"Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"


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Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you are doing well. :)

God is not going to save someone based on how many scriptures their brain is capable of memorizing or how learned someone is (the ability to obtain knowledge).

If a person receives personal revelation that they should strive to increase in knowledge, can that person be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God if they do not strive to increase in knowledge and they do not repent?

This question is a sincere question and I am not trying to set you up or anything of the sort.

Regards,

Finrock

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I would disagree. We are still proving our spiritual nature, we are actually proving our spiritual nature now more than any other time because we walk by faith.

I look at your example with regard to parents who raise good and righteous kids. While in their presence they keep the commandments, they attend Church, and these are kids we would say as Church members are "good kids."

Yet when some of these good kids leave their "authority figure," in other words, they aren't coming home to the authority figure for reliance or to be checked by the parents -- how unfortunate it is to see these children then turn away from the gospel. They proved themselves faithful within the presence of their parents, but when out of the presence of their authority figure they make choices unbecoming of their already proven choices of being "good."

Same spirit, different temptations, and we are still proving our spiritual natures, whether we are like God or we are not like God.

All the more sad when someone who proved so valiant in our first estate, removes him/herself from the Lord in their second estate. They are unable to withstand the buffetings of the adversary in this life.

I very much like the example you have made here. I personally knew many a kid that was one way around their parents and quite another when away. I use to joke that I thought "SOB" stood for Son of a Bishop.

I have always believed that in such circumstance that the "real" character was manifested when they were on their own.

Thanks for the thought - I agree so much so that in the future I may use your example thinking of it as my own. :D

The Traveler

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Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you are doing well. :)

If a person receives personal revelation that they should strive to increase in knowledge, can that person be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God if they do not strive to increase in knowledge and they do not repent?

This question is a sincere question and I am not trying to set you up or anything of the sort.

Regards,

Finrock

The benefit in following such personal revelation received by the spirit, I am sure, is in terms of learning how to keep one's eye single to the glory of God and not on personal merit. If done with that focus as directed then yes they should follow that inspiration and will be blessed for doing so.

I would suggest though that there is no amount of secular knowledge one could obtain in this life that the spirit prior to coming here was already exposed to. For example, was there some mathematical equation or law of physics that we could only learn as a mortal being? Was there some biological mechanism that we couldn't learn about in the thousands or millions of years in preparation for this life that will not come pouring back to our memory after this life is done? The veil will be removed, it is not permanent. The tabula rasa of this life is not a permanent situation.

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The point is that the proclivity to sin existed as part of our individual intelligence (spirit) from the very beginning. It was not manifested from the beginning - but becomes manifested through the agency of man. The agency of the pre-esistence (first estate) was added upon in our second estate as we gain knowledge of good and evil.

Note that Satan was a liar from the beginning but that he was not cast out until he rebelled against G-d.

The Traveler

Agency is possible when there is opposition. The temptation or the opportunity to choose has to be presented. This is why, I am sure, David O. Mckay describes it as contrasting natures.

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This would be incorrect. I am not avoiding your point, I am actually responding to your point and providing evidence to the contrary. Within your frame of reference avoiding then means providing other evidences which do not support your theory?

Are you positive there are no other sources, evidences, besides my "one friend"? This "one friend" also was the brother of identical twins. At first glance, these twins appeared very similar, however once a person became more acquainted with these twins the only similarity was their outward appearance.

I still remember the time playing basketball with my "one friend" and how a boy approached me and asked me where my twin was. I asked, "My twin"? He responded, "Your brother"? I responded, "My brother? Oh you mean (fill name) my best friend." The look of shock was very interesting on this boys face.

No, I am not avoiding any conversation I am pointing out other studies which do not support your premise.

No. I personally believe no matter what body they receive they will still have same sex attraction. This is my personal thoughts. The reality we don't know.

This presents a false dilemma for me, or a false alternative. The question, or statement, assumes there are no other alternatives except the one they provide.

There is no separate "mind" that we experience. We have "one mind." We don't know if we had sexual attractions, we may have or may have not. The ability to experience sexual attractions within a body doesn't provide us with a "different mind" only a different experience our "one mind" is able to experience.

Two natures are a result of "knowledge" and "opposition" -- good vs. evil, truth vs. error, darkness vs. light, love vs. lust.

I understand this is the only way you make sense of it, but it is not the "only" way to make sense of it. We have "one mind" our spirit which is influenced by many factors: our parents, our friends, our personal spirit (otherwise noble and great ones would be a pointless statement (if our personal spirits didn't have any impact in our lives then being "noble and great" wouldn't matter either.)), our friends, our instructors, personal observation, and our personal genetics.

Yes, the same spirit continue to drives me and my faithfulness that existed with God. Did not our Lord's spirit influence his destiny to actually fulfill the atonement? Yes, the Lord Jehovah, his spirit -- his faithfulness and love for God of perfect obedience, is the same spirit he had when he entered a tabernacle of flesh, and by that same spirit he remained faithful to the end.

Our first estate was a different type of test then we are experiencing now in our second estate. The first estate test we could see God and know he existed. We also experienced his power first hand.

We now experience life without any knowledge of God unless we are taught his ways and taught his truths.

I would disagree. We are still proving our spiritual nature, we are actually proving our spiritual nature now more than any other time because we walk by faith.

I look at your example with regard to parents who raise good and righteous kids. While in their presence they keep the commandments, they attend Church, and these are kids we would say as Church members are "good kids."

Yet when some of these good kids leave their "authority figure," in other words, they aren't coming home to the authority figure for reliance or to be checked by the parents -- how unfortunate it is to see these children then turn away from the gospel. They proved themselves faithful within the presence of their parents, but when out of the presence of their authority figure they make choices unbecoming of their already proven choices of being "good."

Same spirit, different temptations, and we are still proving our spiritual natures, whether we are like God or we are not like God.

All the more sad when someone who proved so valiant in our first estate, removes him/herself from the Lord in their second estate. They are unable to withstand the buffetings of the adversary in this life.

I agree with most of the things you say here and especially towards the end of your comments here. And I appreciate your willingness to engage me in this topic. Thank you for your comments.

