"Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"


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Fine, for your benefit, change the metaphor to be an airplane whose autopilot is malfunctioned and pulls in a direction off course.

There is a plan for nature which is to be telestial in nature; self preservation, survival, self centered goals and drives, survival of the fittest, etc. But, again, you are mistakenly assuming that my metaphor suggests the plane (the body) can sin. It cannot. It can only do what it does by nature. It can create adulterous drives, drive for self gratification, it can alter perception, misdirect, imagine, create information that is not exact, mistake, misconceive, confabulate, hunger, thirst, fear, release adrenaline, lose memory, forget, create an incorrect emotional response, dream, create a sense of pride based in appearance (racism or riches) etc. None of those things are sin in and of their self just like money is not a sin but the love of those things, the desire to continue in those things is a sin. The mortal body as it is now, is of this world, it is dust and will return to dust. A change has to take place to make it one of glory. We try to put off the natural man and sanctify the body but it is not sanctified totally until it is transformed or raised in resurrection. In the meantime it is fleshy, carnal and corrupt.

When a person with Tourette's yells out an explicative, curses, or has a motor tic that results in a rude gesture; is that the spirit of the person or the body? And who is accountable for that?

Who sinned to make the man who was born blinded? ... there was no sin. Why can't you accept a faulty body that naturally pulls away from the things of God?

We are a peculiar people, we go against the norm, we pull away from what comes natural. There are few that do that. Most go with the natural. The majority of people in this world do not have control of the plane but still head in certain directions. People can create vast amounts of treasures, the test is whether the treasure is one that turns to dust or those that last. The people that create treasures are productive but in ways that are not eternal. They are not non-productive, they are not non-learned but they are dependent in the arm of the flesh and learning of man. The ways of man is not "no way", it is mammon.

The parable of the unjust steward is difficult to understand but one that shows Christ's view of us having two masters, which I would suggest is the same as two minds which David O Mckay and Paul discuss. It was after that parable in which Christ gave the statement that we cannot serve two masters. But, if you think about that carefully, then that is a statement that we have two masters and have to pick one. That is the test.

Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) wrote:

Worldly-minded men do not neglect provision for their future years, … while the ‘children of light,’ or those who believe spiritual wealth to be above all earthly possessions, are less energetic, prudent, or wise. …

“… Emulate the unjust steward and the lovers of mammon [money], not in their dishonesty, cupidity, and miserly hoarding of the wealth that is at best transitory, but in their zeal, forethought, and provision for the future.”

Here Elder Talmage explains that worldly minded men can have specific goals and do it with "zeal, forethought and provision for the future". That does not sound at all like a no-direction drive. The parable of the unjust steward tells us that we should have the same zeal but over the right things. The same statement is made when we use the metaphor of being blessed for hungering and thirsting after righteousness (as opposed to hungering and thirsting after the things of this world). The metaphor of taking on the cross of Christ is to leave this body, give up this body for the right things. When we take on the flesh and blood of the sacrament we are giving up the drives of this body in place of the body of Christ which was sanctified and does not have the same drives. We are baptized to clean the body. We are washed and anointed to symbolically suggest a separation from the drives of the body. That is the battle we face. No greater love hath a man than to lay down his life (to forsake the things of this world and to forsake the drives of the body) for things that really are important.

Let me show you something in scripture. Matthew 17:

14 ¶And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and preverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

I would point you to a few things that perhaps you have missed. We have a situation of a child - meaning someone not of accountable age. And this child did stuff that was crazy - and what was the cause? It was not his physical body but a unclean spirit that had taken control and Jesus cast out that unclean spirit devil and the child was healed.

Because this was a child that could not sin - how was it that the child was possessed by a unclean spirit? I am not sure I can answer that question except to say that I do not believe it was because the child had a carnal body. If it was so then all children with carnal bodies would be so possessed.

The Traveler

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I will seek to clarify my comment with regard to your previous comment I was responding to. In your previous comment, you mention the power of Satan to tempt is associated with the flesh, then you speak of Satan's inability to tempt us during the millennium.

I understand your comment as to say, people during the millennium are no longer "flesh" and are unable to be tempted by the adversary.

In light of this understanding, I merely pointed out that at the end of the millennium Satan will be loosed again and he will began again tempting people to turn away from the gospel, from Christ.

Thus, I don't agree with the interpretation that Satan's power to tempt is associated with the "flesh" as I see you representing it.

The last question I am unsure of its intent. I never suggested anything pertaining to our bodies, solely Satan's ability to tempt us.

The last question in in relation to the first part in that I am asking about your understanding of a change in the "flesh" which takes place as part of the millennium to allow people to live longer. "Flesh" that I was referring to was that which Paul talks about in Corinthians "“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me."

In the LDS guide to the scriptures Flesh has several meanings; "Flesh has several meanings: (1) the soft tissue that makes up the bodies of mankind, animals, fowls, or fish; (2) mortality; or (3) the physical or carnal nature of man." The carnal nature of man changes during the millennium as well as the state of mortality.

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The carnal nature of man changes during the millennium as well as the state of mortality.

Understood. I agree that our bodies receive a change. I have heard different thoughts pertaining to this change; although, I tend to believe it will be something similar to the three Nephites change within their body.

I am not sure I agree with the sentiment that "the carnal nature of man" changes as well as the state of mortality. I agree the state of mortality changes such that those in millennium will not experience death and other ailments we face now.

I assume the carnal nature of man will be no different than the carnal nature of those who were with Enoch before the city was received unto the Lord.

Would you clarify your meaning regarding "the carnal nature of man changes"? I am more inclined to think that the change is the individual choice to be righteous, not a physical or spiritual change like unto our mortal state.

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Let me show you something in scripture. Matthew 17:

I would point you to a few things that perhaps you have missed. We have a situation of a child - meaning someone not of accountable age. And this child did stuff that was crazy - and what was the cause? It was not his physical body but a unclean spirit that had taken control and Jesus cast out that unclean spirit devil and the child was healed.

Because this was a child that could not sin - how was it that the child was possessed by a unclean spirit? I am not sure I can answer that question except to say that I do not believe it was because the child had a carnal body. If it was so then all children with carnal bodies would be so possessed.

The Traveler

Why do you take such a hard line about it not being the child's body?

It is not true that all bodies are the same. We are all given different challenges and "thorns in the flesh". Not all children are born blind and yet Jesus cured that person of his blindness. The reason you can't understand this situation is because of your hard line against the ideas that the body can act of itself and that we are all born with corrupted bodies by way of the Fall. What is the purpose of such a hard line against that idea. It adds nothing to the gospel doctrine as I see it and it only takes away from understanding of such situations as the one you presented. To me the child that is a lunatic is easy to understand. I've seen many of them in my line of work.

How are the people of Jesus time, the meridian of time, to understand a child that is a "lunatic". They would say that the child was possessed. Do you think the scriptures should have been more specific as to the cause, like: "There was a child with Schizophrenia." or "There was a child with pre-fronal medial temporal dysplasia"? or "There was a child with periventricular hemorhage and cerebral palsy"?

