We speak of Christ, we preach of Christ, we... Visiting Teach of Christ :D


Jenamarie
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And here I thought our church never spoke or talked of Christ. At least that's what has been said on the forums.

This may have validated that point of view. Why make a publicly stated emphasis of such a change if someone in authority didn't think it might be a problem?

That said, I think it's a great idea.

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And here I thought our church never spoke or talked of Christ. At least that's what has been said on the forums.

They're probably reading the forums and taking the advice of all the people who are so much smarter than they are.

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I do agree that all the visiting teaching lessons ABOUT visiting teaching weren't my favorite. That doesn't mean I don't have confidence that they had their reasons for doing it that way.

Edited by Eowyn
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I was thrilled to read about the focus for next year on Christ. It has been very hard to teach these lessons about visiting teaching to the inactive sisters I visit this year.

They focus the visiting teaching lessons on various aspects and we've taught about Christ many times in the past. Nothing new! :)

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It may not have been so much of an acknowledgement of a problem as a general statement of "We could do better at this."

I agree. A change in how a program operates, or how it teaches, doesn't necessarily mean it was *wrong* before. Perhaps the previous program wasn't achieving the goals they had set, or it was working, but they think this might work *better*. Or they just felt prompted to try something new.

I think it's wonderful that the Church is willing to let it's programs evolve and change as the face of the church changes. We're an international church with new converts coming in all the time who have their own unique backgrounds and needs and insights. We'd be missing out on a lot of wonderful opportunities for growth if we stayed stuck in our ways. :)

(and please note I'm talking about *programs* here, not Doctrine ;) )

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I think it's wonderful that the Church is willing to let it's programs evolve and change as the face of the church changes. We're an international church with new converts coming in all the time who have their own unique backgrounds and needs and insights. We'd be missing out on a lot of wonderful opportunities for growth if we stayed stuck in our ways. :)

(and please note I'm talking about *programs* here, not Doctrine ;) )

Well, sure. Eternal gospel principles never change but our own implementation of those principles can always (and perhaps should always) be improved for the better. :)

You also just reminded me of one of my favorite Joseph Smith quotes:

One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth. Let it come from where it may.

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One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth. Let it come from where it may.

Easy fix. Don't use the ensign. Follow the spirit and it will give you the best message for each family. That is where truth comes from. Than I don't have to read the same message 5 times.

No implementation would ever have to change :). People would just have to gain the faith required to do this. Which not all do so unfortunately.

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Like anything, it's best to implement the program as we're asked to do instead of making it a routine to make it up as we go along. Even if we don't understand why things are done as they are or agree with them, counseling the Lord (or His servants) in the attitude of "my way is better/more inspired" is never a good thing.

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Good evening ElectofGod. I hope you've been well! :)

Easy fix. Don't use the ensign. Follow the spirit and it will give you the best message for each family. That is where truth comes from. Than I don't have to read the same message 5 times.

No implementation would ever have to change :). People would just have to gain the faith required to do this. Which not all do so unfortunately.

Or, use the Ensign and trust the Spirit. I believe God will bless us for humbly following the counsel of our leaders, even when it comes to going along with the various programs. In my life I have been able to trust in the Spirit while I implemented the programs provided by the Church or my local leadership. Even using the same Ensign lesson, each experience with a family I teach has been different because I have tried to rely on the Spirit. There have been cases where I've began with the Ensign article, but the Spirit took the conversation another way, which is just fine and as it should be. This way I can do the program and be blessed for obedience and also trust in the Spirit so that the right words are said to the right people.

Regards,

Finrock

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Who knew following the spirit would get such reactions.

Good evening ElectofGod. I hope you've been well! :)

Or, use the Ensign and trust the Spirit. I believe God will bless us for humbly following the counsel of our leaders, even when it comes to going along with the various programs. In my life I have been able to trust in the Spirit while I implemented the programs provided by the Church or my local leadership. Even using the same Ensign lesson, each experience with a family I teach has been different because I have tried to rely on the Spirit. There have been cases where I've began with the Ensign article, but the Spirit took the conversation another way, which is just fine and as it should be. This way I can do the program and be blessed for obedience and also trust in the Spirit so that the right words are said to the right people.