Why can't these "different temptations" be carnal desires? We weren't exposed to carnal desires before. Why cant these "different temptations" be the brain saying "I am hungry" when it is fast Sunday, or "I want to take a nap" instead of visiting with widow Smith? Why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says, "that other person is sexy" even though the person is married? Or why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says "self preservation, survival is most important" when we know we should give of our time and resources to serve others? As Paul describes all the carnal desires, I know of brain influencing aspects to those desires by understanding the brains circuitry and its influence on hormones and perceptions; The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

“Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

“Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

We know that the nature of God is that He has a body and spirit and not spirit alone. If that is the case, and we are trying to be like God, this being one of the fundamental parts of our religion; for God - what is it that His body provides to His being that the spirit alone could not provide in forming His nature, His character and His glory?

I am hearing in most of the comments that the body acts like a filter if anything. But, we believe that, at least in the next life, the body adds to our glory. Then what is added to our spirit being that wasn't there before?

If one answers that question with any form of additional perceptions that the spirit is not able to perceive on it's own, then that by definition is thought. Or even if what the spirit receives is simply enhanced or modified by the brain, then there is an added component to the "mind" generated by the circuitry of the brain. The brain is not just a receiver and a transmitter. It interprets. The interpretation of information is modified from its original content both coming and going.

If the body adds to the glory of God and the Glory of God is intelligence then one has to assume that the body adds intelligence. I would like to hear your thoughts about that. What does God's body add to His spirit to make Him greater than what would be spirit alone? Soul - spirit = what? It can't be nothing as the spirit alone does not = soul.

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Why can't these "different temptations" be carnal desires? We weren't exposed to carnal desires before. Why cant these "different temptations" be the brain saying "I am hungry" when it is fast Sunday, or "I want to take a nap" instead of visiting with widow Smith? Why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says, "that other person is sexy" even though the person is married? Or why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says "self preservation, survival is most important" when we know we should give of our time and resources to serve others? As Paul describes all the carnal desires, I know of brain influencing aspects to those desires by understanding the brains circuitry and its influence on hormones and perceptions; The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

These temptations are "carnal desires," we simply don't agree that these "carnal desires" are the product of an additional mind that produces thought.

I am not so sure we weren't exposed to carnal desires before especially in light of Paul's words and the examples you provide. We experienced "carnal desires" of envy, jealousy, pride, idolatry etc... Lucifer was the first idolater. He broke the first of the ten commandments in the council of heaven.

As to the ability to fornicate, adulterate, witchcraft, murder, etc... these things were impossible without a body, unless we define murder as in removing people from the presence of God, spiritual murder, as Satan did with a third part of the hosts of heaven.

Our body provides us with emotions, and our spirit interprets these emotions through the connection we have with our brain. We are tempted because of the adversary and other people who have fallen into temptation. Note, in the Book of Mormon, one of the greatest temptations we receive is from the "great and spacious building" filled with laughter, fornication, high-mindedness, and all sorts of sin. They stand and mock the people of God pressing toward the truth; unfortunately, some of our brethren fall away after being mocked. It wasn't the brain inspiring thoughts, it was the fiery darts of the adversary and other people's tauntings that caused them to remove themselves from the tree of life.

I believe the temple ceremony gives added meaning to our understanding of the body and its appetites. These appetites are not spontaneous thoughts, but are emotions driven by our physical bodies. We interpret these emotions by the instruction we receive from our parents, teachers, leaders, etc... When experiencing the appetite for sexual intimacy, this isn't a thought, but an emotion we experience which is then interpreted by our understanding, or we are tempted by the adversary to give into these appetites. I definitely don't agree that my appetites, emotions, are thoughts. I don't see them any different than I do the wind. As the winds sway the body of the earth, our emotions sway the body of our spirits. Whether or not we want to bend with our emotions, or to be firm and steadfast as the Mountains despite the beating the winds give, that is solely up to our individual intelligence, our "one mind."

We know that the nature of God is that He has a body and spirit and not spirit alone. If that is the case, and we are trying to be like God, this being one of the fundamental parts of our religion; for God - what is it that His body provides to His being that the spirit alone could not provide in forming His nature, His character and His glory?

If the body adds to the glory of God and the Glory of God is intelligence then one has to assume that the body adds intelligence. I would like to hear your thoughts about that. What does God's body add to His spirit to make Him greater than what would be spirit alone? Soul - spirit = what? It can't be nothing as the spirit alone does not = soul.

We have already entered into a discussion debating why we have a body. My first thoughts - without a body we are unable to multiply and replenish the earth, and I would not hesitate to say, without a body we would not be able to have spiritual offspring.

We would not be able to touch in the manner we touch now. We would not be able to "handle and see" as we would only as spirits.

Although, I disagree with individual who profess a spirit is unable to touch us. They are definitely able to touch us and exert some force upon us.

Edited by Anddenex
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Seminarysnoozer and Anddenex,

I think there is a problem with terms that are being used and how scriptures are understood. The term “carnal” simply means physical or of the flesh. There has been reasoning among the saints for eons that the carnal is evil. This has roots in Gnostic philosophy that so tied the flesh to evil that a belief was created that Christ was not really flesh or carnal. The problem is that there is a second term that is being overlooked that if integrated properly the divergences in thought are solved and the conflict is mitigated. That other term is “devilish”.

The problem of the natural man is not his carnal state or carnal mind it is the carnal and devilish state and carnal and devilish mind. Note how the two used together explicitly define the intent in meaning. Even when the scriptures use only the term “carnal” it is intending understanding which includes devilish. If we try to use the more broad extensions of the meaning of carnal then we fall into the problems the Gnostics had with Jesus having a carnal existence and are misdirected.

I think Seminarysnoozer is concerned with the carnal and devilish attribute of man but realized that in the resurrection we are made pure. The point is that in the resurrection we maintain an attribute of carnal-ness (physical) but being born of the spirit we are separated from that which is devilish; including that part of a carnal that is directly associated to that which is devilish.

I think Anddenex realizes that Satan is the G-d of all that is devilish and is the corruptor and tempter of carnal desires – which are more than just carnal but is carnal and devilish. I think I agree with Anddenex that our brain is carnal but not necessarily devilish. But I also think I agree with Seminarysnoozer that by not resisting temptations through sacrifice and discipline (that can only be accomplished by adhering to the holy spirit – spiritual) that our brain aids in locking us into devilish desires that become addictions.

