Grant Palmer


bytor2112
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I listened to a Grant Palmer talk recently and was struck by his mocking tone and the laughter from the audience of apostates he is helping to lead astray. I felt a warning within my Spirit that I was near a dangerous place and should leave....the same feeling I have had when reading venomous commentary from other disaffected former members or sites seeking to enlighten and save the wayward Mormons.

There is a commonality amongst these type of people that is missing from their commentary. Many claim and are no doubt honest in saying they served missions or were sealed in Temples but once they discovered fragments of history that were not taught at church they ultimately made their exit. What is always missing though is any mention of the Holy Spirit or revelation which comes by and through the Power of the Spirit.

My first meeting with church history that left me confused and uncertain was when I encountered a web sight called the Utah Lighthouse Ministry. I spent a great deal of time reading all of the information and eventually checked out every sight I could find at the time, Joseph lied, MRM, etc and even emailed back and forth with some of them including Sandra Tanner.

My question to them during the email exchanges was regarding the Holy Spirit. None of them, Sandra tanner included acknowledged that they had ever felt the Spirit or received revelation. Some suggested, rather mockingly that the experiences that church members have are no different than seeing a lovely sunset or the excitement one feels at a concert or that the church plays on the emotional.

Sadly, with Grant Palmer and their ilk, that was what was missing and what is missing and the most essential element ......the Holy Spirit. We must always seek to invite and have and cultivate the Spirit daily that we may be sanctified and have dross burned from our very natures. I am not so foolish or vain to believe that I could not fall away...or be led away, ensnared by the Adversary for I recognize I am among the Lord's weakest servants. But, If it happened, I do not believe I could ever forget, actually i am certain I could never forget that I had been in the presence of Holiness and perfect love and had communed with a member of the God Head...how could I or anyone that had? As one that was inactive for 20 years...I always remembered those experiences from my teen age years and could not shake them....thankfully.

No power on earth ,no unexplainable bit of doctrine or shocking fragment of history (because it is after all second and third and beyond hand accounts written by man) could ever cause me to not believe for the Spirit of God has left and undeniable impression upon my soul and has visited me with revelations by the whisperings of the Still Small Voice and occasioned me with visions in his Holy Temple ( please note, that is not a boast and I am humbled to know that God would give to one such as I as he will to all who seek) and I know the God lives and He is our Father and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. Without a doubt, Joseph Smith was one of the Great and Noble ones and a prophet of God and I also have been re-assured that Brigham Young was a great and mighty servant of the Lord.

My gratitude is over flowing and I only wish I could share a bit of what I have with Grant Palmer and others who have established their own kingdoms and built their foundation in sand.

Edited by bytor2112
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Why are you seeking that crap out?

Which crap? Sandra Tanner and such happened a very long time ago and I was listening to Wilford Woodruffs recorded testimony on youtube recently and another video listed was Grant Palmers so I clicked on it a listened....I wasn't looking for it. But, it is interesting to undersdtand why others become disaffected and leave....

Edited by bytor2112
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I have heard some of this stuff on the Christian radio broadcast in Utah. A lot of these people talk about how they never knew the LORD until they left the L.D.S. faith.

I think a lot of these people did not have a testimony or if they did they allowed it to die because they did not nourish it.

II Nephi 1:13–23. Awake from “the Sleep of Hell”

Disobedience to the Lord’s commandments allows Satan to deceive us, and we forget the light and truth we have previously learned. President Henry B. Eyring of the First Presidency described this dangerous condition: “One of the effects of disobeying God seems to be the creation of just enough spiritual anesthetic to block any sensation as the ties to God are being cut. Not only [does] the testimony of the truth slowly erode, but even the memories of what it was like to be in the light [begin] to seem . . . like a delusion” (“A Life Founded in Light and Truth,” Brigham Young University 2000–2001 Speeches, page 81).

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Some suggested, rather mockingly that the experiences that church members have are no different than seeing a lovely sunset or the excitement one feels at a concert or that the church plays on the emotional.