Regards,

Finrock

Of course. The spirit will use whatever we have and make it work for the situation if we are willing to follow it and don't restrict it.

Eowyn,

And I said nothing about making it up. The spirit won't work with those who don't take time to study it out before hand. If you are going to do that stick with the ensign.

Nor have I counseled the servants. I stated a truth. Following the spirit is the best way...

If you are saying the leaders want us to use other methods over the spirit than perhaps there is a bigger issue here. If using the spirit is not the best way than well.... I wonder what is.

I use the ensign to read and learn. I don't have to teach from it. Its helpful for many people. Its a great resource.

Edited by ElectofGod
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We are given messages monthly that the leaders of the church, who we sustain, ask us to take into the homes of all the Saints. I acknowledge that there are times when we might feel inspired to share something else, but what I am saying is that there is a danger in taking the prideful stance that we can come up with a better message than what we're asked to deliver. That we are more inspired by the Spirit than the prophets, seers, and revalators and those who are set apart with the mantle to lead the auxiliaries of the Church. Are you or are you not saying that your way is better than theirs?

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We are given messages monthly that the leaders of the church, who we sustain, ask us to take into the homes of all the Saints. I acknowledge that there are times when we might feel inspired to share something else, but what I am saying is that there is a danger in taking the prideful stance that we can come up with a better message than what we're asked to deliver. That we are more inspired by the Spirit than the prophets, seers, and revalators and those who are set apart with the mantle to lead the auxiliaries of the Church. Are you or are you not saying that your way is better than theirs?

Ah yes got to throw in that "who we sustain" as if I don't give a lesson from the ensign I don't sustain them.

I could flip this around you know? Do you think they know more than God does and the spirit? But I will just answer, they do not know my families. It has nothing to do with knowing more than them. Do I teach from it? Of course but usually not.

Besides they will either read the message themself or teach it to their own families. So I think they will be covered with getting the message. Unless their Less active but than my approach is entirely different. I may actually LEAVE them a copy of the ensign :D

Edited by ElectofGod
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Who knew following the spirit would get such reactions.

It isn't following the spirit that is getting a reaction. Its the false dichotomy. Your post implies that the situation is one where only one of two options exist: Choose between (1) Follow the spirit or (2) Follow the Ensign. I'm saying you can do both.

And I said nothing about making it up. The spirit won't work with those who don't take time to study it out before hand. If you are going to do that stick with the ensign.

Again, your post here implies that if one uses the Ensign they haven't taken the time to study things out in their minds. This notion is false. One can use the Ensign and still study things out in their minds.

An interesting account from the Book of Mormon that I think is pertinent:

18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.

21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their springs, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto complaining against the Lord their God.

23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food?(Emphasis Added)

Why did Nephi (a prophet, seer, revelator) go to his father, who had been murmuring against the Lord, to know whither to go to obtain food? Why didn't he just trust the Spirit?

Regards,

Finrock

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This is a circular argument. Which means the answer is in the middle. The answer is what does the spirit want you to do.

First the conclusion...

A ) You teach from the ensign and only change it if the spirit directs

B ) You teach by the spirit and teach from the ensign if the spirit tells you to

Why did Jared go to the brother of Jared to petition the lord during the tower of babel (book of ether)? He asks the brother to cry unto the lord to not confound the languages when he could have himself.

Than your example of the bow being broken

.

Later when he needs to make tools to build the ship he asks the Lord himself instead of going to his father.

Than also in 1 kings 13 we have a prophet of the lord who is told by the Lord himself not to eat in the city. He begins to leave the city and another prophet comes and tells him to eat with him. The other prophet tells him he is a prophet sent by God and it is ok. So the first prophet eats and the Lord comdemns him and he is killed because God himself told him not to. The second prophet was sent for a test by the Lord and he failed it.

So why go through a intermediary person?

Simple answer, The lord wanted him to. But than other times the Lord tells you something specific to do.

Brigham was known to get his Brother-in-law, Heber C. Kimball to pray, Brigham seemed to think Heber was more likely to get answers; for whatever reason. More faith?

Does the Lord ever ask us to ask others for answers he is perfectly capable giving us himself? Yes.

My answer, to be edified together. But again its not always the case, thus the circular argument...