But I think it is also important to note that the human brain can be disciplined to lock us into good habits of righteous behavior.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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The problem of the natural man is not his carnal state or carnal mind it is the carnal and devilish state and carnal and devilish mind. Note how the two used together explicitly define the intent in meaning. Even when the scriptures use only the term “carnal” it is intending understanding which includes devilish. If we try to use the more broad extensions of the meaning of carnal then we fall into the problems the Gnostics had with Jesus having a carnal existence and are misdirected.

I think Anddenex realizes that Satan is the G-d of all that is devilish and is the corruptor and tempter of carnal desires – which are more than just carnal but is carnal and devilish. I think I agree with Anddenex that our brain is carnal but not necessarily devilish. But I also think I agree with Seminarysnoozer that by not resisting temptations through sacrifice and discipline (that can only be accomplished by adhering to the holy spirit – spiritual) that our brain aids in locking us into devilish desires that become addictions.

Very well stated, and I agree. I also agree with the sentiment that our "brain aids in the locking us into devilish desires that become addictions."

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Seminarysnoozer and Anddenex,

I think Seminarysnoozer is concerned with the carnal and devilish attribute of man but realized that in the resurrection we are made pure. The point is that in the resurrection we maintain an attribute of carnal-ness (physical) but being born of the spirit we are separated from that which is devilish; including that part of a carnal that is directly associated to that which is devilish.

I think Anddenex realizes that Satan is the G-d of all that is devilish and is the corruptor and tempter of carnal desires – which are more than just carnal but is carnal and devilish. I think I agree with Anddenex that our brain is carnal but not necessarily devilish. But I also think I agree with Seminarysnoozer that by not resisting temptations through sacrifice and discipline (that can only be accomplished by adhering to the holy spirit – spiritual) that our brain aids in locking us into devilish desires that become addictions.

But I think it is also important to note that the human brain can be disciplined to lock us into good habits of righteous behavior.

The Traveler

Thanks Traveler for remaining open minded about this discussion and thank you Anddenex for your opinion and discussion. I think this issue is so dear to my heart because I work in the medical field and specifically with patients that have brain related problems and yet I can feel the presence of their spirit underneath the expression of those issues.

In discussing the "devilish" aspects of carnality, I think the term corruption fits that feature pretty well. To understand that our mortal bodies are corrupted by the effect of the Fall is to appreciate the reason we need a Savior. There were many things that happened at the point of the Fall, for each of us. Specifically, for Adam and Eve, their bodies changed. The whole world changed. Does the spirit of a lion really desire to kill gazelle or is that something that happens because the fallen bodies of every creature changed? With the millennium, carnal features will change again and we can see the prophesied changes that will occur including living in peace, no death and at the same time Satan is bound. It makes me wonder about who Satan can affect us as it seems to be associated with the corrupt nature of our bodies. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting the corruption of the body, healing and one of His final acts while here was one of overcoming the mortal body.

One of the unique aspects of our religion is a belief in needing a body to be like God. I am not sure of any other religion that believes that. If that is the case, I don't think we appreciate the significance of that belief. It is a clear statement about the nature of God, that God needs a body and that the body is beneficial to Him. You are absolutely right that there are many wonderful features of the body, probably many of which has not yet been revealed. The limited features of the mortal, corrupted body might not fully show what the perfected body is capable of as we are tested in little things so we might gain greater stewardship. It is important to realize that the prize for passing the test is presented in the form of a body, either a Celestial one, or a Terrestrial one, or a Telestial type that is varied as the stars vary. Keeping our eye single to the glory of God, I think, takes an additional significance when one realizes that part of His glory comes from His Celestial body. This may be how a "fullness" is received, like buying a computer that comes fully loaded. If experience, perception, understanding, social behavior etc. is contained within the wiring of the brain, then one can truly receive all that the Father has at the moment of receiving a Celestial body. If it is only contained in the spirit, then the body is not so important and adds little to becoming like God.

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Thanks Traveler for remaining open minded about this discussion and thank you Anddenex for your opinion and discussion. I think this issue is so dear to my heart because I work in the medical field and specifically with patients that have brain related problems and yet I can feel the presence of their spirit underneath the expression of those issues. Perhaps the spirit controls the body through the physical brain. If that is diseased, the spirit is prevented from acting rationally since it can neither receive the actual sensory input nor actuate the appropriate responses. And it may hear voices. There may even be actual demonic possession.

In discussing the "devilish" aspects of carnality, I think the term corruption fits that feature pretty well. To understand that our mortal bodies are corrupted by the effect of the Fall is to appreciate the reason we need a Savior. He helped remove the curse of the Fall placed on us in Genesis There were many things that happened at the point of the Fall, for each of us. Specifically, for Adam and Eve, their bodies changed. They changed from the Paradisaical flesh and bone bodies to bodies of flesh and blood. Then, they needed food i.e., to eat something as with the other animals. Blood is needed to transport energy to the cells. The whole world changed. Does the spirit of a lion really desire to kill gazelle No. or is that something that happens because the fallen bodies of every creature changed? Yes. Now they need food. With the millennium, carnal features will change again and we can see the prophesied changes that will occur including living in peace, no death and at the same time Satan is bound. Logically, unless we change the rules, the millennium will have both resurrected and ordinary beings. Those spirits that remain to be born must be born before they can be resurrected or "born again". It makes me wonder about who Satan can affect us as it seems to be associated with the corrupt nature of our bodies. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting the corruption of the body, healing and one of His final acts while here was one of overcoming the mortal body. What does that mean? Perhaps, He was just being kind to those around him suffering the inevitable pain of this mortal, fallen world.

