Is there a "reconciliation" or middle ground?

[Dark_Jedi]

A brief background: I experienced a life changing incident several years ago that changed by view of God, the Church and Church doctrine. This incident involved both members and non-members of the Church, but became more complicated due to the actions of members. I have not been to church in over 10 years. I do not believe most prayers are answered (almost none, actually), I do not believe in personal revelation, I believe most local Church leaders are wholly uninspired (related to the above), and the jury is out on General Authorities (but they're likely not inspired, either). Joseph Smith's first prayer may have been answered, and he may or may not have been a prophet - the same can be said for his successors. I am not a fan of the current president. I don't go to church because I can't bear sitting there listening to people talk about things they actually know nothing about - they really "know" very little (although I think they are sincere and probably actually believe and want to "know").

That said, is there room in the Church for people like me? I recognize there is a difference in doctrine and what is taught as doctrine, and I recognize it is acceptable, even somewhat encouraged, to have questions. Were I to return to Church, I would not participate in Sunday School or priesthood meeting (I'd leave after Sacrament Meeting), and I may leave the room during some talks/testimonies. I would very likely not accept a calling, offer prayers or speak in meetings, etc. Is there a middle ground where my views (which I keep to myself unless specifically asked) and the general views of the Church coexist?

I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to give the reader an understanding of my position.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dark_Jedi

[livy111us]

Seth Payne spoke about this very issue at the FAIR conference a few days ago. He had a crisis of faith several years ago and was completely inactive for 18 months. He began to have a desire to return, but because of his new belief system, only attended sacrament meeting before going home. Over time, he felt comfortable attending all of his meetings but still has reservations to this day. He does not bear testimony of things he does not know to be true. His Bishop knows his position and does not ask him to teach on subjects he does not believe and has been working with him quite a bit. Who knows if he'll ever return to the way he was before but the Church accepts him for who he is and I think you will find a similar acceptance in your ward. Nobody is perfect in Gods church. We all have our little hiccups and we are still accepted because the church is a vehicle to help us improve, not a place for the already perfect. I wish you well on your journey. I've been studying this subject recently (doubting member, loss of faith, how/if they return, etc...) and have found that as long as there is hope, there is happiness.

There were 5 different lectures at the FAIR conference that addressed these issues, but they won't be posted til next week. 2013 Fair Conference « FAIR

[livy111us]

It looks like there are some pretty good notes of the conference online.

Day 1-http://www.maxwellinstituteblog.org/a-few-notes-from-the-2013-fair-conference/

Day 2-http://www.maxwellinstituteblog.org/liveblogging-the-fair-conference-part-2/

[Just_A_Guy]

Under the circumstances, Dark_Jedi, what still attracts you to Mormonism and/or leads you to want to participate in Sacrament meetings?

[Dark_Jedi]

Thanks, livy111us. I am aware of the FAIR Conference and Michael Ash's Shaken Faith Syndrome and would have attended the conference were I in the West. I eagerly await the posting of the addresses, thatnk you for the link.

[Dark_Jedi]

Under the circumstances, Dark_Jedi, what still attracts you to Mormonism and/or leads you to want to participate in Sacrament meetings?

Essentially two things. First, I don't necessarily doubt the Gospel itself, which is (or should be) the core doctrine of the Church. Of course, many other churches teach that Gospel as well, and they all have other doctrinal attachments like Mormonism does. And while other churches do not generally have members testifying of a "sure Knowledge" (that they don't actually have) of things like answers to prayer, etc., I do not feel comfortable in them, either, and were I to attend a different church I would also not participate - but participation expectations are far different in other churches.

Second, through this time I have been inactive, my family has been active (with the exception of very brief periods of my now adult daughter).

If you're asking why I have any desire to come back, I don't know. I do know it has nothing to do with any inspiration or prompting of the spirit. God is not working in any mysterious ways. Following what Mormons are taught, it would be presumed that God knows what would bring me back to activity and would through some means bring about the "miracle" or whatever to make that happen. Whether God knows them or not, I know them, and they're not happening.

