"Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

[Traveler]

How is it possible that people can be of "one mind" with G-d if as individuals they are not even of "one mine" themselves?

(See 1 Peter 3:8, Romans 15:6, Moses 7:18, Philippians 2:2, Doctrine and Covenants 45:65, 2 Corinthians 13:11)

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Nothing I have shared goes against anything I have written. I have shared, we have "one mind." Our mind interacts with our brain, they form a symbiotic relationship.

In scripture we are informed, Mosiah 4: 30, to watch our thoughts, words, and deeds for all these will be taken into account; thus, we are responsible for every thought "our spirit" instigates or entertains.

I would assume from your last statement in this section that you fully didn't read my posts. I clearly mentioned "carnal thoughts" will stem from the adversary, who is allowed to tempt and try us. Thus, we will not be held accountable for the thoughts the adversary places into our minds, unless we entertain them.

In relation to these answers, then your statement, "If one strictly believes....," would be incorrect.

In relation to my previous statement, Whitman's 17 murders are no different than Cain who entertained the thought of killing Able, and then went through with it. Our spirits are innocent as we enter the world, and our spirits are effected by personal choice, by our upbringing, by our physical body and by the adversary.

Notice Elder Ballard mentions, "the addict abandon what he or she knows is right." Then Lucifer is able to take control as he did with Whitman and Cain, and many others.

Nope, unless you can tell me of a brain that exists without a spirit and is able to imagine and use all of its neural pathways without a spirit?

Yes, then tell that to my friend who experienced night terrors and by which the doctors specified his night terrors were triggered by past traumatic events in his childhood. As his home teaching companion, one of the first experiences they shared with me was how this is exactly what happened to him. The doctor confirmed night terrors. The doctor confirmed and explained to him they were a result of traumatic events in his childhood.

Are you wrong then?

Ever watch TV? Ever listen to the news? One doesn't need to experience an intruder firsthand to have dreams about an intruder entering his/her home.

I have never experienced flying, but heck, I have thought about it many times and how wonderful it would be to fly and as a result of my thoughts I have had dreams of flying.

I have read your posts fully and I do appreciate the conversation. Thank you.

I don't disagree that the adversary is the source of all evil but that does not discount the possibility it is delivered via the brain. We have this corrupted body as a result of his temptations in the garden, so the brain generating imaginative and deceptive information is as a result of the Fall and therefore as a result of Satan's temptation. The effects of the Fall is what Our Savior overcomes for us.

So, you think Whitman's tumor or numerous other similar examples had nothing to do with the physical effects on areas of the brain that led to those actions?

Why do you fight the idea that direct electrical stimulation of the brain can cause spontaneous thought that has nothing to do with reality? You would have me believe that the spirit was affected by the electrical stimulation?

In the example of RBD (REM sleep behavior disorder) the person acts out dreams as to an intruder with which the person has to fight off. This is a very specific change in the theme of dreams that they didn't have before. The dreams are specific around that theme. In other words, the person can describe exactly how many people are coming in and what they did and why they had to act out in a violent way, not realizing they are punching or kicking their spouse. Or they injure their self by jumping out of the bed and running into a wall or out the window. They can be so violent that patients sometimes try to tie their self in bed at night to avoid the injuries. You think that has to be spirit driven and not the circuitry of the brain alone?

Why did Phineus Gage have a change in personality after taking a railroad spike through the frontal lobe? Because it injured the spirit? I don't think so. It was because that area of the brain relates to personality.

Are your traits here on Earth exactly how they were before coming here? Are there traits a person might have here that are just temporary characteristics given as part of their stewardship for this life. Like Moses having trouble speaking - that was a spirit thing or just a "thorn in the flesh"? So, he still has trouble speaking now that the mortal body is gone for him? Did my spirit have the trait of getting a dry mouth when I get nervous? Then where did that trait come from if not the brain's circuitry?

The definitions for Night Terrors is one that is accepted by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. Night Terrors is not a psychiatric diagnosis. Do people that have had traumatic experiences wake up more often at night? Yes, so therefore they are statistically more likely to have parasomnias but it is not a direct cause or a requirement for Night Terrors. Nightmares would be more common in people that have had traumatic experiences but not necessarily Night Terrors which comes out of slow wave sleep, not REM like nightmares do.

[Seminarysnoozer]

How is it possible that people can be of "one mind" with G-d if as individuals they are not even of "one mine" themselves?

(See 1 Peter 3:8, Romans 15:6, Moses 7:18, Philippians 2:2, Doctrine and Covenants 45:65, 2 Corinthians 13:11)

The Traveler

Great question! By putting off the natural man and through the help that the ordinances of the gospel provide. By sanctifying the body through righteous practices that subdue its natural tendencies. Will we be 100% effective in that effort? No, not in this life but the rest is provided by the resurrection with a perfected body and through the grace of Christ. We cannot overcome this body and the effects of the Fall by our self. The natural man is put off by being humble in realizing that fact, to be submissive and listen to the promptings of the spirit and turn to the Savior for help.

[Anddenex]

So, you think Whitman's tumor or numerous other similar examples had nothing to do with the physical effects on areas of the brain that led to those actions?

Nope. He is no different than Cain.

Why do you fight the idea that direct electrical stimulation of the brain can cause spontaneous thought that has nothing to do with reality? You would have me believe that the spirit was affected by the electrical stimulation?

Simple, there is no evidence or scriptural support to back the claim. You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. I am not having you believe anything. I simply don't agree with the premise that our brains gives us thoughts.

You still haven't answered my question, please tell me a brain that is able to give thought without a spirit? Remove the spirit, what happens to the brain? If you are able to prove to me, a brain that exists outside of a human body, that is producing thoughts on its own, then you have some sway, but without the spirit the brain is organic material that decays. The brain has no life without the spirit, no neural pathways, nothing.

In the example of RBD (REM sleep behavior disorder) the person acts out dreams as to an intruder with which the person has to fight off... You think that has to be spirit driven and not the circuitry of the brain alone?

Yes, I am familiar with this. My friend did not have nightmares he had night terrors which were a result from his youth and experiences from his youth. He had to sleep with a board between him and his wife until the night terrors were appropriately handled.

Why did Phineus Gage have a change in personality after taking a railroad spike through the frontal lobe? Because it injured the spirit? I don't think so. It was because that area of the brain relates to personality.

