Very disappointed


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Actually disappointed doesn't begin to describe how I feel.

My husband has certain issues that I cannot being to fathom. He grew up in a strong Mormon family. They are loving kind and supportive. He always says he knows exactly what is right.

Early in our marriage, we had a joint account and he emptied the funds - gambling. We had nothing to pay for rent or food. It was a heartbreaking moment in my life as I couldn't understand how anyone could be so selfish. At the time I knew nothing about addiction and gambling.

We overcame that incident and he promised never to gamble again.

Of course, it happened again and again and I came to the point of wanting out of the marriage, unfortunately by then we had children and it wasn't so easy. I spoke to bishop at the time and he suggested counselling and for me to forgive him.

I asked bishop how many times am I supposed to forgive him and how could I jeopardise my children's future for a selfish man. He quoted the scripture about forgiving 70 x 7.

We stayed together. He did counselling, we did counselling together, the counsellor had me at the point where I should actually leave as he has no remorse for what he has done and would continue to do so as he was only seeing her because he had to. Out of stupidity or love I stayed.

I implemented some safety measures to protect the family though - he has no access to the bank accounts for cash being one.

All had been reasonably well for the past few years.

This week, I couldn't understand why the bank balance was so low. He has stolen my access card, gone to the hotel and gambled away thousands of dollars.

I asked to speak to him about something very serious. He wanted to talk in front of the kids, I don't think he realised I had picked up on it so quickly as the statement had not come in yet . I suggested that is not a good idea and he has avoided me ever since - going to work early, coming home late, making sure we are only together when the children are around. That kind of behaviour.

When I saw the money gone I physically threw up. I haven't been able to eat or sleep or I binge eat and sleep all day.

I feel I cannot live with someone I can't trust. My love has been eroded, bit by bit over the years. I find it hard to be happy when I am constantly looking over my shoulder for the axe to fall - for him to destroy us financially again - and now it has fallen.

Even without the gambling, he spends more than he earns. He plays golf and I find new golf clubs, worth thousands of dollars hidden in his car. He goes away each year on golf trips. A night out after work costs hundreds because he eats and drinks (expensive) then can't drive home so catches a taxi (really expensive). He is eating himself into an early grave - we can't go out for a meal as a family as he orders entrée, main and dessert and usually the most expensive dishes on the menu. We can't afford to spend $200 on a meal out.

I have tried talking through this with him and it was a big thing during counselling. Nothing changes.

Not looking for advice really, I know what I need to do for the sake of our financial future. I don't want to, but I can't go on living like this. Financially, we are better off without him.

I really just need to get this out there, I have no one I can talk to about it. I feel that if I talk to Bishop I will get the same response again - to forgive him and keep the marriage together.

To me, that defies all logic when I see us homeless and unable to look after the children.

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The only advice that makes sense to me in such situations, is this: You are role modeling behavior for your children. What you put up with, they'll put up with in their marriages. How you choose to react to the obstacles and poisons of life, is how they'll react. So pick the behavior you want to see coming out of them once they're married, and then go do it.

If that means leaving your addicted destructive husband, then so be it. (And I'm sorry.)

If that means staying together and toughing it out, then so be it. (And I'm sorry.)

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I think you could look at a court-ordered separate maintenance decree, if your state allows it. It leaves a couple legally married--heck, they could even live together, if they want--but your finances are separate, and you'd have grounds to have him held in contempt of court and possibly jailed--maybe even have his wages garnished in your favor--if he pulls that stunt again.

That's kind of an extraordinary measure in practice--most couples just divorce--but if you're dead set on sticking it out, it's something to consider.

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Having an older bother who is a compulsive gambler (lost his house and car and is now living with us) let me tell you, you do what you must to insure the financial future of yourself and your children.

Imagine his addiction as a slavering beast in the corner of the room. As long as you keep your cool and don’t threaten that addiction it stays quiet, although it ever sleeps. Any time it thinks it can get away with something it will, and that's the hard part, because the addiction is always looking for a way to satisfy its urges.

