Physical contact in the spirit world

[claudio]

I am wondering what kind of restrictions are in place in the spirit world. I know we wont have our bodies, but I have heard of instances of spirits or angels making contact with the living world, and I wonder if we can actually impact objects and fellow spirits physically. It would be really sad I think, to have to wait who knows how long, to be able to do something like give your loved one a hug, or feel the world around you, or anything that requires touch.

[Guest]

I'm pretty certain the sensory capacity of our spirits unfettered with mortal bodies would be a thousand times better than what we know of as touch.

When my dad died, he visited my brother. The "touch" my brother felt from my dad was an all-encompassing feeling that he described as akin to the feeling he feels when he feel touched by the Holy Spirit with the added sensory of actually seeing my dad in the form of light holding his hand. He "heard" my dad in the same way he hears the Spirit. Direct communication from thought to thought that he heard with his whole being, not with his ears.

[james12]

I believe the idea that there is no contact from one being to another in the spirit world is a misnomer. In the spirit world one can touch and be touched by other spirits. However, contact between a physical body and a spirit does not occur. It seems the spirit is a more refined substance and so cannot come in contact with our more coarse bodies.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm pretty certain the sensory capacity of our spirits unfettered with mortal bodies would be a thousand times better than what we know of as touch.

When my dad died, he visited my brother. The "touch" my brother felt from my dad was an all-encompassing feeling that he described as akin to the feeling he feels when he feel touched by the Holy Spirit with the added sensory of actually seeing my dad in the form of light holding his hand. He "heard" my dad in the same way he hears the Spirit. Direct communication from thought to thought that he heard with his whole being, not with his ears.

If spirit to spirit interaction is better without the body then the question raised is what does the body add to becoming like God. There has to be something added via the body that the spirit cannot do on it's own otherwise it wouldn't be a necessary step to be like God. We know the fullness of joy can only be had when body and spirit are together. So, what is it that the perfected body adds to make the union greater than the part? (Of course, I am talking about a perfected body, not the corrupted one we have here in mortality)

The answer is not just reproduction because we know that even in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory is higher than what would have been possible without a body. There is something a perfected body adds to increase glory in a way the spirit could not do it on it's own even for those who will not be participating in eternal families.

[Traveler]

If spirit to spirit interaction is better without the body then the question raised is what does the body add to becoming like God. There has to be something added via the body that the spirit cannot do on it's own otherwise it wouldn't be a necessary step to be like God. We know the fullness of joy can only be had when body and spirit are together. So, what is it that the perfected body adds to make the union greater than the part? (Of course, I am talking about a perfected body, not the corrupted one we have here in mortality)

The answer is not just reproduction because we know that even in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory is higher than what would have been possible without a body. There is something a perfected body adds to increase glory in a way the spirit could not do it on it's own even for those who will not be participating in eternal families.

Perhaps the answer is in the act of keeping the commandments through agency.

The Traveler

[Guest]

If spirit to spirit interaction is better without the body then the question raised is what does the body add to becoming like God. There has to be something added via the body that the spirit cannot do on it's own otherwise it wouldn't be a necessary step to be like God. We know the fullness of joy can only be had when body and spirit are together. So, what is it that the perfected body adds to make the union greater than the part? (Of course, I am talking about a perfected body, not the corrupted one we have here in mortality)

The answer is not just reproduction because we know that even in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory is higher than what would have been possible without a body. There is something a perfected body adds to increase glory in a way the spirit could not do it on it's own even for those who will not be participating in eternal families.

But that's not the question. The question is the Spirit World. Which is before Resurrection. The Spirit World in my understanding from my brother's experience with my father is much better than how we know touch and hug to be in the mortal world.

Of course, the resurrection would be even better. By a millionth degree. And that's because what we "touch" share the exact same level of LOVE as we do. That, in itself, is better than the Spirit World. Not counting what it even physically feels like.