Same reason why children with down syndrome, brain damage, and other special needs. The spirit interacts with our brain, and if the brain isn't functioning then our spirits are physically bridled pertaining to their capability.

This is no different than how my uncle began to change while his mind, right before he passed, was having multiple tiny strokes. The doctors specified probably 100 to 1000 strokes in one day, tiny strokes.

Not sure where you are coming up with the rhetorical question, "Because it injured the spirit?"

Are your traits here on Earth exactly how they were before coming here? Are there traits a person might have here that are just temporary characteristics given as part of their stewardship for this life. Like Moses having trouble speaking - that was a spirit thing or just a "thorn in the flesh"? So, he still has trouble speaking now that the mortal body is gone for him? Did my spirit have the trait of getting a dry mouth when I get nervous? Then where did that trait come from if not the brain's circuitry?

Not sure why this would be relative to the brain being an additional mind. We all have weaknesses, and through our weaknesses we become humble and the Lord is able to overcome our weakness.

The scriptures are very interesting in how they present different ideas. In the Old Testament we learn Moses had a hard time speaking, however in the New Testament we learn Moses was very powerful with his words, Moses 7: 22, or as the scripture says, "mighty in words and in deeds." While within the body he was "mighty in words."

Edited June 4, 2013 by Anddenex

[Seminarysnoozer]

Same reason why children with down syndrome, brain damage, and other special needs. The spirit interacts with our brain, and if the brain isn't functioning then our spirits are physically bridled pertaining to their capability.

This is no different than how my uncle began to change while his mind, right before he passed, was having multiple tiny strokes. The doctors specified probably 100 to 1000 strokes in one day, tiny strokes.

Please explain what you mean by "physically bridled". Maybe we are talking about the same thing but using different words. Could it not be "bridled" with false information, imaginative perception, new made-up information? If you say 'yes' then we are talking about the same thing.

Simply take the blind spot. The brain makes up information as to what is in that spot. It is not actually picking up on any information but the brain perceives it as if there is information there. So the brain has made up visual information that simply comes from the circuits of the brain. Unless you think it is the spirit that fills in the hole of the blind spot.

Or when someone has phantom limb pain after losing a limb. There is no real information coming through but the brain still perceives information as if it could be there. Is that the spirit or the brain that is making up that information?

If a segment of the sensory cortex is electrically stimulated while the person is awake they feel a sensation as if it came from the corresponding area. But the information is not true, there was no stimulation of that corresponding area, simply electrical firings in the part of the brain that allows us to perceive that particular sense. So, what made up that sense, the brain or the spirit?

Sometimes people with seizures have auras. They might smell burning tires, for example, when there is no burning tires around. Even when the area of the brain that starts the seizure is not localized to the gustatory cortex, a person can still have those types of auras. In other words, that part of the brain is functioning normally but when the stimulatory effects of a local seizure focus make it fire the person perceives it as a certain sense, in this case a certain smell. So, is the made up information of the smell coming from the brain or the spirit?

As an intensive care nurse, I have personally witnessed many people who have "died" but the tissue is kept alive by artificial support. I have no way of proving it to you, of course. But family members of the patient, who I knew as being spiritually in tune and at least in one case was a Bishop have said the person has passed, the spirit has left the body. After, to harvest organs, we have to show death through various criteria including brain waves. I personally have witnessed two times where there was a leaving of the spirit from the body and brain waves were identified.

In college, I have done numerous labs with nerve tissue connected to various organs - eyes, muscle etc. Electrically or chemically stimulating the nerves produced normal signals making the muscle fire or recording visual information from the eye even though the animal was dead and dissected.

And here is an example where you might really have to take a stand; what about the individual who has same sex attraction? Does that attraction come from the spirit or the brain? If it is the spirit then you would have to say that their spirit was that way before coming here. That would be a very strong stance. Whereas in the model I am discussing and proposing (note - I didn't say believe - that is your claim of my words) it would be possible to have a set of attractions that are contrasting between the body and the spirit.

David O. Mckay; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit." ... "The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?3

Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”

In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul specifically enumerates the “works of the flesh,” as he calls them, and the “fruits of the Spirit.” Note this classification: The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ...."

As the prophet explains there are two contrasting natures, the physical and the spiritual as man is a dual being. It seems to me that when he says "appetites and desires of the physical man" he is not talking about desires that come from the spirit of man. They can become desires of the spirit when they are adopted as such over time but they are there even for those who don't give into them and who don't make it a part of their spirit.

If you feel hungry during a fast do you really desire to fast? If the apostles feel sleepy when their spirit wants to stay awake and watch and pray, was it the spirit that felt sleepy or was the spirit still willing even though the body drove the desire to sleep?

[Traveler]

Nope. He is no different than Cain.

Simple, there is no evidence or scriptural support to back the claim. You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. I am not having you believe anything. I simply don't agree with the premise that our brains gives us thoughts.

You still haven't answered my question, please tell me a brain that is able to give thought without a spirit? Remove the spirit, what happens to the brain? If you are able to prove to me, a brain that exists outside of a human body, that is producing thoughts on its own, then you have some sway, but without the spirit the brain is organic material that decays. The brain has no life without the spirit, no neural pathways, nothing.

Yes, I am familiar with this. My friend did not have nightmares he had night terrors which were a result from his youth and experiences from his youth. He had to sleep with a board between him and his wife until the night terrors were appropriately handled.

Same reason why children with down syndrome, brain damage, and other special needs. The spirit interacts with our brain, and if the brain isn't functioning then our spirits are physically bridled pertaining to their capability.

This is no different than how my uncle began to change while his mind, right before he passed, was having multiple tiny strokes. The doctors specified probably 100 to 1000 strokes in one day, tiny strokes.

Not sure where you are coming up with the rhetorical question, "Because it injured the spirit?"

Not sure why this would be relative to the brain being an additional mind. We all have weaknesses, and through our weaknesses we become humble and the Lord is able to overcome our weakness.

The scriptures are very interesting in how they present different ideas. In the Old Testament we learn Moses had a hard time speaking, however in the New Testament we learn Moses was very powerful with his words, Moses 7: 22, or as the scripture says, "mighty in words and in deeds." While within the body he was "mighty in words."

I agree. It seems to me that our brain serves two functions. It is the interface of our spirits to our body and thus the access of our spirit to the physical world around us and other individuals.

