have one mind, unless we are "legion" in the bible who had been possessed by many spirits, then there were multiple minds fighting for the same brain and body.

There is a difference between my brain and my spirit, my intelligence. The brain interacts with my intelligence and in turn the brain then interacts with my body. Without the spirit, the brain would be a blob of organic material incapable of sending any message to the body. Unless, you know of a brain that is fully functional without a spirit?

What do you mean the "brain interacts with my intelligence"? This seems to go against everything else that you are saying. You, in so many words, seem to be saying that the flow of thought is only in one direction, from spirit to brain and not the other way around. If one strictly believes that the flow of thought can only be from spirit to brain, then one would have to say that every time someone has a carnal thought that it started with the spirit and therefore we would be responsible for every thought we ever had in this life.

That would mean that you think that experiences like that of Charles Whitman "I do not quite understand what it is that compels me to type this letter. Perhaps it is to leave some vague reason for the actions I have recently performed. I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts." come from the spirit and not his brain. So, the 17 murders and his wife and mother were all generated by the spirit mind despite him having a tumor and vascular lesion around the amygdala. Which brings me to ask, if the spirit is the source of all thought, why then does the amygdala exist, that generates the fight and flight response and responsible for anger response. If it is all the spirit generating anger etc. there would be no reason for such an organ that if directly electrically stimulated could produce the response of anger. You would maybe like to say that the electrical current somehow affected the spirit that then told the brain what to experience?

"When a surgeon sends an electrical current into the brain, the person can have a vivid, lifelike experience. When chemicals seep into the brain, they can alter the person’s perception, mood, personality, and reasoning. When a patch of brain tissue dies, a part of the mind can disappear: a neurological patient may lose the ability to name tools, recognize faces, anticipate the outcome of his behaviour, empathize with others, or keep in mind a region of space or of his own body… Every emotion and thought gives off physical signals, and the new technologies for detecting them are so accurate that they can literally read a person’s mind and tell a cognitive neuroscientist whether the person is imagining a face or a place. Neuroscientists can knock a gene out of a mouse (a gene also found in humans) and prevent the mouse from learning, or insert extra copies and make the mouse learn faster. Under the microscope, brain tissue shows a staggering complexity—a hundred billion neurons connected by a hundred trillion synapses—that is commensurate with the staggering complexity of human thought and experience… " (Pinker, 2003).

M. Russell Ballard; "Researchers tell us there is a mechanism in our brain called the pleasure center. 2 When activated by certain drugs or behaviors, it overpowers the part of our brain that governs our willpower, judgment, logic, and morality. This leads the addict to abandon what he or she knows is right. And when that happens, the hook is set and Lucifer takes control." Even Elder Ballard describes the brain as having function that governs our willpower, judgement, logic, and morality.

If there is no thought generated by brain, then there is no reason for the brain to contain neuronal pathways related to logic, emotion or memory. Why would the physical brain have such functions if not used. If the only source of logic and emotion and memory was from the spirit then the brain should not be able to produce such experiences by being electrically stimulated in those areas, such as what happens during a seizure. And before you claim that the person who has seizures have a diseased brain, realize that the area generating the seizure activity is not necessarily the area that leads to those sensations as the excitability of a seizure spreads to cause normal functioning brain to fire repeatedly.

You seriously don't believe in a brain that can imagine?

You are wrong about night terrors. Night terrors is a parasomnia in which a person is awoken out of slow wave sleep and remains in a half awake, half asleep state and has nothing to do with past traumatic experiences. What about REM sleep behavior disorder where a person believes someone is intruding into the house and he starts to fight off the intruder and act out the dream, punching his wife in the process even though the person has never been in an altercation or violent in any way during their life? Where did the idea that there is an intruder come from? The devil - come on, I know you don't believe that. It is stopped by a medication. Did the medication block the effects of the devil or just simply block some of the intrinsic properties of the brain?

[Seminarysnoozer]

If an evil dream like you describe is of your own making, or to the degree that it is of your own making, then it will owe it's creation from sins of either thought or deed while awake. As such the dream itself is not what needs repentance but the deeds which spawned it.

If an evil dream like you describe is not of your own making, or to the degree that it is not of your own making, then it is not a sin but a temptation. Since temptation is not of itself a sin, then why would such a dream be?

Sincerely,

Brother M.

Exactly, the dream is simply a temptation. And the deed that spawned it could simply be the deed of accepting the plan to Fall and become fallen and receive a fallen body for a short period of time. We agreed to be exposed to the temptations of this world for testing purposes. Why was the man born blind? Was it his sin or the sin of the parents?

The thoughts that enter the stage of our mind that are not good could simply be like being born blind, they are there so that we depend on the grace of our Lord to help us through such temptations. The bad thoughts don't have to be there because our spirit generated them.

