Am I an apostate?!

[madink77]

I just read that Native Americans were descended from Asia, not Israel, and that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and practiced polygamy in secret! I also read he was a treasure hunter that went on trial and translated the Golden Plates from a stone he put in his hat! What??? Am I going to outer darkness now?! I don't want to know these things if it means I won't get into the Celestial Kingdom!

Is it true that there's never been any other Plates found in ancient America with Reformed Egyptian on them? Where do I learn to read Reformed Egyptian? Is it true Joseph Smith mistranslated Egyptian in the Book of Abraham papyrus?! What does it mean if I know this? Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

[mirkwood]

[Jamie123]

Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

Probably not, but if you get to Hell before me, save me a seat!

[Swiper]

Is it true that there's never been any other Plates found in ancient America with Reformed Egyptian on them?

There is no evidence of Reformed Egyptian outside the Book of Mormon narrative.

Where do I learn to read Reformed Egyptian?

You cannot learn Reformed Egyptian as its an unknown language in this modern day.

Is it true Joseph Smith mistranslated Egyptian in the Book of Abraham papyrus?!

Joseph Smith's translation does not match the text on the parts of the Book of Abraham papyrus that still exists today.

What does it mean if I know this?

It means that you know a little more than the average church member.

Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

I do not think God have any problem with you reading it; but that's only my opinion and I could be wrong.

[james12]

First, God will never reject a person for finding and believing truth. Oh we may block our own progress because we do not accept or understand what we find, but truth is life. We must not fear truth.

Second, some of what you have posted is true but the interpretation of events is questionable. For instance, Joseph did practice polygamy but the next question you should ask is why. Is it as Joseph and others have stated, because God commanded it? Or is it because he was sex crazed, as many anti-Mormon sites would have you believe? Don't jump to conclusions and don't accept anti-Mormon rhetoric. Use the Spirit and find the truth. And if you can't find out exactly why don't assume the worst.

Third, understand and accept the difference between the church and the gospel. The church teaches doctrine, administers ordinances, and establishes policies and procedures to help us grow in truth. The gospel is the plan and way we enter into and receive salvation. I am greatful for both, but make your life gospel centered. By so doing no church practice or change in policy will have any effect on your individual salvation because your faith will be centered on Christ, the rock of salvation.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Just gonna go through this bit by bit with you. Here we go.

I just read that Native Americans were descended from Asia, not Israel

Because of the wide variety of cultural differences between each of the tribes, there's good reason to think the ancestors of the Native Americans came from several places, including Israel and Asia. Remember that Lehi and his family weren't the only people led to the promised land in the Book of Mormon.

and that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and practiced polygamy in secret!

Yes Joseph practiced polygamy, but it wasn't in secret at all. Most, if not all, of the saints then knew about it. Also important to remember is that Joseph was told to practice it for more than ten years before he began to. It took a clear and direct warning from the Lord to finally cause him to move forward with it. Apparently he had the same problems with it most of us do to this day.

I also read he was a treasure hunter that went on trial

Not sure about the trial part of it, but it wouldn't surprise me. Treasure hunters were quite common in his day, and he was known to work with others on joint projects, as it were. According to his own words he never gained anything from his efforts, nor found any treasure.

and translated the Golden Plates from a stone he put in his hat!

There are many credible sources that confirm this as one of the several methods he used. I don't think Joseph ever stated himself how the translation was done, however.

What??? Am I going to outer darkness now?! I don't want to know these things if it means I won't get into the Celestial Kingdom!

How would knowing these things keep you from the Celestial Kingdom?

Is it true that there's never been any other Plates found in ancient America with Reformed Egyptian on them?

Yes. It doesn't mean there aren't any still waiting to be discovered, however.

Where do I learn to read Reformed Egyptian?

So far, the only way would be by inspiration from God, because that's how Joseph did it. Don't worry about it though. There are no writings we know of in that language beyond the golden plates, and Moroni has them in his care as far as we know.

Is it true Joseph Smith mistranslated Egyptian in the Book of Abraham papyrus?!

It is true he is accused of mistranslating it. Since we don't have the exact papyri Joseph read from identified, we don't know for sure either way.

What does it mean if I know this?

It means you have some subjects to study out for the sake of your testimony, just like everyone else that has had to address these issues personally.

Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

I don't think God would ever punish you for gaining knowledge and wisdom about the founding of the LDS Church.

The answers (beyond what I have given) are out there for you to discover. When I have more time, I'd like to go back over these issues a little more in depth with you, since I had to study each of them out myself as well. At the same time, I can't just give you the peace of mind about any of them. Only you can do that, through prayer and sincere study from all sources you can find from both pro-LDS and anti-LDS sources, though I wouldn't recommend going too deep with the anti-LDS. Once you understand their questions and arguments, that is sufficient. Seeking the answers is far more important. God has the answers you need. Reach to him for help and he'll give it to you.

[MarginOfError]

You can't really be an apostate for reading history. You only become an apostate if you abandon your beliefs. Not really knowing anything about you, I can't really comment on if you are or are not apostate. I'll leave that for you to decide.