[james12]

If spirit to spirit interaction is better without the body then the question raised is what does the body add to becoming like God. There has to be something added via the body that the spirit cannot do on it's own otherwise it wouldn't be a necessary step to be like God. We know the fullness of joy can only be had when body and spirit are together. So, what is it that the perfected body adds to make the union greater than the part? (Of course, I am talking about a perfected body, not the corrupted one we have here in mortality)

The answer is not just reproduction because we know that even in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory is higher than what would have been possible without a body. There is something a perfected body adds to increase glory in a way the spirit could not do it on it's own even for those who will not be participating in eternal families.

This is a good question. There is hope for you yet SeminarySnoozer .

In a way this misunderstanding about how the spirits interact in the spirit world can cause us to not question why we are here and misinterpret why we need a body in the first place. While here in this physical wold we do not understand what we have. When we have passed on we will long for our bodies - but not because we need to touch other things.

These words are not perfect but let me see if I can explain. A body increases our capacity to feel emotion, to experience more deeply. It increase our love, our devotion, our happiness, but also magnifies our anger, our worry, our sadness, or our fear. This is the great challenge of our lives, to control this bombardment of our senses, to harness the new depth of feeling, and to cope with this new rush of emotion. Look into your heart. If you are calm you will begin to see the difference. Our spirit is not loud, not troubled like our bodies. The problem is in the rush of physical stimulus our spirit can get lost. Here is what Elder Bednar said last conference,

Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, a depth, and an intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal existence. Thus, our relationships with other people, our capacity to recognize and act in accordance with truth, and our ability to obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amplified through our physical bodies. We Believe in Being Chaste - general-conference

To control our bodies is our glory and our challenge.

[Anddenex]

I believe the idea that there is no contact from one being to another in the spirit world is a misnomer. In the spirit world one can touch and be touched by other spirits. However, contact between a physical body and a spirit does not occur. It seems the spirit is a more refined substance and so cannot come in contact with our more coarse bodies.

I am not so sure if this is true (spirits can't contact physical bodies). Joseph Smith when describing his experience before the first vision states, "the power of this enemy which had seized upon me."

An experience from my mission would tell me clearly that contact between a physical body and a spirit does occur.

However, I freely admit I do not understand the contact and how such is possible, or possibly happens in a different way.

[james12]

I am not so sure if this is true (spirits can't contact physical bodies). Joseph Smith when describing his experience before the first vision states, "the power of this enemy which had seized upon me."

An experience from my mission would tell me clearly that contact between a physical body and a spirit does occur.

However, I freely admit I do not understand the contact and how such is possible, or possibly happens in a different way.

It sounds like you had quite an experience. Here is what I understand. Joseph said, "If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him." (D&C 129:8) Wouldn't the devil as an angel of light deceive the person in shaking his hand if he could?

I do not take that term "seized" in the sense that Joseph was grabbed. The 1828 Webster's dictionary gives this interesting definition: SE'IZED, pp. Suddenly caught or grasped; taken by force; invaded suddenly; taken possession of; fastened with a cord; having possession. Here is another account by Joseph of the dark presence before the first vision:

I called on the Lord for the first time in the place above stated, or in other words, I made a fruitless attempt to pray. My tongue seemed to be swollen in my mouth, so that I could not utter. I heard a noise behind me like some one walking towards me. I strove again to pray, but could not. The noise of walking seemed to draw nearer. I sprang upon my feet and looked round, but saw no person or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking. I kneeled again, my mouth was opened and my tongue loosed. I called on the Lord in mighty prayer. A pillar of fire appeared above my head, which presently rested down upon me and filled me with unspeakable joy. (Interview, JS by Robert Matthews, Kirtland, OH, 9 Nov. 1835; handwriting of Warren Parrish; in JS, Journal, Sept. 1835–Apr. 1836, pp. 23–26; JS Collection, CHL.)