It is funny that on one hand you can easily call something symbolic and yet in another verse you have to take it as literal just because the details could not be inserted. Which disciple of Christ you think knew about all the physical causes of lunacy in childhood that could record such information? Without that knowledge the only thing that the disciple could call it is "an evil spirit". The child was "cured" as what happens with illnesses being cured. Why didn't you take that literally? You can't have it both ways.

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Understood. I agree that our bodies receive a change. I have heard different thoughts pertaining to this change; although, I tend to believe it will be something similar to the three Nephites change within their body.

I am not sure I agree with the sentiment that "the carnal nature of man" changes as well as the state of mortality. I agree the state of mortality changes such that those in millennium will not experience death and other ailments we face now.

I assume the carnal nature of man will be no different than the carnal nature of those who were with Enoch before the city was received unto the Lord.

Would you clarify your meaning regarding "the carnal nature of man changes"? I am more inclined to think that the change is the individual choice to be righteous, not a physical or spiritual change like unto our mortal state.

I think I am referring to the verse in D&C 101; " 24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed;

25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the dearth.

26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face."

All the elements become new so that the glory of God can dwell on the Earth, just like when one meets with God now, there has to be a transfiguration of some kind.

Erastus Snow in Revelations and Restoration said; "A change will come upon the inhabitants of the Earth similar to that experienced by the three Nephite disciples who were translated. By revelation Moroni learned what is explained in 3 Nephi 28:39. " 38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens."

I think it says there pretty clearly that a change in the body was enough to keep Satan from having any power over them. I am not sure why that is such a hard principle to swallow.

Revelations of the Restoration page 733; “When the Lord comes again, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Article of Faith 10). Isaiah prophesied of “a new earth” during the Millennium (Isaiah 65:17). All that is corruptible – everything of a telestial order – will be destroyed, for a terrestrial or Edenic law will rule during the Millennium. This test affirms that when Adam fell, the whole earth fell – including everything in the plant and animal kingdoms. Prior to the fall of Adam there was neither death nor corruption of any sort in these kingdoms or in any other place in the world that Adam inhabited. With the return of Christ, all things will return to a state like that known in Eden.”

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I think it says there pretty clearly that a change in the body was enough to keep Satan from having any power over them. I am not sure why that is such a hard principle to swallow.

Revelations of the Restoration page 733; “When the Lord comes again, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Article of Faith 10). Isaiah prophesied of “a new earth” during the Millennium (Isaiah 65:17). All that is corruptible – everything of a telestial order – will be destroyed, for a terrestrial or Edenic law will rule during the Millennium. This test affirms that when Adam fell, the whole earth fell – including everything in the plant and animal kingdoms. Prior to the fall of Adam there was neither death nor corruption of any sort in these kingdoms or in any other place in the world that Adam inhabited. With the return of Christ, all things will return to a state like that known in Eden.”

We appear to have agree on this point, "I am not sure why that is such a hard principle to swallow."

We know in scripture that "there must be an opposition in all things" otherwise the plan of God would be frustrated.

We are also informed that great will be the peace of our children because they shall be all taught of the Lord, which also implies that the children are believing the doctrines and applying the doctrines in exactness (Sons of Ammon) following what they have been taught.

However, where then does our opposition stem from if the adversary is unable to tempt us or to try us? I now understand where you are stemming your discussion from, I think. The last paragraph mentions "Edenic law" which is interesting because within Eden the adversary was able to tempt and try Adam and Eve, and there bodies were not carnal as you have described...assuming I have understood your implications now.

Even in the Millennium something must cause "opposition" otherwise the plan of God will be frustrated.

But I must say, I am just a little "jealous" of children who are going to be born within the Millennium. They must have been the weakest ones of us...well this statement makes me feel better ( :lol: ).

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Why do you take such a hard line about it not being the child's body?

It is not true that all bodies are the same. We are all given different challenges and "thorns in the flesh". Not all children are born blind and yet Jesus cured that person of his blindness. The reason you can't understand this situation is because of your hard line against the ideas that the body can act of itself and that we are all born with corrupted bodies by way of the Fall. What is the purpose of such a hard line against that idea. It adds nothing to the gospel doctrine as I see it and it only takes away from understanding of such situations as the one you presented. To me the child that is a lunatic is easy to understand. I've seen many of them in my line of work.

How are the people of Jesus time, the meridian of time, to understand a child that is a "lunatic". They would say that the child was possessed. Do you think the scriptures should have been more specific as to the cause, like: "There was a child with Schizophrenia." or "There was a child with pre-fronal medial temporal dysplasia"? or "There was a child with periventricular hemorhage and cerebral palsy"?

It is funny that on one hand you can easily call something symbolic and yet in another verse you have to take it as literal just because the details could not be inserted. Which disciple of Christ you think knew about all the physical causes of lunacy in childhood that could record such information? Without that knowledge the only thing that the disciple could call it is "an evil spirit". The child was "cured" as what happens with illnesses being cured. Why didn't you take that literally? You can't have it both ways.

Two points: First the scripture tells us Jesus rebuked the devil (unclean spirit) not the carnal body of the child. This would clearly indicate that the cause was the devil not the body of the child. In addition the scripture is giving witness to an event rather than describing a principle or thought. Note the Jesus very often used symbolism in teaching principles. This is a great clue concerning things symbolic or events described.

Second point: Brigham Young taught that there was not a sickness or malady that could befall a human or bring pain that was not a direct cause of a unclean spirit. Jesus taught that there is no difference in healing someone or saying that their sins were forgiven.

I believe you brought up the idea that things would be different during the millennium. The scriptures tells that the difference and reason that there will be no sickness is because Satan will be bound. If there are other possibilities - I would be interested in scriptural reference.

The Traveler

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Two points: First the scripture tells us Jesus rebuked the devil (unclean spirit) not the carnal body of the child. This would clearly indicate that the cause was the devil not the body of the child. In addition the scripture is giving witness to an event rather than describing a principle or thought. Note the Jesus very often used symbolism in teaching principles. This is a great clue concerning things symbolic or events described.

Second point: Brigham Young taught that there was not a sickness or malady that could befall a human or bring pain that was not a direct cause of a unclean spirit. Jesus taught that there is no difference in healing someone or saying that their sins were forgiven.

I believe you brought up the idea that things would be different during the millennium. The scriptures tells that the difference and reason that there will be no sickness is because Satan will be bound. If there are other possibilities - I would be interested in scriptural reference.

The Traveler

Ah, you shouldn't have gone to Brigham Young, it is with him that I have the most stimulating quotes about this topic.

Well, since you quoted Brigham Young lets give his full impression of the situation and not a partial one; “You are aware that many think that the Devil has rule and power over both body and spirit. Now, I want to tell you that he does not hold any power over man, only so far as the body overcomes the spirit that is in a man, through yielding to the spirit of evil. The spirit that the Lord puts into a tabernacle of flesh, is under the dictation of the Lord Almighty; but the spirit and body are united in order that the spirit may have a tabernacle, and be exalted ; and the spirit is influenced by the body, and the body by the spirit.

In the first place the spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed.”

