Physics Questions about gravity


ZionsRodeVos
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No, no, theories are proven. I was responding to someones post about "just a theory".

Because when you leave the rigors of science terminology for every day use theory is used to mean something else entirely. This can easily lead to confusion when people mix the usage and are not aware of it

For example

In scientific terms no they don't.

However 'I have a hypothesis' just isn't the same even though it would be accurate.

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Because when you leave the rigors of science terminology for every day use theory is used to mean something else entirely. This can easily lead to confusion when people mix the usage and are not aware of it

For example

In scientific terms no they don't.

However 'I have a hypothesis' just isn't the same even though it would be accurate.

I was really hoping for them to break down into an argument over the words 'theory' and 'hypothesis'

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Theories are not proven, they just haven't yet been proven wrong. The scientific method as given by

.

eh, kinda, they are logic structures built upon proven hypotheses. I wasn't overstating myself by much.

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As to my limited knowledge, which I wouldn't say is greater than yours, I have understood the terminology "gravitational pull" with regard to the rotation of each planet.

Again, I haven't studied this enough to give really any strong conclusion.

afaik, the rotation of the planet actually produces a small amount of centrifugal force that pushes in the opposite direction of gravity, so it lessens the effect of gravity on us a teeny, eensy amount.

(think about being on a merry-go-round and which direction it throws you, out, away from the merry go round)

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I've started looking into quantum mechanics and I think particle theory too. Is either or both of these what they call string theory?

not really string theory is that tiny string loops vibrate to create everything

Yep, I'm writing a sci-fi novel and do believe I have understood the difference between weight and mass. Whatever your mass is it stays the same unless you have a way of changing it, such as disintegrating a huge portion of a moon or planet would change its mass.

Does this problem of maintaining physical things moving bother many physicists? Is this why it is still called a theory even though the mathematics for it are very good?

Not for most scientist that realize that this is just an model

When was this Dark Energy discovered? Hmm, hadn't realized there was a force like Dark Energy working against gravity. I need to learn more about it.

I've been learning about graviton's too. Do you think that if it is found that graviton's exist that will replace the portion of Einstein's theory that spacetime is warped?

We already know that space time is warped and that mass is associated with the phenomenon. Discovering gravitons is more likely to give us better understanding of how we could create space time warps - perhaps even a warp drive for a space trip. This is where my theory comes into play. My theory is that gravity is week because much of the force is absorbed into another dimension and then reflected back into our space time connecting in essence two points at a distance in our space time. This is slightly different than a worm hole because gravity would create a bubble in our space of an additional dimension. Although all forces would create this bubble (universal field theory) it would not be as prominent as the gravity bubble which is associated with mass.

The bubble would be associated with the type of force or energy - thus each particle of matter has its particular bubble that either pushes apart (bubbles of reflection or addition) or attracts which brings things together (bubbles of inflection or subtraction). Since the bubbles create a field of additional dimension in space time where time or the speed of light does not exist; then there is a slight difference or delta that exists between the current theory (particle theory, electrical theory and the week and gravity) of how we calculate two things of attracting or repelling forces. The closer the relative speeds of particles are in relationship to each other the greater this delta would be. Since this is an exponential relationship the closer we get to the speed of light the more pronounced the delta.

I have calculated that using protons (positively charged particles with mass) and accelerating them to 80% of the speed of light in close proximity to each other we should produce a delta sufficient enough to be detectable (measured).

Can you go to CERN and use theirs? Could anyone with interest go there and set up experiments?

both money and politics are involved

That is part of what bothers me why physicists say gravity is so weak and yet I feel it very strongly keeping me on earth.

because the mass of the earth is so large - think about a small magnet that is able to overcome the force of gravity and lift magnetic mass.

the Traveler

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Theories about gravity seem to indicate that all mass has gravity and yet the gravity does not become strong enough to be felt until an object is about moon size. Why is that? Or is it that not everything with mass has gravity only the large objects? Is there any proof that smaller objects, say the size of a marble, have gravity?

That is part of what bothers me why physicists say gravity is so weak and yet I feel it very strongly keeping me on earth.

Don't fear the numbers here.

F=G*m1*m2/r^2

Force = (some gravitational constant) * (the mass of the first object) * (the mass of the second object) / (the distance between the objects) ^ 2

The force you feel pulling you to the earth is proportional to the mass of the earth, and your mass. So the larger you are or the larger the earth is, the stronger the pull. Additionally, the r^2 means that as you get farther apart the force drops fast. The gravitational constant is calculated to be about 6.674 * 10^(-11) N (m/kg)^2. If you're not familiar with it, N is a Newton, simple used for the unit conversions. It's 1 kg*m/s. The important thing with this constant is to just notice the dimension we're dealing with. 10^(-11) is really small.

I'll pause here to mention that this equation is essentially a model. It describes relationships, but not necessarily the underlying cause. It's the equivalent of saying there's always 2 Sith lords, but without knowing the master/apprentice relationship. This doesn't take into account what causes the attraction, just that it is there and manifested in these ratios.