The above, seems to accord well with my experience.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not so sure if this is true (spirits can't contact physical bodies). Joseph Smith when describing his experience before the first vision states, "the power of this enemy which had seized upon me."

An experience from my mission would tell me clearly that contact between a physical body and a spirit does occur.

However, I freely admit I do not understand the contact and how such is possible, or possibly happens in a different way.

Satan has been given power to bruise our heel. He has certain influence over mortal carnal things as a result of the Fall.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is a good question. There is hope for you yet SeminarySnoozer .

In a way this misunderstanding about how the spirits interact in the spirit world can cause us to not question why we are here and misinterpret why we need a body in the first place. While here in this physical wold we do not understand what we have. When we have passed on we will long for our bodies - but not because we need to touch other things.

These words are not perfect but let me see if I can explain. A body increases our capacity to feel emotion, to experience more deeply. It increase our love, our devotion, our happiness, but also magnifies our anger, our worry, our sadness, or our fear. This is the great challenge of our lives, to control this bombardment of our senses, to harness the new depth of feeling, and to cope with this new rush of emotion. Look into your heart. If you are calm you will begin to see the difference. Our spirit is not loud, not troubled like our bodies. The problem is in the rush of physical stimulus our spirit can get lost. Here is what Elder Bednar said last conference, To control our bodies is our glory and our challenge.

It is one thing to talk about the challenge of this life and another to talk about why we need a body in the eternities to be like God. If the body only relates to the probationary period where there is a challenge and a test then there is no need to have one later. The only reason to have one later is to realize that the body adds (in a positive way) to the glory more than what the spirit is capable of on it's own.

So, there are aspects of love, devotion and happiness that the spirit alone cannot produce, that the body is generating?

I think it is a big step in understanding to say that the body contributes to emotion that is not emanating from the spirit or at least cannot be produced by the spirit alone.

Opposition allows us to choose and obey and thus receive the glory associated with that obedience while in mortality but the corruption is overcome by the resurrection. Christ overcomes all things. A perfected body is not troubled. A perfected body wont present any challenge. We seize to be a dual being upon resurrection and become one with our body. We cannot serve two masters for eternity.

[Anddenex]

It sounds like you had quite an experience. Here is what I understand. Joseph said, "If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him." (D&C 129:8) Wouldn't the devil as an angel of light deceive the person in shaking his hand if he could?

I do not take that term "seized" in the sense that Joseph was grabbed. The 1828 Webster's dictionary gives this interesting definition: SE'IZED, pp. Suddenly caught or grasped; taken by force; invaded suddenly; taken possession of; fastened with a cord; having possession. Here is another account by Joseph of the dark presence before the first vision: The above, seems to accord well with my experience.

The experience is not mine own but from a fellow missionary within my district. His description of the experience is what causes confusion with the provided statement that a spirit cannot touch flesh, or you don't feel anything.

Since that experience, I have wondered about Joseph Smith's experience ( and another experience shared from another missionary in my mission ) in the grove as well as the section testifying of how we can tell the difference between a just and unjust spirit.

Since then I have wondered if the word "feel" is specifying that we wouldn't feel flesh and bone, thus explaining that we may feel something but not flesh and bone.

This is why I openly admit, I am not familiar the touch described, or what is meant, yet power like with Joseph was definitely felt. Thus, I could be totally wrong, just trying to figure it all out. :)

[james12]

So, there are aspects of love, devotion and happiness that the spirit alone cannot produce, that the body is generating?

I think it is a big step in understanding to say that the body contributes to emotion that is not emanating from the spirit or at least cannot be produced by the spirit alone.

The body does not generate feelings, it magnifies and enhances them. Elder Bednar put it this way, "Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, a depth, and an intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate." (Things as They Really Are - Ensign June 2010 - ensign)Elder Packer said, "...our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character" (Speeches) Our body is a gift to shape our character but we must learn how to control it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The body does not generate feelings, it magnifies and enhances them. Elder Bednar put it this way, "Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, a depth, and an intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate." (Things as They Really Are - Ensign June 2010 - ensign)Elder Packer said, "...our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character" (Speeches) Our body is a gift to shape our character but we must learn how to control it.

Yes, it says that the body becomes a "foundation of our character."

Where does the "breadth, depth and intensity of experience" come from?

When one talks on the phone, the phone makes sound. The voice of the person talking could not reach the ear of the person listening naturally but with the use of the phone and the phone generating sounds one can hear the voice of someone far away. Is the sound heard from the person talking or from the phone? Yes it was initiated by the person talking but what one is hearing is not the person talking, it is the phone generating sound waves. So it is possible for the phone to generate noise.

Likewise, if the body adds anything to emotions or experiences such as despair, anger, thirst, visual information, sensory information, perceptions, hallucinations, dreams etc. then it is capable of generating them, by definition.

If we argue so strongly that it does not come from the body then I go back to the question, what is the body adding to the spirit that the spirit cannot do on its own that would give the soul glory on an eternal basis (not just through mortality)?

No unclean thing can enter the presence of God. The spirit of the Lord does not dwell in unholy temples. The body won't pose any challenge when it is perfected, sanctified and purified by the process of resurrection. It only adds something ... what does it add?

[james12]

Yes, it says that the body becomes a "foundation of our character."

Where does the "breadth, depth and intensity of experience" come from?

As we choose to face more powerful contradictions we grow. Our body here on Earth allows both the opportunity, and through it, the challenge. We have been placed here with Satan and his hosts to be tempted and tried. It is through the body that the adversary tempts us. However, for the righteous, the body is also a shield and protection. If we yield to the lusts of the flesh we are overcome and the spirit becomes subject to Satan and his hosts. But if we listen to our spirit we gain control over the body.

When one talks on the phone, the phone makes sound. The voice of the person talking could not reach the ear of the person listening naturally but with the use of the phone and the phone generating sounds one can hear the voice of someone far away. Is the sound heard from the person talking or from the phone? Yes it was initiated by the person talking but what one is hearing is not the person talking, it is the phone generating sound waves. So it is possible for the phone to generate noise.

Likewise, if the body adds anything to emotions or experiences such as despair, anger, thirst, visual information, sensory information, perceptions, hallucinations, dreams etc. then it is capable of generating them, by definition.

If we argue so strongly that it does not come from the body then I go back to the question, what is the body adding to the spirit that the spirit cannot do on its own that would give the soul glory on an eternal basis (not just through mortality)?

No unclean thing can enter the presence of God. The spirit of the Lord does not dwell in unholy temples. The body won't pose any challenge when it is perfected, sanctified and purified by the process of resurrection. It only adds something ... what does it add?

Let me give one way I believe we grow beyond this life. As we expand our capacity to love, to understand others, we grow in the Spirit and are able to bless them. Our love grows beyond our wife and children and encompasses many, many, more. The body allows us this additional growth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

As we choose to face more powerful contradictions we grow. Our body here on Earth allows both the opportunity, and through it, the challenge. We have been placed here with Satan and his hosts to be tempted and tried. It is through the body that the adversary tempts us. However, for the righteous, the body is also a shield and protection. If we yield to the lusts of the flesh we are overcome and the spirit becomes subject to Satan and his hosts. But if we listen to our spirit we gain control over the body.

Let me give one way I believe we grow beyond this life. As we expand our capacity to love, to understand others, we grow in the Spirit and are able to bless them. Our love grows beyond our wife and children and encompasses many, many, more. The body allows us this additional growth.

I agree with what you are saying here but there is no real understanding of how the body "allows us this additional growth" beyond what our spirit is capable of. All you are saying is that we are capable of more with a body. Yes, I believe that, that is a part of our beliefs. What is it about the body that makes it a necessary step to become like God that the spirit is not able to do without it? So, what I am really asking is, what are the deficiencies of the spirit? Is the spirit really capable of a limited amount of love and understand?