Knowing the plan of salvation, like I said before, we all can claim there is no corruption without the influence of an unclean spirit as Adam and Eve were influenced by such an unclean spirit and thus the Fall of man introduced malady of all kind. Yes, that is a teaching of the gospel, which is the plan of salvation. This is what is stated in 2 Nephi 2:27-29; " 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom."

Lehi taught his sons that Adam fell so that we might be free "according to the flesh" thus knowing good and evil and that the power of the devil is through the "will of the flesh". It says pretty clearly in verse 29; the will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate. Looking at Brigham Young's statements and Lehi's and David O. Mckay's and Paul's; what do you think "the will of the flesh and the evil therein" means?

Brigham Young also stated; “The spirit which inhabits these tabernacles naturally loves truth, it naturally loves light and intelligence, it naturally loves virtue, God and godliness; but being so closely united with the flesh their sympathies are blended, and their union being necessary to the possession of a fullness of joy to both, the spirit is indeed subject to be influenced by the sin that is in the mortal body, and to be overcome by it and by the power of the Devil, unless it is constantly enlightened by that spirit which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which is imparted through the Gospel In this, and this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil.”

What? the sin is in the mortal body? Note; "their" sympathies is plural, meaning there is a sympathy that comes from the spirit and another from the body and "this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil. Again, Brigham Young said "but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both." I don't think you can separate the body and the "unclean spirit" as easily as you want to. The body is the conduit in which the devil has power.

A car accident is really caused by people, not cars but we still call it a car accident, not a people accident. The "healing of the body" is the same as alleviating the effects of the Fall which was put into motion by the enticing influences of the Devil. They cannot be separated from that event. To interchange the words is not difficult to someone who understands the plan and the need for such carnal influences to bring about God's plan. The Fall is the introduction of all things "unclean" to those who were clean.

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Ah, you shouldn't have gone to Brigham Young, it is with him that I have the most stimulating quotes about this topic.

Well, since you quoted Brigham Young lets give his full impression of the situation and not a partial one; “You are aware that many think that the Devil has rule and power over both body and spirit. Now, I want to tell you that he does not hold any power over man, only so far as the body overcomes the spirit that is in a man, through yielding to the spirit of evil. The spirit that the Lord puts into a tabernacle of flesh, is under the dictation of the Lord Almighty; but the spirit and body are united in order that the spirit may have a tabernacle, and be exalted ; and the spirit is influenced by the body, and the body by the spirit.

In the first place the spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed.”

Knowing the plan of salvation, like I said before, we all can claim there is no corruption without the influence of an unclean spirit as Adam and Eve were influenced by such an unclean spirit and thus the Fall of man introduced malady of all kind. Yes, that is a teaching of the gospel, which is the plan of salvation. This is what is stated in 2 Nephi 2:27-29; " 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom."

Lehi taught his sons that Adam fell so that we might be free "according to the flesh" thus knowing good and evil and that the power of the devil is through the "will of the flesh". It says pretty clearly in verse 29; the will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate. Looking at Brigham Young's statements and Lehi's and David O. Mckay's and Paul's; what do you think "the will of the flesh and the evil therein" means?

Brigham Young also stated; “The spirit which inhabits these tabernacles naturally loves truth, it naturally loves light and intelligence, it naturally loves virtue, God and godliness; but being so closely united with the flesh their sympathies are blended, and their union being necessary to the possession of a fullness of joy to both, the spirit is indeed subject to be influenced by the sin that is in the mortal body, and to be overcome by it and by the power of the Devil, unless it is constantly enlightened by that spirit which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which is imparted through the Gospel In this, and this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil.”

What? the sin is in the mortal body? Note; "their" sympathies is plural, meaning there is a sympathy that comes from the spirit and another from the body and "this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil. Again, Brigham Young said "but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both." I don't think you can separate the body and the "unclean spirit" as easily as you want to. The body is the conduit in which the devil has power.

A car accident is really caused by people, not cars but we still call it a car accident, not a people accident. The "healing of the body" is the same as alleviating the effects of the Fall which was put into motion by the enticing influences of the Devil. They cannot be separated from that event. To interchange the words is not difficult to someone who understands the plan and the need for such carnal influences to bring about God's plan. The Fall is the introduction of all things "unclean" to those who were clean.

I think you have missed the most important point - That is the root cause is Satan (the Devil) not the body or the brain. I think what you have been implying is that the body or brain of man does things of its own. That is the point I do not accept. I completely accept that Satan has in roads through the body and our brains (part of our physical body). I will even agree that Satan has some advantages in influences through our physical endowment of our bodies. The only point upon which I disagree - and perhaps I have misunderstood you - is that our physical body will lead anyone astray without the influence of Satan. In fact I do not believe we can get sick without the influence of Satan. I am quite sure that the scriptures are very explicit in teaching that the reason for death is because of Satan's influence.

The point being that the cure (in all cases) to such influences of Satan is the healing power of Christ through the atonement. Thus it is that our struggle in our mortal experience and the very purpose is to choose the influence - of Christ over Satan.

I would agree that the advantage of Satan is through the influences he has on our physical endowment and the advantage of Christ is through our veiled spirit.

But I would go farther with this thought and say that we can actually turn our physical endowment to our advantage in Christ. Jesus often talked about seeing with out seeing or hearing without hearing. When our spirit is in tune with our physical endowment we can better connect to great blessing and power from on high. Then not only do we touch but we feel, not only do we hear but we listen, not only do we see but we have vision.

We are told that our weakness (I believe it to be that which is physical) will be made strong in the L-rd. Our physical bodies can be turned from our weakness to our strong advantage. I believe this is a point you have missed. It is my impression that you think our physical body is forever the enemy of G-d and a force of its own that we must battle through out existence. And it is that thought that I do not accept and that I challenge.

The Traveler

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I think you have missed the most important point - That is the root cause is Satan (the Devil) not the body or the brain. I think what you have been implying is that the body or brain of man does things of its own. That is the point I do not accept. I completely accept that Satan has in roads through the body and our brains (part of our physical body). I will even agree that Satan has some advantages in influences through our physical endowment of our bodies. The only point upon which I disagree - and perhaps I have misunderstood you - is that our physical body will lead anyone astray without the influence of Satan. In fact I do not believe we can get sick without the influence of Satan. I am quite sure that the scriptures are very explicit in teaching that the reason for death is because of Satan's influence.

The point being that the cure (in all cases) to such influences of Satan is the healing power of Christ through the atonement. Thus it is that our struggle in our mortal experience and the very purpose is to choose the influence - of Christ over Satan.

I would agree that the advantage of Satan is through the influences he has on our physical endowment and the advantage of Christ is through our veiled spirit.

But I would go farther with this thought and say that we can actually turn our physical endowment to our advantage in Christ. Jesus often talked about seeing with out seeing or hearing without hearing. When our spirit is in tune with our physical endowment we can better connect to great blessing and power from on high. Then not only do we touch but we feel, not only do we hear but we listen, not only do we see but we have vision.

