This doesn't feel right


Recommended Posts

I don't question the gospel but I do wonder about certain aspects of how the Church is managed by its members, after all, people are imperfect and make mistakes.

My husband ran into an old acquaintance a couple days ago. This man worked for a company that was contracted to do the electrical work and install light fixtures in a temple that was built awhile ago. He told my husband that one light fixture alone cost about $100K. Jaw drop.

I'm curious about where we (members) draw the line between humility and pride. I understand The Lord deserves our best and the best, but even when Christ was born, he lay in a manger and his chosen parents: a carpenter and a young girl. My feelings seem to be that The Lord would opt out of the flashy and extravagant. So why is this done in His name? Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a hard time believing any light fixture could cost that amount of money--probably the closest you'd realistically get would be the massive chandelier that typically dominates the Celestial room in any given temple.

Now, that said, temples are luxurious. They are that way by design and, if we are to believe the scriptures that describe the construction of the temples of Solomon and the temple at Kirtland, they are that way by command--even when built at a time when "the poor" are in FAR worse shape than they are today. (Construction of the Kirtland temple was commanded when there were fewer than 500 Mormons living in that town--many of them in tents.). I don't know all the reasons that the Lord requires that--but apparently, in some cases, He does. I mean, look at the gifts of the Magi in the story you cite--they were eye-poppingly extravagant, but we have no record that they were rejected. Ditto for the woman who anointed Jesus' feet with costly oils, over Judas Iscariot's express objection on more or less the same grounds you cite.

The Church leadership is trying to strike a balance between building Zion (in which the poor, if any, are properly cared for) while acknowledging that the Lord Himself warned that the poor will be "always with us" and that--therefore--this aspect of building Zion can justifiably be counterbalanced to some degree by the Church's other obligations. Given what I know of the way the Church manages its finances in other fields, its general reputation (even among non-Mormon construction contractors, here and abroad) for trying to stretch every dollar and demand accountability for expenditures, and my firsthand experience working in the Church welfare system; I'm generally satisfied with what I know of the leadership's efforts to strike a balance at present.

It will always be possible to second-guess someone's commitment to the poor (how many starving children in Ethiopia could have had their lives prolonged another day by the $375-value of the iPad I used to type this post?); and as institutions and budgets get bigger the opportunities for second-guessing--and the magnitude of those perceived errors--will increase similarly.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have any of you priced light fixtures lately?? I have. Searching for new lights for my kitchen. Got sidelined by the absolutely fantastic ornate fixtures that are available for the rest of the house.

One chandelier that would go in my living room was over $1,000.00. Comparing just that one, and it was rather simple in design - to the GINORMOUS chandelier's in each and every temple, not hard to see that those would cost $100K.

I have only seen the chandelier's in the Celestial room in the Seattle, Portland and Mesa temples. HUGE- beyond huge!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If" true, then he is probably referring to a chandelier because they can be VERY expensive. Here is an ugly one that is on sale for $51,000 Axo Light Subzero 50 Light Chandelier | Wayfair

A quick Google search turned up many chandeliers in religious places that are well over 1 million dollars, and yes, they are ugly as well. I think that if we got a gorgeous one for our Temples for only 100k then we are doing pretty good.

Like Jenamarie said, the Lord required His house to be built with only the best of material in ancient days. So we must ask ourselves, how would this translate today? What are the best materials around the world today? He did not say to get mediocre material, but the best. Some argue that we could have bought decent material and used the money to give to the poor or something of the like. When this is brought up, I am reminded of the story of Christ when Judas tempted him with the same accusation. John records:

John 12:3-7 "Then Mary took three quarters of a pound of perfumed oil made of pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus. She then wiped his feet dry with her hair. (Now the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfumed oil.) 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was going to betray him) said, “Why wasn’t this perfumed oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?” 6 (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box he used to take what was put into it.) 7 So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. She has kept it for the day of my burial. 8 For you always have the poor with you, but you don’t always have me”

From my notes:

In addition to the Jerusalem Temple being made of the finest materials around that part world, Josephus states that the treasury in the Temple held “10,000 talents” of gold. This would equal out to approximately $2,250,000,000 in todays dollars.

The exegesis notes that the given value of the ointment, according to Mark, is 300 denarii, or a full year's wages for a normal man.

"The vase and its contents were worth more than a man's wages for a whole year. The gift could have canceled someone's pitiable poverty. There is the problem! But there is an answer. The poor are more than mouths to be fed. The poor have needs which money cannot meet . . . The censure of the apostles was an oblique insult to the poor. God has made harvest fields beautiful as well as bountiful . . . Why has God sprinkled fields with flowers and the sky with stars? The utilitarian cannot explain our world, and he cannot meet the deepest hunger of man's heart . . . The poor hunger for more than bread. The woman's deed was not only beautiful --- it was symbolic . . . We need symbols: they vivify the mercy of God and unite mankind, for though men may quarrel about the phrasing of a creed, they cannot quarrel over the bond of a symbol. The woman's deed was not only symbolic, it was sacramental . . . There is no rule of thumb [as to the proper balance between practical utilitarianism and symbolic beauty], for the good reason that every thumb has a different thumbprint . . . a man does not discuss art in a where children are starving, but neither will he be long content that children should live in ugly houses on ugly streets . . . Talents also point the road: Beethoven must not forsake his music, except in direst emergencies, to run a soup kitchen" (Interpreter's Bible 7:569-570).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Approximately 13 million listed members.

