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Purgatory is the place where the righteous who have yet to attain perfection go. Although it is officially part of Heaven, one could view it as being on the outskirts or borderlands between Heaven and Earth. Because of its proximity to our own world, redemptive suffering can still occur in that place.

The inhabitants of Purgatory are fulfilling the Scripture, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). They have already made a definitive choice for Jesus Christ during earthly life, are now sealed for life everlasting, and enjoy the fulness and happiness of the beatific vision with the rest of the Saints. They have the blessed knowledge of the truth about all things. Indeed, it is the very experience of Heaven which compels them to remain at the borderlands and strive for a higher degree of holiness.

Therefore, Purgatory would be more similar to the Mormon concept of the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdom, but with the Holy Trinity fully present along with a means to ultimately work one's way up to the highest degree of glory that is possible for a given individual. It would not be at all similar to spirit prison, which is a place where those who have rejected the Gospel or have not heard of it go. One makes their choice for or against God, according to whatever lights they are given, in this life only.

You all are way over my head. However, I would like to be sure to clarify that Purgatory is not a destination for the soul, like I believe the lower kingdoms (?) are in LDS theology. It sounds to me like George is saying that the soul enjoys the Beatific Vision while in Purgatory, but I didn't think that way the case. It is my understanding that the soul knows it will and it has the benefits of seeing all things as God sees them, and is happy to suffer/be purged of whatever imperfections remain. Once the soul has been "purged" of it's attachment to sin, that soul then joins in the fullness of the Beatific Vision.

But I'm no theologian.

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Purgatory is the place where the righteous who have yet to attain perfection go. Although it is officially part of Heaven, one could view it as being on the outskirts or borderlands between Heaven and Earth. Because of its proximity to our own world, redemptive suffering can still occur in that place.

The inhabitants of Purgatory are fulfilling the Scripture, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). They have already made a definitive choice for Jesus Christ during earthly life, are now sealed for life everlasting, and enjoy the fulness and happiness of the beatific vision with the rest of the Saints. They have the blessed knowledge of the truth about all things. Indeed, it is the very experience of Heaven which compels them to remain at the borderlands and strive for a higher degree of holiness.

Therefore, Purgatory would be more similar to the Mormon concept of the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdom, but with the Holy Trinity fully present along with a means to ultimately work one's way up to the highest degree of glory that is possible for a given individual. It would not be at all similar to spirit prison, which is a place where those who have rejected the Gospel or have not heard of it go. One makes their choice for or against God, according to whatever lights they are given, in this life only.

No, purgatory is not Terrestrial nor Telestial Kingdom. Purgatory is the Spirit World.

In LDS theology, all of us who die enter the Spirit World. This is the place the souls are in before we all get resurrected and undergo final judgement.

The Spirit World has two states - Spirit Paradise and Spirit Prison. Those who have a testimony and follow Jesus are in a state of paradise. Those who do not are in a state of prison. The Spirit World is a continuation of our learning. Those who have not heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ or those who have heard but have not gained a testimony to enter into the baptismal covenants may do so here. Baptism is a mortal ordinance though, therefore, those in the Spirit World desiring to enter into baptism receive the ordinance vicariously through those living. The righteous souls in paradise minister to those in prison to help them learn and gain a testimony and go through repentance and/or baptism. This is akin to the ministering saints helping souls in purgatory as well as the works of the living helping the souls in purgatory to be losed from sin in Catholic theology.

After final judgement, all the souls gain resurrected bodies, leave the Spirit World, and enter into the Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial Kingdoms. Those in the Spirit World who gain full knowledge of Jesus Christ and decide to reject Him go to Outer Darkness. These are eternal states. One cannot progress out of one kingdom to enter another. One can only progress to a higher state within that Kingdom.

In Roman Catholic teaching there are only 2 eternal states - Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is not an eternal state, therefore it is akin to the Spirit World.

Here's another important difference. Catholics do not believe in pre-mortal existence. Therefore, they believe that people only decide to follow Christ in mortality. In LDS theology, all of us existed before gaining mortal bodies (the LDS take on Jeremiah 1:4-6 among others) and we chose to follow Jesus Christ, hence we received mortal bodies (yes, Hitler included). Those who chose to follow Lucifer did not gain mortal bodies. Therefore, because of our definitive choice to follow Christ into mortality, everyone who gained mortal bodies are worthy of redemption and resurrection and eternal life through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice regardless of how they live their lives on earth. How they live their lives on earth determines the degree of glory that they inherit in the process of eternal progression.