There are twelve step programs for gamblers, but its usually even harder to get them to join one and follow through than it is for alcoholics or drug users.

Its a terrible situation to be in, I really wish you well, please protect yourself and your children.

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Question: Do you work...have a career? If not, then do you think he will be more responsible providing for himself and you and the kids after divorce?

Divorce is probably not going to change anything for the better. As the Father of your children, you will always have some sort of relationship with him and if you remain financially dependent on him it will still be a difficult situation.

How do his parents feel or act regarding the problem? Do they know?

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Loudmouth-Mormon - you have stated how I feel - no win situation, damned if I stay, damned if I go.

bytor2112, we have an unusual financial situation. I have an independent income due to being insured when I was struck down with disability. I earn more than he does as I was in a very highly paid job when I had to stop work. So when I say we (children and I) are better off financially without him, we are, as the expenditure for all 4 of us is much less than his expenditure. We will not miss his income as he spends it all on himself anyway.

As to his family, his gambling/money problem came out when his father was in financial difficulties and the family asked for contributions to help him. We were unable to do so as my husband had gambled/spent away everything we had at the time. So the family saw him with new things, yet we couldn't contribute to a serious family problem.

They have chosen to put their head in the sand about it, and he has chosen to avoid maintaining contact with them. Perhaps so he isn't answerable to them? I don't know.

One of the big issues is that I have been unable to pay tithing as I feel I just don't have it to give due to the situation I am in. So of course I am unable to get a temple recommend.

The other issue is I still have this small niggling thought that he is the head of the household and I shouldn't be dictating to him what to do. I know that thought is unreasonable under the circumstances as he has forfeited his right to that position through his actions, but it is still there. I don't want to be the one telling him what to do. I want him to be doing the right thing, because it is right.

He is not all bad, he has a lot of good traits. But this bad trait has now overridden all of those and I am having trouble seeing the good in him.

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The rules change when addiction enters the picture. He is not following the Lord and therefore is not entitled to having you follow his counsel. He's making decisions that are selfish and detrimental to himself and the family. Along with that go all of the addict behaviors that destroy a marriage: sneaking, lying, etc.

Of course it's easy for me to say from my armchair, but at this point I'd be having a come to Jesus meeting with him, which would probably end with him packing a bag and leaving until he agrees to treatment.

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Thanks for that!

I think I am past that point unfortunately. Last time I consulted a divorce lawyer, and it was only after his intense promises to overcome the addiction and change that I relented.

One of the conditions from that last time was that if he ever did it again, he was out. We even drew up an agreement between us. That was 4 years ago.

I have sent him an email that we will talk tonight, no excuses. I will give him an opportunity to talk/explain. Though I can't imagine anything that he could say that would excuse his behaviour, or any promises he could make that he hasn't already made and broken.

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I... feel at a loss regarding your situation and while I am glad to not be in your shoes and your primary intent perhaps was not to solicit advice but to vent, I hope you will forgive me when I feel to add a few words.

Does not God have all knowledge?

Ultimately your questions comes down to this:

If you endure this hardship with patience, love and long suffering, will the day come where he will repent and be healed? For I testify that the power of the atonement is real and that it does change hearts and lives and can change the heart of your husband so completely that what was once weakness will be strength instead.

If you wait, will such a day come?

By the foreknowledge of God is it already foreseen that he will not repent in this life? Is death certain that to prolong the event would only cause more suffering and hardship for others? Or would divorce bring to pass a chain of events that would lead to his repentance found no other way? For blessed is he who is compelled to be humble; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.

The answer to such questions are what you need in order to move forward wisely.

Now perhaps you already have done so in which case you know what to do but from your writing I feel to perceive otherwise and so recommend that before you either stay or go, to first solicit and obtain counsel via personal revelation from God.

I know that if you ask in faith you will be answered. Yet sometimes we pray and the heavens are silent and feel closed to our pleas. While I hope this doesn't happen to you, remember that it is not he who draws away from us but us from Him. I understand you don't have the faith others do in the law of tithing for otherwise you would be paying it but I invite you to pay your tithing regardless for the promises and blessings of the law of tithing are greater than you know. If you knew them, you would would realize we can't afford to not pay our tithing.