So how do we know? I would assume the spirit would impress upon us to ask another instead of the Lord. Likewise the other way around. Balance is key. So as you said we can use both. I even said I did occasionally. I just go about it the other way.

Dependence can be just a much a problem as pride can.

Edited by ElectofGod
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Good morning ElectofGod. I hope are having a good weekend! :)

This is a circular argument. Which means the answer is in the middle. The answer is what does the spirit want you to do.

First the conclusion...

A ) You teach from the ensign and only change it if the spirit directs

B ) You teach by the spirit and teach from the ensign if the spirit tells you to

Why did Jared go to the brother of Jared to petition the lord during the tower of babel (book of ether)? He asks the brother to cry unto the lord to not confound the languages when he could have himself.

Than your example of the bow being broken

.

Later when he needs to make tools to build the ship he asks the Lord himself instead of going to his father.

Than also in 1 kings 13 we have a prophet of the lord who is told by the Lord himself not to eat in the city. He begins to leave the city and another prophet comes and tells him to eat with him. The other prophet tells him he is a prophet sent by God and it is ok. So the first prophet eats and the Lord comdemns him and he is killed because God himself told him not to. The second prophet was sent for a test by the Lord and he failed it.

So why go through a intermediary person?

Simple answer, The lord wanted him to. But than other times the Lord tells you something specific to do.

Brigham was known to get his Brother-in-law, Heber C. Kimball to pray, Brigham seemed to think Heber was more likely to get answers; for whatever reason. More faith?

Does the Lord ever ask us to ask others for answers he is perfectly capable giving us himself? Yes.

My answer, to be edified together. But again its not always the case, thus the circular argument...

So how do we know? I would assume the spirit would impress upon us to ask another instead of the Lord. Likewise the other way around. Balance is key. So as you said we can use both. I even said I did occasionally. I just go about it the other way.

Dependence can be just a much a problem as pride can.

To be clear I have no issue with the doctrine of trusting in the Spirit.

In the temple we are exhorted to give strict heed to counsel of the apostles. Why would we be given this charge unless God expects us to adhere to it?

I don't dispute any specific part of your reply, but it does make the account in 1 Nephi and other such accounts seem spurious. Meaning, your response doesn't satisfy because it leaves unanswered the question: "Why did God want us to know that Nephi went to his father for guidance, even though his father was murmuring and even though Nephi was a prophet, seer, and revelator?" I don't think this account in the Book of Mormon is simply an "accidental" bit of information so that we can conclude that somedays God wants us to use intermediators and other days He doesn't. With such a conclusion, how do I liken that account to my life?

Do you not think that Lehi being the patriach of the family had anything to do with Nephi's decision to go to Lehi for guidance?

Clearly God has given us leaders. There are heads in the Church. Do you see how what you are saying has the potential of allowing a person to essentially come up with their own doctrine and have no accountability? It makes the President of the Church essentially ineffective. It makes all heads of the Church at every level ineffective and spurious. For example, suppose you are given direct instructions from your bishop to use the Ensign for HT because he feels inspired to give that counsel. Are you saying that you would deliberately and conscienciously defy your bishop on account of you receiving your own revelation? Do you not see that by doing so you have elevated yourself above the head and seek to usurp authority, even if you are doing so with the best of intentions? It seems to me that Nephi provided the correct attitude we should display towards our leaders. We should respect their position as heads and trust in their guidance and give strict heed to their counsels, even when they are living imperfect lives. Nephi showed deference to his head on earth. God blesses us for obeying our leaders, even when we disagree and feel that another way is better. The Spirit tells me to follow the apostles. When I follow the apostles, I am following the Spirit. You try to draw a distinction between following the apostles and following the Spirit. When God speaks we obey, whether He speaks by His own mouth or by the mouth of His servants, it is the same.

God makes us use intermediaries to keep us grounded and humble. He established heads in the Church to maintain order and to provide a clear channel of doctrine. We should be doing everything we can to obey our leaders and the exceptions to those ought to be rare. The most significant issue that I have with your claim is that essentially your post is saying that following an apostle's counsel is not following God or the Spirit. Your position, which seems to incorrectly pit following the apostles versus following the Spirit, is a false dichotomy. Your position assumes that the apostle's knowledge or direction is not inspired. The reality is that when God speaks through His apostles it is the same as God speaking through His spirit.

