"Natural mind" and "Spiritual mind"

[Finrock]

I like what James12 posted about the importance of the body in this thread. The question is "Why do we need a body of flesh and bone?". I quote james12 below:

Your question is a good one. It is a question all members should ask themselves, and they should not be satisfied with trite, clearly incomplete answers. Mark these words as given to Elder Packer in his patriarchal blessing, "[The body] is the instrument of your mind and the foundation of your character." Our body is a tool or instrument which amplifies our spirit. It expands the breadth and depth of our emotions. Through our mortal body we more deeply experience love, kindness, happiness, but also sorrow, pain, and disappointment. Our bodies enhance our relationships with others and expand our ability to obey. Our spirits our pure but have difficulty controlling these new and expanded emotions.

At the same time, our bodies our subject to the power of the adversary. Through our mortal tabernacle evil is suggested to us. The thoughts are constant. They whisper discouragement, distraction, and giving into the lusts of the flesh. Things like, "That should make you mad", "you're too tired", "you can find such pleasure in immorality".

In such cases Brigham Young said, "If the spirit yields to the body, the devil then has power to overcome the body and the spirit of that man, and he loses both." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 70) This is the test. We did not come here to: number one, be tested, and number two, gain a body. They are one and the same. Our test is to gain our body and present pure before God. For everyday practical purposes the matter can be summarized in one question. "Will my body rule over my spirit, or will my spirit rule over my body? ...That, brothers and sisters, is the test." (Elder Bednar, Ye are the Temple of God, Sep 2001, Rick's College)

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like what James12 posted about the importance of the body in this thread. The question is "Why do we need a body of flesh and bone?". I quote james12 below:

Regards,

Finrock

The answer Elder Packer provides is in response to why we need a body now, in mortality, which is a great answer. I agree it adds to our experience. It seems a lot of members don't think the body adds anything, just filters or reduces or distorts the experience.

[Guest Mc7donald]

It seems that the natural mind and the veil go hand in hand.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like what James12 posted about the importance of the body in this thread. The question is "Why do we need a body of flesh and bone?". I quote james12 below:

Regards,

Finrock

Thanks again for the reference. After rereading the quotes I would call attention to Elder Bednar's quote of "Will my body rule over my spirit ..." and that Brigham Young called the body and the test we face one in the same. To "rule over" the spirit, the body must have some self generating thought, "evil whisperings" as Elder Packer says. In other words, these quotes support the idea of two minds, that of the spirit and that of the natural body. And these quotes propose the reason which is to present the test. A single mind does not present a test any different than the one we faced in the first estate test.

It still amazes me that most LDS take this is a given doctrine but most of the world does not believe God has a physical body and yet we don't have much of an understanding of why God needs a physical body. To better understand this purpose would help us understand the small stewardship we currently face in hopes of gaining the greater stewardship which is contained within the physical body more than what a spirit body could do.

[Traveler]

Thanks again for the reference. After rereading the quotes I would call attention to Elder Bednar's quote of "Will my body rule over my spirit ..." and that Brigham Young called the body and the test we face one in the same. To "rule over" the spirit, the body must have some self generating thought, "evil whisperings" as Elder Packer says. In other words, these quotes support the idea of two minds, that of the spirit and that of the natural body. And these quotes propose the reason which is to present the test. A single mind does not present a test any different than the one we faced in the first estate test.

It still amazes me that most LDS take this is a given doctrine but most of the world does not believe God has a physical body and yet we don't have much of an understanding of why God needs a physical body. To better understand this purpose would help us understand the small stewardship we currently face in hopes of gaining the greater stewardship which is contained within the physical body more than what a spirit body could do.

I think you are a little confused? Are those that sin according to the flesh subject to their physical body (mind) or Satan?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you are a little confused? Are those that sin according to the flesh subject to their physical body (mind) or Satan?

The Traveler

All mortals are subject to their physical bodies unless they learn to bridle those passions. What does it mean to live in the world but not of the world?

If the body is corrupted what is the difference?