[Traveler]

I just read that Native Americans were descended from Asia, not Israel,

This is a gross over simplification. It is believed that Native Americans are descended from two migrations from Asia the most recent is believed to have been between 12 and 20 thousand years ago. In order to believe this to be accurate one would have to reject the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. If this information came to your from a "Christian" source - then you can know for sure, at least on some level they are flat out lying.

and that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and practiced polygamy in secret!

Again this is an oversimplification. There are claims that Joseph married various numbers of individuals but there is a lack of evidence. For example there is zero evidence that Joseph consummated any of the alleged marriages or fathered any children with anyone other than Ema.

I also read he was a treasure hunter that went on trial

Treasure hunting is against what law? Actually the charges when Joseph was taken to Carthage Ill. was sedition and treason, which interestingly was the same charges for which Jesus was put to death. I would be most interested if you have discovered any charges for which Joseph was convicted. BTW polygamy was in the days of Joseph Smith an offense for which he could have been convicted.

and translated the Golden Plates from a stone he put in his hat!

Joseph was not allowed to let any watch as he translated using "the stone". For most - likely all the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph while using the stone was hidden from the view of his scribe by a quilt that was hung to separate them. On very few occasions with trusted individuals he was allowed to demonstrate the power of the stones using a hat to conceal the stone while he looked but under such conditions I do not believed Joseph translated any of the Golden Plates. I think you have been mislead - perhaps deliberately. Something a real disciple of Christ would never do.

What??? Am I going to outer darkness now?! I don't want to know these things if it means I won't get into the Celestial Kingdom!

I think that putting your trust in individuals intending to deceive you (as you have appeared to have done) will likely lead you to somewhere other than the Celestial Kingdom. Is someone telling you something different?

Is it true that there's never been any other Plates found in ancient America with Reformed Egyptian on them? Where do I learn to read Reformed Egyptian?

In his book "A Forest of Kings", David Freidel explains how ancient Egyptian was used to break the code of Mayan hieroglyphic system as well as the similarities between the two. But since the Mayan language is in essence different than Egyptian we could call the Mayan hieroglyphic system a "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphic.

Is it true Joseph Smith mistranslated Egyptian in the Book of Abraham papyrus?! What does it mean if I know this? Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

I do not know of anyone that claims the the papyrus the remains today was the source of the book of Abraham. Where are you getting this stuff? Obviously it is not true.

The definition of an apostate is one that has abandoned their faith. I would ask you since you should know better than anyone else, -- are you an apostate?

The Traveler

Edited June 18, 2013 by Traveler

[Guest]

I am completely and utterly shocked that the OP hasn't been back to engage in this discussion.

[NeuroTypical]

Hey madink77 - it sounds like you could really, really use a good long book on the history of the restoration. I recommend Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling about Joseph Smith. It seems to be hailed by both critic and believer alike.

If you're honestly LDS and just hearing such things for the first time - learn, think, and pray. I'm not sure how you made it so far without learning about our fascinating history, and how easily it's criticized, but here you are. Get ready to ask yourself why you believe what you believe.

If you're some drive by critic, I recommend the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board. You can argue over there all day long.

[rameumptom]

I just read that Native Americans were descended from Asia, not Israel, and that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and practiced polygamy in secret! I also read he was a treasure hunter that went on trial and translated the Golden Plates from a stone he put in his hat! What??? Am I going to outer darkness now?! I don't want to know these things if it means I won't get into the Celestial Kingdom!

Is it true that there's never been any other Plates found in ancient America with Reformed Egyptian on them? Where do I learn to read Reformed Egyptian? Is it true Joseph Smith mistranslated Egyptian in the Book of Abraham papyrus?! What does it mean if I know this? Will God ever forgive me for reading about this?

Jaredites were from Asia. Joseph did have many wives. Joseph was a treasure hunter years before being called as a prophet. Joseph was put on trial dozens of times, and acquitted each time. God can use whatever device he wishes to use to bring about His work, which can include strange things, such as a stone in a hat, or Jesus using clay and spit to heal a blind man.

Few will become sons of perdition and go to Outer Darkness. You probably won't qualify. That said, many reject Jesus because of errors between scripture and archaeology/history, or conflicting stories in the Bible. So, we should expect some people to reject Mormonism because its prophets and history are not perfect, as well.

We do not know what Reformed Egyptian looks like. But we also can be sure that the majority of people here did not use Reformed Egyptian, but their own native tongues and writings. That Egyptian and Mayan both have hieroglyphic writings seems to be an interesting connection.

Joseph Smith often used texts or items to initiate revelation. It is very possible that the papyri he used were either lost and never found among the ones we now have, or that the ones we have were used as a jumping off point for revelation. Either way, God can reveal truth in whichever way He chooses to do so.

God does not reward nor condemn us for reading things. He rewards us for seeking Him out and accepting his truths, no matter where they are found. He condemns us for the truths we reject, simply because we refuse to consider things with an open mind.

