A better way to tithe?

[LittleWyvern]

Anyway, all this is off topic. My original question was "is there a better way to tithe?" Although, on reflection perhaps a better question would have been, how can we help the less fortunate members of our church/wards who are slipping through the cracks?

I know you're kinda getting piled on already but let me try approaching this from a practical perspective. You seem to be expecting some kind of local immediate feedback from tithing that simply can't exist in a church with millions of members. Tithing was instituted long before the Church grew that much, and in its early days it probably was more obvious from an individual's perspective that their tithing funds were helping somebody they knew. Now that the Church has millions of members, it's unavoidable that, from your perspective, it may seem that your tithing funds enter some kind of nebulous cloud and exits that nebulous cloud at some unpredictable spot that doesn't immediately make much sense. That just comes as a nature of the Church's size, not as a indication of a problem with the institution of tithing.

What helps with understanding why that happens is trying to have a big-picture view on tithing. As everybody else in this thread has already stated, the Church does a great number of things all over the world. In my experience, learning more about those programs (especially by participating in them) has helped me be fine with not understanding the distribution of my tithing funds by my perspective.

On a more local level however, if you see somebody who is slipping through the cracks and needs the support of the ward, speak up. Be their advocate. Most often the reason why somebody who needs help doesn't get it is because the ward doesn't know about their situation and/or they may be too afraid or embarrassed to ask for help. Go to your bishop and see what you both can do to ensure that their needs are met. What the bishop ultimately does is up to him, but he's the one responsible for the welfare of the members of his ward and you can help him accomplish that goal in responsible, productive ways.

[Misshalfway]

In regards to the question "Is there a better way to tithe?", I'd have to say...take it up with God. It was His idea.

[Dravin]

The question I would ask in return (as did Bussiness Week) is where did the money to set up such company's come from in the first place?

Church Finances - Commercial Businesses

If you follow through a couple links you find this neat article: Economic History of the Church - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Edited September 1, 2013 by Dravin

[Martin67]

No one is disputing that the church spends lots of money doing things that are not commercially related(i.e. building and maintaining temples and local churches, 3 universities, etc). My biggest question, and one of my biggest issues with the Mormon church, is why is all of their financial information not publicly available? I don't know of any other religion that requires it members to pay its tithing in order to receive the full complement of religious endowments. You are not allowed into the temple, and are therefore unable to do things such as being sealed to your family, unless you have paid your 10%. I think that the church should put out yearly financial statements just like a publicly traded company, that gives specific details on all of its expenditures. It seems like a reasonable request from an organization that expects its members to contribute 10% of their income regardless of the personal financial situation. What possible harm could there be from the church being transparent on their finances? I suspect that it is not done because the church leadership feels that it would be a public relations boondoggle, opening up a can of worms and just causing more questions to be asked. Although the church is not required to release this information, I can see no valid reason for it not to do so.

[Dark_Jedi]

Which is why I said it is for people who need temporary assistance. It is not meant to replace self sufficiency.

I don't disagree. I was just pointing out that there are people out there for whom assistance may have been given but is no longer. The OP mentioned several people in his ward who had hit upon "hard times" (like many Americans) but were not getting assistance from the ward. He didn't specify otherwise - whether they hadn't sought any assistance, assistance had been offered but refused, or whether they had received assistance but don't any longer.

There does seem to be some subjectivity on the part of bishops in how much they offer. I personally am aware that our ward paid one family's mortgage for over three years. The husband/father was employed as a truck driver, the mother wasn't employed. There were two teenage children in the home. They were less active, attending church on holidays and an occasional other day here and there, and none of them held a calling. The mother, in fact, had refused to participate in things like building cleaning, and while she was capable of working she refused to go to work. Same ward, same bishop, same time frame, another active recommend holding family of six who only received food assistance (storehouse) were cut off after six months though he remained unemployed but he substitute taught and the wife went to work for a minimum wage job at night - their financial needs were still not met. The explanation for ending the food assistance was hat it was meant to be temporary. The husband in this case was devastated, but they ended up getting federal food stamps to meet their needs. I home taught both of these families.

I don't disagree that assistance is meant to be temporary and I don't disagree that there should be a limit to the amount assistance that should be offered. The church welfare program is there to temporarily help individuals in need, and I think it does what it is supposed to do for the most part. There are government programs to help otherwise. There is, however, some subjectivity involved and this may be what the OP has observed.

