Frustrated with church

[HawaiianShirts]

I had a mission companion who always had a notebook and pen at the ready during Sacrament meeting or during any talk or lesson in church. He didn't always write anything (in fact, he sometimes fell asleep and scrawled a wavy line across the page as his hand slipped), but he was always ready. If the speaker or teacher has done anything at all to invite the Spirit, and if we try to listen for that, then I think we can often get something good from even the least eloquent speakers.

Though I have to admit that, if I am ever called as a youth leader, I have often thought that it might not be a bad idea to spend at least a small amount of time with the youth on public speaking. Maybe just one five-minute tip a month or something. It's a skill everyone should have, and I don't see it taught much anymore.

...The Lord has twice told me the same thing--honor the covenants YOU make.

This! I go to church to work out my own salvation before the Lord. Sometimes that means trying to help others; sometimes that means receiving help. The point is that I am there to listen to the Spirit and find out what I need to know to become a better person.

Makes me think of something that came into my head once during college. "God doesn't grade on the curve." Doesn't matter if I'm sinning less or being more faithful than the person next to me; their life lessons and tests have been entirely different from mine.

[applepansy]

In regards to dealing with other people: I hear other people's words about being there for others, and they've caused me to do some serious re-thinking about a lot of social interactions. A special thanks to Martain.

About my own growth and Misshalfway's comment: it's not "nerds" that bother me but... when every activity feels like sitting in Junior primary again. I've already been here, listened many times before. I question the value of sitting in a class where I can recite the lesson word-for-word before the teacher even stands up. That is when I feel empty and spiritually stunted. I want more- to learn deeper. Honestly, Misshalfway, I don't know if I spiritually benefit from being present in such settings.

There is a reason the lessons are repeated... over and over and over and over. Its obvious in after being in primary very long. Every year the kids get the same lessons, just worded a bit differently for their age group. Why? When they get to YM/YW's its the same lessons again but for their age group. Why? Gospel Doctrine, Gospel Principles, etc.

How about the scriptures? Do they change to suit our needs or rather what we think our needs are? Of course not.

I just had a conversation last month with a neighbor. We are both part of an FHE group of empty nesters (well almost empty nesters ). She asked how I picked a lesson when it was my group. Then she said we've all learned everything. I feel like I'm just repeating... again and again and again. I've felt that way too. But what I've learned is that as human beings we forget. We need to hear it again and again and again. Even when we remember we forget in our actions.

I have felt uninspired at church and I've seen others doing things like grading papers (college professor), reading scriptures or even something else, and someone knitting. So... I'm not alone. I think we all feel that way. Kids even get bored in church.

I determined that what I needed to change was my attitude. Why do I go to church? To partake of the sacrament is number one for me. I also came to realize that if I'm not feeling the Spirit its because my attitude stinks. When I change my attitude towards those around me then its really easy to recognize the Spirit who is always with us, even in Sacrament meeting during a boring talk.

I think the key to feeling the Spirit is to look for it wherever we are and especially in church.

[Dravin]

I have felt uninspired at church and I've seen others doing things like grading papers (college professor), reading scriptures or even something else, and someone knitting.

It should be noted that for some knitting serves as an outlet for fidgeting and restlessness and, if sufficiently skilled, does not require conscious attention and actually improves focus. The case can be the same for some other activities, probably not grading papers though, so even if someone's hands are busy it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't paying attention. You can run into a similar situation with someone who has their eyes closed, they could be trying to doze or they may be trying to shut out distractions. Obviously not all activities serve to help focus but looks can be a deceiving with some of them.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Dravin

[Misshalfway]

There is a reason the lessons are repeated... over and over and over and over. Its obvious in after being in primary very long. Every year the kids get the same lessons, just worded a bit differently for their age group. Why? When they get to YM/YW's its the same lessons again but for their age group. Why? Gospel Doctrine, Gospel Principles, etc.

How about the scriptures? Do they change to suit our needs or rather what we think our needs are? Of course not.

I just had a conversation last month with a neighbor. We are both part of an FHE group of empty nesters (well almost empty nesters ). She asked how I picked a lesson when it was my group. Then she said we've all learned everything. I feel like I'm just repeating... again and again and again. I've felt that way too. But what I've learned is that as human beings we forget. We need to hear it again and again and again. Even when we remember we forget in our actions.

