What to do ...? (WARNING: Long!)

[Aeternum]

I've been married for 13 years to a man I met in NZ while on his mission. We have 5 kids, he works and goes to school and we're in the process of finishing immigration, so I can finally have a job/career! (Our youngest started 1st grade this year)

Here's my dilhema. I understand that by seeking out a divorce, you're breaking a covenant you have entered into with our Heavenly Father. I understand that divorce is ALWAYS hard, especially when kids are involved and that you should try to do all you can before resorting to something so final. I also realize that everyone has flaws and faults, so our marriage is definitely not one-sided, with me as the victim.

We have gone to counselling, I've gone to solo counselling (I had a bad upbringing) I also have no family here in the country, nor are they members. I have attended the marriage class with my husband, on sundays. I've attended regular appointments with our Bishop in 3 different wards over several years. This is the first time, however, that I am truly striving to do the right thing. No matter WHAT! Here's where things get messy. My husband is abusive. Verbally, emotionally, sometimes physically. He degrades us (me & the kids) and then blames his actions ON us, he's constantly turning any situation around, so he is not the responsible one, and no matter how hard it is, I'll (not every time - I'm not perfect. But definitely 8 out of 10 times) respond with how I can change or what I need to improve in the situation, but can he understand that the way he dealt with whoever, screaming and calling them "you are a freaking MORONIC piece of S***. Useless a**hole - you're so pathetic." etc. etc. To be fair, I've lost it before as well, I'm not pointing out his shortcomings, all I'm trying to gain is advice on what do I do from here? He doesn't respect Bishophric authority, he has no recommend, I don't see him pray (to be fair - I think he does now and then) He doesn't read, and our children beg me to fix this. He also works 3 jobs, and attends school fulltime, so if he's not working nightshift, he's actually here maybe 24 hours in a total week? I've read talks, scriptures, prayed on what I can do differently - only now. I'm out of ideas. I feel like I'm not understanding the Spirit (he's told me it's not the Spirit telling me this or that ...???) But I can say, he believes in the Church. He just doesn't quite live it? Please give me any advice on what I could do to try to get him to see. Or should I take my children and break that covenant? Serious answers only, please. And Thanks. :)

[Guest]

You're not breaking the covenant. He is. Get out.

[Aeternum]

simplicity is a grand thing. i never thought of looking at it from that angle before. I can truly say I'm NOT breaking any of my covenants, despite having many many flaws. That def. helped. thank you.

[Smudge]

Speaking as the child of divorce! There are times when divorce is the only option for yourself and your children! My father was an alcoholic and drank all the money brought into the home and practiced black magic thus bringing negative spirits into the house. My mother eventually divorced him - and struggled to bring us up alone. My sister was friends with a girl whose parents both drank heavily and having seen their lifes I can honestly say that I am grateful my mother did what she did! And if it is any reassurance to you - I know that there all sorts of statistics saying that children of divorce don't achieve as much, get into more trouble etc etc as children in married families - I have an Honors degree and a total of 6 yrs post compulsary education and my sister has 2 years (all she needed for what she wanted to do!). Neither of us have gotten into bother with drugs or had major issues with drinking although my sis did fall away from the church and does drink.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Smudge

[Just_A_Guy]

Has he always been like this? Three jobs is a tremendous strain; if he can get away with working less you might see a BIG improvement.

But in the interim, there's no reason to subject yourself to the kind of things you describe. I agree with Eowyn. The covenant doesn't break when someone files divorce papers. It breaks when someone fails to observe and keep the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

Divorce papers make a broken marriage covenant much harder to repair (if repairing it is still desirable); but they do not always constitute marriage covenant-breaking per se. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and the kids.

[mdfxdb]

Abuse

Audltery

Addiction

You have abuse it's one of the 3 A's that justify divorce. It's a judgement call, but no one should have to live with abuse.....ever.

[Vort]

Abuse

Audltery

Addiction

You have abuse it's one of the 3 A's that justify divorce. It's a judgement call, but no one should have to live with abuse.....ever.

The problem with neat and self-evidently true rules like this is that they aren't flexible enough to account for real life. For example, I have been "abusive" in my marriage at times, raising my voice to my wife or otherwise saying mean things. I may be wrong, but I strongly suspect that every married person on this board has at some time done or said something that could reasonably be considered "abusive". So by mdfxdb's method of reckoning, everyone has justifiable cause for divorce.

It is not that I necessarily disagree with any specific instance. Rather, the whole way of thinking seems off to me. We should not be looking for reasons to justify divorce. We should be looking for ways to make marriages successful.

I am not criticizing mdfxdb. I am not even really disagreeing with him. I just think that neatly packaged rules often are not the best way to approach such issues. Based on the OP's description, her husband does indeed sound verbally abusive. But does that really mean that divorce is the best option? A few generations ago, the very idea that a wife could or (especially) ought to divorce her husband because he spoke meanly to her would have been scoffed at. Have we really gotten so much more preciously sensitive? Or are we really so much smarter than previous generations as to understand how unimportant marriage really is vis-a-vis screaming at your spouse?

In general, I get very uncomfortable when a message board urges someone to divorce his or her spouse. This is especially true in the lack of evidence of infidelity or gross abuse. I don't know whether the OP's description qualifies as "gross abuse", but my impression is that it does not.

Are marriages precious and sacred? If so, we should be working to save them if at all possible. Having children involved surely makes this triply so. I would think that encouraging words might be more appropriate than calls for divorce.

(And, by the way, the fact that we have heard only one viewpoint or "side" of the issue is telling. What might the husband say? Things may not be exactly as we think. Though even if the OP is 100% accurate in her portrayal of things, it's still not obvious to me that divorce is the appropriate answer.)