Are you trying to say that the body can love where the spirit can't do on it's own?

Having a car allows me to bless my family more than if I had to run all my errands on my own but my car isn't me, it isn't part of my soul or character. Just because something allows us to do something more isn't an explanation of how it is part of our character or nature. This is such a unique belief but we understand very little about it. What part of God's nature is made possible by being flesh and bones with spirit as opposed to just spirit body alone? What part of the Telestial being's nature is made possible by their flesh and bones which would not be possible without it?

[james12]

I agree with what you are saying here but there is no real understanding of how the body "allows us this additional growth" beyond what our spirit is capable of. All you are saying is that we are capable of more with a body. Yes, I believe that, that is a part of our beliefs. What is it about the body that makes it a necessary step to become like God that the spirit is not able to do without it? So, what I am really asking is, what are the deficiencies of the spirit? Is the spirit really capable of a limited amount of love and understand?

Are you trying to say that the body can love where the spirit can't do on it's own?

Having a car allows me to bless my family more than if I had to run all my errands on my own but my car isn't me, it isn't part of my soul or character. Just because something allows us to do something more isn't an explanation of how it is part of our character or nature. This is such a unique belief but we understand very little about it. What part of God's nature is made possible by being flesh and bones with spirit as opposed to just spirit body alone? What part of the Telestial being's nature is made possible by their flesh and bones which would not be possible without it?

Seminary, Of course we as spirits could love and be loved, could understand and be understood. But we clearly did not have a fullness, we were limited in our experience. D&C 93:33-34 says, "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy; and when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy." Before this earth life, we progressed for perhaps eons of time but we reached a state where further progress was limited. In order to continue our growth we needed new challenges, new experiences and new opportunities. That is exactly what the plan of salvation offered us. That is why we came here, to gain the experience we needed through a body.

Now I do not know all the limitations of a spirit, nor all the opportunities of having a body. But I know that every moment of this life is precious. Every minute here we shape our destiny. To believe otherwise is to minimize our purpose here. But not only that, to believe otherwise, is to minimize the purpose for Christ's very atonement. We read in Mark, "And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy. ...And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him" (Mark 14:33, 35). Note that here, at the end of his mortal life, Christ was amazed and fell to the ground. Neil A. Maxwell said, "He had been intellectually and otherwise prepared from ages past for this task. He is the creator of this and other worlds. He knew the plan of salvation. He knew this is what it would come to. But when it happened, it was so much worse than even He had imagined! ("A Choice Seer" Aug 1986) Even Christ learned by the things which he suffered. Just as we must. Eternal consequences face us at all times.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary, Of course we as spirits could love and be loved, could understand and be understood. But we clearly did not have a fullness, we were limited in our experience. D&C 93:33-34 says, "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy; and when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy." Before this earth life, we progressed for perhaps eons of time but we reached a state where further progress was limited. In order to continue our growth we needed new challenges, new experiences and new opportunities. That is exactly what the plan of salvation offered us. That is why we came here, to gain the experience we needed through a body.

Now I do not know all the limitations of a spirit, nor all the opportunities of having a body. But I know that every moment of this life is precious. Every minute here we shape our destiny. To believe otherwise is to minimize our purpose here. But not only that, to believe otherwise, is to minimize the purpose for Christ's very atonement. We read in Mark, "And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy. ...And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him" (Mark 14:33, 35). Note that here, at the end of his mortal life, Christ was amazed and fell to the ground. Neil A. Maxwell said, "He had been intellectually and otherwise prepared from ages past for this task. He is the creator of this and other worlds. He knew the plan of salvation. He knew this is what it would come to. But when it happened, it was so much worse than even He had imagined! ("A Choice Seer" Aug 1986) Even Christ learned by the things which he suffered. Just as we must. Eternal consequences face us at all times.