If that is the only experience they have had with the Church, the same feelings they get while watching a movie, no wonder they have left the Church. The Holy Ghost was absent in their lives. Perhaps if they spent their time looking inwardly and figuring out how to improve themselves, the Spirit would have entered their lives and they would have joy. Instead, they placed the blame on the institution and distanced themselves from any blame, causing darkness and hatred. It's sad.

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Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin (1917–2008) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that spiritual insensitivity isn’t just a problem for those with serious sin:

I fear that some members of the Lord’s Church ‘live far beneath our privileges’ with regard to the gift of the Holy Ghost. Some are distracted by the things of the world that block out the influence of the Holy Ghost, preventing them from recognizing spiritual promptings. This is a noisy and busy world that we live in. Remember that being busy is not necessarily being spiritual. If we are not careful, the things of this world can crowd out the things of the Spirit.

Some are spiritually deadened and past feeling because of their choices to commit sin. Others simply hover in spiritual complacency with no desire to rise above themselves and commune with the Infinite. If they would open their hearts to the refining influence of this unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, a glorious new spiritual dimension would come to light. Their eyes would gaze upon a vista scarcely imaginable.”

They could know for themselves things of the Spirit that are choice, precious, and capable of enlarging the soul, expanding the mind, and filling the heart with inexpressible joy” (in Conference Report, April 2003, or Ensign, May 2003, 27).

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I once did an experiment with some of relations. One day, we watched The Testaments (about the Book of Mormon telling of Christ's life and visit to Americas). The next day, we watched Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ, an anti-Mormon video that requires, through a false dichotomy, the individual to choose between following Christ or Joseph Smith.

I then asked the group which how they felt after watching both films. All agreed they felt the Spirit, love, peace, and happy after watching the Testaments. After watching the anti-Mormon film, they felt confused, tense, and awful inside.

I then asked them which feeling felt more right to them; which feeling they would rather have. All chose the feelings of peace.

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Part of me really feels for Grant Palmer- it seems as though he has been through a rough spiritual journey despite years of trying to put the facts together in such a way as to keep his faith alive- he shares what the last few months were like (and what lead up to them) on a mormon stories podcast awhile back. On another note, I find it somewhat amusing that within 6 posts some of the most cited reasons for why someone might leave the church came up, all of which typically heft unflattering blame on the person who leaves. Back to Palmer- I own both of his books, and the last one he wrote in 2005- The Incomparable Jesus- really shows the direction his faith was traveling towards the end. Check out the Ensign from December of that same year... It's the Christmas issue, and who is on the cover (and dominates much of the issue)? Joseph Smith. How does this happen in a Church named after Jesus Christ? Is the message that Joseph is more important than Jesus? The lack of focus on Jesus on any given Sunday in a LDS Church clearly was beginning to bother Grant Palmer, and quite frankly, as a convert I too sometimes wonder- despite all the paintings on the walls, he rarely comes up in any of the three hours.

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Part of me really feels for Grant Palmer- it seems as though he has been through a rough spiritual journey despite years of trying to put the facts together in such a way as to keep his faith alive-

The irony, of course, is that the problem is NOT (and never has been) "putting the facts together in such a way as to keep his faith alive".

Millions of Saints do that every day.

The real problem is Palmer's inability to reconcile his faith in the Church with his desire for the praise and approbation of Babylon- including the anti-Mormon enablers and self-reverential echo chamber of John Dehlin and his groupies.

One simply cannot imagine why Palmer might not have found evidence to reaffirm his faith in a group of self-admitted apostates whose primary goal is to legitimize an exodus from the Church.

It simply is unfathomable.

On another note, I find it somewhat amusing that within 6 posts some of the most cited reasons for why someone might leave the church came up, all of which typically heft unflattering blame on the person who leaves.

Of course, it couldn't possibly be that these stereotypes are invoked because they have currency. The only possible and acceptable conclusion is that Mormons are unreasonably close-minded and judgemental about people who have spent the last two decades engaged in biased and dishonest attacks against the Church.

Palmer, the poor innocent lad, is the real victim here.

Check out the Ensign from December of that same year... It's the Christmas issue, and who is on the cover (and dominates much of the issue)? Joseph Smith. How does this happen in a Church named after Jesus Christ? Is the message that Joseph is more important than Jesus?

