Understanding men

[Misshalfway]

I have never been a man. This isn't news.

But I love men. And I say that in the purest sense. But, I'm not sure I understand them all the time and that bothers me. I want to understand more. I want to do better in my practice (i'm a psychotherapist and do a lot of couples counseling) and in my personal life. So, men on this forum? Will you help me?

I have two observations I'd like to discuss.

1) In my practice , I hear frequently that men need their women to want them sexually. This seems reasonable enough on its face. But I also hear that she could be the best at lots of other non-sexual nurturing but if it doesn't translate into hot/erotic/passionate expressions in the bedroom, then it isn't enough. From the wife, I often hear "but I do want sex and I do want you! and we have sex all the time." But he can't receive that. It isn't enough and both end up frustrated.

I'm trying to understand this better because I often see that attachment needs and sexual needs get fused and confused. But if it is healthy, then perhaps she just isn't showing him she wants him in ways he can interpret. Can you help me understand what is a healthy need and what is not? Can you help me understand better what men are asking for and what need they are trying to fill? Are men trying to capture a sexual fantasy, or is this a lesson women need to learn?

2) Also, I often see that some men are intimidated by strong women. I have a boss right now that quickly puts me down if anything I say references his insecurities. I feel compassion, but his defenses are rather hurtful.

Can you help me understand what helps men increase ego strength without becoming a woman who has to diminish herself in order to do it? I'm trying to understand this male ego thing. I don't want to judge it or shame it. I just want to better understand how to help men develop more security without making them feel like they have to be "womanish" to achieve it. And I don't want to have to stop being my best self as a woman or as a female therapist in order to placate the ego into feeling better.

Does that make sense? I hope so.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[MarginOfError]

I'm a man, and I'm sorry, but I don't understand the men you're talking about. I know you can't share many details about your sessions, but if I were to sit in on the exchange you describe in 1) I'd have gained zero usable information about this couple. What does the wife mean by "all the time?" How much more does the husband want it? Does it only count if she's done the chores, or does it only count if she achieves orgasm. Is her sexual enjoyment supposed to be an indicator of his masculine prowess? Is he frustrated that she doesn't achieve orgasm quickly enough, or dramatically enough? Or does he want more indirect foreplay, like overtly checking him out, or sending him suggestive texts? The world of sexual interaction is too large to make a reasonable guess about what his expectations and hopes are. If he won't open up, he only has himself to blame.

As for 2) men need to get over that. There are a lot of valuable traits that are considered feminine traits, and men would be much more successful and interesting if they would adopt those traits. They would also be more successful and interesting if they understood that admitting their short coming and insecurities is the first step to figuring out how to work around or improve them. Avoiding them and putting others down to cover up your insecurities makes you look like a self-absorbed jerk suffering from a case of patheticism. People instinctively want to root for the person who is overcoming something. It's a strange irony in life that if you candidly admit your flaws, people seem to like you more. The sooner men understand that, the better off they (and we) will be.

Sadly, I have no idea how to convince them of this. Men who are busy covering up their flaws are usually too interested in being right to allow themselves to be persuaded by these facts. I think our only hope is to teach our boys and girls not to grow up to be like these men.

[drham3rd]

Okay, concerning #1. I'm speaking from just my perspective of course. What I need from my woman is intimacy in all its formulations. I need my woman to be my best friend, so that we communicate freely and have that form of intimacy. I need my woman to be my help-mate, to help me be a better husband and a better person, that is another form of intimacy. And i need my woman to allow me to make love to her fully in all its forms. Now I have known men who get these forms of intimacy fused together and that may be a source of conflict.

A little history, I was married to a woman for 33 years, the last 5 years the intimacy started to disappear. First was the sexual intimacy then the emotional, then finally the friendship. Once all these were gone, there was nothing left for us and we divorced.

I hope this helps.

[Misshalfway]

I'm sorry to hear your marriage ended, drham3rd. That must have been a very difficult loss after 33 years.

