Someone doing temple work for my deceased family members?

[Robb8547]

So I am new to the church, I am 21 and loving it.Except today we were doing family history and I found my great grand parents and great-great on my mom's side. I was very excited, but come to know that temple work has already been done for all of them We have no idea who did it and myself and my family are VERY upset that someone has been baptizing my family members and we don't even know who they are, I am the only LDS family member that we know of. What should I do?

[tubaloth]

I'm not sure what you want to do? You want to find the person that did it and do what? So if you find out some distance relative did it, then what?

It is a good think they have the Gospel now right?

[Robb8547]

No, not at all. How would you feel if some "distance" relative has been baptizing your family members without you knowing? I am sure you would like to know who baptized your deceased mother or father? My grandmother is a Catholic and out of respect I would at least ask her. But my family is so upset at this they don't want me to do it to any family now.

[bytor2112]

That IS what is done in Temples....and seriously, if ordinances were only performed after a living ancestor joined the church the work would never progress. Your great grandparents are likely rejoicing in Paradise because someone did there work for them. You will do the same for others who are not your family members.

[Dravin]

How would you feel if some "distance" relative has been baptizing your family members without you knowing?

Those types of question always lose their rhetorical punch when the people you ask them to respond with something like, "Just fine." Or in the case of the 'Would you want someone to...' versions they respond with, "Yes." This isn't to discount your feelings, but they won't necessarily be shared by everyone here.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Dravin

[Robb8547]

I understand, but my family is very upset over it, I mean my grandmother isn't even LDS nor is anyone else in my family that we know of and they don't share the same belief that they are "in paradise". I would want to know if someone has been doing temple work or any kind of ritual to my grand parents if I wasn't a member, not knowing other wise is just being almost a stalker.

[Dravin]

I understand, but my family is very upset over it, I mean my grandmother isn't even LDS nor is anyone else in my family that we know of and they don't share the same belief that they are "in paradise".

Do they believe that LDS rituals are efficacious? That is to say, what change has happened to the deceased, in their belief, since they've been baptized by proxy? From a non-believers prospective it's the equivalent to someone grabbing names from a phone book and declaring you Klingon. Unless of course they belong to a religion that disagrees with our claims and beliefs but still believes that our rituals are efficacious, such a religion leaves me a bit confused but I recognize there is a lot of diversity of belief out there.

I would want to know if someone has been doing temple work or any kind of ritual to my grand parents if I wasn't a member, not knowing other wise is just being almost a stalker.

Lacking any efficacy they didn't do any ritual to your grandparents. What they did was use their name during a ritual.

Edit: That said, I understand that how we feel can be incredibly visceral.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Dravin

[zippy_do46]

What do you believe? You are a member of the Church now. Do you believe in the temple work? As a convert myself I did somethings in the Church because I know this was commanded. Then as I grew stronger in the Church and developed my own testimony I realize what I was doing was what my Heavenly Father wanted me to do. I also work in the Family History Center and know the Church is doing everything it can do. At some point we as members must realize that the Family History of Families is just that, Families. You stated that you do not know who did this. Yet someone did summit this to the Center. These names are not just "picked out of a hat so to speak". Somewhere family is having their family work done. Your family line has come in play because of common ground. I urge you to do more work and find out where those lines have become linked. I was working on my line and did not know that my own grandmother had 2 brothers. I was so young when she was with us I did not remember them. My parents have passed and I do not have anyone I can ask. I also have the problem of divorce between my parents. Somewhere up my line names were summitted. The blessing of computers have link families that we do not even know we have. In the right light know that this can be a good thing as you work and come into the knowledge of your family.

Just_A_Guy has made a good point. The Church is and has been working on setting policies for such problems that modern technology was shown us.

Robb8547, you have to remember that even our Dead have a choice. They can accept or reject the work you do for them. I hope that you move forward with your work with your Family and with your understanding what Temple work is.

Edited July 25, 2013 by zippy_do46

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi Robb -

I, for one, understand where you're coming from. My grandmother was born into a Mormon family, was baptized at the age of 8 by her father (who was her bishop), etc; but various distant cousins have rebaptized her posthumously no fewer than three times. In an intangible way, I feel like a part of her identity is being denied or re-written by these thoughtless individuals (who, frankly, can't even be bothered to learn or observe church policy with regard to recently-deceased individuals). From a gospel-knowledge standpoint, of course, I realize that's all nonsense. But I can sympathize with what a non-Mormon would be feeling as they see the legacies and memory of their ancestors being (as they see it) systematically co-opted.