We are told that our weakness (I believe it to be that which is physical) will be made strong in the L-rd. Our physical bodies can be turned from our weakness to our strong advantage. I believe this is a point you have missed. It is my impression that you think our physical body is forever the enemy of G-d and a force of its own that we must battle through out existence. And it is that thought that I do not accept and that I challenge.

The Traveler

Thanks for your response.

I believe I have said on many occasions that it was Satan's influence in the garden of Eden that led to the Fall and the corruption of the body occurred with the Fall. So, in that sense, that the root cause of why there is a "natural mind" is Satan. The important aspect of the discussion though is that where the rubber meets the road (so-to-speak) is the interaction of the natural mind and the spiritual mind. As Brigham Young describes it as warfare between these two forces being within us, that is where the battle between Christ and Satan takes place. And this is where David O. Mckay and Paul describe the opposition to be as it pertains to our experience in the flesh. In the pre-mortal life it was a spirit versus spirit war. Here it is a spirit to spirit (the light of Christ or the Holy ghost to our spirit) versus spirit to body (Satan's power over the carnal body) battle.

I don't think I have ever unlinked Satan to the body. And I have stated that the body is like any tool, like money, it can be used for good and evil. The default drive of the body though is evil. In other words, if the controls aren't learned or mastered then the natural man is an enemy to God. Brigham Young likened it to the reigns of a wild horse. The body is like a wild horse, naturally. But when the wild horse is broken it can become domesticated and mastered. The airplane metaphor was an attempt at that same metaphor Brigham Young used but a more modern one - same idea.

Brigham Young stated that the battle is a lifelong one. I believe we have to endure to the end. He said, only upon death (leaving the corrupted body behind) do we come unto His rest fully for those that have expressed righteous desires. But, as we gain mastery over the body the burden is lightened. I agree with that. There is no reward of joy for choosing spiritual things if there are no other options. Just like Adams ability to experience joy is limited in that state of paradise. It wasn't until he had a fallen body that he could no experience joy because of the misery that came with the body. Paul realized that he didn't really want to get rid of the thorn in the flesh because it is through the thorn in the flesh that he becomes closer to God. There is nothing wrong with the idea of having to endure the thorn in the flesh throughout our whole life, in fact that may be beneficial.

2 Corinthians 12: " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

I am not sure what area of doctrine is threatened by a body that actively pulls us away from spiritual influences, especially if we can say that it came about because of Satan. What specific doctrine is threatened by that idea?

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Thanks for your response.

I believe I have said on many occasions that it was Satan's influence in the garden of Eden that led to the Fall and the corruption of the body occurred with the Fall. So, in that sense, that the root cause of why there is a "natural mind" is Satan. The important aspect of the discussion though is that where the rubber meets the road (so-to-speak) is the interaction of the natural mind and the spiritual mind. As Brigham Young describes it as warfare between these two forces being within us, that is where the battle between Christ and Satan takes place. And this is where David O. Mckay and Paul describe the opposition to be as it pertains to our experience in the flesh. In the pre-mortal life it was a spirit versus spirit war. Here it is a spirit to spirit (the light of Christ or the Holy ghost to our spirit) versus spirit to body (Satan's power over the carnal body) battle.

I don't think I have ever unlinked Satan to the body. And I have stated that the body is like any tool, like money, it can be used for good and evil. The default drive of the body though is evil. In other words, if the controls aren't learned or mastered then the natural man is an enemy to God. Brigham Young likened it to the reigns of a wild horse. The body is like a wild horse, naturally. But when the wild horse is broken it can become domesticated and mastered. The airplane metaphor was an attempt at that same metaphor Brigham Young used but a more modern one - same idea.

Brigham Young stated that the battle is a lifelong one. I believe we have to endure to the end. He said, only upon death (leaving the corrupted body behind) do we come unto His rest fully for those that have expressed righteous desires. But, as we gain mastery over the body the burden is lightened. I agree with that. There is no reward of joy for choosing spiritual things if there are no other options. Just like Adams ability to experience joy is limited in that state of paradise. It wasn't until he had a fallen body that he could no experience joy because of the misery that came with the body. Paul realized that he didn't really want to get rid of the thorn in the flesh because it is through the thorn in the flesh that he becomes closer to God. There is nothing wrong with the idea of having to endure the thorn in the flesh throughout our whole life, in fact that may be beneficial.

2 Corinthians 12: " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

I am not sure what area of doctrine is threatened by a body that actively pulls us away from spiritual influences, especially if we can say that it came about because of Satan. What specific doctrine is threatened by that idea?

Hmmm - thought I would hold off and see what anyone else had to post. Does not look like anyone else has an opinion to add with the exception of Anddenex and it looks like they give up some time ago. I would suggest that debating this topic is a waist of time. Or as a friend of mine once said - If no one is interested in taking time to listen why do you think it so important to say something convincing? :)

The Traveler

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Hmmm - thought I would hold off and see what anyone else had to post. Does not look like anyone else has an opinion to add with the exception of Anddenex and it looks like they give up some time ago. I would suggest that debating this topic is a waist of time. Or as a friend of mine once said - If no one is interested in taking time to listen why do you think it so important to say something convincing? :)

The Traveler

Exactly, well that is what is so amazing to me. Obtaining a body to be like God is such a unique doctrine but we really do not have a great understanding of why. We can quote scriptures as to the idea that it is required to have a fulness of joy but don't discuss why that is. We can say that we have to treat it like a temple but this does not allow for any understanding of its eternal significance. Maybe this is why, in part, I have such an interest in this topic. It is one of the top two reasons to sacrifice and risk all to come to this world and it is related to the reward we get after completing the test and yet it is barely understood. Those that don't want to think of the body as adding anything to the glory of a glorified being tend to suggest the body is nothing more than a covering. And yet if we think of the body adding anything more than just a covering or an interface then it can't be explained as to how it could add glory.

In response to the rhetorical question offered by your friend (answering in a general sense, not as it applies to this thread), I am sure Lehi may have wondered the same thing as he spoke to the people of Jerusalem and I am sure Samuel wondered the same thing as he was rejected by the nephites. Sometimes witnesses to the truth are given so that "that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." Again, I am not saying this as a defense against things said in this post, just saying that the rhetorical question given by your friend in a general sense suggests that he doesn't understand the power of being a witness, not only for good but for God's justice to those who do not give heed.

Mark 16; " 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every ccreature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ... sometimes the message given to "every creature" - even those that don't care to listen is for their damnation. The truthfulness of the topic is not based in its popularity. ... there are more people reading than those that post.

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There are many "sins" that are not related to the body but are more psychological.

How about pride, intimidation, shame, blackmail, carping, fear, and all of the "sins" that degrade one's ability to act as a free agent and see things clearly. Some of these may be done to another just to obtain power over the other individual rather than for the pleasures of this world and worldly gain.

Since there was no body, this was what Lucifer must have used to garner 1/3 of the votes in heaven. I suspect that it was a free vote. Good thing he did not win.