I think that our brain is also the veil by which our spirit has forgotten our pre-existance. It seem that our spirit's only access to functions and things is through our brain. It would seem there are some rare exceptions but it does seem to me that our spirit is blind except what is filtered through our brains.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

I think that our brain is also the veil by which our spirit has forgotten our pre-existance. It seem that our spirit's only access to functions and things is through our brain. It would seem there are some rare exceptions but it does seem to me that our spirit is blind except what is filtered through our brains.

The Traveler

Hmmm...now this is a thought for meditation, the veil being our brains. That is a thought that hasn't entered into my mind or heart.

[Traveler]

Hmmm...now this is a thought for meditation, the veil being our brains. That is a thought that hasn't entered into my mind or heart.

Well - it is there now. After you have mediated on that for a while - I would be interested in your ideas. Sort of a sanity check for me.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree. It seems to me that our brain serves two functions. It is the interface of our spirits to our body and thus the access of our spirit to the physical world around us and other individuals.

I think that our brain is also the veil by which our spirit has forgotten our pre-existance. It seem that our spirit's only access to functions and things is through our brain. It would seem there are some rare exceptions but it does seem to me that our spirit is blind except what is filtered through our brains.

The Traveler

Yeah! I am getting through!

Why is it not possible that some of the "functions" you speak of cannot be spontaneous thought, or the thought that creeps onto the stage or imagination or misconception?

Like driving a car that is pulling to left, it is only revealed by actually driving. The car sitting in the driveway is not pulling to the left. But once the driver gets in and drives then the action of pulling to the left is experienced and has to be counteracted to drive straight. The driver is not pulling to the left, the car is.

Just because a body without a spirit is dead doesn't mean it cannot have action of its own, or it cannot have "function" as you put it.

The actions of the body is "dead", that is why the body without the spirit is dead. Like faith without works is dead, they have to go hand in hand. But that does not mean that a person cannot have faith alone or faith without works. Faith without works is not nothing. It is something but it does not live, it does not go beyond this life. Likewise, the mortal body is intended to only be operational during mortality. Like the car is only intended to be driven, not drive by itself. But that does not mean it cannot have action of it's own. I think that is an over-interpretation of that verse as it is certainly possible someone have faith without works.

1 Timothy 5:6 " 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." She is alive but dead .... how is that? Because the actions of finding pleasure from carnal sources cannot let the seed live but the person is alive while dead from the spirit. The spirit has no influence but the body liveth. Spiritual death. In a chapter about faith and works and spiritual matters, I am sure that is what James was referring to when he said the body without a spirit is dead. Of course, the spirit leaves the body when the body is dead. But the deeper meaning of that verse is the mortal body is mortal whereas spiritual things go beyond this life.

[Anddenex]

Well - it is there now. After you have mediated on that for a while - I would be interested in your ideas. Sort of a sanity check for me.

The Traveler

My first thoughts of our brain being the veil bears witness of truth. We are taught in scripture that knowledge precedes eternal life. We begin to learn and know God, and as we begin to learn and know God we receive eternal life.

Our knowledge, the ability to obtain knowledge, is linked heavily with our brain. The more knowledge we gain, the less likely the veil will be able to contain us, such that our faith becomes knowledge and like the brother of Jared who saw the finger and then the whole spirit body of Jehovah.

Very interesting connection, more to meditate upon. :)

[Traveler]

Yeah! I am getting through!

Why is it not possible that some of the "functions" you speak of cannot be spontaneous thought, or the thought that creeps onto the stage or imagination or misconception?

Like driving a car that is pulling to left, it is only revealed by actually driving. The car sitting in the driveway is not pulling to the left. But once the driver gets in and drives then the action of pulling to the left is experienced and has to be counteracted to drive straight. The driver is not pulling to the left, the car is.

Just because a body without a spirit is dead doesn't mean it cannot have action of its own, or it cannot have "function" as you put it.

The actions of the body is "dead", that is why the body without the spirit is dead. Like faith without works is dead, they have to go hand in hand. But that does not mean that a person cannot have faith alone or faith without works. Faith without works is not nothing. It is something but it does not live, it does not go beyond this life. Likewise, the mortal body is intended to only be operational during mortality. Like the car is only intended to be driven, not drive by itself. But that does not mean it cannot have action of it's own. I think that is an over-interpretation of that verse as it is certainly possible someone have faith without works.

1 Timothy 5:6 " 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." She is alive but dead .... how is that? Because the actions of finding pleasure from carnal sources cannot let the seed live but the person is alive while dead from the spirit. The spirit has no influence but the body liveth. Spiritual death. In a chapter about faith and works and spiritual matters, I am sure that is what James was referring to when he said the body without a spirit is dead. Of course, the spirit leaves the body when the body is dead. But the deeper meaning of that verse is the mortal body is mortal whereas spiritual things go beyond this life.

I personally do not believe in spontaneous anything - which may sound odd for a physicists trained in quantum mechanics. I believe that every thought from our brain comes either from our spirit causing it or another spirit causing it. I believe that if a thought is not caused by our spirit then the thought either comes from the Holy Spirit (Ghost) or from the influence of a unclean spirit.

When we listen to the promptings of a unclean spirit the promptings of a clean spirit are diminished and vice versa. Thus as we listen to unclean spirits we become dead to the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost).

I would compare other than our spirit, spiritual influences to a radio. We (our spirit) can only tune in one station at a time. In order to receive thoughts from the Holy Ghost our spirit must tune in our brain to holy things. The same in receiving thoughts from a unclean spirit. With one caveat. The default or natural setting for our brain is tuned to receive the promptings from unclean spirits.

I do not believe our brain can hatch any unholy thought without help.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I personally do not believe in spontaneous anything - which may sound odd for a physicists trained in quantum mechanics. I believe that every thought from our brain comes either from our spirit causing it or another spirit causing it. I believe that if a thought is not caused by our spirit then the thought either comes from the Holy Spirit (Ghost) or from the influence of a unclean spirit.

When we listen to the promptings of a unclean spirit the promptings of a clean spirit are diminished and vice versa. Thus as we listen to unclean spirits we become dead to the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost).

I would compare other than our spirit, spiritual influences to a radio. We (our spirit) can only tune in one station at a time. In order to receive thoughts from the Holy Ghost our spirit must tune in our brain to holy things. The same in receiving thoughts from a unclean spirit. With one caveat. The default or natural setting for our brain is tuned to receive the promptings from unclean spirits.

I do not believe our brain can hatch any unholy thought without help.

