Incomplete Priesthood Line of Authority

[Jedi_Nephite]

At the time I was ordained an Elder, my father was a High Priest. He was also the one who ordained me to the office of Elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood. However, I recently learned that my priesthood line of authority would be through my father's priesthood line as a High Priest. So, I requested my priesthood line of authority through the Church, but the line of authority that they sent to me stopped with my father.

Confused, I called the Member and Statistical Records Division of the Church and inquired as to why my line of authority was incomplete. I was told that they do not have on record who ordained my father a High Priest. They have the date he was ordained to that office, but not who performed the ordination.

Unfortunately, my father passed away recently, so I am unable to ask him this information. I have contacted the Bishop he served with at the time he was ordained a High Priest, but he doesn't remember nor does the other counselor he served with in the Bishopric. I also contacted the Stake Clerk, who asked the members of the Stake Presidency at the time, and neither the Stake President nor his counselors remember. I've also asked close friends of my father's who are High Priests and in our ward at the time, and they don't remember either.

So, at this point, I'm kind of running out of leads, and I'm not sure where to go from here. The person I spoke to on the phone at the Member and Statistical Records Division of the Church said that if I can find out who ordained my father a High Priest, they can probably find out my proper priesthood line of authority.

I realize that not knowing my exact line of authority doesn't negate the validity of my own authority at all. However, should I have a son, or ordain someone else someday, I am sure they would like to know their complete line of authority. Plus, I would just like to know myself.

Has anyone had an issue like this before? And, if so, how were you able to get it resolved?

[Suzie]

Email them at: [email protected] and perhaps you will be in touch with someone else who will be able to help.

[Jedi_Nephite]

Email them at: [email protected] and perhaps you will be in touch with someone else who will be able to help.

Thank you. But, like I said, I did that already. That was how I discovered my line of authority was incomplete in the first place. I even went so far as to call them. They told me that I need to find out who ordained my father a High Priest in order for them to determine my priesthood line of authority.

[Suzie]

Thank you. But, like I said, I did that already. That was how I discovered my line of authority was incomplete in the first place. I even went so far as to call them. They told me that I need to find out who ordained my father a High Priest in order for them to determine my priesthood line of authority.

I don't know how to help. There MUST be someone close to your father who knows, I would suggest praying for guidance so that the Lord can guide you to the right person.

[Praetorian_Brow]

There is a possibility they were not confirmed at all, even if it sounds distastful.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[Just_A_Guy]

I think your next step is to go to the Church History Library and find out how they got the date. There must be a certificate of ordination somewhere--you need to find it. Also, touch base with your father's bishop/stake president again, and find out what kind of ward/stake histories were kept, whether someone still has them locally, or whether they were turned in to Salt Lake.

If all else fails, you could still see if someone can track your dad's line of authority through his ordination to the office of elder.

Or, figure out a way to get yourself ordained a high priest as quickly as possible. Then, it won't matter anymore.

[Magen_Avot]

I was lucky that the person who ordained me an Elder gave me his lineage. I had no idea what that really meant at the time, but when I ordained my sons, it was a rather great feeling to be able to give them mine.

When I was ordained a High Priest I had to ask my BP (who ordained me) for his LOA, like a dozen times. When I got it some pieces of information was missing. I was able to locate all but one date, and will have to go to the church for the ordination date of one individual. I framed the LOA and gave it to my BP, because it's that important to me.

I rarely remember who ordained who without notes though.

Checking the ward history is a great idea JAG.

Perhaps in the next fast and testimony meeting you can bear your testimony and then ask for anyone who might know.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[Jedi_Nephite]

I think your next step is to go to the Church History Library and find out how they got the date. There must be a certificate of ordination somewhere--you need to find it. Also, touch base with your father's bishop/stake president again, and find out what kind of ward/stake histories were kept, whether someone still has them locally, or whether they were turned in to Salt Lake.

If, by "Church History Library", you mean what is on record at our ward, when I asked my father's/my Bishop (we attended the same ward before he died) about it, he did look through some old records of the ward, but couldn't find anything.

One thing that the Stake Clerk did tell me, was that there was a brief period of time in the mid-nineties when the Church was not keeping records of certain ordinances. Given that my father was ordained a High Priest around that time, that might help explain why I'm having difficulty finding a line of authority for him. He also said that the only thing that he was able to find in the records at the stake center was an old spreadsheet that indicated the date he was ordained, but not who ordained him, or set him apart.

If all else fails, you could still see if someone can track your dad's line of authority through his ordination to the office of elder.