But I appreciate your statements in paragraph one. I loved your statement "allowing me to make love to her fully in all its forms". I don't know that these men are doing that. I think they are intimidated by the courting process and terrified of the potential for rejection. And so instead of bid for what they need, they expect the wife to do it for them in some way or to behave in ways that remove all vulnerability. When she doesn't, they become resentful and blame her. I don't think the men I'm treating now could even articulate what you just said. Many of them have decided that if they have better sex, all their problems in the marriage would go away and all of their needs would be met. Which is obviously why they are in my office. :)

Thank you for you input.

[Misshalfway]

I'm a man, and I'm sorry, but I don't understand the men you're talking about. I know you can't share many details about your sessions, but if I were to sit in on the exchange you describe in 1) I'd have gained zero usable information about this couple. What does the wife mean by "all the time?" How much more does the husband want it? Does it only count if she's done the chores, or does it only count if she achieves orgasm. Is her sexual enjoyment supposed to be an indicator of his masculine prowess? Is he frustrated that she doesn't achieve orgasm quickly enough, or dramatically enough? Or does he want more indirect foreplay, like overtly checking him out, or sending him suggestive texts? The world of sexual interaction is too large to make a reasonable guess about what his expectations and hopes are. If he won't open up, he only has himself to blame.

As for 2) men need to get over that. There are a lot of valuable traits that are considered feminine traits, and men would be much more successful and interesting if they would adopt those traits. They would also be more successful and interesting if they understood that admitting their short coming and insecurities is the first step to figuring out how to work around or improve them. Avoiding them and putting others down to cover up your insecurities makes you look like a self-absorbed jerk suffering from a case of patheticism. People instinctively want to root for the person who is overcoming something. It's a strange irony in life that if you candidly admit your flaws, people seem to like you more. The sooner men understand that, the better off they (and we) will be.

Sadly, I have no idea how to convince them of this. Men who are busy covering up their flaws are usually too interested in being right to allow themselves to be persuaded by these facts. I think our only hope is to teach our boys and girls not to grow up to be like these men.

Thank you, MOE. I was hoping you would comment on this. :) I'm going to go mull this over.

[Dravin]

1) In my practice , I hear frequently that men need their women to want them sexually. This seems reasonable enough on its face. But I also hear that she could be the best at lots of other non-sexual nurturing but if it doesn't translate into hot/erotic/passionate expressions in the bedroom, then it isn't enough. From the wife, I often hear "but I do want sex and I do want you! and we have sex all the time." But he can't receive that. It isn't enough and both end up frustrated.

I don't understand why you are bringing up non-sexual nurturing in a question concerning men wanting their women to want them sexually. I understanding the part about wanting to feel needed sexually and just what that means as it pertains to a particular style or way of being wanted, but I'm unsure how hugs and favorite dinners after a hard week at work pertains to that. It feels a lot like, "His primary love language is words of affirmation, but it doesn't seem to be fulfilled by acts of service." If he wants to be wanted sexually why would feeling wanted emotionally or as a provider, or some other way, fulfill that particular need?

From the wife, I often hear "but I do want sex and I do want you! and we have sex all the time."

Having sex != feeling wanted sexually. To draw an example with a stereotype, if the wife sits back and thinks of England during sex and it feels like every time sex is initiated that she feels it's a chore like washing the dishes then one could have lots of sex without feeling wanted sexually. I think this is one of those cases where perception is key. She may not feel that way at all, but she may be perceived that way regardless. Your basic communication mishap.

There are a lot of valuable traits that are considered feminine traits, and men would be much more successful and interesting if they would adopt those traits.

On the flip side there are a lot of valuable traits that are considered masculine traits, and women would be much more successful and interesting if they would adopt those traits. Some traits, for either gender, are beneficial, some are neutral, and some are negative. If a trait is beneficial or neutral it should be be respected or left alone, if it is negative it should be addressed (depending on context and the like).

I'm honestly hard pressed to view this in gender specific terms. There are a lot of insecure people who try to cover their insecurities up by lashing out. How they lash out may have some gender specifics, but I suggest most people who are insecure enough to lash out either do so regardless of the gender of the person bringing up their insecurities, or you've just got yourself an idiot convinced in the superiority of their own gender. That is to say, unless I've witnessed evidence of the latter I'd probably assume the former. Same thing applies to race.