The Traveler

So, you would not be satisfied with simply saying the "hatching" of the unholy thoughts was the Fall, the start of the mortal corrupted body process?

I realize you want to see the brain as just a "radio receiver" type organ. I think one ponders the utility of the body and the brain when we realize that the only way to become glorified is to be united with a body. So, the spirit alone does not have all it takes to reach even the Telestial Kingdom. What is it from the physical body that is added to the spirit that makes it more glorified for even the Telestial being than would be there with only a spirit? Answering the question for a Telestial being is important because then the answer is more involved than simply the knee-jerk answer of reproductive purposes. What does the brain add to the make the soul? Spirit and body together make the soul and can lead to a fullness of joy. This is such an important concept in our faith and yet there is a lot of resistance to the idea that the brain does anything at all other than relay signals. Why not just use a cell phone or some other technological apparatus if that is all it does ... The perfected body adds glory that a spirit alone could not accommodate. The dual being description the prophet Mckay gives is, to me, a good place to start in understanding this relationship.

Why are you so insistent on a "one mind" description. What of the gospel doctrine is thrown off by David O. McKay's description of a dual nature, the physical body nature and the spiritual body nature? To me, it allows better understanding of phrases like "forgive them for they know not what they do." How can one do something they don't know they are doing? It is possible if we are truly dual beings. The left hand knows not what the right hand is doing. And how one can be spiritually dead while they are alive. And this would explain how a spirit is not held accountable for something the body is doing, like if a person with mania jumps the temple wall in attempts to hurt someone inside, etc. There would be no reason for God to see the inside if there is no inside or outside (dual being), it would all be one. Man seeing the outside would also be seeing the inside if it was one.

[Traveler]

So, you would not be satisfied with simply saying the "hatching" of the unholy thoughts was the Fall, the start of the mortal corrupted body process?

....

I am not sure what your are trying to say. The fall was not physical only. I think that the fall had spiritual implications as well. I believe that both our physical body and our spirit suffered because of the fall. The fall is not the source of unholy thoughts. I believe that is the role of Satan.

Since the book titled "Colossus" SiFi has been concerned with artificial intelligence becoming self aware and overtaking human intelligence. But as sophisticated as hardware has become - the most powerful computer is moot (dead) without software - just as our brain, as wonderful and powerful a creation, is no more intelligent than any other physical object without a spirit. It is the spirit that gives life and intelligence to G-d's physical creations.

I am not sure but it sure seems that you believe that without a physical body a spirit cannot have or maintain a unholy thought. I believe that Satan and his followers proves that to be incorrect.

As to a dual nature - it appears to me that a dual nature is the character of intelligence. It appears to me that any intelligent entity has agency or the ability to seek good or evil in the sphere in which it exists. And it does not matter at all if such a being is physical or spiritual. I believe the scriptures prove that there are unholy spirits and holy spirits. And I believe that I have, in this empirical existence, experienced that there are both holy and unholy deeds done by embodied mortal beings.

So I agree that man has a dual nature. What I do not understand is the concept that or spirits did not experience in our pre-existence any duality - to the contrary I believe we made had a choice arising from our dual nature without any physical influences.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not sure what your are trying to say. The fall was not physical only. I think that the fall had spiritual implications as well. I believe that both our physical body and our spirit suffered because of the fall. The fall is not the source of unholy thoughts. I believe that is the role of Satan.

Since the book titled "Colossus" SiFi has been concerned with artificial intelligence becoming self aware and overtaking human intelligence. But as sophisticated as hardware has become - the most powerful computer is moot (dead) without software - just as our brain, as wonderful and powerful a creation, is no more intelligent than any other physical object without a spirit. It is the spirit that gives life and intelligence to G-d's physical creations.

I am not sure but it sure seems that you believe that without a physical body a spirit cannot have or maintain a unholy thought. I believe that Satan and his followers proves that to be incorrect.

As to a dual nature - it appears to me that a dual nature is the character of intelligence. It appears to me that any intelligent entity has agency or the ability to seek good or evil in the sphere in which it exists. And it does not matter at all if such a being is physical or spiritual. I believe the scriptures prove that there are unholy spirits and holy spirits. And I believe that I have, in this empirical existence, experienced that there are both holy and unholy deeds done by embodied mortal beings.

So I agree that man has a dual nature. What I do not understand is the concept that or spirits did not experience in our pre-existence any duality - to the contrary I believe we made had a choice arising from our dual nature without any physical influences.

The Traveler

What spirit that you know about experienced duality? All we know about it is at the end of our maturing process in the pre-mortal world we were given agency with one particular fork in the road, to follow Satan or God, to make a choice. Spirits either chose one or the other. There were no wafflers after the battle was done. A spirit chose one or the other. To make a choice is not duality if one chooses one and not the other.

If you feel so strongly, what is the purpose of physical influences then, at least as far as testing goes? They play no role?

I think Paul understood this concept well and wrote about it frequently, Romans 7 is a good example; " 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

You want to think that this is my made up set of beliefs or ideas, where I have only looked at what the prophets and scriptures say about it and try to understand it. Brigham Young said; "The spirits that live in these tabernacles were as pure as the heavens, when they entered them. They came to tabernacles that are contaminated, pertaining to the flesh, by the fall of man. The Psalmist says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” [Psalm 51:5]. This Scripture has established in the minds of some the doctrine of total depravity—that it is impossible for them to have one good thought, that they are altogether sinful, that there is no good, no soundness, and no spiritual health in them. This is not correct, yet we have a warfare within us. We have to contend against evil passions, or the seeds of iniquity that are sown in the flesh through the fall. The pure spirits that occupy these tabernacles are operated upon, and it is the right of him that sent them into these tabernacles to hold the pre-eminence, and to always give the Spirit of truth to influence the spirits of men, that it may triumph and reign predominantly in our tabernacles, the God and Lord of every motion."

I am not trying to say it is an all or nothing set up that the spirit is flawless but the fact of the matter is that we came to this Earth triumphant over Satan, we passed the first estate test. And then we received corruption in the flesh, we fell. You would like to say that we didn't fall very far. Whereas, what I am saying is that by taking on this body we fell very far. That is the difference. But here is the real thing to consider, how ever far we fell is the equal if not greater magnitude to which the Savior saves us from. In other words, if one does not think we fell very far, we are the same old wretched being we were before then Christ's counteraction of the Fall is not much. I believe I cannot overcome the effects of the Fall without a Savior. Christ spent a lot of his time performing miracles related to healing the body and in fact His final act was to overcome His own body, the death of His body. When we partake of the Sacrament we take on His flesh and blood for a reason, to replace our own, symbolically. We wash our body with the baptism, we then renew the washing with the Sacrament, so we can remain or return to spiritual purity after the body has corrupted that spiritual purity. Once we take care of the body then we can move on to bigger things, sanctifying the spirit. This is why the law of Moses, focusing on the physical circumcision is a primary law fulfilled in Christ because through Him we can all overcome the physical nature so we can focus on spiritual improvement. Why overcome the physical if there is nothing to overcome? Why subdue the flesh if there is nothing to subdue? If it is one thing then it would only be subdue self. To subdue, one thing has to be over the other ... two separate things. Those that claim the self is one thing, love to say things like, 'just be yourself' or 'do what feels right to you'. Whereas we know that we are to do what feels right to the spirit and not follow the passions of the flesh, we can separate those two.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

What spirit that you know about experienced duality? All we know about it is at the end of our maturing process in the pre-mortal world we were given agency with one particular fork in the road, to follow Satan or God, to make a choice. Spirits either chose one or the other. There were no wafflers after the battle was done. A spirit chose one or the other. To make a choice is not duality if one chooses one and not the other.

If you feel so strongly, what is the purpose of physical influences then, at least as far as testing goes? They play no role?

I think Paul understood this concept well and wrote about it frequently, Romans 7 is a good example; " 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

You want to think that this is my made up set of beliefs or ideas, where I have only looked at what the prophets and scriptures say about it and try to understand it. Brigham Young said; "The spirits that live in these tabernacles were as pure as the heavens, when they entered them. They came to tabernacles that are contaminated, pertaining to the flesh, by the fall of man. The Psalmist says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” [Psalm 51:5]. This Scripture has established in the minds of some the doctrine of total depravity—that it is impossible for them to have one good thought, that they are altogether sinful, that there is no good, no soundness, and no spiritual health in them. This is not correct, yet we have a warfare within us. We have to contend against evil passions, or the seeds of iniquity that are sown in the flesh through the fall. The pure spirits that occupy these tabernacles are operated upon, and it is the right of him that sent them into these tabernacles to hold the pre-eminence, and to always give the Spirit of truth to influence the spirits of men, that it may triumph and reign predominantly in our tabernacles, the God and Lord of every motion."

I am not trying to say it is an all or nothing set up that the spirit is flawless but the fact of the matter is that we came to this Earth triumphant over Satan, we passed the first estate test. And then we received corruption in the flesh, we fell. You would like to say that we didn't fall very far. Whereas, what I am saying is that by taking on this body we fell very far. That is the difference. But here is the real thing to consider, how ever far we fell is the equal if not greater magnitude to which the Savior saves us from. In other words, if one does not think we fell very far, we are the same old wretched being we were before then Christ's counteraction of the Fall is not much. I believe I cannot overcome the effects of the Fall without a Savior. Christ spent a lot of his time performing miracles related to healing the body and in fact His final act was to overcome His own body, the death of His body. When we partake of the Sacrament we take on His flesh and blood for a reason, to replace our own, symbolically. We wash our body with the baptism, we then renew the washing with the Sacrament, so we can remain or return to spiritual purity after the body has corrupted that spiritual purity. Once we take care of the body then we can move on to bigger things, sanctifying the spirit. This is why the law of Moses, focusing on the physical circumcision is a primary law fulfilled in Christ because through Him we can all overcome the physical nature so we can focus on spiritual improvement. Why overcome the physical if there is nothing to overcome? Why subdue the flesh if there is nothing to subdue? If it is one thing then it would only be subdue self. To subdue, one thing has to be over the other ... two separate things. Those that claim the self is one thing, love to say things like, 'just be yourself' or 'do what feels right to you'. Whereas we know that we are to do what feels right to the spirit and not follow the passions of the flesh, we can separate those two.

D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Please note colored text

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Please note colored text

The Traveler

If you go back a few posts ago, I say that I have never said the body sins. I believe the spirit of man sins. That is not affected by a body that is corrupt while here because as spirits we agreed to come here and take on this body.

The scripture you highlighted so beautifully in pretty colors is saying that in the beginning the truth was plainly manifest, while in the spirit we all accepted God's plan and yet while here as man, this is our condemnation because we don't receive that knowledge, we don't have full access to it. Why? because of the veil. And in this life if we don't receive promptings of the spirit and remembrance from our own spirit then we fall under condemnation. ... what other point are you trying to make?

[Seminarysnoozer]

My first thoughts of our brain being the veil bears witness of truth. We are taught in scripture that knowledge precedes eternal life. We begin to learn and know God, and as we begin to learn and know God we receive eternal life.

Our knowledge, the ability to obtain knowledge, is linked heavily with our brain. The more knowledge we gain, the less likely the veil will be able to contain us, such that our faith becomes knowledge and like the brother of Jared who saw the finger and then the whole spirit body of Jehovah.

Very interesting connection, more to meditate upon. :)

Faith in this life is what brought the brother of Jared to see God. Before this life we obtained all the knowledge there is about God save some experiential knowledge, like living by faith without having direct contact with God. God is not going to save someone based on how many scriptures their brain is capable of memorizing or how learned someone is (the ability to obtain knowledge). 80 +/- years of life while living in a corrupted mortal body doesn't even compare to the quantity of knowledge obtained while living in God's presence for thousands if not longer years without a veil of forgetfulness. Spiritual knowledge while here is what makes our faith useful knowledge. What carnal thing can understand spiritual things?

Why would you claim your brain's ability as your own. This is a temporary stewardship. Even if one had Einstein's brain or whoever you esteem as being intelligent, they cannot claim it as their own, it is given, the body is given as a temporary stewardship. Even professional athletes (a few of them) at least give praise to God for their successful body characteristics. Carnal intelligence is also given temporarily just as linearly related to the spirit of one who is born with Down's syndrome. ... there is no linear relationship to spiritual intelligence and carnal/brain intelligence.

[Anddenex]

God is not going to save someone based on how many scriptures their brain is capable of memorizing or how learned someone is (the ability to obtain knowledge). 80 +/- years of life while living in a corrupted mortal body doesn't even compare to the quantity of knowledge obtained while living in God's presence for thousands if not longer years without a veil of forgetfulness. Spiritual knowledge while here is what makes our faith useful knowledge. What carnal thing can understand spiritual things?

Well, fill me in with the vast amount of knowledge we had before we received a mortal body, because I don't remember any of it, not one iota.

I can only witness that the spirit has born witness to me that this is true, we lived with God and will one day live again with him.

Not sure why you are even discussing if we are saved by memorizing scriptures. I don't ever remembering saying or writing that I, or anybody for that matter, will be saved by memorizing scriptures.

There isn't anything which is carnal that understands spiritual things, as we already discussed spiritually minded is life, and to be carnally minded is death.

Why would you claim your brain's ability as your own.

Where did I claim my brain's ability as my own...?

[Traveler]

If you go back a few posts ago, I say that I have never said the body sins. I believe the spirit of man sins. That is not affected by a body that is corrupt while here because as spirits we agreed to come here and take on this body.

The scripture you highlighted so beautifully in pretty colors is saying that in the beginning the truth was plainly manifest, while in the spirit we all accepted God's plan and yet while here as man, this is our condemnation because we don't receive that knowledge, we don't have full access to it. Why? because of the veil. And in this life if we don't receive promptings of the spirit and remembrance from our own spirit then we fall under condemnation. ... what other point are you trying to make?

The point is that the proclivity to sin existed as part of our individual intelligence (spirit) from the very beginning. It was not manifested from the beginning - but becomes manifested through the agency of man. The agency of the pre-esistence (first estate) was added upon in our second estate as we gain knowledge of good and evil.

Note that Satan was a liar from the beginning but that he was not cast out until he rebelled against G-d.

The Traveler

Edited June 6, 2013 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The point is that the proclivity to sin existed as part of our individual intelligence (spirit) from the very beginning. It was not manifested from the beginning - but becomes manifested through the agency of man. The agency of the pre-esistence (first estate) was added upon in our second estate as we gain knowledge of good and evil.

Note that Satan was a liar from the beginning but that he was not cast out until he rebelled against G-d.

The Traveler

I agree with everything you say here. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I have said.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, fill me in with the vast amount of knowledge we had before we received a mortal body, because I don't remember any of it, not one iota.

I can only witness that the spirit has born witness to me that this is true, we lived with God and will one day live again with him.

Not sure why you are even discussing if we are saved by memorizing scriptures. I don't ever remembering saying or writing that I, or anybody for that matter, will be saved by memorizing scriptures.

There isn't anything which is carnal that understands spiritual things, as we already discussed spiritually minded is life, and to be carnally minded is death.

Where did I claim my brain's ability as my own...?

You said the ability to obtain knowledge is linked to the brain. If you are just talking about spiritual things, then how is that true?

If you don't remember anything the spirit learned then how can one claim that every thought and personality etc. is generated by the spirit. Intelligence requires memory. If we have zero memory from our spiritual pre-mortal growth then how much does the spirit really contribute to our current level of intelligence as mortals, as a dual being? I think, as we are spiritually minded, small pieces of our spiritual intellect come to use but is easily overpowered by carnal brain circuitry and lost in the haze if not remaining in touch with the spirit.

When I was using the word "you" it was intended to be more general, as in if one believes that their knowledge obtained through the brain is their own (sorry, I do that from time to time - blaming it on my carnal brain, lol). On the other hand you did say that you think the mind is one, so if one believes the mind is one then any perception of self would include earthly characteristics as one thing. Of course, if you don't believe the brain originates any thought (while it requires the spirit to be active) then of course there is nothing to claim that comes from the brain. Maybe you are trying to say that the brain adds nothing to character or expression of thought? If one believes the brain adds nothing to the soul, then there is nothing there to claim as own.

Do you not believe in genetically inherited traits? Is there any input into intelligence that is genetically inherited falling into the mortal body patterns of inheritance? Why do identical twins, raised in the same environment have similar personalities to each other as well as observable traits from parents in an earthly mortal inheritance pattern if it is not the body that contributes to personality and thought pattern and intelligence? It isn't because the earthly parents begat the spirits of those twins. Their two spirits should be just as varied as any other two spirits.

[Anddenex]

You said the ability to obtain knowledge is linked to the brain. If you are just talking about spiritual things, then how is that true?

I am referring to both things which are spiritual and things which are temporal, and knowledge that we obtain in this life is a result from the interaction of the spirit, our brain, and the Holy Ghost.

The idea that we learned in the, as you would say, everything in God's presence, doesn't negate we are still learning spiritual things here. Otherwise we would already know everything, but we don't, or better said we don't remember and we are relearning what we already learned, and learning knew things by experience.

If you don't remember anything the spirit learned then how can one claim that every thought and personality etc. is generated by the spirit. Intelligence requires memory. If we have zero memory from our spiritual pre-mortal growth then how much does the spirit really contribute to our current level of intelligence as mortals, as a dual being? I think, as we are spiritually minded, small pieces of our spiritual intellect come to use but is easily overpowered by carnal brain circuitry and lost in the haze if not remaining in touch with the spirit.

I don't find the rhetorical question relevant to our spirits not being able to remember our pre-mortal existence. Everything we think is able to be directly connected to our instruction, temptations from the adversary (not our brain), and by observing others.

I don't find any evidence within scripture to support the logic that we are easily overpowered by our "carnal brain circuitry." People, sons and daughters of God, either choose life or damnation by listening to the spirit of righteousness, or the spirit of the evil one -- not our brain.

Cain wasn't overpowered by his "brain circuitry," he was a willing particpant in listening to the adversary over the spirit -- not his brain.

On the other hand you did say that you think the mind is one, so if one believes the mind is one then any perception of self would include earthly characteristics as one thing.

This might be a matter of semantics, however I don't believe the "mind is one;" I believe we have "one mind" and that mind is our intelligence that is eternal. Our bain doesn't offer us another mind.

Maybe you are trying to say that the brain adds nothing to character or expression of thought? If one believes the brain adds nothing to the soul, then there is nothing there to claim as own.

Our brains are apart of our mortal probation, a necessary experience in order to become like God. The brain definitely adds something to our soul, for the body and the spirit make the soul, and without one there isn't a fullness of joy. I simply don't agree with the premise that the "brain" adds an additional mind. We have one mind that is eternal.

Do you not believe in genetically inherited traits? Is there any input into intelligence that is genetically inherited falling into the mortal body patterns of inheritance?

Indeed I do believe in genetically inherited traits. I am not sure what you are meaning, or attempting to present with the last question. I believe in dispositions, that each of us inherit a different disposition by which we have to work on; however, I have wondered if our dispositions are connected to the type of spirit we had in our pre-mortal life. This is part of the reason why our prophets tell us to become aware, learn, the individual dispositions of our children and the youth we interact with.

Why do identical twins, raised in the same environment have similar personalities to each other as well as observable traits from parents in an earthly mortal inheritance pattern if it is not the body that contributes to personality and thought pattern and intelligence? It isn't because the earthly parents begat the spirits of those twins. Their two spirits should be just as varied as any other two spirits.

Identical twins isn't a solid argument due to the fact their are identical twins who are raised in the same home and do not share similar personalities. A couple years back I watched an identical twins study of two boys. One boy was 100% boy. The other boy was more femine in his likes and dislikes. Same environment, same teachings, yet very two different boys -- identical twins. Too many variables with twin studies to actually come to a solid conclusion.

The idea that two spirits should be varied as any other two spirits isn't a factual assessment. We do not know, better said, we do not remember how varied our spirits were in the pre-mortal life. Some of us may have been more similar to each other than you present. Yes, we are unique, however I find it interesting that my best friend in H.S. he and I shared very similar personalities, not only personalities but looks also, that at times my own mother would confuse us. Two totally different environments, yet two personalities which were similar.

[Traveler]

I agree with everything you say here. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I have said.

Then I must apologize for not understanding your posts better.

I do not know if this matter or if it plays into the discussion concerning our life's challenges and opportunities but I see a great similarity (symbolism) in sports as one plays in the final moments of a championship (their last game their senior season - the last game of their sports opportunity and the results in the balance.

Great players think to themselves that this is the moment that they have trained and prepared their entire life for - They are ready and during the last time out it was discussed with the coach and the team. They all know what to do - they finish off the game exactly as they planned, prepared and trained - each doing their part.

Whenever I was discouraged or felt overwhelmed as a lad - my father would pull me aside and say "My son - just realize that you are what you are today and you now face what you have prepared for and trained for, not just since you were born but as long as you have been. Now get back in there and do what you know must be done." So many time as I have been on my knees in prayer, discouraged thinking something important has been lost - I have heard in whispers my father's love and trust in answer encouraging me back into the "fight".

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am referring to both things which are spiritual and things which are temporal, and knowledge that we obtain in this life is a result from the interaction of the spirit, our brain, and the Holy Ghost.

The idea that we learned in the, as you would say, everything in God's presence, doesn't negate we are still learning spiritual things here. Otherwise we would already know everything, but we don't, or better said we don't remember and we are relearning what we already learned, and learning knew things by experience.

I don't find the rhetorical question relevant to our spirits not being able to remember our pre-mortal existence. Everything we think is able to be directly connected to our instruction, temptations from the adversary (not our brain), and by observing others.

I don't find any evidence within scripture to support the logic that we are easily overpowered by our "carnal brain circuitry." People, sons and daughters of God, either choose life or damnation by listening to the spirit of righteousness, or the spirit of the evil one -- not our brain.

Cain wasn't overpowered by his "brain circuitry," he was a willing particpant in listening to the adversary over the spirit -- not his brain.

This might be a matter of semantics, however I don't believe the "mind is one;" I believe we have "one mind" and that mind is our intelligence that is eternal. Our bain doesn't offer us another mind.

Our brains are apart of our mortal probation, a necessary experience in order to become like God. The brain definitely adds something to our soul, for the body and the spirit make the soul, and without one there isn't a fullness of joy. I simply don't agree with the premise that the "brain" adds an additional mind. We have one mind that is eternal.

Indeed I do believe in genetically inherited traits. I am not sure what you are meaning, or attempting to present with the last question. I believe in dispositions, that each of us inherit a different disposition by which we have to work on; however, I have wondered if our dispositions are connected to the type of spirit we had in our pre-mortal life. This is part of the reason why our prophets tell us to become aware, learn, the individual dispositions of our children and the youth we interact with.

Identical twins isn't a solid argument due to the fact their are identical twins who are raised in the same home and do not share similar personalities. A couple years back I watched an identical twins study of two boys. One boy was 100% boy. The other boy was more femine in his likes and dislikes. Same environment, same teachings, yet very two different boys -- identical twins. Too many variables with twin studies to actually come to a solid conclusion.

The idea that two spirits should be varied as any other two spirits isn't a factual assessment. We do not know, better said, we do not remember how varied our spirits were in the pre-mortal life. Some of us may have been more similar to each other than you present. Yes, we are unique, however I find it interesting that my best friend in H.S. he and I shared very similar personalities, not only personalities but looks also, that at times my own mother would confuse us. Two totally different environments, yet two personalities which were similar.

Identical twins is not a perfect example because even though we say "identical" there are actually slight genetic differences, enough to allow for some difference in personalities etc. But, if you were to look at the relative similarities instead of trying to find the exception to the rule then you would see that there is a strong association to genetics and personality, thought pattern etc. If you were to look at the average variability amongst us, not the exception to the rule like your one friend, then I think you would agree that on average, identical twins are more similar in their personalities then the average difference between everyone else who is not their identical. You are avoiding my point by trying to find an exception, which makes it hard to have a conversation about it. I never said that there is an idea of any two spirits having a set variability, but the average variability is different comparing identical twins verses the average variability amongst others. i.e. - the standard deviation in personality, if one were to do a personality assessment, amongst identical twins verses the standard deviation of personalities of siblings who are not identical. Then one could see the relative influence of body/brain to personality and therefore thought pattern etc.

Let me ask you, do you believe that if a person who has same sex attraction were theoretically able to change bodies with someone who has opposite sex attraction still have same sex attraction or would it change to the predisposition of the new body? In other words, is it the spirit that provides the same sex attraction (note - I am not saying the practice of same sex attraction or the yielding to the same sex attraction, just the attraction or the tendency for attraction alone) or is it the body/brain that provides the same sex attraction. Is the same sex attraction something the spirit is truly born with from a spirit birth standpoint or is it only with mortal birth that they are tested with that stewardship?

Or for that matter, did we even have any sexual attractions as spirits alone? If you say no to that then you would have to agree that there is a separate "mind" that is added to our soul when there is body and spirit combined.

One can call the union of these two influence "one mind" if preferred and in fact I believe there are many scriptures that do that. But then there are other discussions, such as when Paul and David O. Mckay separate the two influences, the natural mind and the spiritual mind as they originate from two different sources. Together they are one, no doubt, especially since we have a hard time separating it while in this existence. I believe though that God does not have difficulty where those influences come from. That is why only He can judge another. As we cannot separate where the influences come from in any one person we cannot judge because we cannot see the inner man to separate those two influences. So, we are stuck with seeing the "one mind" even though we are told there are two natures. As David O. Mckay said, "That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body." If the "natural body" has no mind then I am not sure why we have such complex circuitry in the brain to generate self awareness, personality traits, drives, tendencies, likes and dislikes, spontaneous thought that has been shown through the default networks in the brain when not focused on anything in particular, etc. All of that would be useless if the "mind" is solely a construct of spiritual input. Just like a donkey talking, our brain would not need to be complex, if the spirit just made it talk, think and act alone. The only way to make sense of it is to realize that the soul or what you are saying "one mind" is the combination of input from the brain and the spirit.

I think, if you were to look at humanity as a whole, the majority of people do not listen to the same spiritual influences that allowed them to pass the first estate test in which they showed sufficient faith to believe in Christ and God's plan. And yet you think that same spirit drives them now. It seems to me a different set of thoughts drives them, unless they humble their self and listen to that still small voice it is overpowered by stronger influences. Not because that is their spiritual nature. They already proved that that is not their spiritual nature. Satan already tempted all those spirits with everything he had and they showed that they did not agree with those things by passing the first estate test. They passed the spirit verses spirit test. Now we face a different challenge, spirit verses flesh test. Or spiritual verses carnality. You want to say that the spirit verses carnality test is still somehow a spirit verses spirit test ... well why would be facing the same test we already passed? This test is different.

[Anddenex]

You are avoiding my point by trying to find an exception, which makes it hard to have a conversation about it. I never said that there is an idea of any two spirits having a set variability, but the average variability is different comparing identical twins verses the average variability amongst others. i.e. - the standard deviation in personality, if one were to do a personality assessment, amongst identical twins verses the standard deviation of personalities of siblings who are not identical. Then one could see the relative influence of body/brain to personality and therefore thought pattern etc.

This would be incorrect. I am not avoiding your point, I am actually responding to your point and providing evidence to the contrary. Within your frame of reference avoiding then means providing other evidences which do not support your theory?

Are you positive there are no other sources, evidences, besides my "one friend"? This "one friend" also was the brother of identical twins. At first glance, these twins appeared very similar, however once a person became more acquainted with these twins the only similarity was their outward appearance.

I still remember the time playing basketball with my "one friend" and how a boy approached me and asked me where my twin was. I asked, "My twin"? He responded, "Your brother"? I responded, "My brother? Oh you mean (fill name) my best friend." The look of shock was very interesting on this boys face.

No, I am not avoiding any conversation I am pointing out other studies which do not support your premise.

Is the same sex attraction something the spirit is truly born with from a spirit birth standpoint or is it only with mortal birth that they are tested with that stewardship?

No. I personally believe no matter what body they receive they will still have same sex attraction. This is my personal thoughts. The reality we don't know.

Or for that matter, did we even have any sexual attractions as spirits alone? If you say no to that then you would have to agree that there is a separate "mind" that is added to our soul when there is body and spirit combined.

This presents a false dilemma for me, or a false alternative. The question, or statement, assumes there are no other alternatives except the one they provide.

There is no separate "mind" that we experience. We have "one mind." We don't know if we had sexual attractions, we may have or may have not. The ability to experience sexual attractions within a body doesn't provide us with a "different mind" only a different experience our "one mind" is able to experience.

So, we are stuck with seeing the "one mind" even though we are told there are two natures. As David O. Mckay said, "That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body." ... The only way to make sense of it is to realize that the soul or what you are saying "one mind" is the combination of input from the brain and the spirit.

Two natures are a result of "knowledge" and "opposition" -- good vs. evil, truth vs. error, darkness vs. light, love vs. lust.

I understand this is the only way you make sense of it, but it is not the "only" way to make sense of it. We have "one mind" our spirit which is influenced by many factors: our parents, our friends, our personal spirit (otherwise noble and great ones would be a pointless statement (if our personal spirits didn't have any impact in our lives then being "noble and great" wouldn't matter either.)), our friends, our instructors, personal observation, and our personal genetics.

I think, if you were to look at humanity as a whole, the majority of people do not listen to the same spiritual influences that allowed them to pass the first estate test in which they showed sufficient faith to believe in Christ and God's plan. And yet you think that same spirit drives them now.

Yes, the same spirit continue to drives me and my faithfulness that existed with God. Did not our Lord's spirit influence his destiny to actually fulfill the atonement? Yes, the Lord Jehovah, his spirit -- his faithfulness and love for God of perfect obedience, is the same spirit he had when he entered a tabernacle of flesh, and by that same spirit he remained faithful to the end.

Our first estate was a different type of test then we are experiencing now in our second estate. The first estate test we could see God and know he existed. We also experienced his power first hand.

We now experience life without any knowledge of God unless we are taught his ways and taught his truths.

It seems to me a different set of thoughts drives them, unless they humble their self and listen to that still small voice it is overpowered by stronger influences. Not because that is their spiritual nature. They already proved that that is not their spiritual nature. Satan already tempted all those spirits with everything he had and they showed that they did not agree with those things by passing the first estate test. They passed the spirit verses spirit test. Now we face a different challenge, spirit verses flesh test. Or spiritual verses carnality. You want to say that the spirit verses carnality test is still somehow a spirit verses spirit test ... well why would be facing the same test we already passed? This test is different.

I would disagree. We are still proving our spiritual nature, we are actually proving our spiritual nature now more than any other time because we walk by faith.

I look at your example with regard to parents who raise good and righteous kids. While in their presence they keep the commandments, they attend Church, and these are kids we would say as Church members are "good kids."

Yet when some of these good kids leave their "authority figure," in other words, they aren't coming home to the authority figure for reliance or to be checked by the parents -- how unfortunate it is to see these children then turn away from the gospel. They proved themselves faithful within the presence of their parents, but when out of the presence of their authority figure they make choices unbecoming of their already proven choices of being "good."

Same spirit, different temptations, and we are still proving our spiritual natures, whether we are like God or we are not like God.

All the more sad when someone who proved so valiant in our first estate, removes him/herself from the Lord in their second estate. They are unable to withstand the buffetings of the adversary in this life.