Now perhaps there are other things needing addressed but to me it sounds like the only thing holding you back from a temple recommend and entering the house of the Lord is the law of tithing. No matter which course to go or stay you receive, will you not need the blessings of being able to worship in the temple? I believe in both cases you will and that if an answer is not forthcoming at first, becoming worthy to hold a temple recommend may just prove the key that unlocks the heavens in your behalf.

D&c 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Now some of what I have written above and below may be construed as a plug against divorce. I'll admit I don't like divorce but I don't like open heart surgery either. Yet there are times when both are necessary and this may be one of those times in which case staying is not wise. Yet I'll be first to say that I don't know if this is one of them and if I'm right you don't yet know either. That being said, I know God knows.

If someone you loved was sick in the hospital would you ever pull life support while hope of recovery remained? If someone you loved was sick in the hospital and death was certain, why would you prolong their and your suffering instead? Though he is sick, he is not dead and neither is your marriage. At least... not yet. If the case is terminal then pull the plug but to pull the plug while the outcome is uncertain and hope of life yet remains?

Neither course would be easy and who is to say which choice will cause less pain and suffering to unfold upon you and your children? I do not know nor do I know if his death is certain but I know that the Lord knows and will make it known unto you if you worthily ask in faith. That being said, I invite you to repent regarding the law of tithing, and what ever else may be needful, and do what is necessary to be worthy to enter a Temple of God so that if no answer comes sooner you might there ask in faith for the wisdom you so dearly need.

James 1:5-6

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.

Alma 37:37 meshed with Proverbs 3:5

Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I am sorry to hear of your suffering sister and hope that perhaps some word I have written will prove to be of use unto you in your searching. So I hope and pray. May God guide you and keep you in the way of truth and grant you the strength to do the right thing which ever the right thing is.

Sincerely,

Brother M.

P.S. You may have read my first version and as you can see below, some individuals were offended. If I offended you I apologize for such was not my intent. I rewrote this some in hopes that my second draft is better than first. If not, please forgive for I'm trying.

Edited by Martain
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The answer to such questions are what you need in order to move forward wisely. Before you take further steps, would it not be wise to solicit and first obtain counsel via personal revelation from God? And if such is not forthcoming, might it not require faith which via your tithing is currently shown as lacking?

If you presume to know the interior state of someone's soul, you know neither God nor his Son, who has commanded us not to make such judgments. The kind woman who started this thread only has the best interest of her children in mind, and first and foremost, that is her tithe to The Lord. The fact that she can't pay the tithe asked of her by her church is not her fault, but her husband's. You're blaming the victim here, and accusing the hero of being the villain.

Take a step back, draw a deep breath, and consider that Scripture cannot be blindly applied in the same way to every problem. Pray, relax, and check yourself before you wreck yourself.

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Let me join with our Catholic visitor friend here in response to Martain's post.

Before you take further steps, would it not be wise to solicit and first obtain counsel via personal revelation from God? And if such is not forthcoming, might it not require faith which via your tithing is currently shown as lacking?

Care to explain to us just exactly how you know that TalkativeIntrovert has not sought God's direction in this matter? Exactly how do you come to the knowledge that her faith is subpar?

I mean, you're quoting good relevant scriptures that are worthy of consideration. But it seems more like you're beating her over the head with them and yelling "stop doing it wrong" - and I don't think that's warranted, or helpful.

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Care to explain to us just exactly how you know that TalkativeIntrovert has not sought God's direction in this matter?

Since when has, "You should pray about it before you make a decision." been anything but good solid advice on this board? I can understand taking umbrage at the faith comment and objection to how this particular bit of advice was delivered* but it is good advice. It would be wise to counsel with the Lord before making a decision.

*It kinda boils down to the tone the reader imparts to the sentence. I can see the exact same sentence delivered in a way that brooks no objection and I can see it delivered in a smarmy and condescending manner. The sentence that follows kinda poisons it retroactively.