[Dr T]

Hello DJ,

Whether God knows them or not, I know them, and they're not happening.

that sounds like you have expectations of what God would do for this "miracle" to happen. It is interesting to me that you seem to question if God knows what that would be. I believe God know all.

[Dark_Jedi]

Hello DJ,

that sounds like you have expectations of what God would do for this "miracle" to happen. It is interesting to me that you seem to question if God knows what that would be. I believe God know all.

You illustrate the point very well. You believe God knows all likely based on what you are taught in church. I believe that if what is taught in church is correct, God does know all and likewise would, as a loving Father in Heaven, do what is necessary (and it is quite simple, actually) to bring back his child in response to the pleas of that child and other children. An alternative point of view is that God does know all, but chooses not to act (despite church teachings that he will/would). And yet another alternative is that God does, indeed, not know all and/or care about all things. Of course I could go on and on with alternative points of view.

So from your point of view, and please understand I am not attempting to be argumentative, God does know what it would take. Why, then, from your perspective, does he not do so? (And I must give a caveat to you - you must answer this from an understanding that said child actually is attending church, is temple worthy, holds a calling, etc. - because in the beginning that was the case).

Edited August 4, 2013 by Dark_Jedi

[NeuroTypical]

I do not believe in personal revelation,

All I can really say here, is that I have personally experienced personal revelation a small handful of times in my life.

That said, is there room in the Church for people like me?

I guess there are several levels of answer.

Are you welcome in church? Can you come in and sit down in sacrament meeting? Sure. It's pretty much written in stone on every church building: "Visitors Welcome".

Are you welcome in church as a baptized member? Absolutely. I mean, if you show up to argue your point of view, disrupt lessons, push your beliefs that contradict church teachings on others, then the answer is probably you will be asked to not attend. But if none of those things are true, I don't see a problem with you attending, having home teachers, maybe even having a calling. You certainly wouldn't be the first person who doubted certain tenets of beliefs to have a calling.

Can you go to the temple? Probably not, unless you anser untruthfully on one or more of the temple recomment interview questions. But again, others have certainly lied their way into the temple.

Personally, you'd be welcome to hang out with me and my family. We don't demand strict adherence to beliefs to some church in order to be friends with someone or sit next to them in church.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Roseslipper]

Hi DJ, and happy sunday to you and your family and all on this forum. Alot of people have things that keep them away from church. Ususally its sin, or not understanding or what ever!! Something is pushing u or u wanting to go to Sacrament only I say go 4 it!! and if thats all u do thats ok, when u are ready and u want to stay for any of the sunday school classes then do so. do talk with the bishop when u feel comfortable when u feel its the right time. God does answer prayers,He might not answer all prayers, and that could work out to be a good thing. He also doesnt answer our prayers the way we want them to come out, and its in His time not ours. Know that GOd loves you and He knows you better then any one alse does> When u are ready put some trust in him and faith He could move mountains for you for us if it is really needed. I know that life is harder then I ever thought it would be but its still wonderful but I know that I have been truelly blessed and my biggest blessing is being a member Of THe Church Of Jesus CHrist Of Latter Day Saints. And I want you to know that I havent always been active and theres so much that I dont know and understand but I know God knows me better then any one alse does. thats why no one is suppose to judge. The Gospel if perfect, we the people run it and we are not perfect. Ill say a prayer for brother. And I hope that you will go back even if its just for scarament I hope that you will be touched and feel the spirit witnessing to you. Know that God loves you He loves us all, He's just not always happy with us. His way is truely the best! H e will take u as you are now....GOd BLess you with love your sister in the gospel.

P.S. God does notice you, and blesses you and its usually you or us being touched by another. He uses us to help HIm do His work..

Edited August 4, 2013 by Roseslipper

[Gretchen]

...An alternative point of view is that God does know all, but chooses not to act (despite church teachings that he will/would). And yet another alternative is that God does, indeed, not know all and/or care about all things...