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I believe that religious principles are often the same as scientific principles. Some things cannot be ascertained directly but can be considered by "associated" data - aka Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. But there are things we can discover by observation and things we are given in revelation. I will list some of what I believe to be important principles:

1. A physical body is necessary for eternal life. Granted there is a lot of ambiguity in this statement surrounding the terms eternal and life. But especially for Celestial existence having possession of a physical body is, by revelation, a must necessity for which there is no mitigation.

2. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary in order to experience the 5 empirical senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

3. I believe a physical body is necessary to create life. There seems to be some conflicting data concerning this as a principle therefore I cannot "prove" it only to indicate that I cannot demonstrate any exceptions and I personally do not believe revelation conclusively states otherwise. But I am open to other possibilities. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary to create both spiritual as well as physical life.

4. I believe that revelation indicates that in order to understand and master the truth that a physical body is necessary. In particular it appears to me that the truth of the difference between good and evil can only be mastered with the possession of a physical body. I believe the revealed scriptural term concerning this knowledge is associated to the term "Perfect". But I believe something has been lost in the modern interpretation of this term and as a result many misunderstand the intent that the term has associated with "complete".

5. I believe that having even a flawed corrupt mortal body is an advantage in our quest towards G-dlyness; that no one is deterred or hindered in any way, shape or form in their progression towards G-dlyness in possessing a mortal body - In fact I believe our flawed mortal body to be our greatest asset to overcoming sin and taking advantage of the atonement of Christ. This is precisely why the physical must be involved - at minimum by proxy. It appears to me that some teach the opposite that our physical bodies are the only and primary distraction from G-dlyness but I see such thinking as confused concerning the necessity of a physical and contrary to the eternal good advantage of having a physical body. I believe the one and only actual deterrent to eternal exaltation is at its heart, core and essence a SPIRITUAL FAILURE!

The Traveler

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I believe that religious principles are often the same as scientific principles. Some things cannot be ascertained directly but can be considered by "associated" data - aka Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. But there are things we can discover by observation and things we are given in revelation. I will list some of what I believe to be important principles:

1. A physical body is necessary for eternal life. Granted there is a lot of ambiguity in this statement surrounding the terms eternal and life. But especially for Celestial existence having possession of a physical body is, by revelation, a must necessity for which there is no mitigation.

Depends what "Eternal Life" is. Does Satan have eternal life? Not in the sense we hope to - with children etc.. But will his consciousness exist forever?

2. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary in order to experience the 5 empirical senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

Spiritual and physical eyes may see different things. John 3 says unless you are born of water you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. Spiritual eyes might relate to faith or whatever we used in the Pre-existence. I agree with your "empirical" definition.

3. I believe a physical body is necessary to create life. There seems to be some conflicting data concerning this as a principle therefore I cannot "prove" it only to indicate that I cannot demonstrate any exceptions and I personally do not believe revelation conclusively states otherwise. But I am open to other possibilities. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary to create both spiritual as well as physical life.

The Father could create spiritual children. They could not affect the physical world. The Son created the earth and Paradise and at least a part of the universe. But He used the Father's power. The Son may have created the body of Adam. But I suspect that The Father had to actually breath life into that body, since these had the potential to be like

the Father. Maybe, The Son could create creatures on His own - but not potential gods.

4. I believe that revelation indicates that in order to understand and master the truth that a physical body is necessary. right In particular it appears to me that the truth of the difference between good and evil can only be mastered with the possession of a physical body. Lucifer knew the difference - at least enough to entice a large number to his side. He could persuade even without the complete truth. I believe the revealed scriptural term concerning this knowledge is associated to the term "Perfect". But I believe something has been lost in the modern interpretation of this term and as a result many misunderstand the intent that the term has associated with "complete". You can never be perfect: but you can always be kind.

5. I believe that having even a flawed corrupt mortal body is an advantage in our quest towards G-dlyness; that no one is deterred or hindered in any way, shape or form in their progression towards G-dlyness in possessing a mortal body - In fact I believe our flawed mortal body to be our greatest asset to overcoming sin and taking advantage of the atonement of Christ. This is precisely why the physical must be involved - at minimum by proxy. It appears to me that some teach the opposite that our physical bodies are the only and primary distraction from G-dlyness but I see such thinking as confused concerning the necessity of a physical and contrary to the eternal good advantage of having a physical body. I believe the one and only actual deterrent to eternal exaltation is at its heart, core and essence a SPIRITUAL FAILURE!

The Traveler

Suppose the God gave our spirits a body and the power to be like Him and have spiritual children and create worlds for them. Imagine the harm and pain that we could inflict if we were not trained in love and kindness. That may be the purpose of the first stage of Eternal Progression.

Added: Regarding "Spiritual Eyes"; Surely, spirits had the ability to project an identity in the Pre-extence. Else, how could they discuss anything? This projection would have been without the use of physical eyes. If we say we can communicate with God through prayer, and He with us, is that not a spiritual sense - a telepathy? Religions (most) believe in visions - nothing requires that these visions be physical (through our eyes). Visions could be telepathically planted directly into each mind. That would explain why some people see a vision while others next to them do not. Spiritual eyes cannot see the Kingdom of God - since those eyes must have been born once: Only those "born of water" can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:1-12).

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Originally Posted by Traveler

I believe that religious principles are often the same as scientific principles. Some things cannot be ascertained directly but can be considered by "associated" data - aka Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. But there are things we can discover by observation and things we are given in revelation. I will list some of what I believe to be important principles:

1. A physical body is necessary for eternal life. Granted there is a lot of ambiguity in this statement surrounding the terms eternal and life. But especially for Celestial existence having possession of a physical body is, by revelation, a must necessity for which there is no mitigation.

Depends what "Eternal Life" is. Does Satan have eternal life? Not in the sense we hope to - with children etc.. But will his consciousness exist forever?

2. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary in order to experience the 5 empirical senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

Spiritual and physical eyes may see different things. John 3 says unless you are born of water you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. Spiritual eyes might relate to faith or whatever we used in the Pre-existence. I agree with your "empirical" definition.

3. I believe a physical body is necessary to create life. There seems to be some conflicting data concerning this as a principle therefore I cannot "prove" it only to indicate that I cannot demonstrate any exceptions and I personally do not believe revelation conclusively states otherwise. But I am open to other possibilities. As near as I can determine a physical body is necessary to create both spiritual as well as physical life.

The Father could create spiritual children. They could not affect the physical world. The Son created the earth and Paradise and at least a part of the universe. But He used the Father's power. The Son may have created the body of Adam. But I suspect that The Father had to actually breath life into that body, since these had the potential to be like

the Father. Maybe, The Son could create creatures on His own - but not potential gods.

4. I believe that revelation indicates that in order to understand and master the truth that a physical body is necessary. right In particular it appears to me that the truth of the difference between good and evil can only be mastered with the possession of a physical body. Lucifer knew the difference - at least enough to entice a large number to his side. He could persuade even without the complete truth. I believe the revealed scriptural term concerning this knowledge is associated to the term "Perfect". But I believe something has been lost in the modern interpretation of this term and as a result many misunderstand the intent that the term has associated with "complete". You can never be perfect: but you can always be kind.