Any particular reason as to why I would want to do that? I've had more than one person suggest this to me before, but I'm not sure why, as that line of authority would not pertain to me. But, for the record, I already do have a copy of his line of authority through his ordination of Elder.

Or, figure out a way to get yourself ordained a high priest as quickly as possible. Then, it won't matter anymore.

That's an idea. Although, knowing 'Murphy's Law' I wouldn't be surprised if that happens after I get this sorted out.

[Jedi_Nephite]

I was able to locate all but one date, and will have to go to the church for the ordination date of one individual.

Now, when you say "church", what exactly do you mean? Your ward? Salt Lake?

[Just_A_Guy]

If, by "Church History Library", you mean what is on record at our ward, when I asked my father's/my Bishop (we attended the same ward before he died) about it, he did look through some old records of the ward, but couldn't find anything.

One thing that the Stake Clerk did tell me, was that there was a brief period of time in the mid-nineties when the Church was not keeping records of certain ordinances. Given that my father was ordained a High Priest around that time, that might help explain why I'm having difficulty finding a line of authority for him. He also said that the only thing that he was able to find in the records at the stake center was an old spreadsheet that indicated the date he was ordained, but not who ordained him, or set him apart.

Sounds like you've been busy! By "Church History Library", though, I mean central archives - in Salt Lake. I just can't fathom that the centralized church would give an instruction like the one your stake clerk recalls.

Did your dad or your mom keep a journal? How about the members of the bishopric, stake presidency, or high council at the time of his ordination? Did your dad have a sibling or a father or uncle who was already a high priest, who might have officiated? Did they keep journals?

Any particular reason as to why I would want to do that? I've had more than one person suggest this to me before, but I'm not sure why, as that line of authority would not pertain to me.

I know the convention is to trace the line of authority through the office the officiator held at the time of the ordination; but in realiy your dad's authority to confer the MP and ordain you an elder didn't come by virtue of his ordination as a high priest. He received that authority (subject, of course, to the keys of the local leaders) from the moment he himself was ordained an elder. The only way his ordination to the office of elder would "not pertain to you", is if--for a split second during the ceremony in which he was ordained a high priest--your dad lost the authority he had held as an elder, and then had it returned to him (with more) as a high priest. That notion, as far as I know, is without precedent in LDS thought.

[Guest Doctrine]

What about your mother or aunts uncles someone could have been in the room when he was ordained, also what about the stake president of the time or members of the stake high council. Also if you like, ask the man who ordained your father an elder it could also be the same person that did the high priest as well.

[Jedi_Nephite]

Sounds like you've been busy! By "Church History Library", though, I mean central archives - in Salt Lake. I just can't fathom that the centralized church would give an instruction like the one your stake clerk recalls.

That was my feeling, too. But there was something on LDS.org that supported his claim. I would need to find the link, but it was from a 1994 edition of the Ensign.

Did your dad or your mom keep a journal? How about the members of the bishopric, stake presidency, or high council at the time of his ordination? Did your dad have a sibling or a father or uncle who was already a high priest, who might have officiated? Did they keep journals?

My Dad hadn't kept a formal journal in many years. However, he was meticulous at keeping records as well as a personal log. We have searched his belongings several times, but haven't found any clues whatsoever.

The Stake President at the time said there is no record of it in his own journal.

My father does have siblings, but my parents joined the Church after they were married, and are the only members in each of their families.

I know the convention is to trace the line of authority through the office the officiator held at the time of the ordination; but in realiy your dad's authority to confer the MP and ordain you an elder didn't come by virtue of his ordination as a high priest. He received that authority (subject, of course, to the keys of the local leaders) from the moment he himself was ordained an elder. The only way his ordination to the office of elder would "not pertain to you", is if--for a split second during the ceremony in which he was ordained a high priest--your dad lost the authority he had held as an elder, and then had it returned to him (with more) as a high priest. That notion, as far as I know, is without precedent in LDS thought.

That's what I originally thought, as well. However, according to lds.org, at this link, the proper line of authority would be through the one who performed the ordination:

"When a man ordains another to an office in the priesthood, the person ordained will determine his line of authority by the priesthood office held by the one performing the ordination at the time the ordination was performed. For example, if a high priest ordains his son to be an elder, his son would trace his line of authority through the high priest line of authority of his father."

[Just_A_Guy]

That's what I originally thought, as well. However, according to lds.org, at this link, the proper line of authority would be through the one who performed the ordination:

"When a man ordains another to an office in the priesthood, the person ordained will determine his line of authority by the priesthood office held by the one performing the ordination at the time the ordination was performed. For example, if a high priest ordains his son to be an elder, his son would trace his line of authority through the high priest line of authority of his father."

