Sabbath Keeping - How Important is it?


Anddenex
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Lets throw a hypothetical out there then.

You're a Bishop, and you have a promising young man in your ward who has an amazing sporting talent in football but will need to compete on Sundays in order to progress through the ranks and perhaps one day make it as a professional.

What is your counsel to him regarding the sabbath day? and why?

This one is easy. I have a discussion with the parents and the young man about how the came to their decision and ask them if they feel like they made the right decision. If they say yes, I back off and do everything I can to make sure the young man is attending seminary and in frequent contact with the other young men and and young men leaders.

Again, I don't like the discussion going on here where we are making the decisions for other people about what is or isn't appropriate Sabbath activity. If we want to be leaders in the Kingdom, we need to learn how to help other people make their own decisions. Part of such leadership requires that we allow them to make those decisions even when we disagree with them. Otherwise, it isn't leadership; it's dictatorship under the guise of clergy.

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This one is easy. I have a discussion with the parents and the young man about how the came to their decision and ask them if they feel like they made the right decision. If they say yes, I back off and do everything I can to make sure the young man is attending seminary and in frequent contact with the other young men and and young men leaders.

Again, I don't like the discussion going on here where we are making the decisions for other people about what is or isn't appropriate Sabbath activity. If we want to be leaders in the Kingdom, we need to learn how to help other people make their own decisions. Part of such leadership requires that we allow them to make those decisions even when we disagree with them. Otherwise, it isn't leadership; it's dictatorship under the guise of clergy.

Well said.

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No. I don't see this within the same principle. Judging two different time periods, which would be similar to judging our day for not having animal sacrifices, although a different time period did.

Now, if a GA is called who didn't serve a mission, I think it would be a conflict, a mixed message.

Several of the current apostles didn't serve missions.

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This one is easy. I have a discussion with the parents and the young man about how the came to their decision and ask them if they feel like they made the right decision. If they say yes, I back off and do everything I can to make sure the young man is attending seminary and in frequent contact with the other young men and and young men leaders.

Again, I don't like the discussion going on here where we are making the decisions for other people about what is or isn't appropriate Sabbath activity. If we want to be leaders in the Kingdom, we need to learn how to help other people make their own decisions. Part of such leadership requires that we allow them to make those decisions even when we disagree with them. Otherwise, it isn't leadership; it's dictatorship under the guise of clergy.

I also agree with this. The bishop can only dictate so much in one's life.

I also do not like the idea of teaching the kids to compare themselves to each other that way. We should not fear "Timmy did it so it's okay" as an excuse, because Timmy's life is Timmy's life. Each kid, each person, is accountable for himself.

On another note, back to the idea if a former Sabbath-playing football star is a GA, what do we do about it now? Is the past issues of GAs our business?

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I have not read any posts since I last posted and I don't intend to, as I find these Sabbath discussions frustrating.

But I continue to wonder this....why do we apply a different (lower) standard to the commandment of keeping the Sabbath than we do to other things?

If I were to say that I am not going to pay tithes because I feel I have a darn good reason not to...such as I can't pay tithing and afford the medical treatment I so desperately need....instead of being supported in that decision as people who choose not to honor the Sabbath....because they have a "good" reason..or they prayed about it and feel God said okay (for them, but not for the rest of us, I guess)....I would get chastised and told that I am just not managing my money right or that I should just have the faith that if I pay my tithing, the money for medical treatment will magically appear, etc. But if a kid likes football, we should encourage him to ignore a commandment so that he doesn't "waste his talent"? Or simply so that he can make more money for a very limited portion of his life?

If I were to say that I had a "good reason" for breaking the Law of Chastity..again, there would be no approval. Why do we approve of people breaking the commandment of honoring the Sabbath?

Yes, we have agency, blah, blah, blah. But there is also a thing called obedience. I am told I will be blessed for being obedient and paying my tithing (and the church will take away my temple recommend if I don't), but what about being obedient to the commandment of honoring the Sabbath? Are we to only be obedient if we feel like it and we agree with what we are being asked to do? Do we only do what feels good? If I go for my recommend interviews and I am a full tithe payer but tell the bishop that instead of going to my meetings or studying my scriptures or doing my callings (or any of the many, many things you could be doing to observe the Sabbath), I am instead going shopping, hosting a Super-Bowl party, running all those errands I "didn't have time for" during the week, grading papers, doing my housework, etc.....it should all be hunky-dory, right? Because according to many of the arguments I see here, all of those things are A-okay to do on the Sabbath.