So from your point of view, and please understand I am not attempting to be argumentative, God does know what it would take. Why, then, from your perspective, does he not do so?...

I think I understand how you are feeling. Why does He give the Snooty-Rude family so much while you are struggling to pay rent? Why does He allow such horrendous things like child abuse to go on unnoticed? How could He not intervene with all the gloom and despair going on today? Does He even love us?

I have felt this way before, and to be honest, I still feel this way at times. I have been through darkness that no one should have to go through, and I often lay in bed at night wondering Why.

Dark_Jedi, I can tell you from personal experience that He is aware. The things I have had to endure have helped to shape me into who I am today, and have left me with a burning desire to make a difference, and to help others find their wings.

The road to understanding is not going to be an easy one, and at times you will wonder if it's even worth trying to keep going. Please know that it is. You are not alone. If you need someone to talk to, I'm always willing to lend an ear.

[Dark_Jedi]

Thank you Loudmouth_Mormon, Roseslipper & Gretchen for your responses.

Please be aware, Roseslipper, that I do not mean to offend you or in anyway demean what you have said, but comments like yours are exactly why I don't go to church. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Your experiences are yours and yours alone, as mine are mine and mine alone. Mine have been very different from yours. I'm sure you are sincere in your belief that God loves everyone and knows them better than any human, including oneself, etc., but that's all it is - your beliefs (admittedly shared by many others). I believe differently, and I believe the church errs in teaching such things (although I am not actually sure they can be classified as doctrine, which could be part of another discussion e.g. what things that are taught in church are actually doctrine as opposed to "teachings of men").

So let's get back to the question, and in doing so address some of what Loudmouth said. Please help me clarify in my own thinking: It would be OK in at least some (perhaps most) wards/stakes for someone like me to attend Sacrament Meeting only, devoid of participating in other meetings and activities and not holding a calling and not being assigned home teaching? Even in a small eastern ward (as distinguished from a small Utah ward which is likely larger than a large eastern ward)? Even for many years? Because it has been over 10 years already, and these things are no closer to resolution then than they are now and going to Sacrament probably isn't going to change that positively from the point of view of the Church.

Finally, just a side note to Loudmouth. I do appreciate that I would be welcome to hang out with you and your family, and we do have a couple friendly families in our ward who do likewise. I do have a home teacher, although he rarely comes and has never asked about my feelings (so I haven't told him). My HP group leader has asked and never returned - although he did seem to understand where I was coming from. Likewise, my bishop has never asked, I've met with him only once and frankly think he's a very poor excuse for a bishop (although he is a very nice person) and the epitome of an uninspired leader (as was his predecessor, although he was less of a nice person).

[Backroads]

I know plenty of people who attend sacrament meeting only. It seems to be okay.

However, I have to say I don't appreciate you telling anyone they "don't know what they're talking about." Via your own words, our experiences are all different. If I say "I had such-n-such spiritual/religious experience", who are you to tell me with authority what I witnessed? Your statements and your I am right/you are wrong attitude in this thread have been very demeaning.

[NeuroTypical]

Please help me clarify in my own thinking: It would be OK in at least some (perhaps most) wards/stakes for someone like me to attend Sacrament Meeting only, devoid of participating in other meetings and activities and not holding a calling and not being assigned home teaching?

It seems to me that all you really need to do is set the right expectations. You say you haven't been inside a church in 10 years, but you have home teachers, know some families, have talked with the HPGL and bishop? So they already know you're inactive. If they see you show up to church, they may want to talk to you. If and when they do, try just flat out telling them "I'm planning on coming to sacrament only, and pretty much would like to be left alone and not extended a calling".

If they press for more information, tell them "There's much about the claims of the church I doubt. I'm not interested in talking with anyone about it. I'll let you know if I have any questions. I'd just like to be left alone for now, thanks."