[Backroads]

No one is disputing that the church spends lots of money doing things that are not commercially related(i.e. building and maintaining temples and local churches, 3 universities, etc). My biggest question, and one of my biggest issues with the Mormon church, is why is all of their financial information not publicly available? I don't know of any other religion that requires it members to pay its tithing in order to receive the full complement of religious endowments. You are not allowed into the temple, and are therefore unable to do things such as being sealed to your family, unless you have paid your 10%. I think that the church should put out yearly financial statements just like a publicly traded company, that gives specific details on all of its expenditures. It seems like a reasonable request from an organization that expects its members to contribute 10% of their income regardless of the personal financial situation. What possible harm could there be from the church being transparent on their finances? I suspect that it is not done because the church leadership feels that it would be a public relations boondoggle, opening up a can of worms and just causing more questions to be asked. Although the church is not required to release this information, I can see no valid reason for it not to do so.

While I'm not opposed to the Church putting out financial statements, I wouldn't read them because I personally don't really care.

I pay tithing because it's a commandment. It's not some investment decision.

As for the temple, Why should I enter the temple if I'm not striving to obey commandments? In the LDS view, temples are holy places, not tourist attractions.

[Dravin]

I don't know of any other religion that requires it members to pay its tithing in order to receive the full complement of religious endowments. You are not allowed into the temple, and are therefore unable to do things such as being sealed to your family, unless you have paid your 10%.

Before making additional covenants you are expected to keep the ones you entered into at baptism. It amazes me that people think this is unreasonable, particularly given that the covenants one makes during the endowment are a reaffirmation and development of covenants made during baptism. And it really doesn't matter if you know other religions that do this, it's quite irrelevant.

[Mikedavis]

So, do you think it's cool to insert text in a quote box attributed to another poster without differentiation?

P.S. I'm still waiting on a citation that tithing funds aren't needed to operate the Church.

Definitely not! All I can say is it was was not deliberate on my part. I have no idea how the first part of my reply got mixed up in the last part of the previous message.

[NightSG]

My question is this. Rather than pay tithing to the church, would it not be better to tithe to charity's who help the needy?

The problem with giving to most charities is the overhead. Around here, the county United Way chapter is about as good as it gets, and they still have 11% overhead; for every $1 you give, only $0.89 goes to the sub-charities that it funds. They, of course, also have overhead costs. Now, in this case, I could visit each of those other charitable organizations in an hour or two on less than $5 worth of gas, and be able to choose how the money is distributed, rather than let UW decide who gets how much.

When it comes down to it, if I'm going to give directly, I want to meet the end recipient and see what the situation is for myself. Even then I probably won't give cash, but will take them groceries or pay a bill.

[Martin67]

It's relevant because to outsiders it looks like extortion. Pay your money or you don't get full spiritual benefits. The point I was trying to make, is if the church is making tithing so linked to spirituality, then it has a greater obligation to be transparent about what it is doing with the tithing money. If there is nothing to hide, why not put the information out there? And no, I am not suggesting there is anything unsavory about what the church does with its finances. I just think that it would raise some uncomfortable questions when people see the extent of the church's financial holdings. I think that most members have no idea as to the extent of these holdings. I also think most members would not have a problem with how the money is spent, so why not release the information?

[Mikedavis]

No one is disputing that the church spends lots of money doing things that are not commercially related(i.e. building and maintaining temples and local churches, 3 universities, etc). My biggest question, and one of my biggest issues with the Mormon church, is why is all of their financial information not publicly available? I don't know of any other religion that requires it members to pay its tithing in order to receive the full complement of religious endowments. You are not allowed into the temple, and are therefore unable to do things such as being sealed to your family, unless you have paid your 10%. I think that the church should put out yearly financial statements just like a publicly traded company, that gives specific details on all of its expenditures. It seems like a reasonable request from an organization that expects its members to contribute 10% of their income regardless of the personal financial situation. What possible harm could there be from the church being transparent on their finances? I suspect that it is not done because the church leadership feels that it would be a public relations boondoggle, opening up a can of worms and just causing more questions to be asked. Although the church is not required to release this information, I can see no valid reason for it not to do so.

Good question. Even the Church of Scientology are transparent about the money they recive from members and how they spend it. LOL Mind you that's about all they are transparent about.

[Just_A_Guy]

My biggest question, and one of my biggest issues with the Mormon church, is why is all of their financial information not publicly available?

It was, up until the late 1950s or so. My understanding is that the Church undertook some big construction projects around then, there was a lot of second-guessing about the cost controls (or lack thereof), and so the Church just quit publishing the numbers. (Sixty years later we don't remember the controversy--but we're sure glad to have those temples in Oakland, Los Angeles, and Switzerland, and some of the buildings on Temple Square like the Relief Society building.)