Edited by anatess
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What is the basis in Scripture and Tradition for the doctrine of Purgatory?

The same basis in scripture of the Spirit World... like 1Peter 3:18-20, for example. The term purgatory is derived from a verse in Maccabbees (deuterocanonical, hence not in LDS scripture) that describe the state of the souls after death that are losed from sin. That is, they undergo a process of purgation. So, if there's a time after death that sins may be purged, then it logically follows that there's a place that this happens in (not heaven because no unclean soul may enter there and not hell because no purgation happens there). So, it must follow that there is a place of purgatory... And hence the name.

Edited by anatess
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I want to thank Curious George for this thread. I love being able to do non-contentious comparative studies like these because it tends to highlight how very close we are to the doctrines of the Catholic Church and how grateful we need to be for the work that the Catholics have done in preserving the truths of the gospel through all the years... Even through the darkest of ages...

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No, purgatory is not Terrestrial nor Telestial Kingdom. Purgatory is the Spirit World.

In LDS theology, all of us who die enter the Spirit World. This is the place the souls are in before we all get resurrected and undergo final judgement.

The Spirit World has two states - Spirit Paradise and Spirit Prison. Those who have a testimony and follow Jesus are in a state of paradise. Those who do not are in a state of prison. The Spirit World is a continuation of our learning. Those who have not heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ or those who have heard but have not gained a testimony to enter into the baptismal covenants may do so here. Baptism is a mortal ordinance though, therefore, those in the Spirit World desiring to enter into baptism receive the ordinance vicariously through those living. The righteous souls in paradise minister to those in prison to help them learn and gain a testimony and go through repentance and/or baptism. This is akin to the ministering saints helping souls in purgatory as well as the works of the living helping the souls in purgatory to be losed from sin in Catholic theology.

After final judgement, all the souls gain resurrected bodies, leave the Spirit World, and enter into the Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial Kingdoms. Those in the Spirit World who gain full knowledge of Jesus Christ and decide to reject Him go to Outer Darkness. These are eternal states. One cannot progress out of one kingdom to enter another. One can only progress to a higher state within that Kingdom.

In Roman Catholic teaching there are only 2 eternal states - Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is not an eternal state, therefore it is akin to the Spirit World.

Just for some further clarification:

I think that Catholic Purgatory would be more analogous to LDS Spirit Paradise, and not the Spirit World in general. For Catholics, Purgatory is a place or state of purification for those deceased that have already been judged by God to enter His eternal presence in Heaven. All in Purgatory will be in His presence, none will go to Hell. It is more of a way station for those that are already eternally saved to be completely purified and prepared for God's presence for eternity. Therefore, I think it's more similar to Spirit Paradise, and not the Spirit World in general.

Here's another important difference. Catholics do not believe in pre-mortal existence. Therefore, they believe that people only decide to follow Christ in mortality. In LDS theology, all of us existed before gaining mortal bodies (the LDS take on Jeremiah 1:4-6 among others) and we chose to follow Jesus Christ, hence we received mortal bodies (yes, Hitler included). Those who chose to follow Lucifer did not gain mortal bodies. Therefore, because of our definitive choice to follow Christ into mortality, everyone who gained mortal bodies are worthy of redemption and resurrection and eternal life through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice regardless of how they live their lives on earth. How they live their lives on earth determines the degree of glory that they inherit in the process of eternal progression.

That is true. Catholics do believe though that all the dead will be resurrected, not just those going to Heaven, but also those going to Hell, prior to the Final Judgement.

(Oh and I tend to see "eternal life" in the LDS context as referring to exaltation, and not the general salvation that all receive, i.e. bodily resurrection. Those in the lower Kingdoms (Terrestrial and Telestial) do not receive eternal life, and don't live in God's eternal presence. Reminds me of the talk "Salvation and Exaltation" by Elder Nelson.)

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The same basis in scripture of the Spirit World... like 1Peter 3:18-20, for example. The term purgatory is derived from a verse in Maccabbees (deuterocanonical, hence not in LDS scripture) that describe the state of the souls after death that are losed from sin. That is, they undergo a process of purgation. So, if there's a time after death that sins may be purged, then it logically follows that there's a place that this happens in (not heaven because no unclean soul may enter there and not hell because no purgation happens there). So, it must follow that there is a place of purgatory... And hence the name.

Which verse in Maccabees is that? I know Maccabees talks about prayer for the dead, but I wasn't sure if it talked about Purgatory explicitly.

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