If they continue to press, then they're being rude. Feel free to make a big loud obnoxious stink and yell something. Rude people can use a little public embarrassement.

[livy111us]

You will enjoy Seth Payne's lecture. He gave some great advice in his presentation that many of us in the Church should take. Remember, this is coming from someone who has spent years researching, defending, and promoting the faith who then had a crisis of faith. He has bee on both sides of this situation.

"We must never make a doubter feel stupid, unwelcome, unworthy, or unwanted

because of their doubts or disbelief. Such behavior is anathema to Christian love and is

an attempt at social shaming and coercion. The redemptive value of the Gospel of Jesus

Christ rests on the ability of an individual to choose for him or herself. Therefore, even

if these attempts at shaming and coercion were effective, they would create reluctant

disciples following the rules with an unconverted and defiant heart. Take doubters at

their word. Respect their views as you would have them respect yours."

He continues "Church members and families who react negatively to the doubts and disbelief of

those who once believed, are, in most cases, not acting out of malice. Rather, they are

responding to an extremely shocking and disconcerting event -*‐‑-*‐‑ an event which

challenges them and requires an adjustment of some kind to the pre-*‐‑existing

relationship which had previously been anchored, or at least strongly supported, by a

shared worldview."

He spent some time on accusing the doubter of sinning as being the cause of his doubts. This comes across as being judgmental and pushes the doubter further from the Church. While in *some* cases, this is true, but certainly not all. How do you think it would make someone feel who are struggling within on a daily basis to know whether the Church was true or not, and when they confide in others of this very personal information (many times as a cry for help) they are scolded telling them it is because they are sinning? It probably won't help the situation much. We need to be more understanding and sympathetic towards people with doubts and not be so quick to throw out accusations. We need to be more loving and uplifting in order to bring them back to the fold.

[Anddenex]

That said, is there room in the Church for people like me?

Yes.

Is there a middle ground where my views (which I keep to myself unless specifically asked) and the general views of the Church coexist?

No. Believing the prophet/president doesn't know what he is talking about; believing the General Authorities are uninspired, believing people who have experienced life differently than you are naive (they know very little but are sincere) are not compatible doctrines/beliefs that would be able to coexist together They are opposites and one will always rule out the other.

Are you able to have these beliefs while attending Church? Yes. Are you able to have questions, deep questions which cause a cognitive dissonance and still attend Church? Yes.

[Dr T]

Hi Dark,

Thank you for your replay to my post. I am not taking your post as an attempt to be argumentative as you noted. I am not trying to be argumentative either I just like having these discussions. In your reply to my question I again read into it the basis for your understanding of what God "ought to do," coming from your perspective, is pleasing you and fulfilling your expectations. I am not LDS so you know. I believe God does know all, allows things, we have free agency, and we tend to have a very limited perspective IMO. This all come down to "the problem of evil" but I'm not sure if I'm jumping the gun because I am not sure of the specifics of your question and I have not reread this thread to check. I'm sorry for my laziness but I'm tied up in something at the moment. I have not interacted with you before but you appear to be a thinker and willing to discuss these types of things and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I respect your position more than some, as others positions tend to be thoughtless and adopt their positions because that is what everyone else is doing.

Your participation is voluntary, but your desire to attend and your attendance is validation that you feel that most of what is spoken of at church sits well with you. Regardless of your belief about the authenticity or authority of the structure of the church, its important simply because without that shared belief that so and so is a leader because of such and such authority, the church would not function. Someone can speak of divine authority until they are blue in the face, but it doesn't mean squat, unless I credit them that position. If I didn't accede that they have some kind of authority, I wouldn't bother listening.

It takes some courage to walk into this forum with your perspective and I am pleasantly surprised at the reception.

[Dark_Jedi]

It seems to me that all you really need to do is set the right expectations. You say you haven't been inside a church in 10 years, but you have home teachers, know some families, have talked with the HPGL and bishop? So they already know you're inactive. If they see you show up to church, they may want to talk to you. If and when they do, try just flat out telling them "I'm planning on coming to sacrament only, and pretty much would like to be left alone and not extended a calling".

If they press for more information, tell them "There's much about the claims of the church I doubt. I'm not interested in talking with anyone about it. I'll let you know if I have any questions. I'd just like to be left alone for now, thanks."

If they continue to press, then they're being rude. Feel free to make a big loud obnoxious stink and yell something. Rude people can use a little public embarrassement.

Actually, saying I haven't been inside the church in 10 years is not correct - I have attended a few activities and I do go drop off/pick up the boys from Scouts, etc. Also understand that I have known both the bishop and the HPGL for over 25 years - the amount of time I have lived here. Doing the math you will figure out I was active for about 15 of those years - very active, having served as a counselor in 2 bishoprics, YM president, and Gospel Doctrine teacher.

I'm not actually concerned about the bishop being rude, as I said, he is a nice guy and actually quite timid - which is why I think he has never asked me anything. If he, or anyone else who wasn't just being nosey were to ask, however, I would tell them - that has been the criteria all along, they need to ask, I don't go around trashing the Church or its teachings, and the nosey lady isn't going to find out, either.

I may, however, be tempted to raise a stink to those who might say "Oh we've missed you so much...." Really? You missed me so much that you called, came to visit, or emailed me sometime in the last 10 years - funny, I don't recall anyone doing that. (I did such a thing in the supermarket to that comment one time.)

Anyway, thanks for your comments and support - I'm still only on the verge of giving it a try, I'm not sure I will yet.

[mnn727]

So from your point of view, and please understand I am not attempting to be argumentative, God does know what it would take. Why, then, from your perspective, does he not do so? (And I must give a caveat to you - you must answer this from an understanding that said child actually is attending church, is temple worthy, holds a calling, etc. - because in the beginning that was the case).

Because agency is the (to borrow a Star Trek term) the Prime Directive. If God trumped your agency, then you would be nothing but his little robot doing what he wants you to. That's not how you help an individual become your equal.

Like you, I don't believe God is as involved in peoples lives as much as some like to think He is (I just don't believe the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find their misplaced car keys - and yes I know some people here will argue that point).

I also don't care for it when people say "I know" (and yes we could argue about the definition of 'know') I'm an 'I Believe' kind of person -- I may be wrong and I admit that, but even if I am wrong and we're all fooling ourselves, I have become a much better man by following the teachings of the Church than I ever was before I joined. And yes,99% of the time I go for all 3 hours. I also: say prayers, accept and try to magnify my callings, give talks, teach a lesson occasionally, home teach each month, etc. Why? again, because it continues to keep me being a better man than I was before I joined and because while I admit the possibility of my being wrong, I do believe in the doctrines of the Church.

[Dark_Jedi]

I respect your position more than some, as others positions tend to be thoughtless and adopt their positions because that is what everyone else is doing.

Your participation is voluntary, but your desire to attend and your attendance is validation that you feel that most of what is spoken of at church sits well with you. Regardless of your belief about the authenticity or authority of the structure of the church, its important simply because without that shared belief that so and so is a leader because of such and such authority, the church would not function. Someone can speak of divine authority until they are blue in the face, but it doesn't mean squat, unless I credit them that position. If I didn't accede that they have some kind of authority, I wouldn't bother listening.

It takes some courage to walk into this forum with your perspective and I am pleasantly surprised at the reception.

We all have more courage when we're at least somewhat anonymous! And I wouldn't say most of what is spoken there sits well - that's why I don't go. But your point is well taken about not listening to those who don't have a clue and are essentially parrotting that which they think they are supposed to say, or perhaps for the more sincere, that which they hope or want to be true.

Interesting side note, my son came home yesterday talking about a discussion they had in Gospel Essentials class. Seems two brethren got in a slightly heated discussion regarding Adam's transgression as opposed to it being a sin. The teacher, a long time member and former bishop in another ward, insisted that Adam & Eve sinned and he apparently had no concept of the idea of transgression. Despite the ward mission leader's attempt to actually explain transgression, he insisted on referring to it as sin and argued the point. Sadly clueless.

