Having a struggle with someone in my ward caught up in perfectionism.

[LittleWyvern]

So my question remains- how do you help someone like this without getting taken for a wild ride with her?

There is a giant fuzzy line between doing good to enrich others and doing good to enrich yourself. We are often doing both at once, and it's nearly impossible to notice in yourself when you cross that line. Certain things like perfectionism may predispose us to lean toward one side of that balance. I think the key to getting through this situation without conflict relies on two things:

1) Don't attribute malice to Ms. Superwoman. She may genuinely think that she's enriching others when she rambles about how good she is. You may not feel that way, but at least try understanding her comments in the spirit they were probably meant.

2) Understand that everybody's perfect is different. What's best for one person probably isn't the best for another. Make sure you (and your kids) understand this concept. The reason why there cannot be a competition is because it's impossible to compare two people with a straight-across comparison that's implicit in "Why aren't we more like Ms. Superwoman's family?" Your answer was correct: it's because you aren't Ms. Superwoman's family, but it's one thing to say that and quite another to believe in it enough to where it doesn't bother you. Perhaps you might even help Ms. Superwoman understand this someday.

EDIT: I do want to remark here that I speak some of this via personal experience. I've struggled with perfectionism in the past (and I still do now to some extent), and it's a mystery how something that seems on its surface like it would give someone too much humility can so easily be twisted into a source of pride and competition.

Edited October 28, 2013 by LittleWyvern
Forgot to quote what I was responding to

[Leah]

Again the point was missed. I'm most definitely NOT trying to compete with her. If we were keeping score, she's so far "ahead" in her good deeds that it would be futile.

The point is I'm annoyed. The fact that her over-zealousness has infiltrated my own life (mostly through my kids) and that I often hear " Why don't we do things like the___________ family?" is disheartening. I want to just live the gospel Carlimac-style without having to wonder if I'm doing it right. I don't want my kids comparing our lives to theirs and them feeling like they got the short end of the stick. I have to frankly answer, "Because we aren't the ___________family!" But in this world of go-go-go, do-do-do ( that if we analyzed it honestly, is perpetuated for us by our church culture), that answer often isn't enough for my kids. It's just frustrating. Yes, I can take some of her good ideas and try to apply them to my life. I'm not such a curmudgeon that I'm above that. After all, it was her kids that dragged mine into this crazy expensive and all consuming dance thing. I'm going along with it for a bit here. ONE year- max! But it really is overwhelming. And I can't seem to stop the influence without coming across as an unsociable small minded grump next to her.

I feel resentful and bothered that she can't see the effect that she has on others... That even her good intentioned comments in Sunday School can be hurtful and almost insulting to others. Any comment about what we should do in applying gospel principles that starts with, " In our family..." should be outlawed. Seriously. STOP before you say it UNLESS you've been asked to give a special presentation in RS or something. The format and setting, and the invitation to share makes all the difference.

I hadn't said much about my frustrations to my husband. But for the last year he has sat in some ward council meetings with her in attendance. And he comes out of those meetings so agitated by her monopolization of the meeting and her insistence on "kicking phanny" and then rushing to take on all the assignments herself. He says its just maddening. He independently has made the exact same observations.

She isn't doing any of this maliciously. Her worst enemy- the person who is being hurt the most is herself. ( She really isn't all that healthy physically.) And perhaps her kids. One of them digs in his heels. Some of them eat it up and act a lot like she does. Her husband puts up with it. I wonder if he ever tries to reign her in privately. Other times it's obvious they are in this thing together. He's made his share of "in our family" ...comments himself but he's a little more humble about it. I've noticed that she doesn't seem to have real close friends who gravitate to her. I think people tend to avoid her. But she worms her way into peoples lives anyway. She's tenacious. She can be hard to shake. How sad to have anyone feel that way about you.

It's not conceit. It's just an abundant, overflowing amount of righteousness that smothers, annoys, exhausts and intimidates rather than inspires.

I don't understand what is wrong with "in our family". That is not uncommon usage in my ward and it is pretty benign. It is just someone providing an example of something through their own personal experience. It doesn't mean they are claiming to be superior or that their way is appropriate for everyone. Would it better if they talked about something they read somewhere, rather than an actual experience.

I think you are seeing things that don't exist, due to your dislike of this woman.

[carlimac]

I don't understand what is wrong with "in our family". That is not uncommon usage in my ward and it is pretty benign. It is just someone providing an example of something through their own personal experience. It doesn't mean they are claiming to be superior or that their way is appropriate for everyone. Would it better if they talked about something they read somewhere, rather than an actual experience.

I think you are seeing things that don't exist, due to your dislike of this woman.

