Explaining polygamy to children


UtahJakey
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I think you're confused. The US Census was reporting first marriages and the statistics I reported and the one others have linked to in the FAIR article all show the same thing.

Sorry - I'm not explaining myself very well. I sit at a computer all day and play with numbers. You are right - you're talking about first marriages only. I misspoke. It still comes down to what the bell curve looks like.

For first marriages, the average age was 21-22. This is an interesting statistic, but meaningless until we know std deviation. Because going from your statistic, any of these could be true:

Case A: Half the first marriages were at 14, half were at 29. Therefore, the average age was 21-22.

Case B: A third of the first marriages were between 14-17, a third were at 26-29, and a third were somewhere between . Average age was 21-22.

Case C: One percent of first marriages were younger than 18, one percent were older than 25, everyone else got married between 19-24. Average was 21-22.

See, any of those three cases could be the true case. I don't know which case it is - do you? Until we figure it out, I guess we don't really know what to tell your daughter, do we.

And what's up with the "cultish Marminz" thing.

I'm asking you a question. Do you believe Mormons in frontier America married girls younger than the rest of the USA? If so, why?
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It's not a "site" but our family genealogy. We're related to Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen. She married him in 1871, when she was 15 years and 8 months old. They had 5 children together one of which is a relative of ours.

Interesting, didn't President Snow also married Sarah's sister? Sarah was certainly not the youngest wife of Lorenzo. IF I am not mistaken, Eleanor was his youngest wife ( she was 14).

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Sorry - I'm not explaining myself very well. I sit at a computer all day and play with numbers. You are right - you're talking about first marriages only. I misspoke. It still comes down to what the bell curve looks like.

For first marriages, the average age was 21-22. This is an interesting statistic, but meaningless until we know std deviation. Because going from your statistic, any of these could be true:

Case A: Half the first marriages were at 14, half were at 29. Therefore, the average age was 21-22.

Case B: A third of the first marriages were between 14-17, a third were at 26-29, and a third were somewhere between . Average age was 21-22.

Case C: One percent of first marriages were younger than 18, one percent were older than 25, everyone else got married between 19-24. Average was 21-22.

See, any of those three cases could be the true case. I don't know which case it is - do you? Until we figure it out, I guess we don't really know what to tell your daughter, do we.

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse but the distribution of the first marriage ages were on the links provided by myself and the other participants in this thread.

I'm asking you a question. Do you believe Mormons in frontier America married girls younger than the rest of the USA? If so, why?

Yes I do. It's a simple matter of numbers. From similar census data we know there were slightly more Mormon men than women in the Utah territory. The disparity is even greater if you included non-Mormons in the area. Assuming similar mortality between men and women the only way men can take 10/20/30 wives is by stepping out of the natural demographics and marrying younger and younger women. For that reason polygamy was going to be unsustainable from a population standpoint. It's the same reason why the FLDS have "lost boys".

UJ

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UtahJakey,

Here's something you might find interesting. It's a collection of poems/letters written mostly by Lorenzo Snow while he was in prison for cohabitation. Scroll to almost the bottom and you'll see a poem to Minnie J Snow. I believe he wrote it around their 20th wedding anniversary. That's my understanding from what I've read.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/within-these-prison-walls-lorenzo-snow-s-record-book-1886-1897/transcript-lorenzo-snows-r-0

M.

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My great great great grandmother was 15 when she married, had 5 children (including twins) and died when she was 21. She was one of four wives, but my great great great grandfather had two wives at a time. It was shocking to read about her short life and the loss of her twins. I felt sad for her. But then I realize some pretty awesome generations came from her.

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Interesting, didn't President Snow also married Sarah's sister? Sarah was certainly not the youngest wife of Lorenzo. IF I am not mistaken, Eleanor was his youngest wife ( she was 14).

The story is that President Snow approached Eleanor when she was 14 and asked her to promise to one day to become his wife. They weren't actually married until 3 years later when she was 17. Eleanor was the younger sister of Mary Elizabeth Houtz Snow one of President Snows earlier plural marriages.

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The story is that President Snow approached Eleanor when she was 14 and asked her to promise to one day to become his wife. They weren't actually married until 3 years later when she was 17. Eleanor was the younger sister of Mary Elizabeth Houtz Snow one of President Snows earlier plural marriages.

Thanks. I am confident that some sources list Eleanor's marriage to Snow in 1845 and others 1848, I would have to dig a bit to find out. Also I'm pretty sure Mary Elizabeth was actually the younger sister. If Eleanor's marriage to Snow was indeed in 1845, Mary Elizabeth was around 5 years old when the marriage took place.

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...Eleanor was the younger sister of Mary Elizabeth Houtz Snow one of President Snows earlier plural marriages.

Thanks. I am confident that some sources list Eleanor's marriage to Snow in 1845 and others 1848, I would have to dig a bit to find out. Also I'm pretty sure Mary Elizabeth was actually the younger sister. If Eleanor's marriage to Snow was indeed in 1845, Mary Elizabeth was around 5 years old when the marriage took place.