[Dark_Jedi]

Because agency is the (to borrow a Star Trek term) the Prime Directive. If God trumped your agency, then you would be nothing but his little robot doing what he wants you to. That's not how you help an individual become your equal.

Like you, I don't believe God is as involved in peoples lives as much as some like to think He is (I just don't believe the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find their misplaced car keys - and yes I know some people here will argue that point).

I also don't care for it when people say "I know" (and yes we could argue about the definition of 'know') I'm an 'I Believe' kind of person -- I may be wrong and I admit that, but even if I am wrong and we're all fooling ourselves, I have become a much better man by following the teachings of the Church than I ever was before I joined. And yes,99% of the time I go for all 3 hours. I also: say prayers, accept and try to magnify my callings, give talks, teach a lesson occasionally, home teach each month, etc. Why? again, because it continues to keep me being a better man than I was before I joined and because while I admit the possibility of my being wrong, I do believe in the doctrines of the Church.

I do understand your point, but my agency at this point has nothing to do with it. Yes, I do choose not to attend Church and that is an exercise of my agency. However, I do my part - all that I can - on making that which I need (this is not simply a desire) happen. It was not happening when I did go to church, it's not happening when I don't either. And I honestly cannot say I am a better person for this experience (which began a couple years before these 10 years of inactivity), and I could convincingly argue that the opposite is true, and that includes the time when I was active and fully participating. Part of this, that should be explained, is that which I'm sure some of those at the FAIR conference spoke about - there came a time when I felt truly deceived and betrayed by what i knew to be true, and that feeling is still there and deeply rooted. I am now a believe guy, also, but what I believe is far less than what I used to believe (or "know"). (Differing from most of those at FAIR, however, is that my "shaken faith" has nothing to do with the history of the Church - I know - really know, not spritually know - the Church covers up much of its history and have known that for many, many years.)

[NeuroTypical]

I may, however, be tempted to raise a stink to those who might say "Oh we've missed you so much...." Really? You missed me so much that you called, came to visit, or emailed me sometime in the last 10 years - funny, I don't recall anyone doing that. (I did such a thing in the supermarket to that comment one time.)

I guess I have one last comment. If you are someone who gets offended when others sin, you'll be just as offended in church as you are most anywhere else. We don't stop falling prey to hipocracy, insensitivity, or just plain ignorance, just because we happen to be active.

I guess what I'm saying, is if you will be basing your notions on the truth or correctness of the church, on if you run into some smarmy fake politeness, then I can save you the trip and the hassle.

I was inactive for around 6 years, and had a similar experience to you. One friendly little old Swedish lady prayed for me daily and gave me chocolate, one very awkward conversation from some elder who had obviously been asigned to be my friend, and nobody else paid me a second thought (that I was aware of). Maybe one difference between us, is that I had pretty clearly set the expectation that I wasn't interested in the church and didn't really want to be contacted. I was getting pretty much exactly what I asked for. It sounds like you've been wanting more contact than you've been getting, and that can be a difficult thing when it doesn't come.

[Dark_Jedi]

Hi Dark,

Thank you for your replay to my post. I am not taking your post as an attempt to be argumentative as you noted. I am not trying to be argumentative either I just like having these discussions. In your reply to my question I again read into it the basis for your understanding of what God "ought to do," coming from your perspective, is pleasing you and fulfilling your expectations. I am not LDS so you know. I believe God does know all, allows things, we have free agency, and we tend to have a very limited perspective IMO. This all come down to "the problem of evil" but I'm not sure if I'm jumping the gun because I am not sure of the specifics of your question and I have not reread this thread to check. I'm sorry for my laziness but I'm tied up in something at the moment. I have not interacted with you before but you appear to be a thinker and willing to discuss these types of things and I appreciate that. Thank you.