With all due respect to the article's author, I don't look to the Church News to determine doctrine. The article certainly contains the general policy; but the Church has already made an exception to it in your case by not demanding that you be ordained an elder a second time. The Church recognizes your priesthood. Ergo, they recognize that you have a valid line of authority. Ergo (given that they cannot provide you with the line of authority through your father's HP ordination), they must be recognizing the line of authority that runs through your father's ordination to the office of an Elder.

It sounds to me like you've got the makings of a great detective story--and you're already doing yeoman's work on it--but I really wouldn't sweat it if you aren't able to ferret this out anytime soon.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Jedi_Nephite]

Also if you like, ask the man who ordained your father an elder it could also be the same person that did the high priest as well.

Well, that person lives in a different state. It had probably been at least over 30 years since my Dad last saw him before he died.

[Speakzeasy]

Here is a thought. During the period of 1981 until 1994 I volunteer with the Family History Library (FHL) here in Salt Lake City. My area was LDS research. So here is an idea. The ward records were kept in books prior to the popularity of the computer. These books were kept by the ward clerk and have been microfilmed (at least nearly all of them that exist) and can be found or requested through the Family History Department. I have not been there for a while, so I am not sure what type of restrictions there are to accessing the microfilm for these records. Most of the ward records that I went through or remember seeing in the index at the FHL where 1960 and earlier. There are some latter records, you will need to look at the FHL Catalog for the ward your interested in. When the records were transferred they usually moved the information from the books to the electronic data base. It does not mean that they got everything. If the ward is old enough you will find multiple books. Usually because the clerks filled a book and started a new one. You can look into it at the local Family History Center and see if the film(s) can be requested. If not Salt Lake FHL has them. The LDS Church Archives has all records available for membership records in book form (usually on microfilm).

The ward records are pretty straight foreword in their organization. The clerks writing may be another story. The more resent the record the more likely it is to be typed rather hand written. Hope this helps.

P.S. If the ward boundaries changed the record goes the old ward and a new ward record is begun under new wards name. Something to watch for when searching these records.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[MarginOfError]

I apologize for arguing such pithy points JAG, but I did learn a few things about this during my time as clerk, so I'll do my best to explain a few things more clearly.

Sounds like you've been busy! By "Church History Library", though, I mean central archives - in Salt Lake. I just can't fathom that the centralized church would give an instruction like the one your stake clerk recalls.

During the dark days of MIS, updates to membership records were recorded in the following manner.

• The ward clerk entered all the changes into his computer and printed a report of the change.
• The ward clerk mailed all those changes to SLC
• SLC made the changes on the report to the central records
• SLC sends the clerk a report which he reviews to make sure all the changes were made correctly.
• If any changes were not made, lather, rinse, repeat.

As you can imagine, this was a tedious process, and so they made some decisions in order to cut down on the amount of information being transferred back and forth. In those days, all that was needed to record an ordination to priesthood office was the date of ordination. If the clerk was submitting the change, it was assumed the stake president had authorized it. Church HQ never sees any certificates (they still don't, those are all managed locally) and, in those days, only had access to a very small subset of the information stored at the ward level.

This was problematic because the only record that really mattered was what was in SLC. If things didn't get transferred to SLC, as far as the Church was concerned, they didn't happen. Yet, the most extensive records were kept at the ward level. It's only been since about 2010 that the bulk of the information has been centralized. Under the most current architecture of MLS, the ward computer connects to the central computer and refreshes with the most up to date information. We are living in a far more enlightened time as far as informatics go in the Church.

Did your dad or your mom keep a journal? How about the members of the bishopric, stake presidency, or high council at the time of his ordination? Did your dad have a sibling or a father or uncle who was already a high priest, who might have officiated? Did they keep journals?

At this point, I would guess this is the only way you'll find out who did it. Although there is a glimmer of hope that it might have been the same person who ordained him an Elder (though I'm not optimistic).

I know the convention is to trace the line of authority through the office the officiator held at the time of the ordination; but in realiy your dad's authority to confer the MP and ordain you an elder didn't come by virtue of his ordination as a high priest. He received that authority (subject, of course, to the keys of the local leaders) from the moment he himself was ordained an elder. The only way his ordination to the office of elder would "not pertain to you", is if--for a split second during the ceremony in which he was ordained a high priest--your dad lost the authority he had held as an elder, and then had it returned to him (with more) as a high priest. That notion, as far as I know, is without precedent in LDS thought.