To be subject to the corruption of this world is to become carnal which is to be subject to Satan. I don't see it as different issues.

1 Corinthians 9; " 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Elder Bednar explains; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

Bottom line; The consequences of the Fall effect us through our bodies and that is the test to see if we respond to those drives or the spiritual drives, the natural mind or the spiritual mind. It seems pretty clear that Elder Bednar realizes the elements and the body itself is not just an innate object but a force that are subject to the "pull of sin, corruption and death." The Fall occurred because of the temptation of Satan, so I don't see what the difference is.

[Traveler]

All mortals are subject to their physical bodies unless they learn to bridle those passions. What does it mean to live in the world but not of the world?

If the body is corrupted what is the difference?

To be subject to the corruption of this world is to become carnal which is to be subject to Satan. I don't see it as different issues.

....

The root of carnal is physical. In modern language carnal also has sexual overtones. Satan however is not physical but is a being that is spiritual. I do not understand how it is that you confuse the two? and do not realize or recognize any possible difference? I do not understand how you think Satan corrupts the physical without corrupting the spirit first in the process?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The root of carnal is physical. In modern language carnal also has sexual overtones. Satan however is not physical but is a being that is spiritual. I do not understand how it is that you confuse the two? and do not realize or recognize any possible difference? I do not understand how you think Satan corrupts the physical without corrupting the spirit first in the process?

The Traveler

I think Elder Bednar explained it pretty well. What do you think of his statement?

Satan was given power to bruise the heel of man by way of the Fall. All things became corrupt by way of the Fall.

The spirit of man is affected by Satan indirectly via the body. As the person chooses to listen to those influences over spiritual ones then the spirit of that individual is marred and changed and whatever mindset the person leaves this world stays with them into the next by way of how their spirit was changed from pure and innocent to adopting carnal influences. Our goal is to remain clean and pure, to be like a child, innocent despite being exposed to these influences.

To answer your question of how Satan corrupts the body first without affecting the spirit is the same question that explains why we don't baptize people at birth. Moroni 8: 10-21. D&C 29:46-47 " 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

The spirit is not affected by the imperfections of the body until the age of accountability. There has to be enough growth and control possible over the body so that the spirit is now able to influence the body enough to be accountable.

If someone has Down's syndrome, the body is corrupted but their spirit is pure and celestial.

If a person with Tourette's syndrome yells out a cuss word in the middle of church, is that from the body or the spirit? Is the spirit corrupted because of the body's corruption in that case? Is that person responsible for the cuss word that might fly out of his mouth 100 times per day? Who is responsible, who sinned, for the blind man being born blind?

If the body is pure from the beginning then how would the second estate test be any different than the first estate test? The spirit would then be equally influenced by Satan as it was in the first estate test. All of our spirits were directly influenced spiritually by Lucifer before this world began and we all rejected Lucifer. We don't have to prove that test over again, we all passed that test. Now we face a different test, to see if we will chose faith in the Lord over faith in our self, self meaning one part pure spirit in the beginning and part carnal influences. What part of our nature do we fall in love with the most, the carnal part or the spiritual part? That is the unique test we face here that was different than the test we had in the first estate which was purely spiritual influences. Why do you think the first estate test was invalid and that we all need to re-do that test over again with a purely spiritually guided test and influenced choice? This world presents a test of faith not of knowledge base. When we had all the knowledge in front of us we all chose Christ and God's plan over Satan's. We don't have to repeat that test. It is passed and the reward for doing that is given to all who come here, save those that deny the spirit test, the sons of perdition.

[Traveler]

I think Elder Bednar explained it pretty well. What do you think of his statement?

Satan was given power to bruise the heel of man by way of the Fall. All things became corrupt by way of the Fall.

The spirit of man is affected by Satan indirectly via the body. As the person chooses to listen to those influences over spiritual ones then the spirit of that individual is marred and changed and whatever mindset the person leaves this world stays with them into the next by way of how their spirit was changed from pure and innocent to adopting carnal influences. Our goal is to remain clean and pure, to be like a child, innocent despite being exposed to these influences.

To answer your question of how Satan corrupts the body first without affecting the spirit is the same question that explains why we don't baptize people at birth. Moroni 8: 10-21. D&C 29:46-47 " 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

The spirit is not affected by the imperfections of the body until the age of accountability. There has to be enough growth and control possible over the body so that the spirit is now able to influence the body enough to be accountable.

If someone has Down's syndrome, the body is corrupted but their spirit is pure and celestial.

If a person with Tourette's syndrome yells out a cuss word in the middle of church, is that from the body or the spirit? Is the spirit corrupted because of the body's corruption in that case? Is that person responsible for the cuss word that might fly out of his mouth 100 times per day? Who is responsible, who sinned, for the blind man being born blind?

If the body is pure from the beginning then how would the second estate test be any different than the first estate test? The spirit would then be equally influenced by Satan as it was in the first estate test. All of our spirits were directly influenced spiritually by Lucifer before this world began and we all rejected Lucifer. We don't have to prove that test over again, we all passed that test. Now we face a different test, to see if we will chose faith in the Lord over faith in our self, self meaning one part pure spirit in the beginning and part carnal influences. What part of our nature do we fall in love with the most, the carnal part or the spiritual part? That is the unique test we face here that was different than the test we had in the first estate which was purely spiritual influences. Why do you think the first estate test was invalid and that we all need to re-do that test over again with a purely spiritually guided test and influenced choice? This world presents a test of faith not of knowledge base. When we had all the knowledge in front of us we all chose Christ and God's plan over Satan's. We don't have to repeat that test. It is passed and the reward for doing that is given to all who come here, save those that deny the spirit test, the sons of perdition.

Two points from the information that you have provided.

First: an inferior physical body cannot and will not corrupt a spirit on its own by its self. An individual is not corrupted until the spirit has voluntarily turned away from G-d.

Second: The source of the influence that corrupts a spirit is Satan.

In addition I would point out:

We also know from latter day revelation that Satan can by his influence corrupt spirits even when spirits have no attachment to or relationship with a physical (carnal) body. I would also submit that no matter how inferior or damaged a physical body may be - that as long as such a body can live and have life that G-d can use that physical body as a holy temple. No matter how damaged, sick or corrupted a physical body may be in your mind - G-d can heal, fix and restore such a physical body to perfection without any flaw. But a damaged spirit that does not repent while in possession of a carnal body cannot in all eternity be repaired.

My point is that though you talk of Down’s syndrome and Tourette’s syndrome such corruption is no advantage to Satan. I honestly do not know why you speak of these things that do not matter. It is Satan that destroys the human spirit.

The Traveler

Edited June 29, 2013 by Traveler

[Upcountry]

WARNING: WHEN YOU THANK A POST YOU LOSE YOUR ENTIRE ENTRY. I WILL BEGIN AGAIN.

You give Satan too much credit. Satan does not corrupt you. You corrupt yourself. Similar to the Light of Christ, we have the temptation of Satan. But we are agents for ourselves and make the choices ourselves and are responsible for them. The body is only a way of expressing the will of our spirit in this universe.

The body is corruptible but that means it is mortal and has necessary lusts. It is not inherently evil. The spirit controls the body and is responsible for its actions to the extent it can actuate the body. Tourette people have no control and are not responsible and should not be judged.

Babies are not baptized because the body is not developed enough to allow a free choice for the spirit that actuates it. I think that if a 5 year old is self aware and knows enough to want to shoot his sister, his young age will be no defense. If a ten year old is unaware of what he is doing, shooting his sister will not be held against him. In the resurrected body, he will remember that he did it but he will also know the fog in his brain when it happened. You see, intent is as important as the action.

We should treat the body as a temple because it is ours and we should love it as we do Our Father. And if we damage it so we can no longer use it correctly, we are responsible.

We are the captains of our body and soul. Satan is a mere annoyance until we chose to follow him.

Or so I believe. Upcountry

You can never be perfect but you can always be kind. Guilt and self flagellation serves little purpose.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Upcountry
Final thought

[Seminarysnoozer]

Two points from the information that you have provided.

First: an inferior physical body cannot and will not corrupt a spirit on its own by its self. An individual is not corrupted until the spirit has voluntarily turned away from G-d.

Second: The source of the influence that corrupts a spirit is Satan.

My point is that though you talk of Down’s syndrome and Tourette’s syndrome such corruption is no advantage to Satan. I honestly do not know why you speak of these things that do not matter. It is Satan that destroys the human spirit.

The Traveler

I agree with your summarized points, thank you.

In answer to your question about why I bring up Down's etc; it is because you asked the question how it is possible to that Satan corrupted the body without first corrupting the spirit. Those are examples of such a situation. We are all born into corruption, that is a part of the plan.

Romans 8: " 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious dliberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

The exposure to the corruption is part of the plan, not that we have to sin and then exposed, as it says in verse 20 we did it not willingly but because we had hope or faith in the plan would get us where we want to be. Verse 18 speaks of Paul's understanding that our current state is one that masks the underlying glory of our spirit and so even those that are faithful (verse 23) still have to wait for the adoption of the body even though their spirits are purified. This is another description of good spirit, bad body. Paul realized that we have to endure this corruption until the redemption, the resurrection occurs.

The problem with your view that the evil we exhibit is all Satan to spirit is that it doesn't meet with our view that the plan is one of happiness and joy. The plan of Salvation is a Plan of Happiness. For all those that passed the first estate test, the second estate test is one to determine what state of glory we end up with, a plan of happiness. The second estate test is not the first estate test in which spirits were divided into good and evil and the evil was cast out. The second estate test is designed to designate in a graded fashion a degree of glory! This test is not a black and white test, good and evil. It is more of a test of how white is our white; is it pure as snow or marred. But even the liar and murderer receive a degree of glory greater than what we find here. That is why when you read verse 18, keep that in mind, the sufferings that we encounter here are "not worthy of the glory which shall be revealed in us." In other words, if the spirit truly drove what the body does then the body would reveal a (future) glorified being, at least one that has passed the first estate test.

The rest of the religious wants to paint the picture that we are still in the first estate test, that God is simply dividing the evil from the good. We know in our more advanced understanding of the gospel that that is not true. How would one separate the "A" students of a class to stratify them? Well, there would have to be a new test that even the "A" students would find difficult. Then the "A" students could be stratified further. The first test was a pass/fail test. The religious majority would have us think it is the same kind of test we face now, pass/fail, good/evil revealing the true nature of our spirit. We know that is not true. All of our spirits here on Earth are good. How good is what we are being tested on, to what degree are we good and this is tested by how faithful we are and what we truly desire when faced with carnal influences that we sometimes take to be self.

The discovery of DNA started with first isolating the nuclei of cells. This was done back in the 1860's where the phosphorous rich nucleic acids where then isolated and then further discovery could be made about the nitrogen atom containing groups, cytosine, thymine, adenine, and guanine. The metaphor I am trying to draw here is that there is a certain isolated feature of our character being tested here in this life that does not require the whole of our spirit to be involved. This life is an isolated view of our faithful character. God can then use that information to stratify our true desire of the heart to put us into one of the Kingdoms of Glory. For whatever reason that we are not privy to in full (but knowing a good part of it is that the plan required a Savior), it required us taking on a Fallen state that is not really us, as Paul puts it 'the sufferings we face are not worthy of the glory that is in us.' The gentle separation of the nucleic acids is a delicate process, as with the separation of the wheat from the tares, full knowledge would destroy the process (veil is needed) and too much evil influence would destroy the process which is what happened in the days of Noah. To discover DNA required the destruction of cells, tearing their components apart, to see what they are made of, and by exposing them to chemicals and processes that are not a normal part of their chemistry to isolate and quantify their make up. We too are exposed to things that are not a normal part of our make up, our personality, our drives. Carnality will be completely overcome by our Savior when the process is done.