It's nice to have a non-LDS perspective, thank you. I don't believe what God ought to do is please me and fulfill my expectations, actually. (I'm not contradicting myself here - I do believe he should meet the expectations of what God is supposed to be.) And while I'm not sure that this is actually Mormon doctrine, it is regularly taught and testified of in LDS churches that God loves each of us, that he is intricately involved in our daily lives (even as stated in another post here in things like helping you find your lost car keys), that he hears and answers all prayers (but the answer is sometimes "no" and sometimes "not right now" and sometimes different than what you want), that God has a specific plan for each individual, that he desires our happiness and success and is just waiting for us to ask him for whatever we need or want, and whatever is righteous and properly prayed for we will receive. Likewise, as you state, it is taught that God does allow bad things to happen to good people for whatever purpose he has or simply allowing evil people and/or Satan their agency. And of course, God always allows each individual to choose - but there are consequences to each choice, most of which are not readily apparent.

So the expectations I have is that God is the God that people in the Church say he is. Again, I'm not sure how much is doctrine and how much is teachings of men, but much of this is also spoken of by the General Authorities in general and stake conferences. I specifically waited to answer your post after the one I answered above because there is an explanation there - that feeling of deceit when I discovered God is not what those who "know" so much say God is. As assuredly as they know, I know what God is not, but as pointed out earlier, there is some I don't know - like whether or not he actually does know all things.

I am interested in your "problem of evil" perspective. Please share it, because evil did play a part in my inactivity.

[Dark_Jedi]

I guess I have one last comment. If you are someone who gets offended when others sin, you'll be just as offended in church as you are most anywhere else. We don't stop falling prey to hipocracy, insensitivity, or just plain ignorance, just because we happen to be active.

I guess what I'm saying, is if you will be basing your notions on the truth or correctness of the church, on if you run into some smarmy fake politeness, then I can save you the trip and the hassle.

I was inactive for around 6 years, and had a similar experience to you. One friendly little old Swedish lady prayed for me daily and gave me chocolate, one very awkward conversation from some elder who had obviously been asigned to be my friend, and nobody else paid me a second thought (that I was aware of). Maybe one difference between us, is that I had pretty clearly set the expectation that I wasn't interested in the church and didn't really want to be contacted. I was getting pretty much exactly what I asked for. It sounds like you've been wanting more contact than you've been getting, and that can be a difficult thing when it doesn't come.

I can't say that I am offended by sin, and I don't consider hipocracy a sin. Perhaps I haven't stated my position clearly enough, or perhaps I just shouldn't have gone off on that tangent. Being offended by someone at church was never a criteria for my attendance or not (and I realize that this is different from many other less actives).

You are right though, in that I never asked not to be visited, etc., and I did and do expect more than what I have gotten, most of which was initiated by me. This all ties into my belief of the uninspired nature of local leaders and answer, or lack thereof, to prayers (but is not the basis for either). Really think about that. In 10 years neither of the 2 bishops that have served during that time were inspired to make any contact with me on their own despite the activity of my family. I've had my current home teacher for a year and a half, he has visited 3 times, doesn't otherwise call, email, etc. I actually requested a new home teacher when he was assigned because throughout the years prior to that I had the same guy and I felt he wasn't getting anywhere and really helping in any way and I didn't really relate to him - although he did come most months after calling in the afternoon of the last Sunday. No inspiration, despite my prayers, that there might need to be a change there - I actually had to ask after years of waiting. Do these leaders know or care that the new home teacher doesn't come? Have they never been inspired to follow up? Maybe they have and their human frailty keeps them from doing anything. I can actually forgive that, but I have heard many times the testimony of the HPGL and his personal inspiration and revelation in helping others - he actually once prevented a suicide because he was inspired to go right then to see a man, despite the fact he was going somewhere else important and in the other direction at the time (or so his testimony goes). I believe he was likely inspired then at least, is he no longer inspired or willing to follow that inspiration?

I've said too much, my apologies.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Dark_Jedi