EDIT: Although I agree with you that being dependent on man is as bad as pride (because they are really the same thing too), I want to add that Nephi's example also showed that honoring your priesthood leaders does not mean you are "dependent". Btw, I am assuming by "dependent" you mean that one doesn't seek for personal revelation but relies on the revelation of others solely. This is another issue that I have with your position because it implies that those who seek to obey the guidance of the apostles are spiritually inferior and "dependent". It may be true in some cases, but not in all cases.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited by Finrock
Spelling and clarification.
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I haven't read this thread for a few days. I see it has changed into a slightly different discussion. I think this is an important discussion.

When the new Handbook II was being distributed to the Stakes there was a World Wide Leadership Training on the book. The concluding remarks were from Elder Packer. Here is part of his message.

Many years ago, President J. Reuben Clark Jr., speaking for the First Presidency, made an inspired statement warning that too much regimentation in the Church would have the effect of nullifying revelation: “The work of the Church, in all fields, is standing in grave danger of being regimented down to the minutest detail. The result of that will be that not only will all initiative be crushed out but that all opportunity for the working of the spirit will be eliminated. The Church has not been built on that principle” (“Memorandum of Suggestions,” Mar. 29, 1940, 4).

And now, this simple scripture: “But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit” (D&C 46:2).

...

Once again: “Notwithstanding those things which are written”—meaning, regardless of what is in print, including the handbooks—“it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit” (D&C 46:2). (Concluding Remarks)

At that time I thought, we must know what is written and we should follow it. But once we know what is written the spirit may at times guide us to do something different. My fear is that we rely too much on programs and written manuals instead of relying on faith and the workings of the spirit. This is not simply an "either" "or" statement. We must rely on the spirit or we "shall not teach". Moreover, without the spirit we are weak. No manual, or book, including the scriptures, can compensate for the workings of the spirit in our lives. Elder Carmack indicates why, "More to the point, we tap into the Lord's power source, and our actions move in rhythm with His. The Lord compensates for our deficiencies. Vast, unseen reservoirs of dynamic power supply our needs." (GC April 1993) If we follow books we do not tap into the "vast, unseen reservors of dynamic power" we need in order to conduct the work of the Lord. Instead we are left to ourselves.

Let me give an example of how this works. A woman in our ward once made multiple loaves of bread to deliver to people she knew. She passed them out to various ward members and other friends. After she had handed them out to all these people there was one left. She considered who to give it to and a thought entered her mind that she should give this last loaf to a neighbor acrross the street who was not a member. She went over and knocked on the door. No one was home so she left it on the door step. It didn't have a note saying it was from her. A few days past until she saw her neighbor. The neighbor told her that her Dad had passed away a few days ago. The neighbor had been praying to know if her father existed somewhere. As she got up from one of these prayers she saw the bread on the front porch. She said her father loved to make bread. She knew it was from him and thanked the Lord for such a sign. The Lord magnifies our efforts when we follow the spirit. A simple loaf of bread becomes a sign from God of his love for his children and the eternal bond between a Father and a Daughter. Without some room to breath none of this would have happened. Perhaps some will laugh and think it was all coincidence but such are the workings of the spirit.

Yes, know the visiting teaching message. Yes, follow it. But first follow the the spirit.

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Good morning ElectofGod. I hope are having a good weekend! :)

To be clear I have no issue with the doctrine of trusting in the Spirit.

In the temple we are exhorted to give strict heed to counsel of the apostles. Why would we be given this charge unless God expects us to adhere to it?

I don't dispute any specific part of your reply, but it does make the account in 1 Nephi and other such accounts seem spurious. Meaning, your response doesn't satisfy because it leaves unanswered the question: "Why did God want us to know that Nephi went to his father for guidance, even though his father was murmuring and even though Nephi was a prophet, seer, and revelator?" I don't think this account in the Book of Mormon is simply an "accidental" bit of information so that we can conclude that somedays God wants us to use intermediators and other days He doesn't. With such a conclusion, how do I liken that account to my life?

Do you not think that Lehi being the patriach of the family had anything to do with Nephi's decision to go to Lehi for guidance?