5. I believe that having even a flawed corrupt mortal body is an advantage in our quest towards G-dlyness; that no one is deterred or hindered in any way, shape or form in their progression towards G-dlyness in possessing a mortal body - In fact I believe our flawed mortal body to be our greatest asset to overcoming sin and taking advantage of the atonement of Christ. This is precisely why the physical must be involved - at minimum by proxy. It appears to me that some teach the opposite that our physical bodies are the only and primary distraction from G-dlyness but I see such thinking as confused concerning the necessity of a physical and contrary to the eternal good advantage of having a physical body. I believe the one and only actual deterrent to eternal exaltation is at its heart, core and essence a SPIRITUAL FAILURE!

The Traveler

1: Eternal life as define in scriptures – if you do any kind of search using the key “eternal life” you will realize that Satan does not have “eternal life”. From Moses 1:39 we learn that the eternal life if man is a prime goal and of great importance to G-d. My point is that this can only be accomplished through the plan of salvation that necessitates coming to earth to obtain a mortal body and being resurrected.

2: As near as I can determine our physical body is necessary for sight and if for any reason our physical body’s sight fails we are physically blind. I have no scriptures but I have no found any exception or any explanation in scripture or anywhere else suggesting otherwise. As you pointed out spiritual sight is different – and I agree.

3: As far as the creation of a physical human body – physical humans are necessary in every example I can find. I see no reference in scripture that indicates Adam was created differently than you or I. The scriptures reference the “breath of life” that is a gift on loan from G-d to man. As best as I understand and all the examples I have – the breath of life can only be exercised with a physical body. If there is reason to consider otherwise I would be interested. The one mitigating point is that the scriptures say Jesus created all things. Exactly what it all means is, in my mind, open for debate. There are points that can be discussed but I see such effort speculation at best. Until I am convinced otherwise I believe a physical being is necessary.

4: Remember it was necessary to partake of the fruit to know good from evil. This was not accomplished in the pre-existence so Lucifer did not have that knowledge. According to the plan of salvation the knowledge of good and evil was necessary and could only occur through the fall. We could discuss this in more detail to determine what the knowledge of good and evil is and why we could not gain that knowledge in the pre-existence but that is for another time. As to being perfect – As I pointed out – modern thinking corrupts this concept. If we are to correctly understand Matt 5:48 and 1Nephi 3:7 we must understand, believe and have faith that we can indeed be perfect.

Suppose the God gave our spirits a body and the power to be like Him and have spiritual children and create worlds for them. Imagine the harm and pain that we could inflict if we were not trained in love and kindness. That may be the purpose of the first stage of Eternal Progression.

It is important to understand that the results of sin is death. Therefore, there is hardly an advantage in eternity in having a "dead" body.

Added: Regarding "Spiritual Eyes"; Surely, spirits had the ability to project an identity in the Pre-extence. Else, how could they discuss anything? This projection would have been without the use of physical eyes. If we say we can communicate with God through prayer, and He with us, is that not a spiritual sense - a telepathy? Religions (most) believe in visions - nothing requires that these visions be physical (through our eyes). Visions could be telepathically planted directly into each mind. That would explain why some people see a vision while others next to them do not. Spiritual eyes cannot see the Kingdom of God - since those eyes must have been born once: Only those "born of water" can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:1-12).

Interesting - thanks

The Traveler

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Shall we define "Eternal Life" as being in the Celestial Kingdom? This excludes Telestial and Terrestrial people. Satan has "eternal consciousness" unless he suffers the "second death". I am not certain that he does.

Adam was created as we were (did he have a belly button? - an old and tired question). Adam was behind the veil like us also. The "breath of life" may be the first breath. LDS does not seal still born babies but they can get sealed after they take their first breath. I take that to signal that the first breath signals the time that the soul enters the body.

I would say we have to have a body to sin. Certainly, Lucifer knew the difference between (non-physical) good from evil and so did we but many of us may have been deceived in the spirit world. Adam and Eve on earth were born innocent and behind the veil until Adam with his priesthood made the conscious choice to follow Eve into mortality and out of the innocence. This choice was required to continue the training to become like the Father.

Jesus (the Word) did create the world using the Father's power. I think He needed the actual Father to place Adam's spirit into the body created out of the dust by Jesus.

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Shall we define "Eternal Life" as being in the Celestial Kingdom? This excludes Telestial and Terrestrial people.

The definition of "Eternal Life" you have suggested may be incomplete - using a word search of the scriptures or the LDS Topical Guide may be helpful. In general your definition could suffice as pertaining to the Celestial Kingdom because it appears to me that G-d (the Father & the Son) are examples of eternal life.

Satan has "eternal consciousness" unless he suffers the "second death". I am not certain that he does.

I have no idea what "eternal consciousness" is. It is a term I do not find in any revealed doctrine. As to the state of Satan - the term used in scripture is perdition. Which in essence means utter or complete ruin and does include both physical death (the first death) and spiritual death (the second death). Both the first and second death are brought upon by sin.

Adam was created as we were (did he have a belly button? - an old and tired question). Adam was behind the veil like us also. The "breath of life" may be the first breath. LDS does not seal still born babies but they can get sealed after they take their first breath. I take that to signal that the first breath signals the time that the soul enters the body.

It would seem to me that if Adam and Eve were created in a different manner that the rest of mankind (in particular mankind as we now understand) that there may be difficulties in saying we currently are beings actually created by G-d. The scriptures tell us that G-d created man and gave him the "breath of life". I find Genesis 7:15&22 interesting and helpful in understanding that the breath of life is probably not a first breath.

I would say we have to have a body to sin. Certainly, Lucifer knew the difference between (non-physical) good from evil and so did we but many of us may have been deceived in the spirit world. Adam and Eve on earth were born innocent and behind the veil until Adam with his priesthood made the conscious choice to follow Eve into mortality and out of the innocence. This choice was required to continue the training to become like the Father.

I believe there are some sins that do indeed require a physical body but it is obvious to me that it is possible to sin without a body. I would suggest that Romans 6:23 is one of the best explanations in scripture of the difference between good and evil. Thus in death one comes to a knowledge of evil and in contrast good is eternal life which knowledge of comes by the atonement of Christ. As I understand Satan lacks knowledge of physical death as well as knowledge of the atonement and eternal life and therefore does not possess the knowledge of good and evil - thus Satan has knowledge of evil but it is not complete and he does not have a knowledge of good (being atonement and eternal life). Thus the fall of Adam (all mankind) and the atonement of Christ was necessary for man to have knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus (the Word) did create the world using the Father's power. I think He needed the actual Father to place Adam's spirit into the body created out of the dust by Jesus.

I may be confused but I do not believe that there is a separation and distinction between the Father and the Son concerning creation. John 1:1-5 tells us of the role of Jesus in creation. I am not sure I personally understand this scripture enough to give definitive answers concerning how Adam was created (with or without a belly button) and given the "breath of life". However, I believe the principles and laws that govern creation of life have not changed in any way since the creation of the first things that lived on earth and sometime later the creation of Adam and Eve and the creation of living things today as well as the physical humans that we observe today.