One of the unique aspects of our religion is a belief in needing a body to be like God. We need a body to interact with matter (D&C 129). Spirits cannot affect matter. I am not sure of any other religion that believes that. No major religions do. They believe God is a spirit only. That is why I suggested (in another thread) that that the other churches are, in reality, worshiping the only other entity of note that does not have a body. If that is the case, I don't think we appreciate the significance of that belief. It is a clear statement about the nature of God, that God needs a body and that the body is beneficial to Him. You are absolutely right that there are many wonderful features of the body, probably many of which has not yet been revealed. The limited features of the mortal, corrupted body might not fully show what the perfected body is capable of as we are tested in little things so we might gain greater stewardship. Right! It is important to realize that the prize for passing the test is presented in the form of a body, either a Celestial one, or a Terrestrial one, or a Telestial type that is varied as the stars vary. When we chose to get a body, we are certain to have some kind or degree of "glory" (except for Perdition). Satan and those that chose to follow him using their agency will not. Keeping our eye single to the glory of God, I think, takes an additional significance when one realizes that part of His glory comes from His Celestial body. This may be how a "fullness" is received, like buying a computer that comes fully loaded. If experience, perception, understanding, social behavior etc. is contained within the wiring of the brain, then one can truly receive all that the Father has at the moment of receiving a Celestial body. If it is only contained in the spirit, then the body is not so important and adds little to becoming like God. The physical brain is just a part of the physical body. Only the body can incorporate the ability to manipulate the physical universe with the abilities of the spirit world of intelligence, will, and agency. Perhaps, the spirit needs the body to survive over a long period. That would explain why demons inhabit the bodies of pigs and humans. BTW, some of these carnal desires that you condemn are just those instincts needed to reproduce on this fallen world. Of course, Satan has perverted these desires also, and since these urges and instincts are so strong and important, they offer yet another way for Satan to tempt us and God to test us.

Upcountry

Edited by Upcountry
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Something interesting about the human brain is its incredible adaptability. In essence our brains are always learning and changing. In the March 2004 edition of National Geographic Mag. there are several rather interesting articles about how our brain develops. One particular trait of our brain I find most astonishing is that our brain adapts to what we are doing and focusing on. As bazar as it may sound, what we do actually changes the physical characteristics of our brain. For example individuals that have learned to play the violin will develop recognizable differences in their brain. In fact a person will not be able to master the violin until the brain has created the physical characteristics needed. This is the reason one must practice over and over again the rigors of such activity in mastering a particular discipline.

What the brain does is make whatever we are doing repeatedly easier. We are creatures of our habits. What these articles also pointed out is that what we are involved in during our early years as children will greatly influence our adult abilities.

I want to insert a most important thought here. I believe that mothers play a most important role in the development of a child and thus in the development of a child’s brain. In reality there is no play time for children – their moments, especially repeated moments are shaping a life time of capabilities. Neural studies of human brain development bear this out. One other side note, many readers may remember that a few years back it was discovered that homosexual brain were different? Initially there was a great deal of propaganda that this difference proved that homosexuality was a genetic condition a person was born with. However, this discovery has vanished and little is talked about – the part of the brain that is different is that part that is shaped by our activity. This means that homosexuality is a learned or acquired ability in the same manner the one acquires the ability to play the violin. It also means that many traits we think of as talents are likely related to our childhood experiences.

But there is a caveat to all this - Our brain is very plastic. Even though the abilities we develop as a child will remain hard wired in our brain for our entire life we also have the ability to learn and develop new abilities for our entire life. Research indicates that acquiring new skills as a senior adult is important in maintaining our brains. Studying new fields for intellectual purposes is good activity for seniors as well as learning new skills like playing the piano or other physical disciplines like shooting baskets, playing golf or tennis – especially if we learn disciplines we never tried before in our life time.

I realize that for various medical reasons there are physical limitations and that we should not condemn others for their past. But I would point out that repentance is a change of mind. A change in what we do, what we study and our intellectual focus. The physical reality of our brain is exactly what the LDS teach – that changing from a natural man to a saint of G-d is a process and a discipline. It would appear that part of this process and discipline is a long term dedication to behaviors that will rewire our brains. And if I understand scriptures correctly, enduring to the end means that our continuing activities are part of the process. There is scientific backing to the LDS notion that being converted is only the beginning.

The Traveler

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I want to insert a most important thought here. I believe that mothers play a most important role in the development of a child and thus in the development of a child’s brain. In reality there is no play time for children – their moments, especially repeated moments are shaping a life time of capabilities. Neural studies of human brain development bear this out. One other side note, many readers may remember that a few years back it was discovered that homosexual brain were different? Initially there was a great deal of propaganda that this difference proved that homosexuality was a genetic condition a person was born with. However, this discovery has vanished and little is talked about – the part of the brain that is different is that part that is shaped by our activity. This means that homosexuality is a learned or acquired ability in the same manner the one acquires the ability to play the violin. It also means that many traits we think of as talents are likely related to our childhood experiences.

The Traveler

A study like that was reported in 6/23/2008 in the Washington Post. An excerpt quote is

"Those are some of the thorny questions that have been raised by a provocative new study that found striking differences between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals in both men and women.

Some scientists say the new findings are part of an increasingly convincing body of evidence that suggests sexual orientation results from fundamental developmental differences that are probably caused by hormonal exposures in the womb."

LDS believe that we were created as male and female in the pre-existence and are innocent at birth. We bring into this world distinct personalities that become apparent as we develop as children. Boys tend to play with guns: girls with dolls. A safe assumption is that sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture not just one or the other. As soon as one says that persons may repent of their sexuality, there is a tendency to judge them. I suspect there really are those souls that have been born into the wrong body/brain. Matter (here I mean hormones) is subject to probabilistic variations. I cannot put the burden of free choice on them to select their sexuality when that choice may not be theirs to make. Of course, whom I associate with is my choice and is not the same as judging them.

Edited by Upcountry
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Something interesting about the human brain is its incredible adaptability. In essence our brains are always learning and changing. In the March 2004 edition of National Geographic Mag. there are several rather interesting articles about how our brain develops. One particular trait of our brain I find most astonishing is that our brain adapts to what we are doing and focusing on. As bazar as it may sound, what we do actually changes the physical characteristics of our brain. For example individuals that have learned to play the violin will develop recognizable differences in their brain. In fact a person will not be able to master the violin until the brain has created the physical characteristics needed. This is the reason one must practice over and over again the rigors of such activity in mastering a particular discipline.

What the brain does is make whatever we are doing repeatedly easier. We are creatures of our habits. What these articles also pointed out is that what we are involved in during our early years as children will greatly influence our adult abilities.

I want to insert a most important thought here. I believe that mothers play a most important role in the development of a child and thus in the development of a child’s brain. In reality there is no play time for children – their moments, especially repeated moments are shaping a life time of capabilities. Neural studies of human brain development bear this out. One other side note, many readers may remember that a few years back it was discovered that homosexual brain were different? Initially there was a great deal of propaganda that this difference proved that homosexuality was a genetic condition a person was born with. However, this discovery has vanished and little is talked about – the part of the brain that is different is that part that is shaped by our activity. This means that homosexuality is a learned or acquired ability in the same manner the one acquires the ability to play the violin. It also means that many traits we think of as talents are likely related to our childhood experiences.

