Millennium wait for 87 years

[pam]

Again,

I guess some know more than even Christ.

[Speakzeasy]

Even if we weren't told in the scriptures that even the angels in heaven don't know, what would be the advantage of pinpointing a date?

We do not need to pinpoint a date. We do need to know that Jesus was born four millennium after Adam. As I mentioned in the previous post to Traveler, the prophecies are about events in Gentile history. There by we know that we are two millennium from Jesus and at the beginning of seventh millennium from Adam.

The only prophet to mention the birth of Jesus in association with the Gentiles is Nephi (1 Ne. 1-36). And even at that it is mentioned in a way that leads to the house of Israel, in the descendants of Manasseh (the Nephites), receiving a visit from Jesus. From Jesus visiting the Nephites, to the written history of the Nephites being brought forth to the Gentiles on the promised land (the Book of Mormon). Note that Nephi uses the European Gentiles to tell the story. Note also the Nephi's prophecy relating to the Gentiles starts about the time of the beginning of what I refer to as the Christian Roman Church (1 Ne. 13:1-10).

The birth of Jesus occurs during the time period of the Roman Empire. This is where Daniel and Nephi cross paths. Daniel story, as he relates it, traverses through the expanding of the Roman Empire (after the defeat of Macedonia in 168 BC), then to the beginning of, what I refer to as, the Christian Roman Empire and beyond.

Daniel earliest expanding empire is in chapter eight starting with the Macedonian Empire (the ram). He then moves on to the Roman Empire (the he goat). Look on a map of Europe, you can see were Roman is in relationship to Macedonia. Note both are Gentile nations. Macedonia is the first expanding empire in Europe, under Philip II (359 - 336 BC) and Alexander III "the Great" (336-323 BC)

Now with a calendar we can bring these events together and we can start moving forward in time.

Will following the prophetic trail pointing us to our time provide a date that will tell us the date of Jesus second coming? No. However, it will provide a time line in which we be able to understand the events that occur to nearly the time frame of that moment.

Isaiah tells of the smoke from the north (Isa. 14:31). Ezekiel talks about a cloud from the north (Ezek. 38:15-16). Both are the same event. Knowing how Ezekiel chapter 38 fits in will help understanding as well. Following the story in Gentile history as Nephi has started it for us we will be able to put together the story so that we will know what Isaiah and Ezekiel are talking about.

The event spoken of by Isaiah (Isa. 14:31) and Ezekiel (Ezek. 38:15-16) will provide an approximate time period in relationship to the gathering to Zion. That is why the verse is so important, that is why calendars and dates are so important. (This is the subject of another thread: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/55743-event-establishing-zion.html)

Edited October 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

I guess some know more than even Christ.

Hmmm . . . .

Was this assumed or did you read it in my post somewhere?

[Guest]

The point being, the year or day or time shouldn't matter. We should be preparing ourselves every day.

[pam]

Hmmm . . . .

Was this assumed or did you read it in my post somewhere?

Was this assumed or did you read it in my post somewhere that I was referring to you? I have seen this time and time again on this site. People thinking they have the whole time for the second coming figured out. We have been taught that no one knows the time, not even Christ, when He will return.

[Vort]

Christ will not come in my lifetime. Or he will. But if he doesn't, I will die and be standing before him. So it's really six of one and a half-dozen of the other, isn't it?

[Roseslipper]

The point being, the year or day or time shouldn't matter. We should be preparing ourselves every day.

i agree with you Eowyn totally!!!!!!!!!!

[Traveler]

Was this assumed or did you read it in my post somewhere that I was referring to you? I have seen this time and time again on this site. People thinking they have the whole time for the second coming figured out. We have been taught that no one knows the time, not even Christ, when He will return.

As I have posted - I believe there is a misunderstanding of scripture. As the time draws closer we should be able to narrow down the time of the return of Christ. For example at the moment that CNN informs us that two prophets are murdered in Jerusalem and left dead in the streets - I personally will know the month, day and year that Jesus will return. The Book of Revelation says that the entire world will know of this event and even celibrate. I find it most difficult that the Saints of G-d would remain ignorant of such an important development.

We can speculate why scripture gives us such an exact detail in relationship to time. One thing I find interesting is that Matt 24 talks about the sign of Christ's coming. I find this interesting because most Christians (traditional Christians) think that everyone will see Christ at his coming but Matt 24 speaks instead of the sign of his coming. I have often asked what is this great sign of the coming of Christ? I have some ideas but must honestly admit that I do not know for sure what the sign is.

To be honest I an somewhat taken back concerning the attitude that many have concerning the Book of Revelation and the reign of the Messiah in the vast differences of understanding. A member of my ward asked me about a particular book published through of subsidiarity controlled by Deseret Book. The book claimed to give insights to understanding the Book of Revelation and the events of the Last Days leading up the millennium. I told them that I believe that I know much more of these things than the Book but that I really do not know anything. In other words I did not think the book helped understand anything at all and I had noting at all to add.

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we should be the first to know or understand anything concerning the "last days", the second coming of Christ and the start of the Millennium. Truly - we are the experts and should not be caught up in the confusion of the world. But I do not think even most LDS know if the end of days, the second coming of Christ and the ushering in of the Millennium will occur concurrently (same day) or at different "times" (even several years apart).

As a final note: I believe that the Brethren (First Presidency, Apostles, general authorities and others) have a very good understanding of when these things will be. Isaiah claimed to have been told "all things from the beginning to the end". I would think that the second coming of the Messiah is significant enough to qualify as one of those "all things". Amos 3:7 says in essence that G-d does not do anything unless he tell his prophets first. I do not think the second coming of the Messiah is so minor of an event to not count as something that G-d is going to do. I do not think we need pay any attention the the world's understanding of things. One think I have learned - like being in a bishopric or stake presidency that knows of divisions of wards and stakes - those that know do not say much at all - but those that do not know anything at all speculate a lot about everything to which they are also very vocal.

The Traveler

[Speakzeasy]

We have been taught that no one knows the time, not even Christ, when He will return.

I do not claim to know the time of Jesus second coming. I do wish to point out that prophecy, as it is written, points to our time. Prophecy that points to our time is a story of the Gentile nations with a common time frame as told in 1 Nephi chapter 11 through 14. The Bible prophecy points to our day with commonality of things that occur in Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi. Are we not told that:

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them . . . (D&C 93:31).

. . . I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious . . . (1 Ne. 13:34)

What is it that I am not explaining plainly? Do you see a problem with following the timeline that Nephi has set forth in his vision and applying it to Biblical prophecy? The Book of Mormon is correct, is it not? Nephi gives a great timeline that, if followed, leads right in to John's vision written in the Book of Revelation. Prophets in the Bible are consistent with their prophecies leading to our time in that they follow Nephi's timeline that leads right into John's vision as well. In fact, Daniel and John run parallel for much of their prophecies.

Without the Book of Mormon it would be impossible to understand the prophecies of the Bible. They could not be brought together in a meaningful manner.

It may take a moment to get to this explanation while interacting with people on a thread. However, the thread moves in the direction to do this.

You might read last post that I made. It was being written while you were posting your first response. You'll find that I have explained this to some extent.

If you read my post you will find that I am using prophecy from the Bible and Book of Mormon. I am not predicting anything. I refuse to go there. I do not know the future. The written prophecy is what it is and I cannot change it nor see beyond it or guess the missing details. The events spoken of in prophecy are not given with great deal. I will not fill in the gaps. I do not know how they are to come together. They simply have an order in which they occur.

To understand the prophecy one only needs to apply prophecy to history, watch while the events take place. The past prophecies are fulfilled. Current prophecy is being fulfilled. Both point to future prophecy that tells a story that points to events that are yet to occur, they are written for us to understand. This is the nature of prophecy.

To say that "no one knows the time" is a complete dismissal of prophecy from both Bible and Book of Mormon. Why bother with religion at all if you do not believe that the story as told in prophecy does not point to our day (or any given day) as if it is unknown information. Counter productive. Prophecy is useful to the understanding of all men/women who wish to understand rather then shut it off as having no value.

And, No, prophecy, as written, does not provide a month, day, year for the second coming of Jesus Christ. The prophecies simply point to events that occur leading up to the end of the earth as we understand it (only as John saw it). The second coming of Jesus Christ is simply somewhere among the last day events and has been passed by in the story. No guess as to when his second coming is.

If you are trying to associate the second coming of Jesus Christ with establishment Zion. You will not find me doing that and I cannot tell anyone that Jesus Christ second coming is when Zion is established. Everyone seems to have their own opinion about what happens when Jesus Christ comes. I cannot tell anyone when the second coming of Jesus Christ is going to be. Prophecy is silent. I will not make up that story.

[Speakzeasy]

The point being, the year or day or time shouldn't matter. We should be preparing ourselves every day.

Why did G_d leave us a written history in the form of prophecy? Was it because it was to be negated by religious men and women? Or is it to be understood and meaningful to the over all picture that G_d has for us here upon the earth? What say ye? Ignore G_ds word to man or be obedient and learn the word that G_d has given you to learn for his purposes?

Make note that I do not give a time, date for anything that is related to the second coming of Jesus, you are claiming that I have have not been reading my post.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

I make a statement in a previous post on this thread that simply says:

Will following the prophetic trail pointing us to our time provide a date that will tell us the date of Jesus second coming? No. However, it will provide a time line in which we be able to understand the events that occur to nearly the time frame of that moment.

Is the LDS Church an inspire Church? I hope so.

And with that I agree with Traveler:

As the time draws closer we should be able to narrow down the time of the return of Christ.

I looked up the churches idea of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is an interesting read. You will note that the page at lds.org does not state the there is an association to the establishment of Zion with second coming Jesus Christ. In fact it does not say anything about Zion. It simply points to more reading material.

Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Edited October 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy
changed "Are we" an inspired Church? to Is the LDS Church an inspired Church?

[pam]

I make a statement in a previous post on this thread that simply says:

Are we an inspire Church? I hope so.

And with that I agree with Traveler:

I looked up the churches idea of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is an interesting read. You will note that the page at lds.org does not state the there is an association to the establishment of Zion with second coming Jesus Christ. In fact it does not say anything about Zion. It simply points to more reading material.

Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Are we not already establishing Zion? We have been told to establish Zion where we are. In our own wards and stakes.

Now as far as the city of Zion to be built, not all will be called to join there. Saints will be needed in their respective areas to help build up Zion.

[Guest]

Why did G_d leave us a written history in the form of prophecy? Was it because it was to be negated by religious men and women? Or is it to be understood and meaningful to the over all picture that G_d has for us here upon the earth? What say ye? Ignore G_ds word to man or be obedient and learn the word that G_d has given you to learn for his purposes?

Make note that I do not give a time, date for anything that is related to the second coming of Jesus, you are claiming that I have have not been reading my post.

Faith. As we have faith in things and our faith is proven, our faith strengthens more.

[Guest]

The Bible also speaks of looking beyond the mark.

[Speakzeasy]

Are we not already establishing Zion?

According to https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-16?lang=eng President Brigham Young’s whole soul was dedicated to establishing Zion. He oversaw the gathering of nearly one hundred thousand Latter-day Saints to the valleys of the Rocky Mountains and colonized some four hundred cities and towns.

However, Joseph Smith, Jr. had a different idea of Zion:

In History of the Church, Joseph Smith observed that Zion “was the most important temporal object in view” of the early Latter-day Saints (History of the Church 1:207; hereafter HC). The founding of this millennial urban society was so important for the early Church that thousands of converts from several different countries sacrificed their homes, careers, families, native lands, comfort, health, and even their lives to realize Joseph Smith’s vision of an earthly kingdom that was, like Enoch’s primordial City of Zion, worthy to become God’s “abode forever” (Moses 7:21). So determined was this modern prophet to replicate on earth the spatial and social orders of heaven that when persecution and dissension began to frustrate Zion’s gathering, he exclaimed, “Unless Zion is built our hopes perish, our expectations fail, our prospects are blasted, our salvation withers, and God will come and smite the whole earth with a curse” (HC 2:517). https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smith-prophet-man/15-joseph-smith%E2%80%99s-concept-city-zion

Joseph we know was not able to build the Zion of his Time. Brigham Young picked it up Zion as motivation for the Saints to relocate in the West (In my view).

Which Zion is the true Zion?

Under L.D.S. doctrine, Joseph Smith, Jr.'s

So why make statements that are generalized to the location of Zion:

Our present gathering is primarily spiritual, not geographic. Christ declared that in the latter-days He would "establish [His] church," "establish [His] people," and "establish ... among them [His] Zion" (3 Nephi 21:22; 3 Nephi 20:21; 3 Nephi 21:1). As He establishes His Church in our day, people can be taught the gospel and be "brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God" (3 Nephi 20:13) without leaving their homes. In contrast to the pronouncements during the early days of the restored Church, our leaders have decreed that now the gathering should take place within each land and among every tongue. Our need to be physically near large numbers of Saints is less than it was a century ago because Church magazines and satellite transmissions bridge distance and time, creating a sense of oneness throughout the entire Church. All have access to the same keys, ordinances, doctrine, and spiritual gifts (Callister, Douglas L., "Book of Mormon Principles: The Gathering of the Lord’s Faithful," Ensign, Oct 2004, 58-59.).

Or maybe this is closer to the mark:

I want to speak more particularly this morning about this one law—the law of consecration. It is that one’s time, talents, strength, property, and money are given up to the Lord for the express purpose of building up the kingdom of God and establishing Zion on the earth. Or, as we read in Doctrine and Covenants 105:5, “Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom.” (Elder Benson - Speeches)

The Elder Benson's is the one I think applies best to current Church teachings, though Elder Callisters statement is being applied.

It does not make sense to gather people to a place to does not exist, yet. They can prepare to go some place that does not exist.

That is why Joseph Smith's Zion is the correct location, Elder Callisters statement is being applied and Elder Benson's is the ideal.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

(Here is of Elder Callisters article on the internet: https://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2004/10/book-of-mormon-principles-the-gathering-of-the-lords-faithful?lang=eng&clang=eng)

Edited October 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

Faith. As we have faith in things and our faith is proven, our faith strengthens more.