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Please understand that I am not advocating for or against her getting a divorce but instead advocating for her to find out the will of the Lord and obey it which ever it is. If she has already gained such an answer then that is wonderful and I encourage her to obey. My statement was that if she has not, and if in asking no answer is forthcoming, such may be due to her lack of faith regarding the law of tithing.

I do not condemn her for this but I instead invite her to test the promise, trust God and pay a full tithe for should she follow through with a divorce such blessings will be even more needed then they are now. Likewise by not paying she is breaking her covenants with God, shutting yourself out from the Temple and subjecting herself to a curse for her disobedience.

3 Nephi 24:8-10

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Do we believe the Book of Mormon accurately portrays the Saviors words when he said this? Do we trust God to keep his word? Do we have faith? If we do we will pay tithing and where tithing is not paid, faith is lacking not only in the law of tithing but in the Book of Mormon itself which we know to be the cornerstone of our religion. Add to this is a note that she does not have faith in her Bishop or that he will offer her inspired counsel and you can see how I arrived at my conclusion.

If any of you were in her shoes, do you yourself have faith that by paying tithing the Lord would so open the windows of heaven and pour out blessings upon you that you would do better upon 9/10ths of your income than 10/10ths regardless of what your spouse was doing? I believe her answer would be no because otherwise she would be paying tithing. This then is what I meant by a lack of faith.

In Alma 60 Moroni sends an epistle censoring Pahoran quite firmly and accuses him of things he is innocent of. Here you accuse me of accusing her for things that she is innocent of and perhaps you are right. Yet if such is the case I hope she would respond like Pahoran who wrote saying in Alma 61:9, "And now, in your epistle you have censured me, but it mattereth not; I am not angry ...".

Matt. JST 7:1–3 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Likewise I say unto you, you have censured me, but it mattereth not; I am not angry for I see it as simply an expression of your concern for this sister we mutually desire only the best for.

Sincerely,

Brother M

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Since when has, "You should pray about it before you make a decision." been anything but good solid advice on this board? I can understand taking umbrage at the faith comment and objection to how this particular bit of advice was delivered* but it is good advice. It would be wise to counsel with the Lord before making a decision.

*It kinda boils down to the tone the reader imparts to the sentence. I can see the exact same sentence delivered in a way that brooks no objection and I can see it delivered in a smarmy and condescending manner. The sentence that follows kinda poisons it retroactively.

Sometimes it's hard to portray the right tone and voice in your words =S.

I can see how it could be seen that way and I wish I could write better because I neither mean nor intend to be smarmy or condescending. Based on your responses though I have taken the effort to try and rewrite my original post to make it a little better than it was before and hopefully remove and perceived condescending tone of which if spoken none would be heard. I hope my second attempt is better than my first.

Edited by Martain
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I remember my Institute director (who is also a bishop, but in a single's ward), said that the Church will not tell someone they should get/consider a divorce. A bishop is not supposed to do that (according to my Institute director and teacher) as official "counsel". Does that mean that divorce is never the correct "answer"? No, but don't expect the recommendation to come from the bishop.

That's not to say there may not be exceptions, but what you said the bishop said doesn't surprise me.

I am not married, but I agree with what has been said about how you are teaching your children how a spouse is supposed to act. It is also true that he is doing harm to the family. The fact that you have tried to move forward and put it past you in the past and this is still happening I think is certainly a sign you should seriously consider a divorce. (Especially now that he has in essence stolen from you and your family - accessed and spent money he was not allowed to have.)

Good luck...

Oh and PS - you can forgive someone, but also do what you need to do to keep them from continuing hurting you and your family. Forgiving is different than staying married. You can forgive and get divorced. You can stay married and not forgive. They are two separate things.

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Everyone has addictions, whether constructive in nature or reaching a new level of a downward spiral. It saddens me when I see people scream for divorce as an easy fix. Naturally, there are limited circumstances where this is an obvious choice and given the stress of your husbands gambling problem, leading to financial ruin, I can understand how divorce would be considered a choice.