Your questions seem snarky and prideful. Many people rejected Moses, Jeremiah, and Jesus, because they thought they knew more than God and his prophets. Perhaps more humility, less stiff-neckedness, and more willingness to hear the word of God may lead you to greater truth.

[Just_A_Guy]

We do not know what Reformed Egyptian looks like.

Anthon transcript?

[rameumptom]

A handful of characters out of possibly hundreds.

[Saguaro]

Some of you need to do a little more research on the topic of plural marriage.

RipplecutBuddha said “Yes Joseph practiced polygamy, but it wasn't in secret at all. Most, if not all, of the saints then knew about it. Also important to remember is that Joseph was told to practice it for more than ten years before he began to.”

Not true, very few people, mostly church leaders, practiced and knew about polygamy in its early days, Joseph actually preached against it publicly while practicing it in private. Regarding the time line, read the introduction to D&C 132, it states that the principles therein were known to the prophet as early as 1831, yet conserative estimates put his relationship with Fannie Alger at 1836, that's only five years (others claim his relationship with Fannie started as early as 1832).

Traveler said “There are claims that Joseph married various numbers of individuals but there is a lack of evidence.”

Lack of evidence? Many well documented books have been written on the subject, the latest is 3 volumes long and was written by a faithful member of the church.

Amazon.com: Joseph Smith's Polygamy, Volume 1 History (9781589581890): Brian C. Hales, Don Bradley: Books

[rameumptom]

Saguaro is correct. The only question now is whether Joseph sired any children with these women.

In the past, this was a secret. Even those members that knew Joseph was involved, often didn't know the extent of it. And that includes Church members in our current generation, as well. Only in the last decade or two has the information been put out for easy and full access.

[Traveler]

Some of you need to do a little more research on the topic of plural marriage.

RipplecutBuddha said “Yes Joseph practiced polygamy, but it wasn't in secret at all. Most, if not all, of the saints then knew about it. Also important to remember is that Joseph was told to practice it for more than ten years before he began to.”

Not true, very few people, mostly church leaders, practiced and knew about polygamy in its early days, Joseph actually preached against it publicly while practicing it in private. Regarding the time line, read the introduction to D&C 132, it states that the principles therein were known to the prophet as early as 1831, yet conserative estimates put his relationship with Fannie Alger at 1836, that's only five years (others claim his relationship with Fannie started as early as 1832).

Traveler said “There are claims that Joseph married various numbers of individuals but there is a lack of evidence.”

Lack of evidence? Many well documented books have been written on the subject, the latest is 3 volumes long and was written by a faithful member of the church.

Amazon.com: Joseph Smith's Polygamy, Volume 1 History (9781589581890): Brian C. Hales, Don Bradley: Books

There are many claims but I do not know of evidence that would present a legal conviction - for example I do not know of any DNA results to demonstrate that Joseph had any children other than by Ema. From a strict legal perspective marriage cannot be proven - because where Joseph lived plural marriage was not legal, therefore it could not have been a legal marriage of state. If there is conclusive evidence that Joseph was ever married for more than a "spiritual" marriage - I do not believe it can be proven. I could be wrong but I have not found such evidence.

The Traveler

[livy111us]

I think it may be best to move this conversation to a new thread and mods to delete this one. The more we post on it and make it relevant, the more we are accomplishing the goal of this critic in this hit and run attack.

[james12]

I think it may be best to move this conversation to a new thread and mods to delete this one. The more we post on it and make it relevant, the more we are accomplishing the goal of this critic in this hit and run attack.

I acknowledge the original post may be a person critical of the church but aren't the concerns valid either way? Certainly there are others with these same concerns. Why not discuss how active members reconcile these issues?

[livy111us]

I think it's great to speak about these issues, don't get me wrong, but we should do it on our turf and not give this guy the time of day.

[slamjet]

This past Sunday, I was with my Stake President and I said "what the heck" then I looked at him and asked "Am I allowed to say 'heck'?" He said "you're allowed to say 'heck'." So am I going down the dark path? Is my Stake President giving me permission to go down this dark path? Are we going down this path together? Is there rocky road ice cream at the end of the path? Has anyone seen what pavers are used on this path?

[bytor2112]

I recently learned that Brigham Young may not have always worn a beard..go figure?

[slamjet]

i recently learned that brigham young may not have always worn a beard..go figure?

What The Heck?!?!?

[Guest]

Rocky Road ice cream is a gateway to Tillamook Mudslide, and from there you're just guzzling hot fudge with no ice cream to get in the way of your fix. Beware.

[prisonchaplain]

I think it's great to speak about these issues, don't get me wrong, but we should do it on our turf and not give this guy the time of day.

Uh...I think he's gone...so it's safe.

[Traveler]

This past Sunday, I was with my Stake President and I said "what the heck" then I looked at him and asked "Am I allowed to say 'heck'?" He said "you're allowed to say 'heck'." So am I going down the dark path? Is my Stake President giving me permission to go down this dark path? Are we going down this path together? Is there rocky road ice cream at the end of the path? Has anyone seen what pavers are used on this path?

You do understand the meaning of "heck"? That is where you go if you do not believe in "Gosh".

The Traveler