But I also think that, once we get back a couple of generations, people do need to chill out a little bit. I have no more "right" to the legacy of my great-great grandmother Ray, for example, than any of her other 300-odd descendants.

The awkward part, for you, is your great-grandparents--who have a living daughter, but who also probably were born over 95 years ago and thus, under Church policy, were "fair game".

Edited July 25, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[mnn727]

I found the same thing except it was much closer: Father, Uncle, grandparents. I thought I was the first Mormon in my family, turns out a Great Aunt converted years before me and was busily doing all the family she knew - even when she got dates wrong by a year or more.

I was mad to begin with, but then I thought, well, Dad, Uncle, etc didn't have to wait decades for me to finally join and get around to my family history and Temple work. So it worked out better for them.

My only peeve was that she wasn't even close on a few birth/death dates - she could have researched better or picked up a phone and called.

[NeuroTypical]

I found my great grand parents and great-great on my mom's side.

My sister does geneology. My dad's great-great-grandparent sailed from England to the US in the mid 1800's. My sister finally tracked down all of his descendants - hundreds and hundreds of them. People in half a dozen different states. People with lots and lots of different last names. People in dozens of different family units who will probably never know members of the other units. I personally actually only know maybe a dozen or two of them.

You keep saying 'we' and 'my family' and all - how many total descendents did your great-great have? Does everybody know everyone else? Are you sure?

Go to https://createfan.com/ and see your fan chart - I was totally blown away by mine. Show it to your upset relatives - they may find themselves too interested to be upset.

[Robb8547]

I am only concerned about my grand mother. She is the oldest living descent on that side of the family and it's not a matter of doing it, it's a matter of getting permission. She almost had a stroke over it and I felt really bad about it. I understand that the further you go back, the more relatives but this hit my grandmother personally because she is the daughter and grand daughter of these people. Not to mention the person doing it shouldn't be unless she is related to us correct?

[Just_A_Guy]

I am only concerned about my grand mother. She is the oldest living descent on that side of the family and it's not a matter of doing it, it's a matter of getting permission. She almost had a stroke over it and I felt really bad about it. I understand that the further you go back, the more relatives but this hit my grandmother personally because she is the daughter and grand daughter of these people. Not to mention the person doing it shouldn't be unless she is related to us correct?

The lds.org link I provided earlier suggests that permission from the nearest-living-relative is only needed if the deceased was born less than 95 years ago. So I think doing your great-grandparents was technically kosher under existing Church policy, but it sure puts you in an awkward situation. (Personally, I think the policy should be simplified to "must have either permission or no living sibling/parent/child/spouse, regardless of birthdate"; but for now the situation--unfortunately--is what it is.)

[NeuroTypical]

Not to mention the person doing it shouldn't be unless she is related to us correct?

That's my point - how many people are descendants of your grandmother's mother and grandmother? Any of those people (and there could be hundreds) "should be doing it", because they're related. Your grandmother may have never met many of them, or even know of their existence.

Think about it - how well do you know your grandmother's brothers and sisters and their families? Do you even know if your grandmother has any? I'm vaguely aware of some on my mother's side, and totally unaware of my father's side. Well, your grandmother is in the same boat.

I feel bad when people almost have strokes because of percieved harm too. Maybe learning the rest of the story will help.

[Robb8547]

That's my point - how many people are related to your grandmother's mother and grandmother? Any of those people (and there could be hundreds) "should be doing it", because they're related. Your grandmother may have never met many of them, or even know of their existence.

Think about it - how well do you know your grandmother's brothers and sisters and their families? Do you even know if your grandmother has any? I'm vaguely aware of some on my mother's side, and totally unaware of my father's side. Well, your grandmother is in the same boat.

I feel bad when people almost have strokes because of percieved harm too. Maybe learning the rest of the story will help.

Well yes you have a good point, but she doesn't understand who could've done it, the whole entire family was raised Catholic. It makes me kind of upset too because these people have a lot of meaning to my family and I would have rather done it than opposed to someone just being a distant "relative". I will look into it more. Is there anyway to get information on the person who has done it. If come to find out that the person did it was in fact by chance a close relative, we wouldn't be as upset (or at least I wouldn't be). We just don't want random people doing it claiming they are related to us.

[NeuroTypical]

At one time, I was able to see ordinance information online. I can't for the life of me remember what website or program though.