BTW - I find this topic of great interest and I am somewhat surprised that you and I are having this fascinating discussion by ourselves. :confused:

The Traveler

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The definition of "Eternal Life" you have suggested may be incomplete - using a word search of the scriptures or the LDS Topical Guide may be helpful. In general your definition could suffice as pertaining to the Celestial Kingdom because it appears to me that G-d (the Father & the Son) are examples of eternal life.

I have no idea what "eternal consciousness" is. It is a term I do not find in any revealed doctrine. As to the state of Satan - the term used in scripture is perdition. Which in essence means utter or complete ruin and does include both physical death (the first death) and spiritual death (the second death). Both the first and second death are brought upon by sin.

It would seem to me that if Adam and Eve were created in a different manner that the rest of mankind (in particular mankind as we now understand) that there may be difficulties in saying we currently are beings actually created by G-d. The scriptures tell us that G-d created man and gave him the "breath of life". I find Genesis 7:15&22 interesting and helpful in understanding that the breath of life is probably not a first breath.

The Traveler

I found your assignment quite interesting. Especially D&C 28 which led me to D&C 76. But it was difficult to get a clear meaning and definition for terms which is what I am attempting.

Yes, The Father and Son are examples of eternal life. But what is it about them that equals ET? Is it their children? Then are the attending angels (some of us) also included? You say my definition is incomplete. What would you suggest to add?

Eternal consciousness is awareness of your surroundings (i.e. self awareness) for eternity.

Satan cannot have physical death since he was never born so how can he be part of the definition of Perdition?. I do not know the definition of sin. Is it to offend and limit another soul's free agency? Just overindulgence seems too narrow. (See what Satan tried to do to our agency and consider the Golden rule.)

I am willing to assume the body of Adam was created in a short period or by evolution. After all, we do believe in miracles. But it is important that the soul of Adam was injected into the body by God (and I think it was the Father). Jesus clearly made everything else (by whom all things were made). Why do you say there are difficulties? What are they?

But when does the soul enter the body and make it into a physically born son of god? At conception? That was the question I was trying to answer. I shall take my answer as to the baby's first breath as the answer according to LDS doctrine unless you can come up with another. This is not to say that abortion is OK. Not at all. But church seems to say murder is after the first breath.

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Eternal life is God's life. It is living the type of life that God the Eternal Father enjoys...whatever that may entail in totality. We only have the tiniest of glimpse. For instance, we know that God's "work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

My notion of Eternal life equals God's life comes from below...

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

It would only stand to reason if God's name is Eternal and Eternal punishment is God's punishment, then Eternal life must be God's life.

You guys may have hashed this out already, but, immortality and eternal life are not the same thing. All who have been born on this earth will enjoy the gift and blessing of immortality which is to have our spirit to be inseparably reunited with a perfect body.

Regards,

Finrock

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Right On Finrock!

In addition to a perfect body, I suggest we also have a perfect memory and all that implies. We may have to forgive, but we do not have to forget. That may be part of God's justice in that we all can see what we have done when we thought no one was looking.

Since all in the Celestial Kingdom are with God, I assume they all have "Eternal Life". But since two levels are without children (only those in the the third level are "Exulted"), they are the aunts and uncles to the children of the next generation. I suspect that situation is their free choice. Not everyone wants to be a parent and cry over the loss of potential of your children.

The other kingdoms consist of "Failed Gods" and they also are immortal. I suspect that Satan is immortal also even though he is spiritually dead.

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However, I believe the principles and laws that govern creation of life have not changed in any way since the creation of the first things that lived on earth and sometime later the creation of Adam and Eve and the creation of living things today as well as the physical humans that we observe today.

BTW - I find this topic of great interest and I am somewhat surprised that you and I are having this fascinating discussion by ourselves. :confused:

The Traveler

What are these principles and laws that govern creation of life, that you speak of? What you observe certainly is not inclusive of all these laws and principles.

For example, Lazarus was dead for four days. In other words, his body was mush. His brain did not contain cellular structure any longer. All the neurons would have undergone cell death and destruction of the layers of the cell wall, the proteins gone, the connections lost etc. And yet Jesus was able to bring Lazarus back to life as he was before. In other words, he had to create life. He not only created life from "dust" but he created adult life of a being that had already lived a lot of his life. He was able to create the brain of the individual as it was, with the same wiring, the same mannerisms, the same amount of knowledge, language skills, social behaviors etc. Now I realize that you don't think the brain contributes anything to those aspects of a being but to us that understand how much the brain contributes to man in this dual being state we find ourselves in, I think this is a rather remarkable miracle, even as far as miracles go. It is remarkable because it demonstrates the power of God. God has shown us that He can make an adult body out of dust with that miracle. I stress again, an adult body! with a set of experiences and memory to make the individual as he was before from dust, from scratch, from just the materials alone. The miracle was not just flipping a switch and then he was alive, it had to include recreating the body as it was before because after 4 days at room temperature there are no neuronal connections to speak of. This is not like leaving someone on life support and then the come back. This is a body that is destroyed, in particular, the brain is just a bowl of organic material by then. The pathways that had taken Lazarus a lifetime to establish, Jesus was able to put together instantaneously. This shows that God has the power to make a physical brain that contains any set of memories, experiences, knowledge, mannerisms, skill sets etc. This is not just a miracle but expands what you and I think about what the laws that govern the creation of life really mean. I don't think we really understand the least bit of the laws that govern the creation of life, right now.

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There are many "sins" that are not related to the body but are more psychological.

How about pride, intimidation, shame, blackmail, carping, fear, and all of the "sins" that degrade one's ability to act as a free agent and see things clearly. Some of these may be done to another just to obtain power over the other individual rather than for the pleasures of this world and worldly gain.

Since there was no body, this was what Lucifer must have used to garner 1/3 of the votes in heaven. I suspect that it was a free vote. Good thing he did not win.

Unless one understands that "psychology" is related to the chemistry and hard-wiring of the brain, the neuronal connections etc.

If one becomes disinhibited by the destruction of the anterior temporal lobes, for example such as with Kluver-Bucy syndrome and then has no "shame" expressing inappropriate sexual drive in public, nothing "psychological" happened, it was all physical.

People that have Down's syndrome are not moral free agents and therefore cannot sin, not because of a "psychological" problem but a physical one.

There have been pathways mapped to the brain regarding desire for power and control over others.

Everyone here has already agreed to follow Christ. The test is not one of whether a person wants to be like God or to follow Christ, the test is to what degree one would follow Christ. Would one follow Christ even though the body is weak and pulls us away from that pathway? Would one follow Christ even though there is immediate carnal pleasure that comes from certain acts that go against His plan? The test we face here is not a mental one, it is a test of character.

Like a soldier who in boot camp says, 'I would not leave a fellow soldier behind" and yet in the heat of the battle not all soldiers act as a hero. A similar test is what we face here. We all said we would, the test is to see if we do what we said we would despite not having our full mental capacity and awareness. It is a test of gut instinct, like the soldier in the heat of the battle who acts without thinking about it, it is the natural instinct that takes over. Likewise, the second estate reveals our natural spiritual and faith based instincts. It is a measure of degree of glory, not whether there is any glory or not, just to what degree.