[mdfxdb]

My husband is abusive. Verbally, emotionally, sometimes physically.

I agree, there are no absolutes. The three A's are guidelines only, and need to be applied on an individual basis per individual circumstances. However, in this case the OP cited physical abuse. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Vort]

I agree, there are no absolutes. The three A's are guidelines only, and need to be applied on an individual basis per individual circumstances. However, in this case the OP cited physical abuse. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

If a wife gets in her husband's face during a heated argument as he's leaving the room and he pushes her firmly out of the way (not pushing her over, just aside), that might well be considered "physical abuse". I have seen more than one woman who likes to hit her husband when she's upset at him -- "love taps", they call them. They may not leave bruises, but the very idea startles me.

I do not believe either of these scenarios constitutes prima facie evidence of marriage-termination-worthy abuse.

If a woman (or a man) is in danger from her/his spouse, or if the children are, it's an easy call. Otherwise, it is not, and it is probably much better for people on a discussion list to understand and acknowledge that they are not in a position to offer substantive advice. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Guest]

Telling children that they are useless, pathetic, etc. is inexcusable. She has said that he won't take responsibility for the behavior. If he saw it as a problem and committed to change, that would be one thing. But this is a man who is destroying the confidence of his wife and children, with no apology or intention to change (assuming that the OP is accurate in her description, which only she can say). If that is the kind of home he is providing for them, I would say they're better off in a home without him. Even outside of physical abuse.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I do find it alarming that the majority of the posts in regards to marital difficulties seems to encourage divorce as the gut reaction to the original posters observations. I am not inferring that they don't have cause to seek advice, but I do find it alarming that so many are keen to suggest divorce first.

We don't understand the context of their relationship. We don't understand how the original poster treats their own spouse. We seem to assume that the woman who is more likely to report their issues here is indeed the victim. As far as covenants are concerned, just because someone is believed to have broken their own, does not give someone leave to break their own. Covenants are not contracts.

In this case, I would say the husband is under extreme pressure and the original poster has cause to seek reassurance and advice. However, what we should probably only suggest that what she has been told is unhealthy and wrong, that they need marriage counselling. Divorce should be the last resort, not the first suggestion.

Even if your husband is under extreme stress, he is behaving harshly and unfairly. He needs to be told that by someone in authority and held accountable.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[Guest]

It's not the first suggestion. He has refused counseling, seeing the bishop, or anything that would bring reform.

[Aeternum]

this was really helpful, and thank you to everyone for well-intended advice. it is hard when you only have one side to go by, and every marriage has it's own unique "problems". I'll ask my bishop for a blessing, fast and go back to the temple and try to understand what my Heavenly Father would have me learn/do. But I appreciate everyone's advice. :)

[Mahone]

Looking at things from a slightly different perspective (as someone who is also relocating country due to marriage) - what impact will divorce have on your immigration status?

You do not want to find yourself in a situation where you are no longer eligible to live in the country that your children live in, whether this is temporary or permanent (although worth checking, it's doubtful it'll be permanent but it's not unrealistic that you may be forced to leave whilst sorting the documentation out).

[Just_A_Guy]

As far as covenants are concerned, just because someone is believed to have broken their own, does not give someone leave to break their own. Covenants are not contracts.

Your post has many excellent points, PB. I would add, though, that while a temple marriage covenant is not a mere contract--it is also not a physical, spiritual, or emotional suicide pact.

[Guest]

Divorce is not the only answer. You can separate without having to divorce if you and your husband can agree on separation boundaries. Divorce is only necessary when you require legal protection - especially legal protection for the children and finances.

[McLainDow]

There is no excuse for someone putting their hands you. None. People who excuse this kind of behavior are not in agreement with what the Lord wants or what the church advocates. Have the abuser removed from your home before it escalates.

[Backroads]

I think I lean more towards Eowyn's view. Aeternum, I'd rather like to know what you are doing wrong, if you could fairly express it. As it is, this sounds like a very toxic marriage. You might have your flaws as well, but I don't agree with the notion that you were "asking for abuse".

[Suzie]

I agree 100% with every post Eowyn posted on this thread.

We can rationalize it in every way, shape and form and still doesn't make it right and I would be very careful to counsel someone or perhaps hint that sometimes "We are all a little abusive" and let this person consider staying in this marriage and putting herself and children in danger.

However this is what stands out the most to me:

My husband is abusive. Verbally, emotionally, sometimes physically.

Screaming and calling them "you are a freaking MORONIC piece of S***. Useless a**hole - you're so pathetic."

He can work 100000 jobs for that matter and it doesn't give him the right to be emotionally, verbally AND physically abusive to his wife and children. For what is being described, this relationship has been toxic for YEARS to the point where the victim in this case wonders what flaws or things she might be doing "wrong". This is a very common behavior in victims of domestic violence.

I can only tell you that this situation seems dangerous and if I was you, I would be seeking legal advise and protecting myself and my children by taking them out of that environment.

All the best!

[garryw]

This is a good example of the benefits of a prenup. If your spouse is abusive, you can just show him/her to the door. Simple yet effective. Without a prenup "no-fault" divorce would put you on the hook to support that person who abused you with alimony payments.

[Just_A_Guy]

This is a good example of the benefits of a prenup. If your spouse is abusive, you can just show him/her to the door. Simple yet effective. Without a prenup "no-fault" divorce would put you on the hook to support that person who abused you with alimony payments.

Garry, I realize that you have kind of a soapbox about prenuptial agreements here; and it's not altogether unwarranted.

But I would respectfully submit that your statement that "Without a prenup 'no-fault' divorce would put you on the hook to support that person who abused you with alimony payments" is just plain untrue--at least, in the "no-fault" jurisdiction where I practice.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Just_A_Guy