But there is a caveat to all this - Our brain is very plastic. Even though the abilities we develop as a child will remain hard wired in our brain for our entire life we also have the ability to learn and develop new abilities for our entire life. Research indicates that acquiring new skills as a senior adult is important in maintaining our brains. Studying new fields for intellectual purposes is good activity for seniors as well as learning new skills like playing the piano or other physical disciplines like shooting baskets, playing golf or tennis – especially if we learn disciplines we never tried before in our life time.

I realize that for various medical reasons there are physical limitations and that we should not condemn others for their past. But I would point out that repentance is a change of mind. A change in what we do, what we study and our intellectual focus. The physical reality of our brain is exactly what the LDS teach – that changing from a natural man to a saint of G-d is a process and a discipline. It would appear that part of this process and discipline is a long term dedication to behaviors that will rewire our brains. And if I understand scriptures correctly, enduring to the end means that our continuing activities are part of the process. There is scientific backing to the LDS notion that being converted is only the beginning.

The Traveler

That is not true for all parts of the brain, think about the sucking reflex in a newborn or crying. There are certainly functions that are there from the beginning without having done anything. But, thanks for the great comments.

Now, take this what you stated about the brain's capability and realize that God could "wire" the physical brain any way He pleases. An example of this is Lazarus. He was dead for 4 days. The human brain is mush by 4 days. All the wiring is gone. There is no connection there. There is no potential for even re-wiring as the neurons are dead and apoptotic. Jesus brought back Lazarus to the same person he was before he died, Lazarus. If Jesus, through the priesthood power of God, can wire the human brain to match an adult set of connections without it having to go through a childhood list of experiences to form the wiring then imagine what could happen at resurrection. Have you ever wondered how we inherit all that God has and all that was before? The body may serve that purpose. It may be the way to obtain the eternities. As for the Celestial resurrection there is one body, i.e - one brain. It may contain all the experience of all those that came before and this may be how we can become part of that never ending history and future as if all those experiences we had on our own. This may be how we do only the things that we see the Father do if we were able to "see" all that is in His brain. It is just something to ponder as of course this is not doctrine or has been revealed to my knowledge. But, we do know that when we are resurrected into a Kingdom, we inherit a fullness of that Kingdom.

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A study like that was reported in 6/23/2008 in the Washington Post. An excerpt quote is

"Those are some of the thorny questions that have been raised by a provocative new study that found striking differences between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals in both men and women.

Some scientists say the new findings are part of an increasingly convincing body of evidence that suggests sexual orientation results from fundamental developmental differences that are probably caused by hormonal exposures in the womb."

LDS believe that we were created as male and female in the pre-existence and are innocent at birth. We bring into this world distinct personalities that become apparent as we develop as children. Boys tend to play with guns: girls with dolls. A safe assumption is that sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture not just one or the other. As soon as one says that persons may repent of their sexuality, there is a tendency to judge them. I suspect there really are those souls that have been born into the wrong body/brain. Matter (here I mean hormones) is subject to probabilistic variations. I cannot put the burden of free choice on them to select their sexuality when that choice may not be theirs to make. Of course, whom I associate with is my choice and is not the same as judging them.

I agree. The human body is corrupted by the Fall. The spirit isn't corrupted by the Fall but can become so if it adopts the things we are exposed to here and takes them to heart. We can live in the world without becoming part of it. What we have to endure are the carnal influences and focus on spiritual ones. Everyone has a different set of stewardship, several of those stewardship sets and challenges of this world can emanate from the body. We know this is true as Paul describes the "thorn in the flesh". Even the healthiest brain in the world is still corrupt. The issue is that we all have been born into the "wrong body/brain" as you put it. We are to be tested according to the flesh. The test being trusting in the arm of the flesh or the spiritual influences. The tough part for a lot of people is distinguishing the two which is incredibly hard to do if one doesn't even believe there is a difference between the two.

One of the benefits of understanding the plan of salvation is to remember who we really are. This temporary stewardship is not who we really are. This temporary set of traits is not reflective of the spirit body's development. It is easy to point this out in more obvious cases such as a person with Down's syndrome. But, again, I would suggest that we all have a corrupted brain. The amount of corruption may differ but I have never heard of anyone who was born in this world without a corrupted brain. Christ's may have been minimally so but He was still tempted with food, fame, pain, power, etc. The test is whether we claim the corruption as our own or do we look beyond that to know that we are children of God underneath this facade and in doing so, put off the natural man. The degree to which we fall in love with natural self verses spiritual self is what is described as the desire of our heart. If one believes that the corrupted natural brain self is who they really are, then the desire of the heart has turned to things of this world, which treasure will turn to dust in the end. It is easy to point out this mistake in someone who is narcissistic but it also applies to people who are learned and claim it as their own. We put off the natural man by remaining humble.

Mossiah 3:19 " 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

And in verse 16 " 16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." In other words, all the things that come from nature, or from the Fall of Adam, Christ has atoned for those factors. And even little children have been exposed to that nature but they do not sin because God can separate those two factors, a spiritually clean self and a natural corrupted self for which the atonement makes it white as snow again. Beyond the age of accountability, of course, a person can incorporate the nature into self and express a love for carnal things and then they must repent to be clean again. But before the age of accountability the two natures are clearly different and the carnal is not allowed to affect the spirit quite yet.

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This is a metaphor I was reminded of, from my husband who used this to teach our kids about bad thoughts, family home evening lesson. I think he got it from his mission president, not sure.