Now let's plug in some numbers. You feel gravity pulling you so strongly on the earth. If you want to double the gravitational force being applied on you, you have 3 options:

  • Double your mass
  • Double the earth's mass
  • Reduce the distance between you and the center of the earth to (current radius / sqrt(2)). (You'll need to go down some 2000 km to achieve this - roughly a third of the way down)

You mention two marbles, let's upgrade those to 3 kg bowling balls on a frictionless surface 1 meter apart. The force on one ball from the other amounts to

F = (6.674 * 10^(-11)) * (3) * (3) / (1)^2 = 6.0066 x 10^(-10) N

Each ball would accelerate at the rate of 2.0022 x 10^(-10) m/s^2 toward the other. You would watch them slowly move towards each other for 2 weeks before finally hitting (a fortnight for a yard? that makes football look like baseball).

Traveller's magnet example is a perfect one. Two competing forces are trying to pull the metal object. The earth pulls it down and the magnet pulls it up. When you find a magnet strong enough to lift the object, it doesn't even compare to the size of the earth. So perhaps it is best to say gravity is a relatively week force when compared with others.

All that being said, we still have to give gravity props. It applies to everything that has mass. Take a subset of that (everything that carries a charge) and you have the electromagnetic force - very powerful, but it's only given to the natural world elite.

Edited by mordorbund
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Hello ZionsRodeVas. Interesting question. :) It made me wonder about other planets in our solar system and the variety of gravitational pull of the different planets. There are some that have much stronger pull than something like our moon. Why? I know you question was about small objects vs. big but I only make this comment to point out they are probably different variables that play into answering this interesting question. Thank you for that sir. :)

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Yeah, that theory sets aside a lot to give optimal conditions and illustrate what would happen.

And if you are a geologist then I may just have some other questions for you.

I'm a geologist in training. If you have a question I'll take a crack at it, though I'm at the point where I'm broadening my base of geologist knowledge. Deepening it comes later.

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Yeah, I focused on small objects because it is easy to observe the gravity of a large object.

I have yet to get into the mathematics of gravity but as I understand it those formulas only accurately calculate gravity's effect without saying where the gravity is coming from.

So Traveler with your theory if gravity were not absorbed into another dimension then gravity would be much stronger than it is?

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Don't fear the numbers here.

F=G*m1*m2/r^2

Force = (some gravitational constant) * (the mass of the first object) * (the mass of the second object) / (the distance between the objects) ^ 2

Too late, I am going dowwwwnnnn with the ship! And I fear there are no life jackets for me!:tombstone:

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Yeah, I focused on small objects because it is easy to observe the gravity of a large object.

I have yet to get into the mathematics of gravity but as I understand it those formulas only accurately calculate gravity's effect without saying where the gravity is coming from.

So Traveler with your theory if gravity were not absorbed into another dimension then gravity would be much stronger than it is?

Just a couple of notes: I am not the only one with the theory that a major part of the force of gravity is realized in other dimensions. I would like to brag that my theory precedes most but I really have not done much for many years with my theory. I use to be afraid that someone would still my theory but now my fear it that it will be lost till later. The short answer to your question is that if the full force of gravity, according to my theory (and others) was felt in this dimension – our universe would have never existed and the Big Bang could not have ever occurred. We would be locked into a singularity (very big black hole) with matter and dimensional space as we know it and the physical universe we enjoy would be an impossible existence. If whatever is sustaining weak gravity were to no longer work; our universe would very quickly collapse. First into a vast collection of black holes where ever there is physical matter and then into an eventual very massive singularity.

For some time scientists have theorized that there are two kinds of “things” in our empirical universe. We call these two things – fermions and bosons. It is my personal belief that these two things lend themselves to what we understand as physical and spiritual matter. Fermions being what we normally associate with the physical universe and bosons as things spiritual. As it turns out – everything that we associate with as matter actually consists of particles that are both fermions and bosons which put together form a higher order or more complex kind of fermion. It is also interesting the laws of physics that govern fermions and bosons are somewhat (even fundamentally) different.

My theory is that the primary difference between fermions and bosons is that bosons are particles that possess an additional dimension – which I believe is also a characteristic of spiritual matter which is defined as “light” (a very interesting aspect of bosons). I theorize that this “light” permeates all matter and gives all things physical power to exist in our universe. This means that everything in this universe has a spiritual counterpart. Sound familiar?

Current theory is that there are 4 forces that can act on matter at a distance. These 4 forces are gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear forces. Note that these forces act at a distance and do not require energy be passed through collusion. The theory is that as matter (complex fermions) get closer to each other that it is possible that they give off or pick up bosons from each other and that this exchange causes attractions and repulsions as well as changes in characteristics of the fermions that come in each other’s vicinity. This is where gravitons come into play – if they really exist. My theory is that since the greater part of gravitons exists in another dimension – we will not find much of them in our space time. But I also believe we can find traces and influences of their existence. And when we do we will prove the existence of that which influences our space and time but is primarily spiritual or of another dimension, including the very power of G-d and the means by which he created the universe.