OK, that was a generalization on my part. I'll make it more specific. If you are well known in the ward to be the overachiever, do-gooder ( you know it and you know everyone else knows it, too) and if you think you have a whole bunch of knowledge about the gospel and the scriptures and the best way for anyone and everyone to live their lives and you can't seem to make a comment without it turning into a 3-5 minute sermon every time, then don't start any comment with, "Well, in OUR family..." It's not going to be very well received. UNLESS you also throw in something base and human and self deprecating to balance it out. For example..." In our family, we get up at 5:30 every morning to study the scriptures. We have to turn the temperature in the room down to 37 to keep everyone awake, and we offer toothpicks to keep eyelids open but at least we're getting it done." Everyone in the room could relate to that. You want to cheer them on rather than get a cold chill and turn on yourself for not having the self discipline to get up at 5:30 for anything. And it doesn't come off as bragging about your perfection. It comes off as a sincere family with human weaknesses just trying but failing and trying again to sometimes get it right.

It's that subtlety again. It's the whole ball of gum- who you are, your tone of voice, the words you choose and how often you spout your wisdom to the ward.

We had some very good friends in another ward. They were just as awesome, but they didn't talk about themselves or use themselves as examples of righteousness. I never knew some of the cool things they did until we joined them for a family night one time. They were hard working, generous and fun loving and well aware of their imperfections- and they were OK with not being perfect. In fact they could joke about it. But everyone knew they were far better than they made themselves out to be. They were simply more enjoyable people to be around.

And yes, it's often better to use the example of something you read somewhere than to put your family on a pedestal.

[Guest]

Carlimac, it is so super difficult to meet your standards of goodness. I just don't really bother to think about if what I say sounds whatever to every single person on RS. It's bad enough to have to figure out if I should use "glorify" or "praise" or "scissors" instead of "shears". I wouldn't be capable of having to figure out if I sound too perfect or too humble or figure out what tone of voice is good to use for this or to remember when I commented last so I can be sure not to comment again for another 3.5 weeks, or whatever yardstick you like to use to stamp people into a box.

So yes, if I was in your ward, you're just gonna have to figure out how to deal with my Miss Perfectness. Because, I have given 3-5 minute comments on the cool things that is working out in my life that the RS teacher had to interrupt me and tell me I'm taking too much of lesson time. And I'm not about to just stay mum because somebody feels inadequate. This is what makes this a Church. It's a community of PEOPLE with their own ways of applying gospel principles that everybody shares to find what works.

Edited October 28, 2013 by anatess

[Bini]

There are times when others make me feel like crap and it's not even a competitive situation. I have a SIL who is a nice enough lady. She's never, to the best of my knowledge, set out to destroy me in any sense. But she makes it a big point to announce all her great and fantastic deeds that she's accomplished during the week on her Facebook status. Typically, because it's Christ's way, I'll hit the Like button or leave a congrats comment for her - I'm not always thrilled for her but I figure the first step in changing any bitterness I have is to respond in kindness - even if I don't feel like it. I guess I really noticed the affect she had on me whenever I catch up with my MIL, who always seems to reiterate the great and fantastic deeds or news that SIL is up to, and then more often than not will make a side comment like, "And she brought me homemade bread when I wasn't feeling well - and she lives a good hour and a half away! Isn't she just amazing?" Yes, of course she is :)

[carlimac]

I certainly don't go around rapping people on the head if they don't meet my standards. I do think we have a responsibility to edify one another in our Sunday classes. If we are hogging the time from the teacher ( who has been called to the position and who works long and hard to prepare) to talk about ourselves or our opinion, that's selfish. I do think we need to ask ourselves if we are sharing to add to the spirit or are we just calling attention to ourselves.

[carlimac]

Carlimac, it is so super difficult to meet your standards of goodness. I just don't really bother to think about if what I say sounds whatever to every single person on RS. It's bad enough to have to figure out if I should use "glorify" or "praise" or "scissors" instead of "shears". I wouldn't be capable of having to figure out if I sound too perfect or too humble or figure out what tone of voice is good to use for this or to remember when I commented last so I can be sure not to comment again for another 3.5 weeks, or whatever yardstick you like to use to stamp people into a box.

So yes, if I was in your ward, you're just gonna have to figure out how to deal with my Miss Perfectness. Because, I have given 3-5 minute comments on the cool things that is working out in my life that the RS teacher had to interrupt me and tell me I'm taking too much of lesson time. And I'm not about to just stay mum because somebody feels inadequate. This is what makes this a Church. It's a community of PEOPLE with their own ways of applying gospel principles that everybody shares to find what works.

I certainly don't go around rapping people on the head if they don't meet my standards in their comments. Sometimes I take too long to say what I want because I can't find the right words. I do think we have a responsibility to edify one another in our Sunday classes, though. If we are hogging the time from the teacher ( who has been called to the position and who works long and hard to prepare) to talk about ourselves or our opinion, that's selfish. I do think we need to ask ourselves if we are sharing to add to the spirit or are we just calling attention to ourselves.