This is a distinction that really holds no bearing in how the Church organizes the line of authority. The line of authority is traced through the officiator's office. It is the office that defines the rights, privileges, and authorities that the officiator is able to exercise and so the line of authority is traced through those rights, privileges, and authorities. This was explained to my father when he was ordained a bishop and high priest by Joseph B Wirthlin. Elder Wirthlin gave my father his new line of authority, and it is traced through the date that Elder Wirthlin was ordained an apostle.

Interestingly, the Church doesn't record lines of authority through the offices of seventies or patriarchs. My best understanding is that this is because these offices are not offices of general priesthood function but of specific responsibility. So, a member of the Quorum of the Seventy, I believe, still traces his line of authority through the person who ordained him to the office of High Priest. This is why when I made my priesthood visual aid I did not make seventy or patriarch a superset of high priest; they are effectively subtle extensions of the office of high priest.

With all due respect to the article's author, I don't look to the Church News to determine doctrine. The article certainly contains the general policy; but the Church has already made an exception to it in your case by not demanding that you be ordained an elder a second time. The Church recognizes your priesthood. Ergo, they recognize that you have a valid line of authority. Ergo (given that they cannot provide you with the line of authority through your father's HP ordination), they must be recognizing the line of authority that runs through your father's ordination to the office of an Elder.

The bolded part is not correct. The Church did not require he be ordained an elder a second time because it had been properly recorded by the policies of the time. This must have been so because they had a date. (in fact, even now, if a person was ordained but it wasn't recorded, the witnesses need only provide the month and year the ordination was performed. It can still be recorded without the officiator). So, in actuality, the Church is recognizing the line of authority through the father's ordination to High Priest.

[Just_A_Guy]

MOE, I appreciate the corrections and observations; but it frankly boggles my mind that our Church--which is so obsessed about its body of priesthood holders being able to trace their authority directly to the angelic ministrants of the Restoration--would basically come out and say to anyone "well, you're an Elder; but we don't know exactly through whom and it really doesn't matter".

I don't dispute the convention of tracing the lineage through the actual office at time of ordination. On the other hand: Given the choice between tracing one's priesthood authority through a known line that culminates in an "inferior" ordination to Elder, versus tracing it through an unknown line culminating in a "superior" ordination to High Priest--it seems counterintuitive and frankly bizarre that the Church would encourage the latter.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Jedi_Nephite]

Although there is a glimmer of hope that it might have been the same person who ordained him an Elder (though I'm not optimistic).

I am certain that the person who ordained him an Elder is not the same person who ordained him a High Priest. My family moved to a different state by the time my father was ordained a High Priest.

[Speakzeasy]

My family moved to a different state by the time my father was ordained a High Priest.

Moving from State to State makes this type of research more the interesting. If you know the address to the home/apartment that was lived in at the time of ordination, that may still be workable.

If you know the city and you, or somebody you know lives there, the address may attained at the Public Library.

There are directories published by a company once named was R.L. Polk, now called Polk City Directories. You can find out if they publish a directory for the city/community you are interested in from a list at the following web site:

Home - Polk City Directories click "Directory Search" at the top right of the page.

or by calling the local Public Library to see if they have them (most useful).

If there is a directory for your City/Community of interest, and you have the name of the head of household, the address maybe listed. The Head of Household can sometimes be another family member/friend in the case of multiple families or children living with other family/friends in the same unit. The listing usually gives the Head of Household occupation.

Note that when going through the Polk directories that they will sometimes cover an area larger then the published area name would suggest. This is more because municipal boundaries change from time to time or part of the county is included in their survey. You may want to go through each year that the Polk Directory was published for the area of interest. This is because people move around at times. The Head of Household may change as well.

Once you have an address you can call the membership department and ask them about information so that you can contact the Bishop/Clerk in the ward that covers the area in which the address is located.

Note that the Contact at the Membership Office maybe willing, if it is possible, to provide a date of creation of the Ward. Possibly with Ward(s) from which it was created. Simply something you might ask while your on the phone with that office.

When contacting the Clerk for the current Ward in the area of interest. Ask when the ward was created and about previous ward boundaries. If the Ward boundaries has not changed your in luck. If they have changed, then with some luck, you can find out more from the Clerk in the previous ward(s). There maybe a Stake directory that gives information about contacting other Ward Bishop/Clerk(s). Contact the Bishop/Clerk(s) in the previous ward(s) that is a associated with the division of the Ward boundaries for the area of interest. You probably will be able to contact the Ward by telephone, if you have an address.

In the end you have the name of the Ward for which the records need to be searched.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy