Act As Movement Vs. Act As Choice


Serg
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An Idea came to my mind not long ago. Suddenly, while going through Buber's writtings it hit me again, and I saw it there, printed, laying materialized on a paper surface, written by another man. It felt, as unfaithfulness.

In free space there is neither right nor left. In the same way, there is reward and punishment only in this, and not in the Messianic world.

Martin Buber's ten rungs, collected Hassidic saying, p.116

Brilliant. ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

It is the very lds notion of judgement. At least, as Ostler explains it. It is the way in which every man "receiveth after the desire of their hearts". In our view,(or at least of few of us), 'punishment' and ' reward' are very uncompelling words to describe the 'ultimate' state of each human being. Thus, it contains a higly level of meaning rather than truth(literal). A world where a Will(a being, free being, i.e.God) directs the state of another is not the ' perfect' and ' coherent' dwelling place of our desiring hearts. To sum up:

at last, in our so called ' last judgement' we will not be appointed an abode, a kingdom, a damnation, but we will ourselves in all freedom and sincerity of being approach the abode that we know best fits us. Hence, there will be no lines, no judges, no books....it is all figure of speech. Their meaning will be there(order, authority, truth). But signifiers do not share equal status(obviously) with their significations. Thus, at the end,('end')there will be no right or left in space(as there IS not such notion), also no 'punishment' or 'reward' , but " intelligence that embraces intelligence, mercy that aproaches mercy, justice that understands justice, holiness that walks along holiness, etc..." , thus says Jesus ' he that be filthy, stay filthy yet" , he that just, just.

Sorry if it all seems messy, I havent had time to do almost anything these weeks, and this seemed all the time I got.

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  • 4 weeks later...

If we will be our own judges (which I believe is true to a degree) why then are we told time and time again that we will stand before both Heavenly Father and Jesus and others that will testify either for or against us at the judgement bar?

That is said too many times by prophets, both ancient and modern, for me to buy that we will all just kind of go where we think we belong. I want to be able to stand before my maker and face him and (hopefully!) with complete confidence tell him I did the best I could, and to hear him (again, hopefully!) say my life was accepted and to enter into his rest.

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Yes sir. Once truly saved, you will conform and act in obedience to becoming Christ-like. We stumble and are imperfect but Christ covers all sins. Past and future. To say he can't, limits his work in my book.

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Okay, that is what I wanted to know.

Not being new to this forum, then you understand where I am coming from. We too accept that the grace of Christ covers us, but we believe we need to be doing all we can as well. Kind of like James said "I'll show you my faith thru my works".

I had a friend several lives ago that had your viewpoint, that once saved (or, in our venacular, once you have felt the pure love of Christ in you) you would want to do Christlike acts, which I totally agree with. I guess where we diverge is that I believe that even those that have felt that love can then fall away and deny the faith, as it were, kind of like Judas did.

What do those people, like a Judas, that has once tasted and then apostasized, do? Are they, in your belief system, still saved? Or do their acts now negate that?

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Great question Six. That is a continuing debate in Christian circles. "Once saved always saved." There are good supports for both sides. I have not yet come to a firm conclusion on that issues. I'm leaning toward the "unpardonable sin" being a complete rejection from the salvation of Jesus as the only sin that "Jesus can't cover." All sins though, beyond complete utter denial, firm choice after knowing him, are covered by his blood. But again, I'm still working through that issue.

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Dr T,

Thanks for the input. I'm going to ask a follow up, of a kind. What about types like, let's say, a Jeffrey Dahmer, or some such, that has been saved and the commits some atrocity. Would he still be covered under the blood of Christ and be able to dwell with him forever? That is not the unpardonable sin you mentioned.

We too, believe in the unpardonable sin, where you assent to the crucifixion of Christ and openly put him to shame. I believe that most people on this earth are unable to do this, because of my belief that you have to have known beyond any shadow of doubt and been put in a position where your acts or deeds could hurt the church and affect other's testimonies.