[Backroads]

Haven't read any other posts...

Yeah, I have been around people like this, too. The trick is to let it all go. And I have spent years attempting this. It's quite the skill to hone.

Some thoughts:

• Are you 100% sure she's making the effort to put you down?
• It's quite possible she is that skilled and that awesome. What are you going to do?
• Some people like that have confessed to me they do indeed see their skills as better than others... get frustrated with others, and have to learn to deal with that frustration. I know it sounds awful, but it's not easy being the best. These people mean well, don't mean to be rude, but simply have a talent that comes easy. Be nice to her and she will probably be nice back.
• If you need to crack a joke about her or even vent, go for it... just make sure it's in a situation that won't come back to bite you.
• Relax and learn from her.

[Suzie]

Carlimac, this has nothing to do with your friend but with you and how you choose to feel about the things she shares and if so, perhaps you should analyze why you feel the way you do?. To be honest, I would love someone like her in my ward, it is worth of admiration and I would feel inspired to do better with my own family!

Church lessons are about providing feedback from personal experience and that's exactly what she is doing. Can we truly judge intent? Is it her job to control the emotions of others? Do others analyze that perhaps the intent isn't about making others feel bad? Is it about her really or about the insecurity of others?

[Lakumi]

reading bout all this makes me feel kind of bad for how I'd handle such people, I simply say something along the lines of;

"no part of me cares less then I do right now"

but I'm often miserable and unwilling to be told of people's success

[carlimac]

Carlimac, this has nothing to do with your friend but with you and how you choose to feel about the things she shares and if so, perhaps you should analyze why you feel the way you do?. To be honest, I would love someone like her in my ward, it is worth of admiration and I would feel inspired to do better with my own family!

Church lessons are about providing feedback from personal experience and that's exactly what she is doing. Can we truly judge intent? Is it her job to control the emotions of others? Do others analyze that perhaps the intent isn't about making others feel bad? Is it about her really or about the insecurity of others?

I guess I don't really understand what you're indicating here. She has no responsibility to change offensive behavior? My husband says the priesthood holders come out of meetings with her feeling nagged and hen-pecked. When a job in the ward needs to be done she is always so quick to volunteer and take over that many others who would like to do it but are a little more timid never get the chance. She often (like every week) monopolizes comment time in classes. When I have to call her on the phone about some little detail she launches off into long monologues about her life. And I'm just supposed to change the way I feel about it? She has no responsibility to watch the way her words and actions affect others? She seems to be so caught up in herself and her kids that I don't think she even has any clue.

I do like Backroads suggestion to just let it all go. And I do most of the time, until it gets personal. I don't think she intends to offend. But in her rush to toot her own horn and pat herself on the back ( and yes, I've known her long enough to recognize that this is what she's doing) it comes off as holier than thou. For someone who offers so much service and forever harps on helping and loving others, she certainly seems oblivious to the sensitivities of others. I could give you more specific examples but I think we've exhausted the topic.

[Suzie]

And I'm just supposed to change the way I feel about it? She has no responsibility to watch the way her words and actions affect others? She seems to be so caught up in herself and her kids that I don't think she even has any clue.

Yes, even more now knowing that you seem to notice all these things and yet she seems to be completely clueless about it.

[Sali]

I think everybody has one of these people in their ward. We have one or two and yes it grates. But I've learned to just gloss over it all. Other people see it for what it is. Try to maybe understand why she feels the need to be perfect. Maybe she needs to feel secure and worthwhile and that is how she is able to achieve that. Maybe she just needs to be the center of attention. Most others will also see through her. If she is taking over meetings, or volunteering too much, then I don't really see how she can be blamed. I would probably put the onus on others who give her that power to do so. It's so easy to stay in a comfort zone, when you know that another will take care of it. Take the power back and find a voice. Encourage others to do that too.

Why not just look at her, admire what she is good at, ignore the stuff that grates, and then look at what goodness you possess. We are all different and we all bring different things. Look for the differences you bring. And maybe figure out why she pushes your buttons so much. Ask yourself what she is touching in you that makes you feel this way. I do understand. It took me a long while to overcome my feelings about people like this too. And even now if I let myself, it can get the better of me. :) Also, is there anything you can maybe learn from her?

[TalkativeIntrovert]

I have a relative who has some of the traits you describe. A lot of one upmanship and it is very difficult to be around her. eg

- my sister went on a family holiday to Tasmania. We were all together and I asked her about the holiday and asked to see the photos. The other relative jumps in and starts telling us about her holiday to the same place 10 years prior. Lots of comments about how she did it cheaper, saw more stuff, etc. It ended up being all about her and I didn't hear my sisters story.