Honoring the Sabbath is not as hard...nor nearly as onerous...as some would like to believe. It's all a matter of what you WANT to do.

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There are a number of things that need to be said here.

I have not read any posts since I last posted and I don't intend to, as I find these Sabbath discussions frustrating.

But I continue to wonder this....why do we apply a different (lower) standard to the commandment of keeping the Sabbath than we do to other things?

If I were to say that I am not going to pay tithes because I feel I have a darn good reason not to...such as I can't pay tithing and afford the medical treatment I so desperately need....instead of being supported in that decision as people who choose not to honor the Sabbath....because they have a "good" reason..or they prayed about it and feel God said okay (for them, but not for the rest of us, I guess)....I would get chastised and told that I am just not managing my money right or that I should just have the faith that if I pay my tithing, the money for medical treatment will magically appear, etc. But if a kid likes football, we should encourage him to ignore a commandment so that he doesn't "waste his talent"? Or simply so that he can make more money for a very limited portion of his life?

Actually, in this situation, I would make no such chastisement. Though I might suggest that you speak with the bishop, pay your tithing, and receive Fast Offering to cover your bills. This is a clear case of when you can have the best of both worlds. But if you've explained to me your rationale and your decision, you're not going to hear me say anything more about it. (unless you ask)

If I were to say that I had a "good reason" for breaking the Law of Chastity..again, there would be no approval. Why do we approve of people breaking the commandment of honoring the Sabbath?

Again, I might not understand why you've come to the conclusion that you have "good reason." But I'm not going to argue with you about it. I will tell you (once) that I disagree, and then I'm moving on with life.

Yes, we have agency, blah, blah, blah. But there is also a thing called obedience. I am told I will be blessed for being obedient and paying my tithing (and the church will take away my temple recommend if I don't), but what about being obedient to the commandment of honoring the Sabbath? Are we to only be obedient if we feel like it and we agree with what we are being asked to do? Do we only do what feels good? If I go for my recommend interviews and I am a full tithe payer but tell the bishop that instead of going to my meetings or studying my scriptures or doing my callings (or any of the many, many things you could be doing to observe the Sabbath), I am instead going shopping, hosting a Super-Bowl party, running all those errands I "didn't have time for" during the week, grading papers, doing my housework, etc.....it should all be hunky-dory, right? Because according to many of the arguments I see here, all of those things are A-okay to do on the Sabbath.

Honoring the Sabbath is not as hard...nor nearly as onerous...as some would like to believe. It's all a matter of what you WANT to do.

The big thing about your comments that is troubling is that you are conflating tolerance of people's choices--or acceptance of those people--as approval of their decisions. I, for one, have tried hard not to make valuative judgments about anyone's decisions. it isn't my place.

I don't think we should encourage little Timmy to play sports on the sabbath because he has a talent. I also don't think we should tell him he must absolutely not pursue that talent if it means playing on the Sabbath. I think we should do our best to help Timmy and his family understand the risks and benefits of the options and then support them when they make a prayerful choice.

The exception that I will give as to when it is appropriate for us to make valuative judgments is when we are in the role of a Judge in Israel. If I am your bishop and you come and tell me you felt inspired to break the law of chastity, I am not going to renew your temple recommend unless I get a witness that God did indeed intend for you to do that. As a bishop, I wouldn't have renewed Nephi's temple recommend unless I received a strong witness that the Lord had commanded him to murder Laban.

But I can see circumstances in which I would still permit Timmy to hold a temple recommend. Possibly if he says he chose to pursue this talent because he felt the only chance his family would be able to pay for his college education was if he got a scholarship--and he made significant efforts to make it to seminary every day, attend firesisdes, and do his home teaching. But if he chose to play on Sunday and ignored all those other responsibilities, I might not be so willing to give him the temple recommend.

But I can't say for sure, because every case is going to be different and a Judge in Israel should judge every case individually.

As for us, we have no business casting these sweeping declarations of who fails to live up to the Lord's standards and who doesn't. It's beyond our authority, makes us look petty, and throws up divisions between the saints that are counterproductive to building the Kingdom of God.

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I have not read any posts since I last posted and I don't intend to, as I find these Sabbath discussions frustrating.

But I continue to wonder this....why do we apply a different (lower) standard to the commandment of keeping the Sabbath than we do to other things?

If I were to say that I am not going to pay tithes because I feel I have a darn good reason not to...such as I can't pay tithing and afford the medical treatment I so desperately need....instead of being supported in that decision as people who choose not to honor the Sabbath....because they have a "good" reason..or they prayed about it and feel God said okay (for them, but not for the rest of us, I guess)....I would get chastised and told that I am just not managing my money right or that I should just have the faith that if I pay my tithing, the money for medical treatment will magically appear, etc. But if a kid likes football, we should encourage him to ignore a commandment so that he doesn't "waste his talent"? Or simply so that he can make more money for a very limited portion of his life?

There is no different standard to the commandment of keeping the Sabbath as compared to tithing as compared to the Word of Wisdom.

Tithing is pretty straightforward. 10% of increase. You decide what increase means to you. You don't pay 10%, you did not fulfill the commandment. Easy.

Sabbath is pretty straightforward as well. Dedicate a day to God. You decide what dedicate means to you. If you did not dedicate the day to God, you did not fulfill the commandment. Easy.

Word of Wisdom is pretty straightforward on specific items - don't drink coffee or tea, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke. Be healthy. You do the opposite, you did not fulfill the commandment. Easy.

Just like tithing doesn't tell you what constitutes an increase outside of a paycheck (not everybody's increase is in the form of a paycheck), Sabbath dedication does not tell you what constitutes dedication outside of doing your best to attending sacrament meeting and not do anything that prevents others from keeping the Sabbath. And Word of Wisdom doesn't tell you how many slices of pizza is deemed healthy.

Unlike the Word of Wisdom commandment to not drink alcohol, Keeping the Sabbath Holy does not tell you in a blanket statement not to work on Sunday or play professional football (if such is the nature of your work) on Sunday. Basically, you can lose your temple recommend if you drink alcohol but you may still keep your recommend if you work on Sunday, or even if you miss sacrament meeting.

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Another obvious example about Sabbath and intentions:A soldier gets shot at or pulls duties on Sundays the same as any other day, to protect you! He is prepared to give his life for you if necessary. As one provocative email which made the rounds said “the only other person willing to do that for you is Jesus Christ” He or any right minded LDS Christian does not stop ministry or his mission on the Sabbath day. God judges hearts, intentions, sincerity, and personal motivations much more than “rules.” Maybe it requires life and death extreme experiences and situations to learn something about priorities. One combat wounded LDS soldier bore his testimony to me as he was dying because he gave his life for his country, freedoms, church and family. The fact that he smoked a cigarette occasionally, seemed terribly insignificant. Work (and service) on Sunday for the right reasons is honorable, NOT a violation of commandment.

“When you are in the service of your fellow man you are only in service of your God”…. except on the Sunday?? (Mosiah 2:17)

One of the first things Adam learned in Garden of Eden was he had to break one commandment (fruit) in order to follow a greater, more important commandment (follow Eve out of garden to multiply).

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I have not read any posts since I last posted and I don't intend to, as I find these Sabbath discussions frustrating.

But I continue to wonder this....why do we apply a different (lower) standard to the commandment of keeping the Sabbath than we do to other things?

If I were to say that I am not going to pay tithes because I feel I have a darn good reason not to...such as I can't pay tithing and afford the medical treatment I so desperately need....instead of being supported in that decision as people who choose not to honor the Sabbath....because they have a "good" reason..or they prayed about it and feel God said okay (for them, but not for the rest of us, I guess)....I would get chastised and told that I am just not managing my money right or that I should just have the faith that if I pay my tithing, the money for medical treatment will magically appear, etc. But if a kid likes football, we should encourage him to ignore a commandment so that he doesn't "waste his talent"? Or simply so that he can make more money for a very limited portion of his life?

If I were to say that I had a "good reason" for breaking the Law of Chastity..again, there would be no approval. Why do we approve of people breaking the commandment of honoring the Sabbath?

Yes, we have agency, blah, blah, blah. But there is also a thing called obedience. I am told I will be blessed for being obedient and paying my tithing (and the church will take away my temple recommend if I don't), but what about being obedient to the commandment of honoring the Sabbath? Are we to only be obedient if we feel like it and we agree with what we are being asked to do? Do we only do what feels good? If I go for my recommend interviews and I am a full tithe payer but tell the bishop that instead of going to my meetings or studying my scriptures or doing my callings (or any of the many, many things you could be doing to observe the Sabbath), I am instead going shopping, hosting a Super-Bowl party, running all those errands I "didn't have time for" during the week, grading papers, doing my housework, etc.....it should all be hunky-dory, right? Because according to many of the arguments I see here, all of those things are A-okay to do on the Sabbath.

Honoring the Sabbath is not as hard...nor nearly as onerous...as some would like to believe. It's all a matter of what you WANT to do.

Thank you Leah.

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Hey pam, such that this conversation doesn't turn into more than it should would you please close the thread.

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments, and I appreciate your willingness to enter into a difficult, but sincere, question from my own heart.

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I can't say I've ever encountered anyone where this is literally the case.

(staring into space on the Sabbath)

The difference is if they have other people around. I could see having kids' activities, watching LDS movies or BYU television, etc., but when you are the only one, yes, I could well end up sitting and staring into space after church. Even if I had the missionaries over every Sunday for dinner, that's still a small part of the day.

AND, what's this stuff about it's a day of rest for everyone but mom?? Why should I make a fancy Sunday dinner where I do all the work and the menfolk just stroll into the the dining room and eat? What's that about? :mad:

I'm not saying I should shop on Sunday, but I don't see what's wrong with a movie. With everyone paired up or in young families, there just isn't any one for me to hang with - for hours at a time - on Sunday. I'm very curious as to what older singles do. There aren't any grand kids, my son's not a member, no one's going to sit with me and scrapbook pics from the latest RS activity, I'm usually scheduled to teach the next day and I need to prep for class. I really am at a loss as to how to act on the Sabbath other than what I do now.

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The difference is if they have other people around. I could see having kids' activities, watching LDS movies or BYU television, etc., but when you are the only one, yes, I could well end up sitting and staring into space after church. Even if I had the missionaries over every Sunday for dinner, that's still a small part of the day.

Reading, watching spiritual videos, visiting others, going on a walk to ponder and enjoy nature, these things are not staring into space. Staring into space implies mental inactivity. I can understand if certain things don't particularly appeal to you, but that isn't the same thing as, 'keeping the Sabbath* means staring into space'.

*Which really, is rather loosely defined as a conversational term.

AND, what's this stuff about it's a day of rest for everyone but mom?

I don't know, what is it? Do you have a link to scriptures, manuals, or general conference talks teaching this principle?

Why should I make a fancy Sunday dinner where I do all the work and the menfolk just stroll into the the dining room and eat?

You don't have to. Well, that was easy. Crockpot dinners were a Sunday staple for me when I was living at home, it's little work to throw a roast, some potatoes, and some carrots in a crock pot, and Mom wasn't the only one doing it. She also wasn't the one washing all the dishes (the dishes situation was even the case during the week).

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I find this thread suddenly timely because my husband got a job today. We sooo hope this is not his career job (he only graduated this spring and then spent the summer doing army training) but it's nice to have income and something to do (he was very distressed just last night about being a horrible provider.

Problem is... there were no schedules where Sunday was free, at least not until his training is through.

I'm torn. Part of me wishes he could have a non-working Sunday, but I'm also grateful for a job.

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Honoring the Sabbath is not as hard...nor nearly as onerous...as some would like to believe. It's all a matter of what you WANT to do.

I think this is the money quote, right here.

It isn't necessarily that you have to observe Sabbath on Sunday--for example, I'm told that at BYU-Jerusalem the Sabbath is observed on Saturday in keeping with local tradition.

But if there isn't even a desire for the blessings of the Sabbath, and maybe a sincere effort to designate some day during the week and, on that day, forego typical workweek activities as part of that observance--I think that's a problem.

And of course, I've no right to judge anyone's heart. But I would note, anecdotally, that million-dollar decisions tend to make the heart flutter just a bit; and I would hope someone would consider getting some neutral perspective from a bishop while making that kind of decision.

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My primary issue with how Mormons keep the Sabbath is just sitting around staring into space. Especially as a single person with no little kids, this is just boring and not a good use of my time. We've talked about this here before. I go to church, I avoid the store, etc. on the Sabbath, but I have no problem going to a museum or gallery on Sunday. Sorry. I think I can be observant and get some culture on the same day. Also, I am not going to make my son miss a prime opportunity for treating his mother by telling him he can't buy me a restaurant dinner on Mother's Day. Shoot me.

OTOH, by doing those things, you force someone else to violate the Sabbath and possibly miss out on worship because they have to be on the job to satisfy your desires.

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