Yes, I completely agree and understand the first paragraph but that is exactly what prompts the question, what does the body add beyond this life. Why is it necessary for the person in the Telestial Kingdom to have one in order to be of that level of glory beyond what the spirit alone could provide.

In the second paragraph you are implying that the body is the source of challenge and suffering and that is how it makes us more like God. I disagree with that premise as it pertains to the eternities. Christ overcomes all. His burden is light. Perfected, sanctified bodies should have no challenge attached to them at all.

What about the child that lives 2 hours, dies and goes straight to paradise and onto the Celestial Kingdom. What "challenge" did this body have if the child had no opportunity to express free agency while under the influences of the body as she died before the age of accountability? Obviously, that aspect of the body is not the thing that makes it necessary to be combined with our spirit to make us more like God. Those souls skip over the mortal "challenge" aspect of our bodies and yet still need a perfected body in the next life.

There must be some amount of eternal joy that the body contributes that the spirit alone is not capable of. If God continues to have a body "inseparably connected" in order to be God, that implies that if He was spirit alone He could not be God. Even if He has experienced all and knows all, He still has to have His body to remain God. Even if the person in the Telestial Kingdom has gone through the first estate and the second estate experiences, she needs to keep the body to remain in that level of glory. A spirit alone cannot have the glory of the Telestial Kingdom.

One thought may be that the spirit alone is not capable (at least to a certain degree) of sharing experience - 'to put yourself in someone else' shoes' so to speak. One of the maturing things that happens by the age of 8 is one's ability to empathize. That empathy is what allows us to have charity, the pure love of Christ. A child starts out only seeing things only from their perspective. As we mature, there are parts of the brain that allow for 'putting yourself in someone else' shoes'. We, in part, know this because there are conditions like Autism in which there is an impairment of those types of social skills. Without that ability it would be hard to live a Celestial life where we are asked to love this way; "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Notice how Jesus separates out the sources of love - heart (common reference to spirit), soul (the combined spirit and body) and mind (the brain's physical anatomy - referencing input from body). Heart alone is not good enough (spirit alone is not enough). And the second commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Without empathy the second commandment is not possible. Social interactions by definition require empathy ability.

Maybe the body is the means by which we can truly share our experience one with another and not just have experience for self. After all, we believe that Christ's power rests in His ability to feel the full impact of all our experience and pay for them. We believe that He couldn't pay for them without experiencing it on some level (the method by which that was done is not understood). Possibly, He couldn't really do that without a body, a mind that has grown in stature among men.

My husband tried to comfort me as much as possible during my pregnancies (they were rough). But as much as he tried, bless his heart, he won't know really what that feels like at least while in this life. To love someone as your self, one must put their self in their shoes as much as possible, at least at a mental level. That ability will likely be magnified the more our bodies are sanctified and perfected. It may be the thing that allows us to be more connected than we could be before this life.

[Traveler]

For much of my life I have contemplated the differences between our spirit and physical self. One of the most intriguing character of spirit stuff is the extreme difficulty we have in detecting any empirical evidence that such stuff even exists. Thus we are left with primarily speculation on what spirit stuff is.

The only possibility that makes any sense to me is that spirit stuff is in essence alternate dimensional stuff. In short I speculate that spirit stuff belongs to a different time space dimensional existence. This solves many problems concerning the difficulty there is detecting (metering or measuring) anything spirit. It may surprise readers to learn that there is science trying to deal with dimension beyond this time space in which we currently exist. But such research - if you want to call it that - is pure theoretical physics.

One particular aspect of different dimensions is what can happen when different dimensional universes intersect or interact. This is what I theorize is happening when our spirit is given life in the time space we are experiencing. We become multidimensional beings capable of existing (navigating) in both universes. Being able to operate in ultra dimensions would in reality give us amazing or seemingly supernatural powers is both universes. A couple of examples: Someone in our current physical space time that had cancer - a multidimensional being could easily detect the cancer cells and remove them without any incision or disturbing any surrounding cell. In theory such a being would be able to alter DNA within the cancer cell to turn off the cancer. Another interesting aspect is that size as we understand in our dimensional space becomes an irrelevant characteristic.

As a multidimensional being has advantages in our space time so also would they have advantages in other dimensional space time. In our LDS scriptures we are told that the mastery (inseparable union or connection) of the spirit and the physical brings about the fullness of joy - something that makes a lot of sense for a multidimensional being.

The Traveler

[Archangel717]

Yes, it's going to be different, but as far as how our "spiritual bodies" are going to be, it's not that different. Contrary to what I've seen in a lot of posts... our spirits are, tangible things. As the scrips say, "matter in its purest form" Can't remember the exact verse, but it's somewhere in D&C, and perhaps the pearl.

While we cannot perceive them in our mortal form, spirits are going to be tangible.

Think of it like the light spectrum, to put this scientifically, while we can only perceive specific wavelengths, there are types of light that we cannot perceive. Does that mean that it's not there, or that it does not affect anything? Of course not.

[james12]

Fine thoughts Seminarysnoozer, let me comment on just a few points.

In the second paragraph you are implying that the body is the source of challenge and suffering and that is how it makes us more like God. I disagree with that premise as it pertains to the eternities. Christ overcomes all. His burden is light. Perfected, sanctified bodies should have no challenge attached to them at all.

No, the body is not the source of suffering. The body is simply the means through which we are exposed to suffering. Satan and his hosts are the source. I could also take this statement and reverse it. The body is not the source of happiness it is simply the means through which we are exposed to greater joy. Here are Lehi's words, "Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh" (2 Ne 2:27). Note that qualifier, "according to the flesh". If we will choose liberty and eternal life "according to the flesh" we will indeed be free. But if we choose captivity and death "according to the flesh" we will certainly be miserable.

What about the child that lives 2 hours, dies and goes straight to paradise and onto the Celestial Kingdom. What "challenge" did this body have if the child had no opportunity to express free agency while under the influences of the body as she died before the age of accountability? Obviously, that aspect of the body is not the thing that makes it necessary to be combined with our spirit to make us more like God. Those souls skip over the mortal "challenge" aspect of our bodies and yet still need a perfected body in the next life.

Challenge produces growth. While in this life, those who die two hours after being born may face very little growth. That says nothing of who they were before coming to earth and nothing of who they may become after it. The scriptures say they are saved in the Celestial kingdom, and so it is. But growth does not come without effort.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Fine thoughts Seminarysnoozer, let me comment on just a few points.

No, the body is not the source of suffering. The body is simply the means through which we are exposed to suffering. Satan and his hosts are the source. I could also take this statement and reverse it. The body is not the source of happiness it is simply the means through which we are exposed to greater joy. Here are Lehi's words, "Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh" (2 Ne 2:27). Note that qualifier, "according to the flesh". If we will choose liberty and eternal life "according to the flesh" we will indeed be free. But if we choose captivity and death "according to the flesh" we will certainly be miserable.

Challenge produces growth. While in this life, those who die two hours after being born may face very little growth. That says nothing of who they were before coming to earth and nothing of who they may become after it. The scriptures say they are saved in the Celestial kingdom, and so it is. But growth does not come without effort.

The body is more than just the "means", it is described as being part of the foundation of our character. If it was just the means for suffering and happiness then we could also say the same thing about the sun, the earth, the air, food, herbs, dirt, viruses, antibiotics, automobiles, etc. The difference is that none of those other physical things are part of the foundation of our character. The body is not just a vehicle, it adds to the soul, it adds to our character and combined with the spirit brings a fullness of joy because it is part of the foundation of our character. It is part of the nature of God. Right now we are of a dual nature. The spirit is only one part of that dual nature. The synergistic effect of the body plus the spirit could never be reached by the spirit alone because the body is not just an interface or a vehicle, it is part of the soul, thus adding to our character. It is part of the foundation of the character for the person who doesn't live in this life long enough to even remember it as well as those that find their self later in the Telestial Kingdom.