The lack of focus on Jesus on any given Sunday in a LDS Church...

Call For References please, Marshac.

You cite this particular tired and trite anti-Mormon canard with all the reverence of a supplicant kneeling before his favored idol- surely you can provide some factual evidence to back it up.

... despite all the paintings on the walls, he rarely comes up in any of the three hours.

Well, there went any pretense of credibility you might have had.

All of our talks, all of our ordinances, all of our prayers are done in the name of Jesus Christ.

When we open and close our meetings, we address Heavenly Father in Christ's name.

To pretend that the Savior, his love, sacrifice, and commandments are not first and foremost in our minds is to display a deceitfulness, dishonesty, and bent for propaganda worthy of a Reifenstahl, an Eisenstein, or a Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf (otherwise known to the world as "Baghdad Bob".

Edited by selek
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Just for grins and giggles, I downloaded and did a word search of the "offending" issue of the Ensign.

I discovered that the Savior was mentioned 56 times by name. The Savior was referenced as "the Lord" 98 times, and as our "Savior" 36 times, for a total of 190 references by those words alone.

Joseph Smith- on the two-hundredth anniversary of his birth, merited a mere 108 references, nearly all of which referred to either a factual reference to the events of his life, or to his calling as a servant of Christ.

Of the twenty articles in this issue, Christ, his life, mission, sacrifice, and teachings are mentioned in all twenty.

Joseph's life and history are mentioned in only four.

By way of comparison, I conducted a similar search of the preceding (November) issue, which also happened to be a Conference edition.

In that issue, the Savior was mentioned 204 times by name. The Savior was referenced as "the Lord" 338 times, and as our "Savior" 86 times, for a total of 628 references by those words alone.

Joseph Smith's name, by contrast was used only 124 times.

Again, this simple accounting obscures the fact that in both issues- and indeed, in the every day lives of the faithful Latter-day Saint- Joseph Smith is important only because of his calling as servant to Christ.

Anyone who is genuine in his acquaintance with the Latter-day Saints and who is honest in his assessment cannot help but admit that it is Christ- not Joseph Smith- who preoccupies our minds, commands our admiration, adoration, and obedience.

To pretend otherwise is to bear false witness against the Saints and to heap up damnation upon his own head and name.

Edited by selek
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Millions of Saints do that every day.

I'm not sure millions of Saints truly are familiar with Church history- many are I'm sure, but I suspect the great majority are simply uninformed. Personally I don't feel there is anyone I could talk to in person about historical issues because I wouldn't want to risk exposing them to something that might cause them grief.

Of course, it couldn't possibly be that these stereotypes are invoked because they have currency. The only possible and acceptable conclusion is that Mormons are unreasonably close-minded and judgemental about people who have spent the last two decades engaged in biased and dishonest attacks against the Church.

Sometimes stereotypes are valid, but often times they're not- does that mean that we should automatically assume the stereotype is true? Especially when the stereotype perhaps unjustly tarnishes a person's image? Going around saying "So and so left... I wonder if it's because they're sinning..." isn't going to help foster an environment in which that person would ever want to return.

Call For References please, Marshac.

You cite this particular tired and trite anti-Mormon canard with all the reverence of a supplicant kneeling before his favored idol- surely you can provide some factual evidence to back it up.

Well, there went any pretense of credibility you might have had.

All of our talks, all of our ordinances, all of our prayers are done in the name of Jesus Christ.

When we open and close our meetings, we address Heavenly Father in Christ's name.

So much fire lobbed in my direction there- I suspect you're mistaking me for someone/something I'm not. All I have are my own experiences to go by as an adult convert to the LDS church. I was raised Methodist and later joined a Presbyterian church where I was involved in the high school youth ministry- we opened and closed our prayers in the name of Jesus as well, but nearly every single lesson or talk revolved around Jesus in some fashion. If you've never been to a non-LDS church, you might not quite understand just how different services and talks/lessons are conducted. For my first year+ as a LDS member I had to sit through a Gospel Principals class that went over such topics as the WoW, Tithing, etc- Jesus just didn't come up as much as I was used to. One Sunday after being member for about 9mo I decided that I really needed some soul food, so I tried to break free from that class and joined everyone else in Gospel Doctrine....some well-intentioned instructor tracked my wife and I down and brought us back to GE class.... It really was a bit of a culture shock every Sunday. Eventually we became less active once I entered medical school and eventually inactive once our second child was born- logistically we just couldn't make things work- we didn't stop attending because we were sinning, offended, or whatever other stereotype you may wish to apply- we simply couldn't due to work and school constraints. Once residency begins we hope to resume activity in a new ward, but that's about a year from now. Mock or pick apart this as much as you want, but honestly, joining the Church cost a lot personally- nobody in my family is LDS (most are atheist or agnostic at best), I don't have a single LDS friend, and my brother is gay- I can assure you that what I did in joining went over like a lead balloon. I don't have any agenda or hidden motives at play. Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up in the Church or because of my background, but when someone brings up a point that's critical of the Church, my first instinct isn't "defend!"- it's to examine the statement and to reconcile it based on my own beliefs and experiences. In the context of this discussion thread, to me as a convert who spent a fair amount of time in the ministry prior to becoming LDS, Palmer's statement about Jesus really rang true with me simply because I have experienced church services elsewhere. Sure, maybe there's stuff in the temple, but we've never been- just to head off speculation, it's not because we didn't tithe or because or some unworthiness issue (we did tithe and I was made an Elder during our period of activity).

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I'm not sure millions of Saints truly are familiar with Church history- many are I'm sure, but I suspect the great majority are simply uninformed. Personally I don't feel there is anyone I could talk to in person about historical issues because I wouldn't want to risk exposing them to something that might cause them grief.
Gotta love the smug condescension oozing off that statement.

"As one of the few who have been enlightened with the truth, I must be careful to avoid damaging the testimonies of the great unwashed masses with my special insider knowledge."

Sometimes stereotypes are valid, but often times they're not- does that mean that we should automatically assume the stereotype is true? Especially when the stereotype perhaps unjustly tarnishes a person's image?
As a general rule, I would say "no".

The problem here, however, is that we have done nothing to unjustly tarnish Palmer's reputation.

Sometimes, the truth hurts- but better that we cause him some discomfort than allow him to poison others with his disaffection, half-truths, and biases.

Going around saying "So and so left... I wonder if it's because they're sinning..." isn't going to help foster an environment in which that person would ever want to return.
Agreed. But pointing out that so-and-so is a partisan hack who uses spurious logic and half-truths to justify his apostacy is simply fair warning to those who may not recognize him for what he is.
All I have are my own experiences to go by as an adult convert to the LDS church.
If that's all you have to go on, then you might wish to avoid blanket stereotypes and offensive idiocy such as you proferred in your last two posts.
If you've never been to a non-LDS church, you might not quite understand just how different services and talks/lessons are conducted.
And again, you are presuming that you are more enlightened than the rest of us- that your previous experience somehow renders you more "cosmopolitan" than us hicks and rubes.

Your smug, self-assumed, superiority is both offensive and unwarranted.

I, too, am an adult convert- I, too, have worshipped with a variety of other faiths, and your caricature of LDS worship and practice is neither valid, nor acceptable.

Eventually we became less active once I entered medical school and eventually inactive once our second child was born- logistically we just couldn't make things work- we didn't stop attending because we were sinning, offended, or whatever other stereotype you may wish to apply- we simply couldn't due to work and school constraints.
In other words, despite the fact that you are neither keeping your covenants nor are active in the Church, you are more than happy to pass judgment upon the rest of us and tell us "how things really are" from the height of your gilded rameumptom.

Gee thanks, mister!

Whatever would we poor, backward, ill-used, and just-don't-know-any-better hicks do if we weren't able to bask in the glow of your masterful illumination?

Mock or pick apart this as much as you want, but honestly, joining the Church cost a lot personally
And you believe that you are unique in that regard?

That your valiant sacrifice (which you allowed to lapse fairly quickly according to your own unverified narrative) somehow makes you an expert on all things Mormon?

I don't have a single LDS friend
Given your inactivity, your condescension, the blatant falsehoods you perpetrated in this thread alone, and your avowed sympathy for an open and militant apostate, I simply can't imagine why that might be.

Of course, the common denominator in all those factors is you, but surely YOU couldn't be the problem. That would be unfathomable.

I don't have any agenda or hidden motives at play.
And nothing up your sleeve either.
Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up in the Church or because of my background
Aaannnd we're back to how you're so much more "enlightened" than those poor conditioned rubes who were raised, conditioned, and programmed by the Church.

The burden of being so brilliant, so gifted, so much just-plain-better-than your co-religionists must be simply unbearable.

How do you cope? Surely God must weep with admiration at your forebearance and fortitude...

In the context of this discussion thread, to me as a convert who spent a fair amount of time in the ministry prior to becoming LDS, Palmer's statement about Jesus really rang true with me simply because I have experienced church services elsewhere.
In other words, his words rang true to your preconceptions and prejudices, and you'll not allow the issue to be clouded by anything so mundane as mere facts.

The bottom line is this: you've made several spurious and deeply offensive accusations against the Latter-day Saints (accusations which closely echo standard issue, anti-Mormon boilerplate) and when called upon to do so, failed singularly to substantiate them.

Your attempts at self-justification smack of arrogance, pride, and condescension, and you are in open and avowed sympathy with an apostate who has vocally and regularly attacked the Church.

Given all of that, we simply have no reason to take you seriously, let alone at face value.

Edited by selek
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Gotta love the smug condescension oozing off that statement.

"As one of the few who have been enlightened with the truth, I must be careful to avoid damaging the testimonies of the great unwashed masses with my special insider knowledge."

Wow, seriously? Why must you choose to interpret my words in the worst possible light? My point simply has to do with not wanting to cause problems for people where none existed before. If someone brings up a topic, I'm more than happy to discuss, but I'm not going to volunteer information since I have no way to repair foundations I might unintentionally damage. Do you honestly think this is unwise? If so I'll discuss everything with my home teacher this Sat- from the little we've talked about it, I assure you, it will all be new information to him. And no, it's not "insider information" as you call it- the Church doesn't hide it, although it makes little attempt to highlight it either.

And again, you are presuming that you are more enlightened than the rest of us- that your previous experience somehow renders you more "cosmopolitan" than us hicks and rubes.

Your smug, self-assumed, superiority is both offensive and unwarranted.

I, too, am an adult convert- I, too, have worshipped with a variety of other faiths, and your caricature of LDS worship and practice is neither valid, nor acceptable.

In other words, despite the fact that you are neither keeping your covenants nor are active in the Church, you are more than happy to pass judgment upon the rest of us and tell us "how things really are" from the height of your gilded rameumptom.

Gee thanks, mister!

Whatever would we poor, backward, ill-used, and just-don't-know-any-better hicks do if we weren't able to bask in the glow of your masterful illumination?

And you believe that you are unique in that regard?

That your valiant sacrifice (which you allowed to lapse fairly quickly according to your own unverified narrative) somehow makes you an expert on all things Mormon?

Given your inactivity, your condescension, the blatant falsehoods you perpetrated in this thread alone, and your avowed sympathy for an open and militant apostate, I simply can't imagine why that might be.

Of course, the common denominator in all those factors is you, but surely YOU couldn't be the problem. That would be unfathomable.

And nothing up your sleeve either.

Aaannnd we're back to how you're so much more "enlightened" than those poor conditioned rubes who were raised, conditioned, and programmed by the Church.

The burden of being so brilliant, so gifted, so much just-plain-better-than your co-religionists must be simply unbearable.

How do you cope? Surely God must weep with admiration at your forebearance and fortitude...

In other words, his words rang true to your preconceptions and prejudices, and you'll not allow the issue to be clouded by anything so mundane as mere facts.

The bottom line is this: you've made several spurious and deeply offensive accusations against the Latter-day Saints (accusations which closely echo standard issue, anti-Mormon boilerplate) and when called upon to do so, failed singularly to substantiate them.