I was curious too and started snooping. The Eleanor Houtz and the Mary Elizabeth Houtz that both married Lorenzo Snow were not sisters but cousins. They had different parents. Mary Elizabeth had a half sister named Eleanor but she married someone else.

M.

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Here is a thought from an outsider. If you don't have journals on why they got married, you can only assume. Making assumptions can problematic, especially if at a later date your daughter finds your assumptions were wrong. She feels anger and the "ew" factor about the age difference concerns her.

So, why not simply say, "Hon, I don't know why they entered into a marriage like that. The decisions we make about marriage have a huge effect on our lives. What things do you think you would miss by marrying so young? What goals do you want to accomplish before you marry? What type of man do you want to marry"

I think by doing this, it will get her focus off of an ancestor's perceived wrong doing and focus on how she can use the information to form decisions in her own life. She can't effect the past, and little can be gained from dwelling on it. She can use information from the past to help make decisions about her future. You can even spin it into a talk about purity- as many young marriages are "shotgun weddings."

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I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse but the distribution of the first marriage ages were on the links provided by myself and the other participants in this thread.

UtahJakey, you say you've provided links to the distribution? I'm not seeing your link. I see you've linked to findagrave.com, and an archived page from the NYTimes.

Could you point me to this link, or post it again please?

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Here is a thought from an outsider. If you don't have journals on why they got married, you can only assume. Making assumptions can problematic, especially if at a later date your daughter finds your assumptions were wrong. She feels anger and the "ew" factor about the age difference concerns her.

So, why not simply say, "Hon, I don't know why they entered into a marriage like that. The decisions we make about marriage have a huge effect on our lives. What things do you think you would miss by marrying so young? What goals do you want to accomplish before you marry? What type of man do you want to marry"

I think by doing this, it will get her focus off of an ancestor's perceived wrong doing and focus on how she can use the information to form decisions in her own life. She can't effect the past, and little can be gained from dwelling on it. She can use information from the past to help make decisions about her future. You can even spin it into a talk about purity- as many young marriages are "shotgun weddings."

This could easily be interpreted as skirting the issue, though. There are uncomfortable things in history (both church history and general history), and I don't think there's anything wrong with "dwelling on it" for a time, and trying to understand what might have lead someone in the past to make a decision that doesn't sit well with us today. Understanding the context wherein the decision was made can help us understand our past better, as well as prepare us to make wiser choices about our own future.

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UtahJakey, you say you've provided links to the distribution? I'm not seeing your link. I see you've linked to findagrave.com, and an archived page from the NYTimes.

Could you point me to this link, or post it again please?

The statistics I cited are from US Census data used in the FAIR link finrock posted.

You can find specific details for each census like the 1850 on here.

UJ

Edited by UtahJakey
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Another interesting point about this subject came up when my daughter and I were talking again last night. It was around dating and polygamy. She asked me "are polygamist men allowed to actively date to find new potential wives. Like when Pres. Snow was courting Minnie Jensen, did they go on dates prior to their engagement and marriage? What kind of a date does a 57 year old man and a 15 year old girl go on? "

I have to say I was a bit tongue tied. Does anyone know the dating rules that were observed when practicing polygamy?

UJ

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Another interesting point about this subject came up when my daughter and I were talking again last night. It was around dating and polygamy. She asked me "are polygamist men allowed to actively date to find new potential wives. Like when Pres. Snow was courting Minnie Jensen, did they go on dates prior to their engagement and marriage? What kind of a date does a 57 year old man and a 15 year old girl go on? "

I have to say I was a bit tongue tied. Does anyone know the dating rules that were observed when practicing polygamy?

UJ

I don't know the answer to your question but maybe you could give this book a try.

More Wives Than One: Transformation of the Mormon Marriage System, 1840-1910: Kathryn M Daynes: 9780252075605: Amazon.com: Books

M.

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Another interesting point about this subject came up when my daughter and I were talking again last night. It was around dating and polygamy. She asked me "are polygamist men allowed to actively date to find new potential wives. Like when Pres. Snow was courting Minnie Jensen, did they go on dates prior to their engagement and marriage? What kind of a date does a 57 year old man and a 15 year old girl go on? "

I have to say I was a bit tongue tied. Does anyone know the dating rules that were observed when practicing polygamy?

UJ

I'm in a marriage that has about a 20 year age gap and I find this topic still uncomfortable. Anyway, as previously noted, courtship and marriage in those days does not reflect the same culture as today. People married for many reasons, attraction and love, not always being apart of the mix if ever. I would assume that courtship was brief for most people, in some cases non-existent, and that marriage proceeded shortly after introductions. Marriages were often done in convenience of gaining a Title, or a husband that would take you off your parents' hands and provide for you. This said, I think it would also be naive to assume that while this was normal practice in a lot of cultures, certainly individuals (male and female) had uncertainties and concerns regarding their future.