I don't know of any other religion that requires it members to pay its tithing in order to receive the full complement of religious endowments. You are not allowed into the temple, and are therefore unable to do things such as being sealed to your family, unless you have paid your 10%.

From an outsider's perspective it must seem like the temple is just a place where you just go and get a bunch of stuff. Part of that is our own fault, as Mormons. We talk a lot about "temple blessings". We don't say much about "temple obligations". But here's the thing: Before you get sealed you go through the endowment ritual, in which you make a series of covenants about the way you will live your life. One of those covenants (not the only one, but one of them) involves committing all of your resources--not just your financial resources, but your time and talents--to the Lord's work. If a person isn't able to regularly do 10%, then having them come into the temple and promise to be prepared to give 100% at any given time is just setting them up for failure.

If temple rituals were just a carrot to encourage financial donations, then we'd let anyone into the temple so long as their tithing was paid up. But that isn't the case at all. There are all kinds of behaviors that will keep you out of a Mormon temple; and it's often (not always, but often) behaviors that directly relate to one temple covenant or another.

I think that the church should put out yearly financial statements just like a publicly traded company, that gives specific details on all of its expenditures.

Who knows? Maybe someday they will. But let's have no illusions that it would silence any carping. In a (by some estimates) $30 billion institution, there will always be some budget line item to complain about. The fundamental issue is: do you believe that the LDS "apostles" are what they say they are, or not? If you do, the status quo will be at least tolerable, because the logical inference is that you can trust these guys' intentions and priorities (even if not always, necessarily, their abilities). If you don't, no amount of disclosure will ease your concerns.

It seems like a reasonable request from an organization that expects its members to contribute 10% of their income regardless of the personal financial situation.

Mormonism isn't like that. Because we view the Church leadership as authoritative emissaries from God, we consider our relationship with the Church as a "contract of adhesion"--I can take it or I can leave it; but I don't get to dicker over its terms.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Martin67]

Just a guy I think you are spot on with your observations. I think the church doesn't release the financial records because they think it will just result in more complaints. And while I agree that even full disclosure would not satisfy everyone, I do think it would satisfy a lot of people, and I think it's also the right thing to do. The

[Dravin]

It's relevant because to outsiders it looks like extortion. Pay your money or you don't get full spiritual benefits.

So you're saying if saw similar behavior in other churches it wouldn't, as you put it, look like extortion to outsiders? If not, it isn't relevant that you don't see this in other churches. If yes, I'm curious what you feel the threshold would be for the commonality of the behavior to make it not look like extortion to outsiders.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Dravin

[Backroads]

Just a guy I think you are spot on with your observations. I think the church doesn't release the financial records because they think it will just result in more complaints. And while I agree that even full disclosure would not satisfy everyone, I do think it would satisfy a lot of people, and I think it's also the right thing to do. The

I don't want to sound defensive here, but for someone who isn't part of the Church you seem awfully concerned about this. Is this on behalf of a bunch of Mormons you personally know who have expressed to you their desires to see financial reports?

[Martin67]

I am invested in the topic Backroads, because my daughters are being brought up in the church because my wife is LDS. It is the aspect of your faith that bothers me the most, so its a topic of great interest to me. I know from first hand experience how important it is for Mormon women to be sealed to their families in the temple and have a celestial marriage. You can review my personal threads to see how this has affected me personally. None of this can be achieved unless you are paying your 10% tithing.

Dravin, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I am not aware of any other church that requires a certain level of financial commitment in order to achieve the highest level of spiritual awards, but I am by no means a theologian so I have no idea whether or not this is true. I guess I should clarify, for this particular outsider, this appears to be extortion, and I think it is wrong. Everyone has the choice to follow whatever spiritual path they decide, along with the rules that particular religion prescribes for them. But the choices aren't so simple when you have been brought up in a culture where the foundation of your existence revolves around your church. Many people do not agree with or follow every teaching that their religion requires, but for Mormon's not following this principle the consequences are huge.

I don't see any good reasons why the church shouldn't disclose where the members money is going.

[Guest]

Just because you don't see a reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Leah]

Oh boy this is getting out of hand. All the same I will try and answer your questions. First I never said or implied I was an expert on church policy or anything else for that matter. I simply asked some questions. 2nd. Yes I think I can grasp the difference between "tithing and a church bussiness ventures". The question I would ask in return (as did Bussiness Week) is where did the money to set up such company's come from in the first place?

Pam - like you I think this video is "not cool" The only reason I posted the link because I was asked to provide the origins of the "let's go shopping" quote that is circulating all over the Internet.