Hey Geneaologists! Is there a way to search online for who did the ordinances?

[drham3rd]

Robb857,

Go to your ward clerk. Ask for your membership sheet to get your membership number. Take the number and go to new.family search.org and set up your account. Put in any of those relatives into the search window. When get to next page, choose that person, if more than one person with name, choose based on any data you have. Click on go to, which is blue box on extreme left. This will bring up the tree with the family name you choose. Scroll down until you see a column of grey buttons, choose second item. Next page pop up, look on right hand side any line item about that person, you will see who submitted the information. Click on the submitter name should provde contact information about that submitter. Beware, there are times when it was submitted from Salt Lake or multiple submitters. In that event, this was done by someone with the calling of an extractor. This means that they research courthouses, census records, ect and report this data to Salt lake and from that it becomes a temple name to have the ordinances performed. Hope this helps. This information comes from my wife who is a family history specialist.

Feel free to contact me by leaving a message here if need additional information...

[Quin]

We had something similar happen (as have many). Starting in reverse order

What I learned:

- Compassion for others (classic example: nazi era Jews added). After all, if I feel gutted when I'm a MEMBER of the church, and have this as my end desire anyhow... How much more understandable their pain/outrage?

- Respect for the rules. The rules in FamHistWork are in place for a reason. Several reasons, to be sure, but the KINDNESS to those in grief or in wait by restricting who can add whoms name when is just so very characteristic of this church that I love so deeply.

... Personally, I'd never understood why anyone would be upset (after all, either you don't believe, so what do you care... Or you do believe so it's what you wanted anyway) UNTIL it happened to me. And about fell off my chair in surprise with how gutted I felt. Absolutely gutted.

I actually put the work down for some time (over a year) whilst I sorted my feelings out on the matter. My feelings might not make sense, but hey, that's what feelings are for.

Now... As I go through... I'm EXCEPTIONALLY careful. There's a feeling of "ownership" that often happens with FHW, and when I start feeling "Mine. Mine. Mine." (Finding memo reference)... I back away. Because these people AREN'T mine. They have children, parents, people who knew and loved them. More than I. And that's just temporally.

Now... ONE of these people (work completed) was my LIVING son. Um. Problem. He'd been in critical condition for about 6 months, but he pulled through. The "mine" on there I ran with (I hit the roof). Another was my grandfather... Sealed to his EX-wife... Who had murdered their first child. Meanwhile his wife of 60+ (and all their LIVING adult children also listed incorrectly, many with work done) years was listed as a cousin.

Both were people obviously treating family history work like Ancestry dot com. Just clicking away. Well meaning idgits not even bothering to show the RESPECT to the spirits they were handling (click click click) that 30 seconds of checking would grant them. Drives me bonkers. Up the wall bonkers.

So I took some time (after putting holds on everyone)... And really thought my way & prayed my way through my feelings.

-> it's easy to get excited: like an Easter egg hunt in "finding" people, tracing lines, etc. So while I learned compassion for others/ respecting the rules... I ALSO learned compassion for well meaning idgits on their Easter egg hunts (morons) (okay, so maybe just grudging tolerance of the inevitable)... But MOST IMPORTANTLY... That while I may be "clicking"... I'm handling spirits. And I need to treat the spirits of others as I want my own loved ones treated: with respect to themselves & respect to those who love them.

And with the respect I would think OHF would want us all treated.

Q

[Robb8547]

Thanks for all the great answers, I have prayed about it and feel better. I can't wait to do temple work

[applepansy]

I'm glad you're feeling better about this Robb.

I noticed that "distant relative" was used a lot in describing. Isn't it possible that whomever did the ordinances was just as close a relative to your great grandfather as you are? Unless, your great grandfather only had one child, who only had one child, who only had one child, etc., then there is likely another great grandchild who might have found the gospel.

I understand being upset. It's hard for family who aren't members to find something has happened they don't agree with and its hard for family members who want to do the work themselves. Its important to remember we are all one family, the family of Heavenly Father.

Edited July 26, 2013 by applepansy

[Robb8547]

Well no they were the only ones who came to America out of all the siblings, the rest all live in Ireland and I highly, highly doubt someone is LDS over there. The temple work was done in Texas also.

[Dravin]

Well no they were the only ones who came to America out of all the siblings, the rest all live in Ireland and I highly, highly doubt someone is LDS over there. The temple work was done in Texas also.

The location of the temple where the ordinance was preformed doesn't necessarily tell you anything about where the person who submitted it lives.