@Misshalfway: Have you seen such evidence?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

This is a dumb question and I'm not a man, but are these wives flirting with their men outside their bedroom? Grabbing their butts in the kitchen? Complimenting how they look? "Sneaking" peaks when they're in the shower?

I think always continuing to flirt with your husband is important, as well as making the effort to initiate, as Dravin brought up.

[Lakumi]

I'm sorry to hear your marriage ended, drham3rd. That must have been a very difficult loss after 33 years.

But I appreciate your statements in paragraph one. I loved your statement "allowing me to make love to her fully in all its forms". I don't know that these men are doing that. I think they are intimidated by the courting process and terrified of the potential for rejection.

Thank you for you input.

the courting process is a terrifying thing, some people can be downright cruel (maybe I guess they assume everyone just wants to sleep with them and leave, a lot of men do)

dating isn't fun, its awkward, boring and has been for me, a complete waste of time

[Misshalfway]

Dravin...

I don't understand why you are bringing up non-sexual nurturing in a question concerning men wanting their women to want them sexually. I understanding the part about wanting to feel needed sexually and just what that means as it pertains to a particular style or way of being wanted , but I'm unsure how hugs and favorite dinners after a hard week at work pertains to that. It feels a lot like, "His primary love language is words of affirmation, but it doesn't seem to be fulfilled by acts of service." If he wants to be wanted sexually why would feeling wanted emotionally or as a provider, or some other way, fulfill that particular need?

I couple the two because that is how it's described to me by my clients. This is the content of the way they express their concerns. He says, "She doesn't love me. She doesn't show me she loves me." She said, "But I do. I fold your shirts and make you dinners and comfort you when you've had a bad day. " He says, "Yes, but that's not enough. I need you to want me sexually."

I'm trying to understand that dismissal of the non-sexual offerings and what need isn't getting met. Clients don't know. They know they are hurting but it's hard to articulate basic needs. This is hard for both genders, but I'm focusing on what I hear from men in this thread.

Having sex != feeling wanted sexually. To draw an example with a stereotype, if the wife sits back and thinks of England during sex and it feels like every time sex is initiated that she feels it's a chore like washing the dishes then one could have lots of sex without feeling wanted sexually. I think this is one of those cases where perception is key. She may not feel that way at all, but she may be perceived that way regardless. Your basic communication mishap.

Hey! England is nice this time of year.

Yes. I hear this. Makes perfect sense and is absolutely valid. What I don't understand is the need for her "desire" to appear more erotic than she is comfortable expressing. If she's not reciprocating, I can address that with her. If he is dismissing her, rejecting her offerings, or otherwise unable to receive, that is what I want to understand.

I'm honestly hard pressed to view this in gender specific terms. There are a lot of insecure people who try to cover their insecurities up by lashing out. How they lash out may have some gender specifics, but I suggest most people who are insecure enough to lash out either do so regardless of the gender of the person bringing up their insecurities, or you've just got yourself an idiot convinced in the superiority of their own gender. That is to say, unless I've witnessed evidence of the latter I'd probably assume the former. Same thing applies to race.

I appreciate your clarification about gender. Yes, I understand that defenses are not gender specific. In this thread, I'm focusing only on the male gender and more specifically the problems I seem to run into while just being strong in front of men. Since I started this new profession, I've had four male bosses. All four behave in basically the same way. I find myself reacting by hiding my strengths and opinions, stroking their ego, and other equally gross pleasing placating behaviors.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

This is a dumb question and I'm not a man, but are these wives flirting with their men outside their bedroom? Grabbing their butts in the kitchen? Complimenting how they look? "Sneaking" peaks when they're in the shower?

I think always continuing to flirt with your husband is important, as well as making the effort to initiate, as Dravin brought up.

This is a great point.

I often see that women are less comfortable with sexually based flirting because of their strivings to live in sexual purity.

Other times my wives have shut down. Their offerings have been rejected and so their offerings become less open and less proactive.