However, I still believe those who have overcome an addiction are far stronger people than those who are screaming, rid yourself of him because he is addicted to an activity that is a warped way of compensating for emotional distress. I am not defending him, as I have no doubt I do not understand the circumstances the way you do, but it upsets me that so many who believe in eternal marriage here are quick to suggest divorce as the first option. A covenant is not a contract, but a promise that regardless of what the other person does, I will hold true to the dictates of the covenant.

There is far more going on here than simply the fact that your husband is a gambling addict and you know that because you have stood by him for years. Any addiction is just a symptom of emotional distress, or unresolved issues, but yes, facing the addiction and owning your husband owning up to the fact that he is powerless over his addiction is a start to recovery.

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I agree with MRMARKLIN. Addiction is grounds for divorce. Your covenant is with God, as is his. He is not keeping his covenant, thus depriving you and your family of blessings. He is the priesthood holder of the household, he has obligations to you and to his family. Unless he is going to live up to those obligations you have no reason to hang around and wait. There comes a time when you need to pull up the stakes and move on. I do not know if you have reached that point, that is something only you can decide. No one can dictate to another when that time has arrived. If you have made ultimatiums in the past then I suggest you follow through, otherwise they are worthless.

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Ah, now I understand some of the logic tree. Although, I am still baffled as why some would gauge another person's worthiness or covenant status more important than their own. Spouses are supposed to be team players, not dismissive onlookers. If you hold the covenant with God, how is the other persons actions influence your covenant? lol... Yes, I understand the family perspective and anything done by a family member does impact the family. Yes, before I get fire breathed on me, I do agree that there are circumstances, that almost everyone will say applied in their case to merit a divorce.

I see the perspective on the whole....."blessings" thing, despite me choking on the word blessings, but its as if people see the situation as some kind of reward action, in that they marry for the sake of some kind of reward, but that reward is based on the other persons actions and if the other person disappoints then they believe the other person broke their covenants, so it justifies them in breaking from their covenants. Warped.

This about your relationship though, so I would suggest that you both see a marriage counsellor together.

Edited by Praetorian_Brow
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I might be coming at this from a different angle!

I am a child of divorce - one of the main reason that my mother divorced my father was because he drank all the money - leaving her with nothing to feed and cloth my sister and I.

Yes growing up was hard, as in the UK the state mandated (and therefore paid by the government because he wouldn't was stupidly low - less than £20 a week for 2 children) and my mother was disabled so unable to work. But we always had clean cloths, suitable footwear and there was always dinner on the table.

After we moved to Scotland my sister was friends with a girl who grew up in the home of an alcoholic single mother and I could see even then that my mother had made the right decision.

For all the statistics that go on about the negative impact of divorce on children especially with regards to education - I want to reassure that these don't have to be the case. In the UK when I was a child compulsory education finished at 16yrs old. My sister and I both did 2 years post 16 ed - I did 2 more years at high school and then went on to do 2 different college courses, an honors degree, work abroad 6 summers and take numerous night classes. My sister did 1 extra year at high school and then one year at college,

Be strong, do what you know is right for you and your family and don't worry about what other might think about you - regardless of what they know of the situation it isn't their business and they have no place to judge.

Remember that there are occasions when divorce does not always mess up childrens lives - in some cases it can improve their lives!

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I see the perspective on the whole....."blessings" thing, despite me choking on the word blessings, but its as if people see the situation as some kind of reward action, in that they marry for the sake of some kind of reward, but that reward is based on the other persons actions and if the other person disappoints then they believe the other person broke their covenants, so it justifies them in breaking from their covenants. Warped.

I can't speak for all Mormons, of course. But I don't see any theological reason for leaving in this kind of scenario. The rationale would be pure, common-sense self-defense.

For me, Just_A_Girl's NOT gambling away months of my/our hard-earned cash in a single evening, on an ongoing basis, over a period of years, thus forcing our kids to unnecessarily do without and forcing me to work well past my planned retirement age, is not a "blessing". It's kind of an expectation.

Like the constitution, marriage--even celestial marriage--is not a suicide pact.

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