Anyway, all this is off topic. My original question was "is there a better way to tithe?" Although, on reflection perhaps a better question would have been, how can we help the less fortunate members of our church/wards who are slipping through the cracks?

PS Do you and Leah ever sleep? I thought I was an insomniac, but you girls leave me standing!

Still dodging answering questions, I see. This does not surprise me in the least.

[Leah]

I am invested in the topic Backroads, because my daughters are being brought up in the church because my wife is LDS. It is the aspect of your faith that bothers me the most, so its a topic of great interest to me. I know from first hand experience how important it is for Mormon women to be sealed to their families in the temple and have a celestial marriage. You can review my personal threads to see how this has affected me personally. None of this can be achieved unless you are paying your 10% tithing.

Dravin, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I am not aware of any other church that requires a certain level of financial commitment in order to achieve the highest level of spiritual awards, but I am by no means a theologian so I have no idea whether or not this is true. I guess I should clarify, for this particular outsider, this appears to be extortion, and I think it is wrong. Everyone has the choice to follow whatever spiritual path they decide, along with the rules that particular religion prescribes for them. But the choices aren't so simple when you have been brought up in a culture where the foundation of your existence revolves around your church. Many people do not agree with or follow every teaching that their religion requires, but for Mormon's not following this principle the consequences are huge.

I don't see any good reasons why the church shouldn't disclose where the members money is going.

Are you not grasping the concept of tithing because you can't or because you don't want to?

Tithing is but one of the requirements for a temple recommend, but people who have an axe to grind against the church are inordinately obsessed with it.

I converted from Judaism. We didn't have tithing, we had synagogue dues. These varied from synagogue to synagogue, set forth by the powers that be at each. The amount was the same for all, irrespective of one's income. So I was required to pay the same as my millionaire brother-in-law. Those that didn't pay their dues, were not considered to be members "in good standing". And that was an assessment made solely based on financial contributions, nothing else.

[LittleWyvern]

I guess I should clarify, for this particular outsider, this appears to be extortion, and I think it is wrong.

From what I've understood about your point of view, I think this conclusion is mostly due to unfamiliarity with the Church's implementation of tithing than anything else. I've found that the easiest way to understand why the Church does what it does with tithing funds is to go participate in a program that uses them. For instance, go volunteer at Welfare Square for an hour or so and I think you'll leave with a greater understanding of how the Church handles tithing funds and why it treats tithing as such an important thing.

[Dravin]

Dravin, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I am not aware of any other church that requires a certain level of financial commitment in order to achieve the highest level of spiritual awards, but I am by no means a theologian so I have no idea whether or not this is true. I guess I should clarify, for this particular outsider, this appears to be extortion, and I think it is wrong.

My point is it doesn't matter how many other churches do it unless you're heading down some sort of argument from popularity.

Everyone has the choice to follow whatever spiritual path they decide, along with the rules that particular religion prescribes for them. But the choices aren't so simple when you have been brought up in a culture where the foundation of your existence revolves around your church. Many people do not agree with or follow every teaching that their religion requires, but for Mormon's not following this principle the consequences are huge.

The consequences are only huge if what happens in the temple, the ordinances and covenants, is efficacious.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Dravin

[Mikedavis]

Still dodging answering questions, I see. This does not surprise me in the least.

Leah. I thought I had answered both your questions when I said:

1) "I I'm not an expert on church policy".

2) When I showed you that it was Thomas S. Monson who made the remarks "let's go shopping" as he cut the ribbon to the church's latest shopping mall.

But for your benefit I will go further by answering some questions you didn't ask. Do I feel it is wrong to tithe? No. In fact, I believe that everything belongs to God.

Do I feel our church could do more to help it's own people? Yes. I could elaborate on this but that's another topic altogether.

Do I feel that people who accept the lord into their lives but for whatever reason, can't afford to pay a full tithing, marry in the temple or even get a temple recommend will one day be denied the chance to sit with Heavenly Farther? No. It's my understanding that Jesus never taught such a thing. If he did, please tell me so.

I'm I an expert on any religion? No. Quite the oppersit I'm just a guy looking for answers and to be honest, with so much conflicting information comming at me from all around a very confused one.

[Guest]

Yeah, I don't know that you should trust anyone who would suggest shopping at a mall.

[jerome1232]

Yeah, I don't know that you should trust anyone who would suggest shopping at a mall.

Fwiw, I avoid malls like the plague.

[Dravin]

Yeah, I don't know that you should trust anyone who would suggest shopping at a mall.

We should just be glad someone didn't catch him at a birthday party saying, "Let them eat cake."