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What are these principles and laws that govern creation of life, that you speak of? What you observe certainly is not inclusive of all these laws and principles.

For example, Lazarus was dead for four days. In other words, his body was mush. His brain did not contain cellular structure any longer. All the neurons would have undergone cell death and destruction of the layers of the cell wall, the proteins gone, the connections lost etc. And yet Jesus was able to bring Lazarus back to life as he was before. In other words, he had to create life. He not only created life from "dust" but he created adult life of a being that had already lived a lot of his life. He was able to create the brain of the individual as it was, with the same wiring, the same mannerisms, the same amount of knowledge, language skills, social behaviors etc. Now I realize that you don't think the brain contributes anything to those aspects of a being but to us that understand how much the brain contributes to man in this dual being state we find ourselves in, I think this is a rather remarkable miracle, even as far as miracles go. It is remarkable because it demonstrates the power of God. God has shown us that He can make an adult body out of dust with that miracle. I stress again, an adult body! with a set of experiences and memory to make the individual as he was before from dust, from scratch, from just the materials alone. The miracle was not just flipping a switch and then he was alive, it had to include recreating the body as it was before because after 4 days at room temperature there are no neuronal connections to speak of. This is not like leaving someone on life support and then the come back. This is a body that is destroyed, in particular, the brain is just a bowl of organic material by then. The pathways that had taken Lazarus a lifetime to establish, Jesus was able to put together instantaneously. This shows that God has the power to make a physical brain that contains any set of memories, experiences, knowledge, mannerisms, skill sets etc. This is not just a miracle but expands what you and I think about what the laws that govern the creation of life really mean. I don't think we really understand the least bit of the laws that govern the creation of life, right now.

I have been present a number of times when new life was created. As I previously stated I see no reason to believe that the principles and laws by which a child was "born" was different than the principles and laws by which Adam was "born". Granted I as speculating concerning Adam and if anyone has information to discourage my speculation then I am interested.

In the case of Lazarus I was not present or able to make any observations and I see no reason to speculate concerning specific situations from which I have no data to demonstrate other than the following. Bringing someone back to life (including the resurrection) is, I believe, a function and ordinance of the priesthood that is performed by a resurrected person that holds the priesthood. (with one exception being Christ that had power given him by the Father to resurrect or give life himself or others). I am not sure why you keep using such examples unless you have observed something that I have not.

I have speculated that a person is resurrected using their DNA code and that following the resurrection the body is then altered and made perfect (complete) according to the power of perfection (completion) within the person resurrected. Thus a spirit that is celestial by power and perfection will by their presents alter the physical body to conform to be comparable to the spirit that takes possession of the eternal physical body.

What is your thoughts?

The Traveler

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I have been present a number of times when new life was created. As I previously stated I see no reason to believe that the principles and laws by which a child was "born" was different than the principles and laws by which Adam was "born". Granted I as speculating concerning Adam and if anyone has information to discourage my speculation then I am interested.

In the case of Lazarus I was not present or able to make any observations and I see no reason to speculate concerning specific situations from which I have no data to demonstrate other than the following. Bringing someone back to life (including the resurrection) is, I believe, a function and ordinance of the priesthood that is performed by a resurrected person that holds the priesthood. (with one exception being Christ that had power given him by the Father to resurrect or give life himself or others). I am not sure why you keep using such examples unless you have observed something that I have not.

I have speculated that a person is resurrected using their DNA code and that following the resurrection the body is then altered and made perfect (complete) according to the power of perfection (completion) within the person resurrected. Thus a spirit that is celestial by power and perfection will by their presents alter the physical body to conform to be comparable to the spirit that takes possession of the eternal physical body.

What is your thoughts?

The Traveler

The reason you speculate the way you do - the body conforming to the spirit, etc. and the reason I present examples demonstrating the relevance of the body to the soul is in direct relation to the basic belief about what a body adds to the dual being status required to be Celestial. In other words, if one believes the body adds very little to that dual being status, the description is always that the body is simply a covering that does whatever the spirit wants, both in this life and the next. The other view, which again I am trying to understand better is to say that there is actually a contribution made by having a body to one's soul, there is something there that the spirit alone cannot do for itself or by itself so that the union of the two is greater than the one alone. If one takes that view, that the body is adding to the status of a being and brings about a change in their character or in the very nature of the person then one would hunt and ponder about what exactly is the body contributing to the soul.

So, this is why I present the examples I present and this is why you keep falling back to suggesting the body is not doing much but conformation to the spirit. That may be the case and I haven't closed my mind to that possibility but it seems that we go to great lengths to obtain a body and even those that will not be involved in procreation in the next life are magnified and glorified by their body. How and why that is, to me, is of importance. I realize that information may not be available but I don't think that is reason to assume the body contributes hardly anything more than a conduit like holding a telephone in the hand. The body adds glory to the soul and becomes part of the soul, the very essence of the being, not just the communication or interface device. Don't you think so?

Lets just ponder one possible benefit the physical body could provide. Knowing that we have a hard time distinguishing which aspect of our self is really our self between the features of the physical body and those of the spirit, we therefore can say that features of the body are taken as if they are our own. For example, if a person has an aptitude to play basketball, is that because of their spiritual based skills, their physical attributes or their social surroundings. I would say it is probably all three. One who thinks the body provides nothing would say that that it is only the spirit and maybe the social surroundings that provide the skill to play basketball, ignoring any genetically determined, physical attributes. But the person who develops such attributes describes their self that way, "I am a basketball player". If any of their "basketball player" status is derived from their physical attributes then they are not entirely correct in saying that that is who they are as it is just a temporary stewardship here in this life and they would not treat such a skill as a gift giving praise to Him that provided it as they would say it is just self.

Now, if the skill to play basketball is, even in the least bit, assisted by physical attributes then imagine how much of that could be passed on upon receiving such a body. In the next life, as we enter into a Kingdom, upon resurrection we receive a fullness of that Kingdom. Just like if I were to get Mia Hamm's body, I would still have to practice and become familiar with the skill to use it but the potential is there which may be different than my current body (even though I played pretty good soccer back in the day). What if we were to get Einstein's brain or have the wiring of Benjamin Franklin etc. Better yet, what if we were to have the body God has, the brain's mapping and wiring that God has. What exactly would be passed on with such a brain. Could we obtain all that He has, in terms of experience, knowledge, understanding and in that way receive all that came before us as if it was our own? Would that not be a way to be eternally connected to everything in the past as if it was our own? I don't know if that is how things work of course but I wouldn't shut off the idea just because you think the body provides hardly anything to the personality of the being. One of the main purposes of this life is to receive a body, not this one, but a resurrected one of glory, either a Celestial one, a Terrestrial one or a Telestial one. That seems pretty important to me, and that is why I keep giving examples of its relative importance. Christ, through the power of God was able to give back to Lazarus the set of brain contained experiences that he had prior to his death but recreate them from scratch without Lazarus having to re-live the life to form the connections in the brain.

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