The Traveler

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I've just thought of another question related to gravity.

According to Einstein's general theory of relativity objects with sufficient mass warp spacetime and objects in this warped spacetime orbit around it. That explains how the moon orbits the earth and the earth orbits the sun.

Also, I am reading that the sun/our solar system orbits the center of the milky way. Is there some object so massive in the center of the milky way that has warped spacetime so much that it affects our solar system that is so far from the center of the milky way? And if there is not then how do theories of gravity account for that?

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Thanks for the link.

So the black hole is the object that is doing this. Correct me if my logic sounds flawed.

Basically we have a black hole at the center of our galaxy causing a massive warp in space all around it and so our sun orbits this black hole. At the same time our sun has enough mass to warp the space around it enough that the planets of our solar system orbit it and are not influenced by the massive black hole at the center else the planets would no longer be orbiting the sun and the same goes for the moon orbiting earth.

What an incredible system!

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Well, we are affected by the super massive, in the same way the moon is affected by the sun.

The moon orbits the earth, the earth orbits the sun. Since the moon is following the earth in it's orbit, the moon is also going round and round with the earth in it's orbit around the sun. Just as the earth is following the sun round and round in it's orbit around the super-massive black-hole.

The moon actually wiggles in it's orbit, getting pulled toward the sun by it's gravity, it's slowly moving away from earth and getting a larger, or longer orbit. Likewise, the planets (i don't know this) probably wiggle in their orbits getting pulled a bit by other large sources of gravity like the super massive black hole that is likely at the center of the milky way.

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Well, we are affected by the super massive, in the same way the moon is affected by the sun.

The moon orbits the earth, the earth orbits the sun. Since the moon is following the earth in it's orbit, the moon is also going round and round with the earth in it's orbit around the sun. Just as the earth is following the sun round and round in it's orbit around the super-massive black-hole.

The moon actually wiggles in it's orbit, getting pulled toward the sun by it's gravity, it's slowly moving away from earth and getting a larger, or longer orbit. Likewise, the planets (i don't know this) probably wiggle in their orbits getting pulled a bit by other large sources of gravity like the super massive black hole that is likely at the center of the milky way.

There is a little more going on - actually there is a lot more going on. About 20 years ago a super cluster of galaxies was discovered in a quiet far away corner of our universe that is hundreds of thousands of times larger than our galaxy. We are still trying to wrap our minds around what holds a super cluster together. One problem is that such a massive black hole should exceed the threshold of necessary mass to create its very own Big Bang.

But there is more. That super cluster is moving the wrong direction. Not only is it moving the wrong direction it is moving several times faster than the rest of the universe is expanding. The initial label of this problem was "The Great Attractor". More recently this has been given the title of "Dark Matter", which is much more massive that all the collective mass of the super cluster. It is called "Dark Matter" because there is no light coming from this stuff - none and that is a lot of stuff without light.

It is now estimated that there is 4 times the amount of "Dark Matter" in our universe than there is the regular stuff that gives off any light so that we can see or detect it - including super massive Black Holes. But we are not done yet!!!

About 10 years ago we discovered that not only is the universe expanding - beyond centripetal orbital forces working against gravity but there is another much more powerful force. That Force has been given the label of "Dark Energy" because like Dark Matter it is not giving off any light. This is much more problematic on so many more levels. This is the first discovery of any energy that does not emit any kind or frequency of electrical magnetic energy. You cannot believe how many holes this blows in theories; including Einsteins E=mc**2. Even more it is generally agreed that Dark Energy makes up 75% of the stuff in the universe. So in short there is much more going on, even in galaxies than the explanations of gravity from a super massive Black Hole.

I personally believe it to be somewhat comical that so many brilliant minds have taken all this in with a willingness to discover more yet in the next breath say that G-d does not exists because we have not found any evidence of such influence and we can explain everything without a G-d? Really; the more we explain the more there is left unexplained. The one caveat to all this is that theology is so far behind all this - that it is not even entered into the discussion.

Truly my friends - are we not seeing the fulfillment of the prophesies concerning the last days and the restoration of "All Things" beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Is this not the greatest time ever to be living?

The Traveler

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Wow, so much to think about.

Yes we live in a wonderful time with so much being discovered at a rapid pace.

My view on it is that with everything we have learned and know about how the universe was created is that it has all been done by our heavenly father, at least for what is closest to the earth and the rest is either by him or others who have gained their exaltation and are ready to create worlds.

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Wow, so much to think about.

Yes we live in a wonderful time with so much being discovered at a rapid pace.

My view on it is that with everything we have learned and know about how the universe was created is that it has all been done by our heavenly father, at least for what is closest to the earth and the rest is either by him or others who have gained their exaltation and are ready to create worlds.

G-d is the most brilliant, intelligent, exciting, exact and precise scientist I have ever encountered. I also find him the most simplistic, uncomplicated and easy to understand theologian I have ever encountered.

The Traveler

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