Your attempts at self-justification smack of arrogance, pride, and condescension, and you are in open and avowed sympathy with an apostate who has vocally and regularly attacked the Church.

Given all of that, we simply have no reason to take you seriously, let alone at face value.

Wow, I really don't know how to respond to such an offensive attack and really don't have time right now to go through it all. I don't appreciate the ad hominem attacks, or the malignant paraphrasing of my words. I wonder what I've done to deserve such scorn from you. I especially love how you pass judgement on us because we're not 100% active cookie-cutter mormons... wow. You don't even know us, or our story- you simply know what I've chosen to relate to you on this public forum. The bit about a family member dying of renal cell cancer, and weekly weekend trips to OHSU for surgery/treatment followed by hospice and a terrible family situation that followed involving a now quasi-orphaned minor child was omitted because it's private- yet you felt just fine passing judgement on me without knowing all the facts.

Bottom line is that I was only claiming to relate my experiences from my own faith journey and those in my own ward- I never claimed superior knowledge or experiences, simply a different perspective. As for accusations? What accusations exactly? You mean my observations and comparisons to when I was a Presbyterian? Observations are like opinions- we all have them. Your own experiences were and are clearly different than my own. As for the legitimacy of my own story... I know it's true, and I know others on here know it's true- you can believe as you wish.

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Wow, seriously? Why must you choose to interpret my words in the worst possible light?

Because you've given me no reason to do otherwise.

Your entire presence in this thread has consisted of malignant accusations against and condescension towards the Latter-day Saints in support of an avowed apostate.

Reviewing your posts, I don't see anything which suggests that you hold the Latter-day Saints in anything other than contempt.

You insinuate that we worship Joseph Smith ahead of Jesus Christ.

You accuse us of ignoring and even omitting the Savior from our Sunday worship.

You imply that we are widely (if not universally) ignorant of the truth of our history.

You suggest that- save for your delicate forbearance- you could destroy the testimonies of the Saints almost out of hand.

You accuse us of stereotyping apostates and of unrighteous judgment, yet traffic in nothing but stereotypes and unrighteous judgement.

When asked for facts, you crab, weasel, and side-step rather than providing any sort of objective evidence of your claim.

In other words, you're long on bluster and accusation, and damnably short on facts.

You repeat anti-Mormon rumor-mongering and boilerplate hateful rhetoric as if they were self-evident truths and resist any and all efforts to correct your prejudices and presumptions.

Wow, I really don't know how to respond to such an offensive attack and really don't have time right now to go through it all.

You apparently also lack the time to provide any evidence for your own ad hominem attacks.

You've made three posts since being asked for evidence, and the closest you were able to come was an unproven anecdote from a dubious source.

I don't appreciate the ad hominem attacks, or the malignant paraphrasing of my words.

Then you know exactly how I and others feel about your unfounded accusations and malignant slurs against the Saints.

I especially love how you pass judgement on us because we're not 100% active cookie-cutter mormons...

That accusation- like all your others- is false.

But you knew that.

The problem isn't that you're not "100% cookie-cutter Mormons", but that YOU are acting like a 100% cookie-cutter anti-Mormon.

You have accused the Latter-day Saints of blasphemy, idolatry, and heresy- but can't seem to muster a single fact to support your scurrilous smears.

You don't even know us, or our story- you simply know what I've chosen to relate to you on this public forum.

I also know that your accusations against the Saint are pure unadultered bovine by-product, fresh and steaming from the original source.

I even provided a short analysis of the Ensign magazine which so stirred the ire of you and your fellow traveller to demonstrate that your claims were without basis.

As to your pretense of being offended- that's YOUR problem. You've shown no hesitation about throwing out hateful and inflammatory accusations against the Saints.

But apparently, it's not quite so much fun when it's YOUR ox being gored.

If and when you give me a reason to reconsider, I will be more than happy to do so, and to apologize as necessary. But I'm not holding my breath.

You've shown little consideration for the Saints, and less regard for facts or evidence. Given that your mind is demonstrably closed, and unless and until you provide me some reason to believe otherwise, I have little choice but to conclude that you are simply one more fellow traveller trying to bolster Palmer's claims by flying under false colors.