If, for instance, a Jeff Dahmer type is still saved, how do you reconcile that to 1 John 3:15, were he states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him? Or Rev 21:8, which states that murderer will have part of the lake of fire and brimstone?

Thanks for sharing your beliefs with me.

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Sixpack, it also says in the D&C that those commit adultery twice will be cast out. Is God truly that harsh? I don't think so.

God sees the heart and I think that He will forgive whom He will forgive. Who are we to say what act is forgiveable and what isn't?

Not saying I am right... I am just thinking out loud.

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Dr T,

I have no internet over the weekends until we move into our house here, so I too will have to wait until Monday.

Blessed,

The verses you refer to are in D&C 132, if I remember right, in regards to eternal marriage. What it says is that those that commit adultery and come back, begging forgiveness, then turn around and do it again, shall not be forgiven, and have no part in the Celestial Kingdom. IOW, I believe that refers to what Christ was talking about when he stated that once an evil spirit leaves a body, it goes about looking for somewhere to live, and then returns to the old body with 7 more spirits even worse that it is, making that individual worse than before. Those people then have to pay for their transgression themselves up to some point (what that is, I don't really know).

So I think we are talking about two different types of things here. Yes, HF will forgive us, for a multitude of things, but I feel we need to show some progress here of overcoming the natural man. If we backslide then I think we have to expect the consequences.

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I'm back. Looking at the 1 John verse, it seems clear that the "abides" word is probably very important to understand. I've haven't studied that verse in depth so I'm just talking. It makes sense that those that truly have Jesus would not murder. Murder is also another important word. It's interesting cause it starts with Cowardice too. Is being a coward worthy of being in hell. There is probably a lot there. Overall, from a mere glace, I would suspect that it is consistent with what I talked about above. Being truly saved, we change for the better and act in a Christ-like way. That would include no more murder. If they don't have Jesus, they would do many things that are not Christ-like and it follows, they will be in hell. Hat is equivalent to murder, if we hate is that a Jesus position? We have all disliked others at one point or another. When we repent of that and work on rectifying that sin, could Jesus not cover that? I would say absolutely! Jesus is powerful. I would also say this relates to the Rev verse you mentioned. Have a safe move. I look forward to your return. :)

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Dr T.

I see your point, and I agree, that someone that has the spirit of Christ abiding in them wouldn't murder or, for that matter, do anything that would drive that spirit from them. However, I think that we, as weak mortals, do that every day! Because of whatever reason, no one can have that spirit with them 24 hours a day, because of our mortal nature and pride. I guess that is what I was trying to find out. I accept that you believe that you have been saved because you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. That being said, however, what happens if your wife suddenly decides she doesn't love you, and threatens to take the kids, etc., and you lose it and do something horrible? Of course, I don't believe that for an instant, but those things happen every day. You say that you have been saved, you have felt the cleansing of the spirit, yet circumstances that you didn't actually choose have caused you to do something that now puts your soul in jeopardy.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I too feel I have been saved in the sense your church teaches it, I also believe that I have to do all I can every day (what we call "enduring to the end") to warrant that "saving". You are probably familiar with our scripture from the BOM that says:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

So I enter each day with fear and trembling, as it were. I know who my Savior is, I am grateful to him every day for the blessing of the atonement, and strive to do his will. To my best ability, so that I can have that grace after all I do, because I know my works won't get me there, only his grace, but that my works show my humility to accept his grace, and show my love for him.

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Great post Six,

I need to get to work right now, so I can't fully respond. This issue has been kicked around on this site. It looks like we are looking at it from a different point of view (pov) but the "after all I can do" issue appears to me as slapping Jesus in the face and saying, "Yeah, it great and all that you died for my sins but I need to add to your work." Like I said, you disagree with that statement and say it is an honoring by the action. I'd agree that we act in that way to show a change and growth but not for salvation-not to earn salvation. Again, you prob. wouldn't say "earn" either. Sorry I have to run. Have a great day Six. :)

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