Metaphor for the mind of man;

Consider an airplane on autopilot (this represents the body and mortal man). There are flight paths preprogrammed into the autopilot program that will take you to predetermined destinations (this represents the natural tendencies of the body and the genetically encoded thought patterns of the brain). The airplane and the autopilot programs are the “natural man” and if nothing is done to alter it, these are the pathways that will be taken by default. The airplane represents the body and the brain and its natural tendencies, what is called the “natural mind”. Now, imagine a pilot was placed in the cockpit which represents your spirit self “spiritual mind”. The problem is the pilot (spirit self) has had no training in flying a plane and has to learn on the job (reaching the age of accountability). This is a tough way to learn and so most, simply, let the autopilot take over and direct the plane where it will. Other pilots realize that they need to learn how to control the plane quickly and focus on that problem early. The limited ability to control the plane represents our limited spiritual influence on the body unless there is specific effort made (learn wisdom in your youth). Most people start out with some sense of urgency to figure out how to fly the plane (light of Christ). The urgency to figure out how to control the plane goes away if the pilot relies on the autopilot system (losing the light of Christ). As the pilot is trying to figure out how to get control of the autopilot there is a faint signal coming in over the radio, the airport radio tower is faintly asking if you need help and is willing to help. The radio tower represents the gospel teachings and the Holy Ghost influence. If we can stay tuned in then we can receive instruction but one has to listen very carefully to receive the instruction. A flight attendant lets the pilot know that she knows how to operate the radio and can help the pilot receive instruction (gift of the Holy Ghost). The flight attendant is aware of specific channels to keep the signal strong (the effect of covenants). The pilot also finds instructions on how to fly the plane in one of the compartments and starts to read quickly. The written instructions represent the prophets and the writings of the prophets.

In the meantime there is a lot of commotion in the back of the plane as the passengers realize there is no real pilot on board. The commotion represents the distractions and influences of the world that may pull the pilot away from directing the plane. Then someone knocks on the door and says “I’m a pilot, I can fly the plane”. The pilot (spirit self) replies “it’s okay I think I’ve got it”. The passenger replies; “well at least let me be your co-pilot”. The pilot agrees to accept the help. This passenger claiming to be a pilot represents Satan. He is lying; he really doesn’t want to help but take over the plane and direct it away from where you want to go. His methods are deceptive and are based in lies. At first it might sound like a good idea but they only pull a person away from the right path. The pilot can either let him in or not. The pilot can also let him control the plane for a while and then take back over. Some pilots let him co-pilot the plane and before they know it, the co-pilot has taken over the controls completely before the pilot really figures out how to control things. If we let Satan in our thoughts and give over control, eventually it will be nearly impossible to take that back over. This process usually starts slow with seemingly harmless choices but in the end it becomes overwhelming. This pretend co-pilot, though, is too wimpy to overpower the pilot directly and so tries to change the course by gaining control of the co-pilot controls, little by little. He realizes the best chance he has is to make the pilot think he can trust him and then slowly change where he wants to go. Once the pilot is convinced of changing the flight path to the co-pilots desired location the pilot starts to turn off the radio and tells the flight attendant, “It’s okay, I don’t need your help anymore”. The pilot then adopts the flight path of the deceptive co-pilot. The pilot then is changed and continues to desire the wrong flight paths even when he is not in the plane (this represents the effect of carnal thoughts on the spirit if they are taken in as one’s own – this continues even into the next life, when outside the “plane”, the body).

Using this metaphor has helped my children understand the relationships between carnal and spiritual influences. A key part of the metaphor, though, is that there is an autopilot function in the plane. Without it, there is no opposition to contend with. If the plane simply followed the pilot’s commands, then there is no difference in testing the pilot in a simulator verses the real situation. As in this life, there are variables that are out of our control we turn to God, humbly asking for help and in this way learn to live by faith. There is no need to learn to live by faith if the plane didn’t have a preset “mind of it’s own”. Likewise, our bodies have direction, they have instincts, desires, drives and even spontaneous thought, imagination, creativity, and provide false information that has to be interpreted by the spirit and altered. Otherwise, the default, natural man (autopilot), takes us to undesirable locations. Continuing with the metaphor, this autopilot situation is only temporary. I don’t think the perfected body will have such an issue. The “autopilot” feature (instinctive carnal drives) is part of the corruption created by the Fall. That corruption is corrected and overcome by Christ for all of us.

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This is a metaphor I was reminded of, from my husband who used this to teach our kids about bad thoughts, family home evening lesson. I think he got it from his mission president, not sure.

Metaphor for the mind of man;

Consider an airplane on autopilot (this represents the body and mortal man). There are flight paths preprogrammed into the autopilot program that will take you to predetermined destinations (this represents the natural tendencies of the body and the genetically encoded thought patterns of the brain). The airplane and the autopilot programs are the “natural man” and if nothing is done to alter it, these are the pathways that will be taken by default. The airplane represents the body and the brain and its natural tendencies, what is called the “natural mind”. Now, imagine a pilot was placed in the cockpit which represents your spirit self “spiritual mind”. The problem is the pilot (spirit self) has had no training in flying a plane and has to learn on the job (reaching the age of accountability). This is a tough way to learn and so most, simply, let the autopilot take over and direct the plane where it will. Other pilots realize that they need to learn how to control the plane quickly and focus on that problem early. The limited ability to control the plane represents our limited spiritual influence on the body unless there is specific effort made (learn wisdom in your youth). Most people start out with some sense of urgency to figure out how to fly the plane (light of Christ). The urgency to figure out how to control the plane goes away if the pilot relies on the autopilot system (losing the light of Christ). As the pilot is trying to figure out how to get control of the autopilot there is a faint signal coming in over the radio, the airport radio tower is faintly asking if you need help and is willing to help. The radio tower represents the gospel teachings and the Holy Ghost influence. If we can stay tuned in then we can receive instruction but one has to listen very carefully to receive the instruction. A flight attendant lets the pilot know that she knows how to operate the radio and can help the pilot receive instruction (gift of the Holy Ghost). The flight attendant is aware of specific channels to keep the signal strong (the effect of covenants). The pilot also finds instructions on how to fly the plane in one of the compartments and starts to read quickly. The written instructions represent the prophets and the writings of the prophets.