I have felt uninspired at church and I've seen others doing things like grading papers (college professor), reading scriptures or even something else, and someone knitting. So... I'm not alone. I think we all feel that way. Kids even get bored in church.

I determined that what I needed to change was my attitude. Why do I go to church? To partake of the sacrament is number one for me. I also came to realize that if I'm not feeling the Spirit its because my attitude stinks. When I change my attitude towards those around me then its really easy to recognize the Spirit who is always with us, even in Sacrament meeting during a boring talk.

I think the key to feeling the Spirit is to look for it wherever we are and especially in church.

I just wanted to add a thought to this line of thinking. Sometimes I feel the tedium of the repetition too. I've decided that it's not the repetition necessarily that's boring me. Well, maybe it is. I guess I feel that I've grown out of certain things. And if we are progressing then something like that is sure to happen. I don't know exactly how the church solves that. The messages must stay geared towards the general population. So I guess that means we have to go to the personal resources like temple, prayer, and individual tutorials.

On the other hand, conference is very repetitive yet I never find myself bored. I always, even when I've felt a little pissy about the church, felt spiritually nourished. I think it is because they speak with the spirit. Frankly, I don't know if teachers/speakers ARE preparing with the spirit. In lessons, I often feel that they are gimmicky. Like they lean on the cool poem or the display on the table or on the tear jerker story. We need more spirit. I think that is the answer.

[Dravin]

On the other hand, conference is very repetitive yet I never find myself bored. I always, even when I've felt a little pissy about the church, felt spiritually nourished. I think it is because they speak with the spirit. Frankly, I don't know if teachers/speakers ARE preparing with the spirit. In lessons, I often feel that they are gimmicky. Like they lean on the cool poem or the display on the table or on the tear jerker story. We need more spirit. I think that is the answer.

I think you can get a kind of feedback loop. Where in order to maintain attention people tend to make use of flashy or gimmicky teaching techniques in order to keep people from complaining about their boring teaching which in turn leads to a less engaged class, which leads to more flashy or gimmicky teaching techniques. The ideal lesson is one facilitated by someone who has prepare with the guidance of the spirit and filled with spiritual and introspective discussion and interaction within the class. I think it's a chicken and the egg situation though, did spiritually disengaged lessons lead to a spiritually disengaged class or did a spiritually disengaged class lead to spiritually disengaged lessons?

[applepansy]

It should be noted that for some knitting serves as an outlet for fidgeting and restlessness and, if sufficiently skilled, does not require conscious attention and actually improves focus. The case can be the same for some other activities, probably not grading papers though, so even if someone's hands are busy it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't paying attention. You can run into a similar situation with someone who has their eyes closed, they could be trying to doze or they may be trying to shut out distractions. Obviously not all activities serve to help focus but looks can be a deceiving with some of them.

Can I raise my hand? I'm one of those people who NEED to be doing something with my hands. My knitting/crocheting/quilting calms my nerves and helps me stop focusing on the pain in my body so that I can HEAR those around me.

However, I don't knit at church ... although I did seriously consider it after seeing my neighbor knitting socks. :)

The reason I don't knit is because I'm doing something else. And that something else has given me the same results as knitting. I consciously listen.... or try to. My mind wanders at times and my body screams at me. If someone watched me sitting anywhere they would think I'm a restless 8 year old because of all the squirming when in reality sitting still causes more pain. Since I started trying to consciously listen I've found longer periods of time when I am not distracted by my body or something else. The best benefit is that I often feel the Spirit faster and deeper.

[applepansy]

I just wanted to add a thought to this line of thinking. Sometimes I feel the tedium of the repetition too. I've decided that it's not the repetition necessarily that's boring me. Well, maybe it is. I guess I feel that I've grown out of certain things. And if we are progressing then something like that is sure to happen. I don't know exactly how the church solves that. The messages must stay geared towards the general population. So I guess that means we have to go to the personal resources like temple, prayer, and individual tutorials.

On the other hand, conference is very repetitive yet I never find myself bored. I always, even when I've felt a little pissy about the church, felt spiritually nourished. I think it is because they speak with the spirit. Frankly, I don't know if teachers/speakers ARE preparing with the spirit. In lessons, I often feel that they are gimmicky. Like they lean on the cool poem or the display on the table or on the tear jerker story. We need more spirit. I think that is the answer.

So if church is boring and Conference isn't what's the difference? The messages are the same. The speakers are different. We often think the speakers at Conference are "inspired" but we don't often think that of speakers at Sacrament meeting. Why?

I've learned that by consciously listening even the youth speakers have something inspired to say.

[Guest]

Didn't read the whole thread, sorry. Just wanted to share my thoughts in response to the OP.

This is a community church. That is, everyone shares their talents (or lack of) to enrich everyone's lives and their own. The sermons then are issued by community members all of which are in varying degrees of testimonies as well as public speaking talent. The sermons are not issued by Theologians who have college degrees in Public Speaking.

Now, where I think the OP's frustration stems from is from this misunderstanding. We don't sit in sacrament so we can hear a sermon. Why I say this: I come from a Catholic background. In the Catholic Church, only about 1/4 of the Mass (synonymous to Sacrament Meeting) is the sermon. And it is delivered by a Theologian with a Master's Degree in delivering sermons. The rest is different forms of worship sometimes with professional choir leading the rousing music. Now, I joined the LDS Church and the "sermon" is more than half the meeting. And they call anybody of different ages and different backgrounds to give it.

So, I pondered why this is. If we're going to have a 40 minute sermon, why is it given by "14 year olds and lumberjacks"? And there's not even a choir! I figured it out... we're not there to get a sermon. We are there to share in this community of believers. It is completely not a "I'm here to receive". It is more of a "I'm here to give". It flows outward. And it completely fits in the pattern of Christ-like love. The speakers are there to share their thoughts and testimonies in whatever capacity and whatever degree they are capable. The listeners are there to share their support to the community, to serve the speaker by giving the speaker a place to bear his testimony. The lessons we get from the talks are all due to our willingness to apply little nuggets of the talk into our own lives. There is no room for self-aggrandizement - feeling proud of one's excellent speaking skills and knowledge of scriptures. Everyone is not expected to be excellent speakers or master theologians. And that's including the bishop. The Spirit then flows within that community through everyone's exercise of love and compassion - the Giving part, not the Receiving part.

And that's why I started to really enjoy Sacrament Meeting even with a beginner pianist who can barely pluck out the melody on the piano and a chorister who can't keep time and a speaker who has cerebral palsy... because I get to share in everyone's challenges as a community and feel that love for all these people.

So, to the OP. It doesn't matter if you're transient. Friendship is not bound by time. It is bound by the Spirit through compassion and love. When you feel that - when you feel fully immersed in this community of believers, I believe you'll feel the Spirit.

Hope this helps.

Edited September 25, 2013 by anatess

[Guest Doctrine]

My buddy and I were talking about different types of leaders in the church and how they go about there calling, my buddy lives in a different ward, he went to his bishop because he felt lonely at church and that many people did not like him, the bishop said your name means different things to many people, because there are a lot of members in the ward that are easily offended. My buddy and my self were blown back by this statement. He now feels that there are a lot of people who do not like him.

But he said that no matter what he will still do what is right.

[NightSG]

Can I raise my hand? I'm one of those people who NEED to be doing something with my hands. My knitting/crocheting/quilting calms my nerves and helps me stop focusing on the pain in my body so that I can HEAR those around me.

My mom knits while listening to financial reports. Apparently after a few decades of knitting and being an accountant, it helps her to sort through the details without getting bogged down in them so she's still seeing the big picture.

It must work; she catches others' mistakes all the time, and makes very few of her own. (In the accounting, she makes plenty in the knitting. Sometimes I think she spends as much time unraveling as knitting.)

[Guest]

My mom knits while listening to financial reports. Apparently after a few decades of knitting and being an accountant, it helps her to sort through the details without getting bogged down in them so she's still seeing the big picture.

It must work; she catches others' mistakes all the time, and makes very few of her own. (In the accounting, she makes plenty in the knitting. Sometimes I think she spends as much time unraveling as knitting.)

I need to teach my son to knit! He's one of those that can't sit still. His teachers are at their wits end because he can get disruptive in class. Gets 100 in most of his exams even while running around as the lesson is taught... Same thing in Primary class. Sacrament meeting, he ends up snoozing.

[Lakumi]

I can't sit still at church either and my mind will trail off too so my prayers are a rambling slew of words.

I normally have something to hold and fiddle with, rocks mostly, but don't bring them out to church.

I guess I am just unused to sitting still like that

[ChronoTrigger]

I love church and always come away feeling like it's the best time I've spent my week.

[jerome1232]

I can't sit still at church either and my mind will trail off too so my prayers are a rambling slew of words.

I normally have something to hold and fiddle with, rocks mostly, but don't bring them out to church.

I guess I am just unused to sitting still like that

I read my scriptures or the hymn book while listening, well I used to... now I ensure my 4 year old is entertained and not causing chaos.

Anyways it helped with restlessness.

Sometimes there are truly captivating talks though, last fast Sunday was an amazing, edifying experience. Doubly so because I don't get to attend very often.

[Lakumi]

I read my scriptures or the hymn book while listening, well I used to... now I ensure my 4 year old is entertained and not causing chaos.

Anyways it helped with restlessness.

Sometimes there are truly captivating talks though, last fast Sunday was an amazing, edifying experience. Doubly so because I don't get to attend very often.

well while the talks are good I rarely relate to others (there was one about someone's experiences with bullying I really identified with, but seems my luck I get the stories about things I have no concept about- like marriage or parent hood... but I think that's more because I, along with the missionaries, seem to be the only 20 somethings there, otherwise everyone else is at least 10 years older or younger)

seemingly I often get there late so I sit in the very back so people don't notice me shaking from the cold (or my hands shaking or my OCD blinking...stuff like that)

I get nervous if I can't escape, I always feel I need a quick exit if I get some sort of panic attack or something. It hasn't happened but its good to know the plan is there.

[applepansy]

I need to teach my son to knit! He's one of those that can't sit still. His teachers are at their wits end because he can get disruptive in class. Gets 100 in most of his exams even while running around as the lesson is taught... Same thing in Primary class. Sacrament meeting, he ends up snoozing.

Handwork such as knitting or crocheting seems to help the mind calm down and think in an orderly manner. :)

My dad taught himself to crochet. My mom's knitting has helped her rehab from strokes.

[Traveler]

Having spent most of my life and career traveling through many continents and almost all states I have been most impressed with the members. Seldom while attending church in Asia was I able to understand even a single work in the talks yet I find the members so sincere, interesting and rewarding to befriend. Whenever I travel I look forward to meeting members and talking with them concerning their spiritual journey.

But when I have not found members - I then enjoy talking to locals that are devout to their religion. I find Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist much more interesting than most Christians (Eastern Orthodox and Persian (Nestorian) Christians a exception). I hate to say this because of our forum friend (Prisonchaplin) but Evangelicals are usually the most difficult to deal with because they seem to be more focused on what they think is wrong with LDS than what is right with them and what they offer to the world.

The Traveler

[Smudge]

I have read all these comments with a great deal of interest.

For a very long time I struggled with coming to church - in someways I still do - I get used to get very frustrated - and partly with myself for getting frustrated with others - for example one of our former Sunday school teachers was far from a natural teacher (to the point that if you didn't answer a question with the exact words in the lesson manual then you were wrong) - but I knew from sitting beside him some weeks when he wasn't teaching that it wasn't that he wasn't prepared because even when he wasn't teaching he would sit in class with his study note book on his lap with pages and pages of notes he had made for the lesson - and knew that if he put that much effort into preparing to attend the class he had to be putting in at least that much effort if not more into preparing to teach. And some speakers would just bore me stupid. I also found that being single my opinions weren't valued. It became harder and harder for me actually attend church.

I am not sure exactly when or what changed but I think it might have been moving away to university. But I started to attend church for me - and that changed my experience. In addition I started studying my scriptures during the passing of Sacrament to keep my mind focused (otherwise it would wonder) - and doing so really improved my experience of the sacrament talks. Yes I still get frustrated when an RS teacher spends the whole lesson focusing on the life of the prophet rather than the doctrine found in the rest of the chapter or when one specific speaker over runs by 15-20 mins - but I find that they don't impact as much or take away from my church experience.

[bytebear]

Handwork such as knitting or crocheting seems to help the mind calm down and think in an orderly manner. :)

My dad taught himself to crochet. My mom's knitting has helped her rehab from strokes.

Get him Legos.