[Magen_Avot]

I relate to what Anddenex said about an experience that occurred to someone on his mission. The experience I had happened at an early age and I wrote of it in other threads. Whatever the difference a physical body makes over a spirit body in the hereafter, it is important enough that we are here to get one.

[Traveler]

The body is more than just the "means", it is described as being part of the foundation of our character. If it was just the means for suffering and happiness then we could also say the same thing about the sun, the earth, the air, food, herbs, dirt, viruses, antibiotics, automobiles, etc. The difference is that none of those other physical things are part of the foundation of our character. The body is not just a vehicle, it adds to the soul, it adds to our character and combined with the spirit brings a fullness of joy because it is part of the foundation of our character. It is part of the nature of God. Right now we are of a dual nature. The spirit is only one part of that dual nature. The synergistic effect of the body plus the spirit could never be reached by the spirit alone because the body is not just an interface or a vehicle, it is part of the soul, thus adding to our character. It is part of the foundation of the character for the person who doesn't live in this life long enough to even remember it as well as those that find their self later in the Telestial Kingdom.

One of the outstanding achievements of the 20th Century is what in engineering circles is called the "integrated circuit". This is where a single engineered electronic entity is able to perform multiple functions. Though integrated circuits has in its design multiple nature it is still by design a single integrated entity - unable to function its designed functions without the whole or all the parts.

I submit that man as an integrated entity of the physical and the spiritual is much more than the mere sum of the two parts or two natures. This is because of what we may think of in scientific terms as the integration of parts. In other words - by seeing or understanding man by the separate parts we may understand some of the degraded functions but in so doing it is impossible to comprehend (or utilize) the capability of the integrated entity.

I believe that the nature of man is in reality a single entity - that may have some "dual" (meaning spirit and physical) parts in the make up of human nature but that man is by design a fully integrated entity of those parts. I believe this is part of what D&C 93 verses 28-36 is trying to help us understand. That by focusing just on the individual natures of spirit and element you will miss the greater view of man as a fully integrated being of much greater nature than just the sum of those two parts.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

One of the outstanding achievements of the 20th Century is what in engineering circles is called the "integrated circuit". This is where a single engineered electronic entity is able to perform multiple functions. Though integrated circuits has in its design multiple nature it is still by design a single integrated entity - unable to function its designed functions without the whole or all the parts.

I submit that man as an integrated entity of the physical and the spiritual is much more than the mere sum of the two parts or two natures. This is because of what we may think of in scientific terms as the integration of parts. In other words - by seeing or understanding man by the separate parts we may understand some of the degraded functions but in so doing it is impossible to comprehend (or utilize) the capability of the integrated entity.

I believe that the nature of man is in reality a single entity - that may have some "dual" (meaning spirit and physical) parts in the make up of human nature but that man is by design a fully integrated entity of those parts. I believe this is part of what D&C 93 verses 28-36 is trying to help us understand. That by focusing just on the individual natures of spirit and element you will miss the greater view of man as a fully integrated being of much greater nature than just the sum of those two parts.

The Traveler

It is possible for a man to be completely blind to the spirit, to have no spiritual influence at all and there are spirits that exist that have no physical body. As soon as you say "man", yes man is a dual being by definition. But the amount of integration between the two parts vary from individual to individual. We currently live according to the flesh with minor glimpses of spiritual input from time to time. The spirit is quiet and hard to hear. It is only when we put off the natural man (the body part) can we really hear the spirit. The perfect union will be upon resurrection, not in this current state. We are not fully integrated. On fast Sunday, my body is not fully integrated with my spirits desire to fast, it wants to eat. The apostle's bodies were not fully integrated with their spirits that didn't want to sleep.