Clearly God has given us leaders. There are heads in the Church. Do you see how what you are saying has the potential of allowing a person to essentially come up with their own doctrine and have no accountability? It makes the President of the Church essentially ineffective. It makes all heads of the Church at every level ineffective and spurious. For example, suppose you are given direct instructions from your bishop to use the Ensign for HT because he feels inspired to give that counsel. Are you saying that you would deliberately and conscienciously defy your bishop on account of you receiving your own revelation? Do you not see that by doing so you have elevated yourself above the head and seek to usurp authority, even if you are doing so with the best of intentions? It seems to me that Nephi provided the correct attitude we should display towards our leaders. We should respect their position as heads and trust in their guidance and give strict heed to their counsels, even when they are living imperfect lives. Nephi showed deference to his head on earth. God blesses us for obeying our leaders, even when we disagree and feel that another way is better. The Spirit tells me to follow the apostles. When I follow the apostles, I am following the Spirit. You try to draw a distinction between following the apostles and following the Spirit. When God speaks we obey, whether He speaks by His own mouth or by the mouth of His servants, it is the same.

God makes us use intermediaries to keep us grounded and humble. He established heads in the Church to maintain order and to provide a clear channel of doctrine. We should be doing everything we can to obey our leaders and the exceptions to those ought to be rare. The most significant issue that I have with your claim is that essentially your post is saying that following an apostle's counsel is not following God or the Spirit. Your position, which seems to incorrectly pit following the apostles versus following the Spirit, is a false dichotomy. Your position assumes that the apostle's knowledge or direction is not inspired. The reality is that when God speaks through His apostles it is the same as God speaking through His spirit.

EDIT: Although I agree with you that being dependent on man is as bad as pride (because they are really the same thing too), I want to add that Nephi's example also showed that honoring your priesthood leaders does not mean you are "dependent". Btw, I am assuming by "dependent" you mean that one doesn't seek for personal revelation but relies on the revelation of others solely. This is another issue that I have with your position because it implies that those who seek to obey the guidance of the apostles are spiritually inferior and "dependent". It may be true in some cases, but not in all cases.

Regards,

Finrock

Yes, that defintion of depedent. I think james123 spoke my mind again. There is one restriction the lord gives when he says listen to his servants in D&C. That is as they walk in righteousness before me, but also as they are speaking by the power of the holy ghost. If it is by the holy ghost than it is His words, if not it is Mans words...

So when you say,

For example, suppose you are given direct instructions from your bishop to use the Ensign for HT because he feels inspired to give that counsel. Are you saying that you would deliberately and conscienciously defy your bishop on account of you receiving your own revelation?

Well lets say this was the Lords will. I would not deliberately defy it? No. I would take the council seriously. I would pray on that message and ask heavenly father if this message was for me. If this is what I should do. If I got a confirmation this was true for myself, I would obey it. If I got a confirmation that it was not form the holy ghost OR it was meant for the ward but that I should continue doing whatever I have already felt prompted to do, than I would.

I know many times council is inspired but the lord wants me to go another route. Sometimes the Lord wants me to obey that council. Sometimes Its not inspired and of man and no matter how "demanding" they are in that council I won't obey.

I agree with your assessment and everything. Someone can always come up with a "perceived" problem with a way of doing things. I can for what others do and they can for what I do. I am so imperfect this may lead me to cast aside something for me doing it this way, but also allows one to as james123 said, to gain that power and avoid being restricted in other areas.

" If we follow books we do not tap into the "vast, unseen reservors of dynamic power" we need in order to conduct the work of the Lord. Instead we are left to ourselves."

This statement was wonderful. My feelings. It takes a lifetime to perfect this ability to find balance between folliwng guidance and following the spirit. Thus it is with the 10 virgins, the wise are they who have learned to listen to the spirit, receive his servants, and all truth...

Again just read james123 thats exactly how I see it. I think the nephi story is a great illustration as sometimes the Lord wants us to be edified together and NOT receive answers directly through teh spirit to teach us and allow us to be edified together. Thats one key to know if you are guided or doing something correctly, were we "all edified together" so here nehpi taught lehi a very important principle. In return, lehi was able to have a major role in teach nephi where to get food and a lesson for the whole family and future generations. The lord will definitely ask us to do things that way too.

Edited by ElectofGod
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