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments. (1 Ne. 4:5)

Faith is not found in isolation from the word of G_d.

[Guest]

I don't see the connection to this conversation and I don't really care enough to try. I have way too many essential things to do than sign-seek.

[Traveler]

I don't see the connection to this conversation and I don't really care enough to try. I have way too many essential things to do than sign-seek.

I find your thoughts interesting and hope to understand better. Do you believe that it is possible that recognizing a sign is both physically and spiritually different than "seeking" a sign?

The Traveler

[Guest]

Yes, I believe them to be very different. In this thread I see seeking, not recognizing.

[Traveler]

Yes, I believe them to be very different. In this thread I see seeking, not recognizing.

Is this because you believe (see) that adultery is involved?

The Traveler

[pam]

As I have posted - I believe there is a misunderstanding of scripture. As the time draws closer we should be able to narrow down the time of the return of Christ. For example at the moment that CNN informs us that two prophets are murdered in Jerusalem and left dead in the streets - I personally will know the month, day and year that Jesus will return. The Book of Revelation says that the entire world will know of this event and even celibrate. I find it most difficult that the Saints of G-d would remain ignorant of such an important development.

I don't believe there is a misunderstanding of scripture. We all know the signs and events that will lead up to the return of Christ. And yes we know that when those two prophets are left in the streets there is very very little time left.

But to try and pinpoint an exact day of His return right now is impossible.

[Guest]

Is this because you believe (see) that adultery is involved?

The Traveler

I frequently have no idea what you're talking about but I'm completely lost here. I don't recall adultery referenced anywhere in this thread. (Though I admit I've skimmed most of the teal deer posts, at best.)

[Guest]

I don't believe there is a misunderstanding of scripture. We all know the signs and events that will lead up to the return of Christ. And yes we know that when those two prophets are left in the streets there is very very little time left.

But to try and pinpoint an exact day of His return right now is impossible.

And pointless, and a distraction from doing what we should be doing and learning what we should be learning to prepare for when they actual day comes.

[skalenfehl]

I have been looking into the second coming of the Lord. Here is a short description:

A millennium is a period of 1,000 years. When we speak of “the Millennium,” we refer to the 1,000 years following the Savior's Second Coming (see Revelation 20:4; D&C 29:11). During the Millennium, “Christ will reign personally upon the earth” (Articles of Faith 1:10). (See: Millennium)

Whose calendar do we use? How do we apply the time frame for the start of the said Millennium. 87 years from now we'll look back and wonder. By our (Gregorian) calendar Adam was four thousand years before Jesus. We are now two thousand years past Jesus, plus 12. The millennium we are now in started in the year 2001 (count starts at the number one). The our current calendar millennium ends in 87 years (2101 is the next even start of a calendar millennium, 2101-3100). The Hebrew calendar would have been the 6th of Tevet, 5761 on January 1, 2001. That is 239 years difference in between the dates (6000-5761). We are waiting 239 years on the Hebrew calendar. So what is the beginning of the next millennium? What is wrong with the story? Why do we think that the Savior's Second Coming is at the beginning of a calendar millennium?

The real question is why do you think that the Savior's coming is at the beginning of a calendar millennium?

[Speakzeasy]

Yes, I believe them to be very different. In this thread I see seeking, not recognizing.

Seeking is a necessary part of the gospel:

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:16)

However, it is not the only part of the gospel. We cannot do anything to get to heaven of our self. Not one thing. We cannot be (to) spiritual. We cannot work our way to heaven. We simply do not understand how to go about getting to heaven. So God the Father provides for us that which we cannot do our self:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

And who has the Father given unto Jesus:

46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:46). (italics mine)

There nothing you and me or anyone else can do that will get us to heaven.

We must work out what we have in scripture to be worthy for the Father to draw us. However, we must also understand those things written in scripture to work them out.

Seeking an understanding of those things in scripture while we on earth.

And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved? (Mosiah 16:2)

What are ours sins? The way to know is to read the scripture. Is this what you refer to as seeking? Seeking knowledge? Looking to understand what sins are and should be repent of.

The scriptures are whole compilation, not a pick this or that story.

I can tell you what "recognizing" is based on this thread. However, it apparently is not what your looking for. I have given several solutions and some very direct pieces of information on this thread as well. So I am not sure what "recognizing" is as you want to define it to be relating to this thread.

It is interesting that even Jesus while visiting with the Nephites in the promised land refers to Isaiah:

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.

17 And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:

18 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion. (3 Nephi 16:16-18)

Here he set an example as how scripture is important to the understanding of future events.

So an explanation of what you are referring to would be interesting.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy