An appeal to fellow pet enthusiasts...

[Guest]

I just heard that another city in Canada is trying to pass a ban on all pet snakes. The reason was, they're getting too many complaints from people who see people holding their snakes in the park causing a public disturbance. This makes me sad because they already did that here in Florida. But at least, Florida didn't put a ban on all snakes, just certain ones, so we got to keep ours.

So, I'm posting this here just to send out an appeal to my fellow animal enthusiasts to spend just 5 minutes when you go to a PetSmart or any of those big box pet stores and check out the pet snakes they have there. Or just spend 5 minutes browsing through literature about the pet snake hobby. It would be even better if you would just ask somebody at the store to take them out so you can touch them. They don't bite... or, rather, they only bite as much as a dog. And they have much smaller teeth than dogs! So, if you are comfortable petting someone else's dog in PetSmart, you're going to be just fine holding the pet snake for even just 30 seconds.

We are a very misunderstood community and the only way we can keep our pets is if a majority of people go out of their way to try to understand what we find special about our pets because we are very easy targets for pets-are-slaves organizations. Anybody with an agenda can easily go to State and Federal government and spread some fear to get a ban because not many people will care about it. People, especially Christians, are predisposed to fearing snakes because of the serpent in the garden of Eden. We try to fight it but we are a small community against a lot of you so we are at a very big disadvantage in the democratic process.

All we really need is for you guys to understand us. You don't have to like snakes although it would be super if you would!

Okay, I'm open to questions on this thread if you have any.

[NeuroTypical]

they're getting too many complaints from people who see people holding their snakes in the park causing a public disturbance.

If holding a snake in a park causes a public disturbance, there's not a problem with the snake, there's a problem with the public.

The next snake I see in public, I'll make sure I go up and say hi to the owner. And bring my daughters along too.

[Guest]

Oh! I didn't even think that we may have some fellow Canadians here who can directly help! Here's the news clipping I saw:

Council wants rid of exotic pets | Your online newspaper for North Bay, Ontario

Quote:

STURGEON FALLS – Snakes and other critters will soon no longer be welcome in homes within West Nipissing.

An exotic pet bylaw is expected to be on the council agenda next month, but the debate around the table so far has been unanimously in favour of banning any exotic creatures from taking up residence.

“We need to go ahead with this full force,” said Coun. Denise Brisson during the Oct. 8 Committee of the Whole meeting. “We need to follow what our constituents want and the sooner the better.”

During the Sept. 10 committee meeting councillors were adamant they wanted the bylaw as restrictive as possible. “If it’s not an ordinary pet to our area, than I say no,” said Brisson, backed up by Coun. Normand Roberge who said the proposed bylaw “should be 100 percent restrictive. We don’t want any (exotic animals) in the municipality, period.”

While council would like to see the bylaw on the table as soon as possible, CAO Jay Barbeau cautions getting the enforcement aspect right may take a little time.

“Council’s wish is clear and unanimous,” he said during last week’s meeting. “But staff has to work to ensure our bylaw wording doesn’t make it unenforceable.”

He also pointed out the bylaw was not a proactive law, but “issues and response” based and that powers of entry by bylaw enforcement officers was a question yet to be answered.

“The intent is not to go door-to-door asking, do you have a big snake,” Barbeau said.

But Brisson stressed the municipality had to be reactive. “If you see someone walking down the street with a snake it would be pretty easy to follow them (home),” she said.

Could you imagine if someone would say publicly, "If you see someone walking down the street with a dog, it would be pretty easy to follow them..."

This was like a fist right to my gut. We have ball pythons.

[Dreams_Of_Deutschland]

It sounds similar to the "Vicious Dog List" that includes Labrador's and Golden Retrievers...really?

I have a German Shepherd and she causes people to switch sides of the street. She is a sweetheart and would never bite anyone. She loves kids, and is very loyal. Unfortunately, like snakes, its the visual that causes the problem, not any real knowledge.

[Bini]

I have a German Shepherd and she causes people to switch sides of the street. She is a sweetheart and would never bite anyone. She loves kids, and is very loyal.

I don't care what dog breed it is. If I don't know the animal, I will use caution when around it, that means moving to the other side of the street with my two-year old if I feel it necessary. You just can't take offense to it as a pet owner.

We have three dogs and two are French Bulldogs - very gently and playful and wouldn't hurt a fly. Then we have a Chihuahua that would rip you apart if she were 60lbs bigger but she only weighs like 4lbs. Anyway, I know that some people will be uncomfortable around our bulldogs and think that our little dog is the 'safe' one. It just is what it is. I just can't take personal offense to that.

Anatess, good luck!

[mnn727]

Sorry - snake hater here. Can't imagine why anyone would want one for a pet other than for the shock value.

[Windseeker]

[Guest]

Sorry - snake hater here. Can't imagine why anyone would want one for a pet other than for the shock value.

Why do you think that? What is different about a goldfish from a snake that makes one okay to have in the house while the other one is "just for shock value"?

[Traveler]

I hope I do no upset any good and kind person. I happen to love animals - but mostly in their natural environment. I have problems with people that force their pets into unnatural environments for their personal desires and pleasures. There are pets (especially dogs) that develop affections for their owners - which I believe to generally be a good thing - but sometimes I see this going overboard forcing pets into very unnatural circumstances for the animal. I am not a fan of zoos and keeping (forcing) wild animals into captivity.

While backpacking - one early morning sitting on the ground in front of my little tent cooking breakfast a cow moose and her calf wandered into my camp. I just sat there at my camp stove and watched. The calf came over and sniffed at me - allowing me to pet its nose. The mother not to be outdone by her calf also came over and allowed me to pet her nose.

I have had wolves and a cougar wander into my camp but never have they come closer than about 10 feet. They just seem to be curious about who I am - this type of thing only happens when I am by myself. One thing I have learned - never ever touch a swan no matter how close they come. They seem to like to be around but for whatever reason they do not like to be touched at all and have a very aggressive way of letting you know.

Most snakes I have encountered do not seem to like humans at all and do not seem to want to share any space - either they want me to leave or want to get away themselves. Not sure why? Most likely their instinct - and I have a lot of respect for an animal's instinct. I try to read and respect an animal's instinct - even if the animal is someone's pet.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I hope I do no upset any good and kind person. I happen to love animals - but mostly in their natural environment. I have problems with people that force their pets into unnatural environments for their personal desires and pleasures. There are pets (especially dogs) that develop affections for their owners - which I believe to generally be a good thing - but sometimes I see this going overboard forcing pets into very unnatural circumstances for the animal. I am not a fan of zoos and keeping (forcing) wild animals into captivity.

While backpacking - one early morning sitting on the ground in front of my little tent cooking breakfast a cow moose and her calf wandered into my camp. I just sat there at my camp stove and watched. The calf came over and sniffed at me - allowing me to pet its nose. The mother not to be outdone by her calf also came over and allowed me to pet her nose.

I have had wolves and a cougar wander into my camp but never have they come closer than about 10 feet. They just seem to be curious about who I am - this type of thing only happens when I am by myself. One thing I have learned - never ever touch a swan no matter how close they come. They seem to like to be around but for whatever reason they do not like to be touched at all and have a very aggressive way of letting you know.

Most snakes I have encountered do not seem to like humans at all and do not seem to want to share any space - either they want me to leave or want to get away themselves. Not sure why? Most likely their instinct - and I have a lot of respect for an animal's instinct. I try to read and respect an animal's instinct - even if the animal is someone's pet.

The Traveler

Sure. There is something to be said about leaving an animal in its own natural habitat. But, were it not for the captive programs, we urban people, will not hold the same appreciation and respect for these creatures because, frankly, there is just not enough people scouring the wilds of Africa having first contact with ball pythons. And you don't want them there anyway, as they would upset the natural environment.

Captive programs are just that. They preserve the natural environment and leave them undisturbed in that natural state so that all learning comes from captive-bred specimens.

My children can tell you all about the cool things a snake does and what keeps them healthy (and gouramis and map turtles and parakeets and leopard geckos and amazon parrots and dogs) because they live with them and are responsible for their care. These children are growing up with deep appreciation and love for these animals. And these children will grow up to be the front liners in the fight to protect the natural habitats of these creatures that they love because it is personal to them.

About 2 years ago, my kids came home crying. The neighbor chopped off the head of this red-banded water snake (non-venomous) beyond our fence. This snake has been living under the bush in our fence line and hangs out in the drain pipe to the lake to find food. He's been there for 2 years and the kids have named him Red. We don't see him much. Mostly, we see him when my husband goes to trim the bush. My kids pass by that drain pipe when they go roam the neighborhood and they would check to see if he's there. It's a treat when the kids see him because it is a rare occurrence. They were 5 and 7 year olds when they named Red. They were 7 and 9 year olds when this teen-ager in our neighborhood saw Red in the drain pipe, ran to his house (4 houses down), grabbed a shovel, and chopped off Red's head. My children were devastated and lamenting the cruelty of humans.

That, Traveler, is something my kids will never do because they have a personal relationship with these guys. And that's something their friends who are constantly in my house (some of them come to the house because of the pets!) will not do.

And about that unnatural habitat. It is unnatural for a dog to be confined in a yard. It is unnatural for a dog to have a human pack. But what we do is provide the best environment for them that mimics their natural habitat. So that, we replace their pack with humans and feed them kibble (well, my dogs don't eat kibble but that's for another discussion). We do the same for the snakes, the gecko, the turtles, the fish, the parakeets, the amazon. What is terrible is when you put a reptile in an environment without temperature gradients. Or feed a cat vegetables. We are 100% responsible for the health and well-being of these guys. It is on our heads to provide the proper care for them. And the first step to that is knowing what these guys need in nature.

Edited October 24, 2013 by anatess

[NeuroTypical]

The thing that gets me, is that not only do animals have personalities, they can also have character flaws. Some might call this anthropomorphism - but I'm thinking these are attributes that animals share with humans, not just human attributes we like to pretend exist in other animals. They can be mean, or clingy, or mischievous, be bullies or kind, or overly melodramatic, they can experience personality-changing traumas, gain both desirable and undesirable habits, etc.

For example, just about every goose out there knows how to bluff - how to act like they're bigger, tougher, or more important than they really are.

I don't like geese, and whenever they come around me, I let them know it.

It is unnatural for a dog to have a human pack. But what we do is provide the best environment for them that mimics their natural habitat.

Believing what I believe about why this earth and everything on it was created, I'm not sure human-animal interaction and bonding is unnatural at all. Dogs seem to fit very well into human families, seeing the family as their pack. Problems arise when the humans don't understand how a pack works, and the dog ends up thinking it's in charge.

But yes, I understand and agree with much of what Traveler is saying. Many animals just aren't meant to be enclosed, or around humans.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Guest]

The thing that gets me, is that not only do animals have personalities, they can also have character flaws. Some might call this anthropomorphism - but I'm thinking these are attributes that animals share with humans, not just human attributes we like to pretend exist in other animals. They can be mean, or clingy, or mischievous, be bullies or kind, or overly melodramatic, they can experience personality-changing traumas, gain both desirable and undesirable habits, etc.

For example, just about every goose out there knows how to bluff - how to act like they're bigger, tougher, or more important than they really are.

I don't like geese, and whenever they come around me, I let them know it.

You are absolutely right! There are behaviors inherent to each individual. And it is clearly displayed in our house. A fish for example has a brain so small that what you observe to be their behavior is mostly instinctive. We used to have discus fish and one would interact with me through the tank. He would follow me when I pass by, make kissy faces, etc. The other one could care less.

The snakes all have different personalities. We have one ball python that is a diva - that one in the picture. We have one ball python that will strike first and ask questions later. She's the bully. We have another one that is so chill that when you hold him he'll go crawl inside your shirt to find a warm spot and curl up.

And then we have a western hognose... that guy is the clown. I tell ya, he is hilarious! The first few weeks after we got him, he was stressed (new environment does that) so when we come close he would periscope and spread his neck like a cobra and make this sound like a rattle in a rattlesnake! My kids would try to pick him up anyway (gotta clean the tank, ya know!) and he would strike! I mean, just like a cobra! But, he would strike with his pointy nose - mouth closed, so it doesn't do anything but scare the behemoth out of ya! My kids knew hognoses are prone to do this though (I insist on them researching these creatures before they take them home) so they know it's not big deal. So then they would still try to pick him up and I kid you not, this snake will roll over and play dead! It was quite a sight to see! No kidding - he would belly-up, writhe like he's dying, then stay still with his tongue hanging out!!! It was super amazing! So finally, because the snake is acting dead, the kids would finally get to pick him up (still dead) and move him to the cleaning bin where he would miraculously revive...

Then we got this African Gray... and he's a hoot too. He used to be near the landline phone and when he gets lonely he would "ring the phone". It sounds EXACTLY like the phone so we come to pick up the phone and realize it's Neo not the phone and he would start talking and flapping his wings so we play with him a while. Well, everytime we are on our way out the door, he would ring the the phone! We finally figured out how to tell it's Neo instead of the phone - we would wait a couple more rings and if the ringing is evenly spaced out it's the phone, if the space between rings is not constant it's Neo...

Then we got this Amazon... and boy, he is his own person too. Every sunrise... doesn't matter if it's DST or not... he would wake up and call my kids by their names. He's our "alarm clock". And man, that bird is so into my husband that I have a scar on my cheek from him biting me. He was perched on my shoulder, my husband came home, and usually, I would go meet him for a kiss at which time the bird would move to my husband. But this time, I had soapy hands so I wanted to finish all the dishes before I greet my husband... well, the bird didn't want any of that so he bit me on the cheek! Hurt like the dickens!

I can go on and on and on about this... and I haven't even talked about the dogs... :)

Edited October 24, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

Many animals just aren't meant to be enclosed, or around humans.

Depends on the enclosure... you can't put a giraffe in a house. Around humans... well, I don't see why not when God put us in charge of all of them. Of course, we can't survive under water to be with great sharks, but if man doesn't spend time with great sharks, it will be difficult for him to know how to be in charge of them.

[Windseeker]

Like Traveler, I find the experience of coming in contact with these animals in their natural habitat so much more fulfilling than seeing them in captivity. For instance two weeks ago I was diving off of Pompano Beach and saw a Sea Turtle. It was awesome and so much better than seeing them at Gumbo Limbo (where they revive injured turtles).

But I can't say that your snakes are not fulfilling the measure of their creation.

I think the primary purposes for animals are to provide food, companionship, enhance our experience on this earth, to teach us, as a testament of a creator (not necessarily in order).

I think if you and your family take joy in caring for these creatures then that's awesome.

[NeuroTypical]

Along these lines - something that may disturb some folks - cows exhibit personalities too. In any given herd, you can have prankster cows and snuggly cows and mean cows and 'fraidy cows and hypochondriac cows. Then they go get ground into hamburger and we toss them down our well-muscled throats without a second thought. Same reality with pigs and chickens and sheep and any other critters we eat, to whatever extent their life allows such complexity.

I can see why people come to such realizations and turn vegetarian. I came to these realizations about 4 years ago, and remain a carnivore, although one who thinks more somber thoughts about righteous stewardship.

(Also, after owning and slaughtering chickens, I'm mostly convinced that the measure of their creation includes being eaten, and to refuse to do so, is almost an affront to their existence.)

[Guest]

(also, after owning and slaughtering chickens, i'm mostly convinced that the measure of their creation includes being eaten, and to refuse to do so, is almost an affront to their existence.)

.

[Quin]

While I agree with you completely... I also rather suspect that they're doing this as a reaction to someone (or group of someone's) being a public menace/nusiance.

Case in point... There was a woman near me who kept letting her ocelots and panthers get out. Seriously. "Missing Ocelot" posters would go up. Now... I know a LOT of people wi tamed big cats. But this woman was being completely irresponsible. So the town I lived in wrote up a law that made it legal for them to confiscate and donate ANY pet found not under the immediate control of its owner (formerly, leash laws only came attached with fines, and the "pound" was required to return animals to their owners if them came t collect them. In ACTUALITY, that's exactly what still happened after the new law was placed... To everyone who lost their birds, cats, dogs, snakes, ferrets, etc. But when a panther was found in the grocery store... The town collected it and donated it to the zoo. When formerly, they would have had to return it to Flakey McFlakerson and her house of no consequences.

So I would BET that the city has been having problems wih people being deliberately menacing with their snakes in public places. And since there's no law against frightening someone with a nonviolent pet (or carrot, or dandelion)... They're making a law. Becuase until there's a law in place, that person can go to court and say "I have no IDEA why this person would be afraid of my carrot/ dandelion/ etc. Clearly, it's nonvenomous, it was always literally in my hands/never out of my control, and I never even got in spitting distance of them." When what the police are being called to is a scene where a man/woman has been getting off on making people fear for their safety by being threatening.

Another snake lover, here, by the by.

Or liker, maybe.

As I don't keep any (my cousin the large animal vet has a few that can actually EAT large animals, though!)

But I do think theyre pretty awesome.

I also think ocelots are amazing.

Just not in the community pool, tracking kids on swings like a house cat with swallows, or hogging the fruity pebbles at the grocery store.

When people are not being responsible pet owners, I DO want there to be laws in place to manage that. I don't know if this is the case in Ontario, but I'd bet brownies (ya know I'm serious if I've upgrade from chocolate chip cookies to brownies) that's what up.

[Guest]

While I agree with you completely... I also rather suspect that they're doing this as a reaction to someone (or group of someone's) being a public menace/nusiance.

Case in point... There was a woman near me who kept letting her ocelots and panthers get out. Seriously. "Missing Ocelot" posters would go up. Now... I know a LOT of people wi tamed big cats. But this woman was being completely irresponsible. So the town I lived in wrote up a law that made it legal for them to confiscate and donate ANY pet found not under the immediate control of its owner (formerly, leash laws only came attached with fines, and the "pound" was required to return animals to their owners if them came t collect them. In ACTUALITY, that's exactly what still happened after the new law was placed... To everyone who lost their birds, cats, dogs, snakes, ferrets, etc. But when a panther was found in the grocery store... The town collected it and donated it to the zoo. When formerly, they would have had to return it to Flakey McFlakerson and her house of no consequences.

So I would BET that the city has been having problems wih people being deliberately menacing with their snakes in public places. And since there's no law against frightening someone with a nonviolent pet (or carrot, or dandelion)... They're making a law. Becuase until there's a law in place, that person can go to court and say "I have no IDEA why this person would be afraid of my carrot/ dandelion/ etc. Clearly, it's nonvenomous, it was always literally in my hands/never out of my control, and I never even got in spitting distance of them." When what the police are being called to is a scene where a man/woman has been getting off on making people fear for their safety by being threatening.

Another snake lover, here, by the by.

Or liker, maybe.

As I don't keep any (my cousin the large animal vet has a few that can actually EAT large animals, though!)

But I do think theyre pretty awesome.

I also think ocelots are amazing.

Just not in the community pool, tracking kids on swings like a house cat with swallows, or hogging the fruity pebbles at the grocery store.

When people are not being responsible pet owners, I DO want there to be laws in place to manage that. I don't know if this is the case in Ontario, but I'd bet brownies (ya know I'm serious if I've upgrade from chocolate chip cookies to brownies) that's what up.

Yes, I agree that the stupid few make it difficult for the responsible many... But banning is not the answer. It's giving a license for the tail to wag the dog.

[Churchmouse]

It's not just exotic pers that are in trouble. In our county seat they put a ban on owning a Pit Bull. What shocked me was even if you already had the dog with no reports of trouble, it still had to go. One man had his dog for six years. No only was there no problems, the neighborhood children played with him daily. It still had to go. I wonder if that would survive a court challenge if someone had the money to fight.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Exotic pets need to be banned, as they are usually an invasive species and more often than not, the pet owners are irresponsible and let them loose within the environment, creating havoc.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[Guest]

Exotic pets need to be banned, as they are usually an invasive species and more often than not, the pet owners are irresponsible and let them lose within the environment, creating havoc.

Let's ban cats too. They are just as invasive as exotics and feral cats are disease carriers that affect humans. At least reptilian species don't have much common diseases with humans.

Let's ban dogs too. They are just as taxing to government resources having to put up with abandoned dogs in dog shelters because pet owners are too irresponsible to realize that little cuddly Fido actually require money to feed.

Let's ban fish too. Lionfish is invading the Keys and fish, fresh or salt species, are just as invasive to local ponds and rivers.

Oh.. let's ban humans too. There is nothing more invasive than hungry children. And you know there are those that would just dump babies in the public dumpsters.

C'mon. Really? You're going to ban pet ownership because I, as a parent of an exotic pet, am too stupid not to dump it in the surrounding environment?

See... this is the fight I have to fight every single day. But I'm usually more politically correct when talking to a crowd.

Edited October 29, 2013 by anatess

[Praetorian_Brow]

You just compared human babies to snakes, well done. Very peculiar to coddle the Biblical manifestation of Satan, as of course, we need to bring scripture into it, as that is the only acceptable proof within the confines of this forum.

Whatever emotional attachment you have to the snakes is your business and obviously my statement garnered an immediate maternal emotional defensive reaction, which is intriguing and a bit alarming as it seems a tad...out there. I highly doubt they return the sentiment, no matter your rationalization.

I used to work with someone who owned a snake and put hand lotion on the snake, to make its skin supple. Very odd.

There is a massive difference between a domesticated species and some animal picked up for aesthetic or hipster reasons.

No matter the fear of your slithering children being taken, I still don't think it justifies exotic pet ownership. My stance on the subject remains, ban them.

[Guest]

You just compared human babies to snakes, well done. Very peculiar to coddle the Biblical manifestation of Satan, as of course, we need to bring scripture into it, as that is the only acceptable proof within the confines of this forum.

Whatever emotional attachment you have to the snakes is your business and obviously my statement garnered an immediate maternal emotional defensive reaction, which is intriguing and a bit alarming as it seems a tad...out there. I highly doubt they return the sentiment, no matter your rationalization.

I used to work with someone who owned a snake and put hand lotion on the snake, to make its skin supple. Very odd.

There is a massive difference between a domesticated species and some animal picked up for aesthetic or hipster reasons.

No matter the fear of your slithering children being taken, I still don't think it justifies exotic pet ownership. My stance on the subject remains, ban them.

Maternal emotional defensive reaction? No sir. Disdain for illogical arguments? Definitely Yes.

You said - let's ban exotic pet ownership because they're an invasive species. That reasoning is illogical. As illogical as banning all kinds of fish because lionfish is invading the Keys and as illogical as banning children because mothers dump babies in dumpsters.

The Western Hognose, the Corsnake, Ratsnake, the Kingsnake, Milksnake, many types of frogs, turtles, etc, are all native to where I live. They are popular "Exotic pets". A ban because it is invasive does not apply.

I'm not sure I understand the phrase "fear of your slithering children being taken". But yes, I am perfectly aware reptiles don't have the same emotional responses as dogs. But then neither do cats. Nor fish. That doesn't make it odd to have an aquarium even if fish is incapable of returning the sentiment.

Edited October 29, 2013 by anatess

[Praetorian_Brow]

I regard exotic pet ownership as non-native species. Obviously it wouldn't be much of an issue to adopt a squirrel if its native to the area, there is such a thing as called acceptable risk for the owners and the neightbours, hence why most districts or cities impose a general ban or a specific ban. It is also easier to impose the general ban as most people do not care, or lack the educated background to make an informed choice, other than, "Thats cute, I want it."

Even if I lived within an area where Anacondas were native, I wouldn't adopt one because I found some kind of emotional connection to it. Neither would I adopt a badger.

I will credit you with pointing out the specifics that I did not mention in order for me to qualify for a "logical" statement and agree to a certain extent on the specifics you mentioned, even if it doesn't change my stance on the subject. I would suggest that I was alarmed that you seem to care more for snakes than dumpster babies, but we are who we associate with.

[Churchmouse]

I live fifty miles from Zanesville. I think you would agree that was a rare case.