I personally am very grateful to live in a time where many of us enjoy the freedoms that many others, our ancestors namely, did not. Whether the people of the past were happy or unhappy in their arrangements, many did not have the luxuries of choice that we do. It was a matter of survival and prosper.

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I'm in a marriage that has about a 20 year age gap and I find this topic still uncomfortable. Anyway, as previously noted, courtship and marriage in those days does not reflect the same culture as today.

20 years is still a lot closer that a 42 year age difference. That's probably about the same as you marrying your husbands father. With 2 generations between a couple it would probably take quite a while to feel comfortable romantically. Especially for a girl 15 years old.

I feel like the world is moving in a good direction in regards to marriage. Marriages are made by choice(mostly) and are viewed as equals and fathers take a much more active role in the home matters for a family.

UJ

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20 years is still a lot closer that a 42 year age difference. That's probably about the same as you marrying your husbands father. With 2 generations between a couple it would probably take quite a while to feel comfortable romantically. Especially for a girl 15 years old.

I feel like the world is moving in a good direction in regards to marriage. Marriages are made by choice(mostly) and are viewed as equals and fathers take a much more active role in the home matters for a family.

UJ

The point is, even a 20 year age gap is tough to swallow for a lot of people. Making it relevant to topic, it would be like a 15-year old girl marrying a 35-year old man. That's a pretty big maturity difference, in life experience and among other things. But to emphasise on what's been said already several times, romance was not a key ingredient when it came to matchmaking and marriage. You were blessed if romance and love blossomed but that wasn't always the case. I think preteens and teenagers grew up fast back in the old days, and knew what was expected of them. There are actually some cultures today that still match make young girls with much older men.

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Guest SmilesheHas

Excuse me, just wanted to make sure... all these laws were in fact passed? If so how do you think it affected the church.

In 1862, Congress passed the Morrill Antibigamy Act, which made practicing polygamy a felony. However, this law was full of loopholes (not the least of which was that bigamy means only two wives!) and didn't hold any weight in the Mormon-dominated Utah courts.

In 1874, the government resolved that judicial loophole with the Poland Act. This law stated that all polygamy cases would be tried in federal courts with federally appointed judges. This way, Mormon judges or juries couldn't just dismiss the cases.

In 1882, the Edmunds Act made unlawful cohabitation a crime, and anyone who broke the law could be imprisoned for six months. Unlawful cohabitation was a much easier judicial standard to prove than bigamy or polygamy, because prosecutors didn't have to provide evidence of a marriage.

In 1887, Congress passed the Edmunds-Tucker Act in a final attempt to drive the nail in the coffin of polygamy. This act accomplished three things:

• It disfranchised (took the vote away from) all the women of Utah and polygamous men.

• It froze all the Church's assets in excess of $50,000, basically bankrupting the Church and crippling its missionary efforts.

• It declared all children of plural marriages to be illegitimate in the eyes of the government.

Finally The "1890 Manifesto", sometimes simply called "The Manifesto", is a statement which officially disavowed the continuing practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Issued by church president Wilford Woodruff in September 1890, the Manifesto was a response to mounting anti-polygamy pressure from the United States Congress, which by 1890 had disincorporated the church, escheated its assets to the U.S. federal government, and imprisoned many prominent polygamist Mormons.

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Excuse me, just wanted to make sure... all these laws were in fact passed? If so how do you think it affected the church.

The same way if a law were passed now regarding gay marriage, or any other law in direct contradiction to doctrine.

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Guest SmilesheHas

I have read it now. It is something very similar to what I was taught. The church's leaders received revelations to cease polygamy. However this doesn't seem to be what happened, the church received a revelation to practice polygamy, when the government tightened its laws to suppress the practice, the church being forced to change or cease to be a church did what any logical organization would. It changed the offensive practice...because it was cornered to ...so it would seem. Why it was called revelation is beyond me, maybe you know.

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We have an article of faith stating that we believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. If that was important enough to include in 13 statements about our faith, it was important enough for the church to follow. Additionally I have no doubt that God knew the law would come forth, and by the time it did, the reason for His calling some to practice plural marriage had been largely fulfilled.

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I have read it now. It is something very similar to what I was taught. The church's leaders received revelations to cease polygamy. However this doesn't seem to be what happened, the church received a revelation to practice polygamy, when the government tightened its laws to suppress the practice, the church being forced to change or cease to be a church did what any logical organization would. It changed the offensive practice...because it was cornered to ...so it would seem. Why it was called revelation is beyond me, maybe you know.

Did you read this part?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for … any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice.

(Sometimes I think the best way for the Mormons to keep something a secret, is to put it in their scriptures. :D )

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Judging history by today's standards is not only wrong, it really is very foolish - you do not have the perspective the people involved did which makes you reach poor conclusions.

I can think of a number of what we refer to as 'May-Dec marriages' today that actually work for the people involved.

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