If there is no separation from the drives of the spirit and the body then Christ would not have told the apostles that the spirit is willing but the body is weak. He would have just said 'your one mind is not willing'. Did the desire to sleep come from evil spirits implanting the temptation to the spirit directly? Or, did the temptation come via the body? If the temptation came through the spirit and they succumbed to the temptation then the spirit was not willing and the spirit was weak. But, likely (in my opinion) the influences of the body are greater than the spirit, not the other way around. This is why it is hard to walk down the straight and narrow. It takes a lot of 'watching and praying' to allow the spirit to overpower the body's influences, not the other way around. Then natural state is not one in which the spirit is more influential. The natural state is one in which the spirit is overpowered by carnal influences.

[Anddenex]

What do you mean the "brain interacts with my intelligence"? This seems to go against everything else that you are saying. You, in so many words, seem to be saying that the flow of thought is only in one direction, from spirit to brain and not the other way around. If one strictly believes that the flow of thought can only be from spirit to brain, then one would have to say that every time someone has a carnal thought that it started with the spirit and therefore we would be responsible for every thought we ever had in this life.

Nothing I have shared goes against anything I have written. I have shared, we have "one mind." Our mind interacts with our brain, they form a symbiotic relationship.

In scripture we are informed, Mosiah 4: 30, to watch our thoughts, words, and deeds for all these will be taken into account; thus, we are responsible for every thought "our spirit" instigates or entertains.

I would assume from your last statement in this section that you fully didn't read my posts. I clearly mentioned "carnal thoughts" will stem from the adversary, who is allowed to tempt and try us. Thus, we will not be held accountable for the thoughts the adversary places into our minds, unless we entertain them.

In relation to these answers, then your statement, "If one strictly believes....," would be incorrect.

That would mean that you think that experiences like that of Charles Whitman "I do not quite understand what it is that compels me to type this letter. Perhaps it is to leave some vague reason for the actions I have recently performed. I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts." come from the spirit and not his brain. So, the 17 murders and his wife and mother were all generated by the spirit mind despite him having a tumor and vascular lesion around the amygdala. Which brings me to ask, if the spirit is the source of all thought, why then does the amygdala exist, that generates the fight and flight response and responsible for anger response. If it is all the spirit generating anger etc. there would be no reason for such an organ that if directly electrically stimulated could produce the response of anger. You would maybe like to say that the electrical current somehow affected the spirit that then told the brain what to experience?

In relation to my previous statement, Whitman's 17 murders are no different than Cain who entertained the thought of killing Able, and then went through with it. Our spirits are innocent as we enter the world, and our spirits are effected by personal choice, by our upbringing, by our physical body and by the adversary.

M. Russell Ballard; "Researchers tell us there is a mechanism in our brain called the pleasure center. 2 When activated by certain drugs or behaviors, it overpowers the part of our brain that governs our willpower, judgment, logic, and morality. This leads the addict to abandon what he or she knows is right. And when that happens, the hook is set and Lucifer takes control." Even Elder Ballard describes the brain as having function that governs our willpower, judgement, logic, and morality.

Notice Elder Ballard mentions, "the addict abandon what he or she knows is right." Then Lucifer is able to take control as he did with Whitman and Cain, and many others.

You seriously don't believe in a brain that can imagine?

Nope, unless you can tell me of a brain that exists without a spirit and is able to imagine and use all of its neural pathways without a spirit?

You are wrong about night terrors. Night terrors is a parasomnia in which a person is awoken out of slow wave sleep and remains in a half awake, half asleep state and has nothing to do with past traumatic experiences. What about REM sleep behavior disorder where a person believes someone is intruding into the house and he starts to fight off the intruder and act out the dream, punching his wife in the process even though the person has never been in an altercation or violent in any way during their life? Where did the idea that there is an intruder come from? The devil - come on, I know you don't believe that. It is stopped by a medication. Did the medication block the effects of the devil or just simply block some of the intrinsic properties of the brain?

Yes, then tell that to my friend who experienced night terrors and by which the doctors specified his night terrors were triggered by past traumatic events in his childhood. As his home teaching companion, one of the first experiences they shared with me was how this is exactly what happened to him. The doctor confirmed night terrors. The doctor confirmed and explained to him they were a result of traumatic events in his childhood.

Are you wrong then?

Where did the idea of the intruder come from?

Ever watch TV? Ever listen to the news? One doesn't need to experience an intruder firsthand to have dreams about an intruder entering his/her home.

I have never experienced flying, but heck, I have thought about it many times and how wonderful it would be to fly and as a result of my thoughts I have had dreams of flying.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Anddenex