[estradling75]

I'm trying to understand that dismissal of the non-sexual offerings and what need isn't getting met. Clients don't know. They know they are hurting but it's hard to articulate basic needs. This is hard for both genders, but I'm focusing on what I hear from men in this thread.

Because in the case you are describing the man has not learned to interpret the non-sexual

offering as his wife saying "I want you." Somethings people get innately and somethings people have to train themselves to understand. Stereotypically men and women fall into different innate vs trained categories

[beefche]

Miss 1/2, are you finding that wives are afraid that if they express themselves sexually to their husbands (in the bedroom as in being sexually adventurous or amorous or out of the bedroom with sexy flirting), that they, the wives, feel they are breaking the LoC or are somehow less pure?

[Roseslipper]

I dont know if i should or shouldn't respond since I am not married and never have been. But I do know that men and woman think different and see things differently. You say something, he is hearing something alse and vice a versa And that in it self is a huge problem if not worked on. open communication in all relationships is a biggie 2 understand the wants and needs of another, with saying this I know that this is not easy for many to do.

Sex is a biggie, Id assume in marriage cause its a biggie out of marriage and a hard thing to have a relationship with the opposite sex when one wants to live the law of chasity and one doesnt understand it, and trying to develop a relationship. Sex seems to mean everything to most man.But I'm talking of men out of the church I dont have experience with men from within the church. Why I dont know. I would like to know the answer to this. guess maybe out of marriage its purely a selfish thing, verses a selfless thing of wanting to give your self totally to the person u choose to build a life with, have children and bond to your husband. After marriage I dont understand how a woman wouldnt' flirt with her husband. You are a couple, he's your best friend. Enjoy each other's difference's.

Do men feel loved when they are cuddle and pampered by their woman? I'd like to know the answer to this question. I'm actually dating a man now 8 yrs older then I, which is ok with me cause Im old but the sex thing has broken us apart and where now back again trying, but I'm afraid it's always going to be there. sorry if I changed the subject some. I need help in this area too. hhaha men r from mars women from venus.

I would like to understand men more myself...ty for the post .

Edited September 18, 2013 by Roseslipper

[Misshalfway]

Miss 1/2, are you finding that wives are afraid that if they express themselves sexually to their husbands (in the bedroom as in being sexually adventurous or amorous or out of the bedroom with sexy flirting), that they, the wives, feel they are breaking the LoC or are somehow less pure?

Hm. That might be an over simplification, but I do feel echoes of this in what I see.

I should add that I feel this behavior gets judged as being prudish or something similar. (IMO happens with both men and women in the church and my personal preference is to help them both feel more comfortable with their sexual selves without worrying about impurity.) But I don't know that this is always the case. I think that disinterest in the lustful IS in fact a manifestation of sexual purity.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[ZionsRodeVos]

I don't think I have an ego and so can't talk much about that.

I was married for about 13 years and have been divorced now for about 4 years.

Doing acts of service or kindness shows love but it is not an adequate replacement for sex. It was baffling to me that the longer I was married the less sex I got. I thought there would be a growing together in all things including intimacy. A wife folding shirts, making dinner, and comforting me when I've had a bad day and caring for me when I am sick are all good things and I never rejected them nor dismissed them but they couldn't compensate for the frustrations I felt as sex between her and me became less and less. When we were first married she often initiated sex but as the years went on it was only me and often she refused. I noticed the difference and that difference affected other aspects of our relationship.

Hopefully some of this helps you.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think I have an ego and so can't talk much about that.

I was married for about 13 years and have been divorced now for about 4 years.

Doing acts of service or kindness shows love but it is not an adequate replacement for sex. It was baffling to me that the longer I was married the less sex I got. I thought there would be a growing together in all things including intimacy. A wife folding shirts, making dinner, and comforting me when I've had a bad day and caring for me when I am sick are all good things and I never rejected them nor dismissed them but they couldn't compensate for the frustrations I felt as sex between her and me became less and less. When we were first married she often initiated sex but as the years went on it was only me and often she refused. I noticed the difference and that difference affected other aspects of our relationship.

Hopefully some of this helps you.

Thanks for this. I appreciate you sharing from your personal experience.