In the meantime there is a lot of commotion in the back of the plane as the passengers realize there is no real pilot on board. The commotion represents the distractions and influences of the world that may pull the pilot away from directing the plane. Then someone knocks on the door and says “I’m a pilot, I can fly the plane”. The pilot (spirit self) replies “it’s okay I think I’ve got it”. The passenger replies; “well at least let me be your co-pilot”. The pilot agrees to accept the help. This passenger claiming to be a pilot represents Satan. He is lying; he really doesn’t want to help but take over the plane and direct it away from where you want to go. His methods are deceptive and are based in lies. At first it might sound like a good idea but they only pull a person away from the right path. The pilot can either let him in or not. The pilot can also let him control the plane for a while and then take back over. Some pilots let him co-pilot the plane and before they know it, the co-pilot has taken over the controls completely before the pilot really figures out how to control things. If we let Satan in our thoughts and give over control, eventually it will be nearly impossible to take that back over. This process usually starts slow with seemingly harmless choices but in the end it becomes overwhelming. This pretend co-pilot, though, is too wimpy to overpower the pilot directly and so tries to change the course by gaining control of the co-pilot controls, little by little. He realizes the best chance he has is to make the pilot think he can trust him and then slowly change where he wants to go. Once the pilot is convinced of changing the flight path to the co-pilots desired location the pilot starts to turn off the radio and tells the flight attendant, “It’s okay, I don’t need your help anymore”. The pilot then adopts the flight path of the deceptive co-pilot. The pilot then is changed and continues to desire the wrong flight paths even when he is not in the plane (this represents the effect of carnal thoughts on the spirit if they are taken in as one’s own – this continues even into the next life, when outside the “plane”, the body).

Using this metaphor has helped my children understand the relationships between carnal and spiritual influences. A key part of the metaphor, though, is that there is an autopilot function in the plane. Without it, there is no opposition to contend with. If the plane simply followed the pilot’s commands, then there is no difference in testing the pilot in a simulator verses the real situation. As in this life, there are variables that are out of our control we turn to God, humbly asking for help and in this way learn to live by faith. There is no need to learn to live by faith if the plane didn’t have a preset “mind of it’s own”. Likewise, our bodies have direction, they have instincts, desires, drives and even spontaneous thought, imagination, creativity, and provide false information that has to be interpreted by the spirit and altered. Otherwise, the default, natural man (autopilot), takes us to undesirable locations. Continuing with the metaphor, this autopilot situation is only temporary. I don’t think the perfected body will have such an issue. The “autopilot” feature (instinctive carnal drives) is part of the corruption created by the Fall. That corruption is corrected and overcome by Christ for all of us.

Hmmmm - as a engineer and expert in artificial intelligence I find the Metaphor misleading. The autopilot on an airplane is a highly disciplined pre-programed operation of the aircraft based on predetermined parameters. Using the parameters considered under an aircraft under superscribed conditions is following exactly the correct path - whereas an enemy of G-d is estranged to discipline with no intention of following a correct path.

I have a hard time believing that the human brain is per-wired to sin. I think something is missing and that in essence the path followed through self pleasure and the lack of discipline (pre-planning) better describes failure and how one becomes an enemy of G-d.

The Traveler

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Hmmmm - as a engineer and expert in artificial intelligence I find the Metaphor misleading. The autopilot on an airplane is a highly disciplined pre-programed operation of the aircraft based on predetermined parameters. Using the parameters considered under an aircraft under superscribed conditions is following exactly the correct path - whereas an enemy of G-d is estranged to discipline with no intention of following a correct path.

I have a hard time believing that the human brain is per-wired to sin. I think something is missing and that in essence the path followed through self pleasure and the lack of discipline (pre-planning) better describes failure and how one becomes an enemy of G-d.

The Traveler

First of all, it is a metaphor...

If the pathway is directed towards carnal pursuits, things of dust and then one develops a love of those things, that is what makes the natural man an enemy to God. Carnal enticements can be very direct, sex, food, sleep, pleasure, self gratification etc. They don't have to be smoke and mirror deceptive enticements, they can be very specific just like Jesus was tempted with 3 very specific temptations. I am not sure why the exactness of the temptation would make you think it is not an enemy to God's plan.

The Garden of Eden temptation was very exact. One tree or the other. The temptation was not; either wander around without a purpose or eat of the tree of life. But, unlike the Garden of Eden, our choices are not all or nothing while we are here. It is not a single fork in the road, it is continual while we are here. We are constantly fighting the influences.

The sin is in the inaction by the pilot in the metaphor, not by the predesignated flight plan. The exposure to carnal things alone is not sin. To fight against the pulling enticing carnal desires is not sin. The enticements come from somewhere. Ultimately they came from the events of the Fall, the corruption that began at that moment. The body presents the opportunity to choose between carnal drives and spiritual ones. In the same way the Tree of Death did not sin, the body does not sin but provides an option. The deceptive lure towards carnality comes from Satan and at the same time Satan didn't have to be the Tree of Death in the garden.

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Let me ask you; when the lion is made to eat straw like an ox as opposed to killing and eating meat, what changed? Is the spiritual disposition of a lion to kill and eat meat or to eat straw? Is it the spirit or the flesh that changes during the millennium?

Answer: D&C 101:26 " 26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face.

27 And in that day whatsoever any man shall ask, it shall be given unto him.

28 And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man."

Seems here at least, the power of Satan to tempt man is associated with the flesh. At least they change at the same time, with the Fall he is given power to bruise the heel of man, and at the millennium when the flesh is changed he looses power to tempt. ... maybe it is coincidental.

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Seems here at least, the power of Satan to tempt man is associated with the flesh. At least they change at the same time, with the Fall he is given power to bruise the heel of man, and at the millennium when the flesh is changed he looses power to tempt. ... maybe it is coincidental.

I think in connection with this verse we need to remember that first it is the righteousness of the children of men which binds Satan.

Second, at the end of the millennium Satan will be let loose again and it will be a battle for the souls of men, and again, he will seek to tempt and destroy the human soul of anybody who will listen to him.

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First of all, it is a metaphor...

If the pathway is directed towards carnal pursuits, things of dust and then one develops a love of those things, that is what makes the natural man an enemy to God. Carnal enticements can be very direct, sex, food, sleep, pleasure, self gratification etc. They don't have to be smoke and mirror deceptive enticements, they can be very specific just like Jesus was tempted with 3 very specific temptations. I am not sure why the exactness of the temptation would make you think it is not an enemy to God's plan.

The Garden of Eden temptation was very exact. One tree or the other. The temptation was not; either wander around without a purpose or eat of the tree of life. But, unlike the Garden of Eden, our choices are not all or nothing while we are here. It is not a single fork in the road, it is continual while we are here. We are constantly fighting the influences.

The sin is in the inaction by the pilot in the metaphor, not by the predesignated flight plan. The exposure to carnal things alone is not sin. To fight against the pulling enticing carnal desires is not sin. The enticements come from somewhere. Ultimately they came from the events of the Fall, the corruption that began at that moment. The body presents the opportunity to choose between carnal drives and spiritual ones. In the same way the Tree of Death did not sin, the body does not sin but provides an option. The deceptive lure towards carnality comes from Satan and at the same time Satan didn't have to be the Tree of Death in the garden.