That being the case, there's very little point in engaging you.

Edited by selek
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Part of me really feels for Grant Palmer- it seems as though he has been through a rough spiritual journey despite years of trying to put the facts together in such a way as to keep his faith alive- he shares what the last few months were like (and what lead up to them) on a mormon stories podcast awhile back. On another note, I find it somewhat amusing that within 6 posts some of the most cited reasons for why someone might leave the church came up, all of which typically heft unflattering blame on the person who leaves. Back to Palmer- I own both of his books, and the last one he wrote in 2005- The Incomparable Jesus- really shows the direction his faith was traveling towards the end. Check out the Ensign from December of that same year... It's the Christmas issue, and who is on the cover (and dominates much of the issue)? Joseph Smith. How does this happen in a Church named after Jesus Christ? Is the message that Joseph is more important than Jesus? The lack of focus on Jesus on any given Sunday in a LDS Church clearly was beginning to bother Grant Palmer, and quite frankly, as a convert I too sometimes wonder- despite all the paintings on the walls, he rarely comes up in any of the three hours.

Odd...that has never been my experience. True...our assigned talks tend to be more focused on Gospel Principles which should help us to become like Christ and there by return to the presence of God. Out purpose in mortality is to prepare to meet God and that can only be done as we are sanctified by the Spirit and take on Christ like attributes.

Joseph Smith like John before him and other prophets are revealers of Christ. Would any of us now understand the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is...without Joseph Smith? As I reflect on church on Sundays, we begin with the Sacrament...which is done in remembrance of the Savior and the talks are supposed to teach us, or strengthen our resolves to conform to HIS will in all things. If you are not seeing the Savior represented....maybe the problem is inward?

As for unflattering comments about people who leave.......sad it is that they leave, but sadder still that it becomes there mission to denigrate and attempt to drag others with them.

Grant Palmer could have just left, but instead he feels the need to prove he is right. Some people hang on by a thread and hopefully they become stronger over time.......but when they stumble on the Grant Palmers it becomes easier to justify the decision. People leave all kinds of churches and denomination all the time for a myriad of reasons...not just the LDS church. There is always someone preaching a religion that someone will find appealing.

As for church history.....I wonder why Grant Palmer and others like him aren't concern with the incredible lack of historical teaching found in Christianity as a whole and the various denominations? If our history is confusing at times....Christianity as a whole must make some lose their mind..................

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@marshac

I value greatly the testimonies and experiences of converts. I tend to agree that on the surface it seems like the Savior seems lost in all the details and discussions. But on the other hand on the occasions where I have visited other churches I feel so strongly the words of the savior "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me". I hear the name of Jesus said so much and in such a way that it starts to feel like vain repetition and I start to feel uncomfortable. In the LDS church when we discuss the Priesthood, Home Teaching, Self-Reliance etc.. the whole foundation is how do we go about honoring the Savior and applying his teachings in our lives.

I myself think the most important lessons we learn are in Primary (like having Charity, giving like a little stream, kindness begins with me etc.) and sometimes feel we lose that as we get caught in the minutia of how to go about applying the gospel.

I appreciate your perspective. I myself didn't find anything offensive in what you have said, but I'm also admittedly and purposely ignorant of the likes of Palmer and Snuffer.

*btw...what’s up with the serial killer names?

As members we are blessed with discernment. The few times I read blog posts or articles by these people I have felt darkness. It's really that simple for me. ...like I don't have enough material to work on in my life that I need to sift thru their drivel. Stuff like the scriptures and conference talks and good books like 'The Peacegiver'.

I enjoy discussing government but I don't feel good on certain LDS political forums because there is so much negative stuff and these guys (the snuffers) seem to find lots of fans amongst those who revel in conspiracy. (Not that I don't think it exists but just that bathing in it daily makes one stink)

But that's just me.

Anyway, count me as a friend. You've got allot on your plate and I wish you the best.

*My wife is completing her residency this month and moving onto a fellowship. So if you were in Florida we could get together and you guys could discuss Doctor stuff.

Edited by Windseeker
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