My guess would be about 7 million who are actually active with about 3 million with a steady income.

100k is a drop in the lake, considering 10% is required by each member, plus other business dealings.

Seems a bit odd to be so extravagant with some things that are only utilized by a small percentage of the actual membership. Sometimes I chuckle when I see advertisement campaigns for charitable donations and wonder how much was spent on advertising, as opposed to actual donations.

Of course, my estimations will be disputed, but the rationale still stands.

You are not alone with these thoughts.

Edited by Praetorian_Brow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having worked for a company who has worked on church structures before, I can assure you that there is slim profit margins at least on the actual structure (concrete, steel) of the buildings. I don't think the inside finish is outrageously expensive for what the end product is which is very nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm grateful for the beautiful fixtures and furnishings of the temple. Coming from a humble background, (my mother was a widow with seven children), the temple is one of the few places where I can go, and feel like this is "my" temple, and thus, enjoy the beauties there. I feel no envy for the beautiful detail within the temple which my humble home lacks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Approximately 13 million listed members.

My guess would be about 7 million who are actually active with about 3 million with a steady income.

100k is a drop in the lake, considering 10% is required by each member, plus other business dealings.

Seems a bit odd to be so extravagant with some things that are only utilized by a small percentage of the actual membership. Sometimes I chuckle when I see advertisement campaigns for charitable donations and wonder how much was spent on advertising, as opposed to actual donations.

Of course, my estimations will be disputed, but the rationale still stands.

You are not alone with these thoughts.

More like 15 million listed members. I would actually say 7-8 million active, another 1-3 million who consider themselves Mormon. But you're probably right about the 3 million with a steady income. And not to mention some millionaire members (such as Mitt Romney, Marriott, etc).

Personally, I am fine with how the church uses its money. It does what it thinks is right. I'm not going to question their choices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since non-members do not see these (except during open houses), my guess is that the ornate fixtures are meant to help the faithful get a sense--a whiff--of the heavenly kingdoms. During my tour of the temple in Langley BC, I never observed anything that was flashy or gaudy. There was a beauty and majesty, but it was amazingly simple (not plain) to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My thoughts:

1. I worry more about a society that charges so much for high-quality light fixtures.

2. The temples are where the work of exaltation is carried out for the living and the dead. I think exaltation is worth it, don't you?

3. Flashy and extravagant are two adjectives I would never use when describing temples. I agree with what PC says regarding that.

4. In a way, I can understand what you're saying. I've wondered myself about some members of the church who are willing to shell out thousands of dollars for recreational toys that rarely get used, lavish vacations, unnecessary plastic surgery, costly apparel, etc., etc. The difference, of course, being that temples are built for God and not to satisfy the pride of man.

That's them, for whatever they are worth to you. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Approximately 13 million listed members.

My guess would be about 7 million who are actually active with about 3 million with a steady income.

100k is a drop in the lake, considering 10% is required by each member, plus other business dealings.

Seems a bit odd to be so extravagant with some things that are only utilized by a small percentage of the actual membership. Sometimes I chuckle when I see advertisement campaigns for charitable donations and wonder how much was spent on advertising, as opposed to actual donations.

Of course, my estimations will be disputed, but the rationale still stands.

You are not alone with these thoughts.

Your point is taken.

You did say that someone would likely dispute your numbers. Here I am. The actual activity rate is somewhere around 40% (much less in some places - like Chile, more in others - like Utah). So that's closer to 5 million. Only about 20% are tithe payers. So, about 2.5 million or so pay tithing to support the Church's efforts, but again, your point is taken.

One other side point: it was only recently that the Church actually paid in full for each temple using tithing. Up through the early 90s, members contributed a significant portion for a new temple if one was to be built in their area. I personally contributed to two fo them, but not enough to pay for a light fixture apparently. Maybe a bulb?

Edited by Dark_Jedi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given the fact that the Salt Lake Temple took 40 years to build, and that the early Saints were determined to complete the Nauvoo Temple even knowing they would abandon it tells me that the sacrifices of temple building are great. How much did it cost the church to send architects to Europe to learn how to build great structures?

Luckily we are stable enough and technology advanced enough that we can pay tithes and not have to actually build them ourselves. It wasn't that long ago that the church didn't have the funds to just build a temple, and the members in the district would have to raise some of the money directly. Sometimes I wish we were less prosperous so we would know true sacrifice when it comes to building temples.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't question the gospel but I do wonder about certain aspects of how the Church is managed by its members, after all, people are imperfect and make mistakes.

My husband ran into an old acquaintance a couple days ago. This man worked for a company that was contracted to do the electrical work and install light fixtures in a temple that was built awhile ago. He told my husband that one light fixture alone cost about $100K. Jaw drop.

I'm curious about where we (members) draw the line between humility and pride. I understand The Lord deserves our best and the best, but even when Christ was born, he lay in a manger and his chosen parents: a carpenter and a young girl. My feelings seem to be that The Lord would opt out of the flashy and extravagant. So why is this done in His name? Thoughts?

Temples are God's throne(s) on earth.. or at least as close as one can come to it anyways. It is well for us to get it as close as possible that we can so that it will always be worthy of His Glory and His Presence.

some years back I learned an interesting lesson; if God wants something built or done, he'll bless those who are responsible and are faithful in their commandments so that it can be done. Price is not an issue; if need be he can bless tithe payers so that they can pay more tithes.

Edited by Blackmarch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share