I have a hard time with this symbolism. It has been my observation that those following a path of sin to destruction really are not going such direction fully knowing and planning what they are getting themselves into. That a pre-programming or auto steering is not really what is going on with a natural man. Something more like a river not following any plan but rather taking the easy path of least resistance is what makes the natural result crocked.

The Traveler

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Let me ask you; when the lion is made to eat straw like an ox as opposed to killing and eating meat, what changed? Is the spiritual disposition of a lion to kill and eat meat or to eat straw? Is it the spirit or the flesh that changes during the millennium?

....

I think the statement of a lion eating straw is symbolic and not actual. Breaking down straw is quite difficult and would require more than a change of spiritual attitude. The changes necessary (including teeth) would likely cange the actual physical appearance enough to make the creature unrecognizable as a lion. :D

The Traveler

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I think in connection with this verse we need to remember that first it is the righteousness of the children of men which binds Satan.

Second, at the end of the millennium Satan will be let loose again and it will be a battle for the souls of men, and again, he will seek to tempt and destroy the human soul of anybody who will listen to him.

The righteousness of men triggers the binding but God is the one who can either let loose or bind. The association I was pointing out is irregardless of the trigger. We were talking more about the mechanisms of how opposition is introduced.

So, are you suggesting there is no alteration to the human body to allow it to not die during the millennium?

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The righteousness of men triggers the binding but God is the one who can either let loose or bind. The association I was pointing out is irregardless of the trigger. We were talking more about the mechanisms of how opposition is introduced.

So, are you suggesting there is no alteration to the human body to allow it to not die during the millennium?

Yes - I strongly believe that if two righteous saints stood before you; one pre-millennium and one post-millennium that there would be no discernible difference - even to G-d.

The Traveler

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I have a hard time with this symbolism. It has been my observation that those following a path of sin to destruction really are not going such direction fully knowing and planning what they are getting themselves into. That a pre-programming or auto steering is not really what is going on with a natural man. Something more like a river not following any plan but rather taking the easy path of least resistance is what makes the natural result crocked.

The Traveler

Fine, for your benefit, change the metaphor to be an airplane whose autopilot is malfunctioned and pulls in a direction off course.

There is a plan for nature which is to be telestial in nature; self preservation, survival, self centered goals and drives, survival of the fittest, etc. But, again, you are mistakenly assuming that my metaphor suggests the plane (the body) can sin. It cannot. It can only do what it does by nature. It can create adulterous drives, drive for self gratification, it can alter perception, misdirect, imagine, create information that is not exact, mistake, misconceive, confabulate, hunger, thirst, fear, release adrenaline, lose memory, forget, create an incorrect emotional response, dream, create a sense of pride based in appearance (racism or riches) etc. None of those things are sin in and of their self just like money is not a sin but the love of those things, the desire to continue in those things is a sin. The mortal body as it is now, is of this world, it is dust and will return to dust. A change has to take place to make it one of glory. We try to put off the natural man and sanctify the body but it is not sanctified totally until it is transformed or raised in resurrection. In the meantime it is fleshy, carnal and corrupt.

When a person with Tourette's yells out an explicative, curses, or has a motor tic that results in a rude gesture; is that the spirit of the person or the body? And who is accountable for that?

Who sinned to make the man who was born blinded? ... there was no sin. Why can't you accept a faulty body that naturally pulls away from the things of God?

We are a peculiar people, we go against the norm, we pull away from what comes natural. There are few that do that. Most go with the natural. The majority of people in this world do not have control of the plane but still head in certain directions. People can create vast amounts of treasures, the test is whether the treasure is one that turns to dust or those that last. The people that create treasures are productive but in ways that are not eternal. They are not non-productive, they are not non-learned but they are dependent in the arm of the flesh and learning of man. The ways of man is not "no way", it is mammon.

The parable of the unjust steward is difficult to understand but one that shows Christ's view of us having two masters, which I would suggest is the same as two minds which David O Mckay and Paul discuss. It was after that parable in which Christ gave the statement that we cannot serve two masters. But, if you think about that carefully, then that is a statement that we have two masters and have to pick one. That is the test.

Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) wrote:

Worldly-minded men do not neglect provision for their future years, … while the ‘children of light,’ or those who believe spiritual wealth to be above all earthly possessions, are less energetic, prudent, or wise. …

“… Emulate the unjust steward and the lovers of mammon [money], not in their dishonesty, cupidity, and miserly hoarding of the wealth that is at best transitory, but in their zeal, forethought, and provision for the future.”

Here Elder Talmage explains that worldly minded men can have specific goals and do it with "zeal, forethought and provision for the future". That does not sound at all like a no-direction drive. The parable of the unjust steward tells us that we should have the same zeal but over the right things. The same statement is made when we use the metaphor of being blessed for hungering and thirsting after righteousness (as opposed to hungering and thirsting after the things of this world). The metaphor of taking on the cross of Christ is to leave this body, give up this body for the right things. When we take on the flesh and blood of the sacrament we are giving up the drives of this body in place of the body of Christ which was sanctified and does not have the same drives. We are baptized to clean the body. We are washed and anointed to symbolically suggest a separation from the drives of the body. That is the battle we face. No greater love hath a man than to lay down his life (to forsake the things of this world and to forsake the drives of the body) for things that really are important.

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The righteousness of men triggers the binding but God is the one who can either let loose or bind. The association I was pointing out is irregardless of the trigger. We were talking more about the mechanisms of how opposition is introduced.

So, are you suggesting there is no alteration to the human body to allow it to not die during the millennium?

I will seek to clarify my comment with regard to your previous comment I was responding to. In your previous comment, you mention the power of Satan to tempt is associated with the flesh, then you speak of Satan's inability to tempt us during the millennium.

I understand your comment as to say, people during the millennium are no longer "flesh" and are unable to be tempted by the adversary.

In light of this understanding, I merely pointed out that at the end of the millennium Satan will be loosed again and he will began again tempting people to turn away from the gospel, from Christ.

Thus, I don't agree with the interpretation that Satan's power to tempt is associated with the "flesh" as I see you representing it.

The last question I am unsure of its intent. I never suggested anything pertaining to our bodies, solely Satan's ability to tempt us.

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