Seems obvious that it would be frustrating for anyone in that situation. I've had male clients who were the ones withdrawing sexually. And the wife was the one feeling frustration. I think when we're not having sex it's alarming for everyone involved.

I become more confused when the couple is having sex regularly...lets say once or twice a week and the wife reports "i assumed everything was fine." She is not a perfect sex kitten as she is often tired with child rearing or a hundred other drains on her energy, but she is interested and engaged sexually albeit behaviorally imperfect. And husband says he isn't feeling wanted sexually....that he needs to feel wanted sexually. My question is whether or not this "demand" for more orgasmic behaviors a healthy thing? A thing that is universal to all men (in general) and something women are missing as far as understanding the unique need set of men? Or is this a manifestation of something less healthy?

If its the first, my goal would be to help the couple meet the need together as a team. If its the second, then my work is with the husband.

[Misshalfway]

Because in the case you are describing the man has not learned to interpret the non-sexual

offering as his wife saying "I want you." Somethings people get innately and somethings people have to train themselves to understand. Stereotypically men and women fall into different innate vs trained categories

Is that what happens? Do men get confused if they don't see the woman's "interest" manifest in orgasmic ways? Is it that men need the sexual manifestations in order to know they are ok? Is that why, as Zion was expressing, that non sexual nurturing isn't enough? Again, I get confused when I see the wife IS interested in sex, and her man, and engaging in sex twice a week but still gets interpreted as not wanting him. My female brain wants to protest and defend. Does she have to become something more sexually exaggerated in order to convince the man he is sexually desirable? I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

[Windseeker]

I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

I be a dude, and I wouldn't either. No women (or man) should feel the need to debase themselves in order satisfy their partner. I think we are at the crux of the problem. It just sounds like some of these men in your scenario need to adjust their mindset.

My sister in law won't french kiss my brother (her husband). He really wishes this was part of their intimacy but has learned to live without. I have to admit I feel bad for him and think she needs to adjust. The question is how far is too far and what is reasonable.

[Leah]

Okay, concerning #1. I'm speaking from just my perspective of course. What I need from my woman is intimacy in all its formulations. I need my woman to be my best friend, so that we communicate freely and have that form of intimacy. I need my woman to be my help-mate, to help me be a better husband and a better person, that is another form of intimacy. And i need my woman to allow me to make love to her fully in all its forms. Now I have known men who get these forms of intimacy fused together and that may be a source of conflict.

A little history, I was married to a woman for 33 years, the last 5 years the intimacy started to disappear. First was the sexual intimacy then the emotional, then finally the friendship. Once all these were gone, there was nothing left for us and we divorced.

I hope this helps.

I am curious to know what you mean by the bolded. Thx.

[MrShorty]

This is the content of the way they express their concerns. He says, "She doesn't love me. She doesn't show me she loves me." She said, "But I do. I fold your shirts and make you dinners and comfort you when you've had a bad day. " He says, "Yes, but that's not enough. I need you to want me sexually."

When put into these "simple" statements, I am reminded of most of Dr. Chapman's examples from The Five Love Languages. His primary love language might be "physical touch" with an emphasis on sexual touch, while her primary love language might be "acts of service" with an emphasis on domestic service. In Dr. Chapman's terms, this isn't necessarily a gender thing, but a difference in love language. Dr. John Lund, who proposed a scheme with three love languages (touch, visual, auditory -- I think) observed in a talk on CD I listened to that, in this three love language scheme, about half of men were in the "physical touch" group.

I don't know how much it really helps, but I find that the concept of "love languages" can help bridge these kind of gaps. In a case like this, the wife needs to understand how sex is an important way to speak his love language and how "eagerly" (or some other better term) she involves herself in the sexual relationship can be part of that. On the flip side, such a husband needs to recognize that this may not be a primary way that his wife shows love and be gracious in accepting how she engages sexually in much the same way we are gracious and patient with someone who speaks a foreign language but is trying to communicate with us.

[estradling75]

Is that what happens? Do men get confused if they don't see the woman's "interest" manifest in orgasmic ways?

Why do you default to just the men getting confused? Communication is a two-way street both parties in to adjust and learn what the other needs and how they express themselves.

If the man does not feel sexually desired by his wife but they are having sex regularly... Then you really need to talk to the man and find out what makes him feel sexually desired (It might not really be sex at all but just how this guy filters things). Once that is discovered and out in the open then the two of them can work on it can be handled.

[Misshalfway]

Why do you default to just the men getting confused? Communication is a two-way street both parties in to adjust and learn what the other needs and how they express themselves.

If the man does not feel sexually desired by his wife but they are having sex regularly... Then you really need to talk to the man and find out what makes him feel sexually desired (It might not really be sex at all but just how this guy filters things). Once that is discovered and out in the open then the two of them can work on it can be handled.

Sorry. I must have worded that poorly. I've meant to highlight the confusion that happens on both sides. I think I understand the confusion or frustration on the female side simply because I am female. I seek to understand what it's like for men. That is all.

[MrShorty]

Is that what happens? Do men get confused if they don't see the woman's "interest" manifest in orgasmic ways? Is it that men need the sexual manifestations in order to know they are ok? Is that why, as Zion was expressing, that non sexual nurturing isn't enough? Again, I get confused when I see the wife IS interested in sex, and her man, and engaging in sex twice a week but still gets interpreted as not wanting him. My female brain wants to protest and defend. Does she have to become something more sexually exaggerated in order to convince the man he is sexually desirable? I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

This post reminds of David Schnarch's series of articles called "sex always consists of leftovers." In this version, the man is so "emotionally fused" with his wife, that, when she does not express sexual desire in the same way he does or when she desires something sexually that he doesn't, he is thrown out of emotional equilibrium, and feels like something must be wrong (either with himself or with his wife). The idea being that each should become "differentiated" enough that there sense of emotional balance is not dependent on how the other experiences sex. He needs to be strong enough to accept that his wife probably does not experience sexual desire in the same way that he does or that she just doesn't want to do certain things. Neither is "wrong" or "right" in their desires or the way they experience their sexuality. Once they are both on a solid enough footing to accept their differences, then they can work together to explore their sexuality together -- in what ways do they each need to "grow" sexually to become a stronger couple.

(I probably didn't explain that very well. I often find Dr. Schnarch's ideas intriguing, but I don't know that I always understand them or see exactly how they apply).

[estradling75]

Sorry. I must have worded that poorly. I've meant to highlight the confusion that happens on both sides. I think I understand the confusion or frustration on the female side simply because I am female. I seek to understand what it's like for men. That is all.

Understood... lets see if we can nail down why this is confusing...

The man does not feel desired sexually

The woman when she desires the man sexually goes and folds his laundry (or some other task)

And confusion reins

[Leah]

When put into these "simple" statements, I am reminded of most of Dr. Chapman's examples from The Five Love Languages. His primary love language might be "physical touch" with an emphasis on sexual touch, while her primary love language might be "acts of service" with an emphasis on domestic service. In Dr. Chapman's terms, this isn't necessarily a gender thing, but a difference in love language. Dr. John Lund, who proposed a scheme with three love languages (touch, visual, auditory -- I think) observed in a talk on CD I listened to that, in this three love language scheme, about half of men were in the "physical touch" group.

I don't know how much it really helps, but I find that the concept of "love languages" can help bridge these kind of gaps. In a case like this, the wife needs to understand how sex is an important way to speak his love language and how "eagerly" (or some other better term) she involves herself in the sexual relationship can be part of that. On the flip side, such a husband needs to recognize that this may not be a primary way that his wife shows love and be gracious in accepting how she engages sexually in much the same way we are gracious and patient with someone who speaks a foreign language but is trying to communicate with us.

I think a lot of women do understand this. Or, at least, accept that such theories exist. But I am not sure that this addresses those women who are expressing love in "their way" AND his way and are indeed having regular sex wiht him....but he wants sex even more often. There are men who - even though their wife IS having sex with them on a very regular basis - still complain that she doesn't want him sexually, because the number of times they do have sex doesn't match some arbitrary number he has in his head as the "right" amount.