- One of my girls broke an arm a few months ago and the commentary at the next meet up was about how many breaks her children had.

- At our housewarming dinner, I was showing everyone around the house and she had bought the plans of her house extensions with her and was trying to show them as we were walking!

I have done what one of the posters above said, when she talks about an achievement, I congratulate and make a fuss. I ask her advice on things regardless of whether I really need it. Those simple things seem to give her attention and acknowledgement up front and calm her down so the occasion seems to flow a bit better.

I have come to the conclusion (as have others) that she has inappropriate social skills. She was an only child and never learnt to share well. I have also found out that she felt inferior to my sister and I as we are/were very successful in our careers. So perhaps she tries to build herself up by doing these things?

Anyway, once we got past the unwanted (in our opinion) behaviours, she is a very generous, warm hearted person.

Regardless of the reason, she is in our family and in our lives and we look for ways to make it easier. A lot of our social group don't bother trying, and I can understand that too.

In the case of this lady you have 2 separate issues. One if your interaction with her, and the other is her monopolising church activities. In regards to church activities, it sounds like the bishop needs to take a strong stance with her to allow others in. On the personal side, she is in your life, you can work on how you feel about her, or distance yourself if it is to painful for you.

[Sali]

Something just came to my mind. Have you ever done the 'Color Code Test', Carlimac? This lady sounds to me like she could be a red and I wonder if you are a blue? Reds don't get blues and blues tend not to get reds very easily. I am a blue and reds are my irritants lol. I think there is a thread on here somewhere regarding the Color Code. Give it a try, it may help you understand why she grates on you so much.

[carlimac]

Something just came to my mind. Have you ever done the 'Color Code Test', Carlimac? This lady sounds to me like she could be a red and I wonder if you are a blue? Reds don't get blues and blues tend not to get reds very easily. I am a blue and reds are my irritants lol. I think there is a thread on here somewhere regarding the Color Code. Give it a try, it may help you understand why she grates on you so much.

She's red/yellow. I'm definitely blue through and through. My red daughter is the one I've clashed with the most.

[Leah]

I guess I don't really understand what you're indicating here. She has no responsibility to change offensive behavior? My husband says the priesthood holders come out of meetings with her feeling nagged and hen-pecked. When a job in the ward needs to be done she is always so quick to volunteer and take over that many others who would like to do it but are a little more timid never get the chance. She often (like every week) monopolizes comment time in classes. When I have to call her on the phone about some little detail she launches off into long monologues about her life. And I'm just supposed to change the way I feel about it? She has no responsibility to watch the way her words and actions affect others? She seems to be so caught up in herself and her kids that I don't think she even has any clue.

I do like Backroads suggestion to just let it all go. And I do most of the time, until it gets personal. I don't think she intends to offend. But in her rush to toot her own horn and pat herself on the back ( and yes, I've known her long enough to recognize that this is what she's doing) it comes off as holier than thou. For someone who offers so much service and forever harps on helping and loving others, she certainly seems oblivious to the sensitivities of others. I could give you more specific examples but I think we've exhausted the topic.

My last comment in this thread is that you really need to find a way to let go of your obsession with, and your obsessive dislike of this woman.

But it sounds as though you absolutely no desire to.

[carlimac]

My last comment in this thread is that you really need to find a way to let go of your obsession with, and your obsessive dislike of this woman.

But it sounds as though you absolutely no desire to.

I'm starting to. Backroads description of just letting it all go sounds very freeing.

[Quin]

I'm starting to. Backroads description of just letting it all go sounds very freeing.

I'm going to suggest a book on Boundaries.

It sounds, reading through, as if this might really be the root problem here. You sound really enmeshed with this lady. To the point of wanting her to change everything about herself (her speech, her actions, her awareness, her motivations, etc.) in order for you to be happy.

That's not even good in a marriage, much less a casual acquaintance.

I mean, imagine how completely screwed up it would be if ANYONE completely ignored themselves and only focused on what other people wanted & thought about them! LOL, therapists buy boats and summer homes trying to get people to stop worrying so much about what strangers think of them, and being true to themselves.

There are a LOT of great resources out there...

- Codependent No More. Amazon.com: Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself eBook: Melody Beattie: Kindle Store

- Boundaries, where you end & I begin (ESP for people with abuse or addiction backgrounds, don't know if that's you, if not, one of see others would probably be better)

- Boundaries. (Via Dave Ramsey)

These are all generally respected sources (academically speaking... You'll find these texts used in schools & med offices)... O not just pop psych. But there are also a lot more web resources available. Personally, the books would be best... But some of the web resources aren't bad. This is a halfway decent inventory, for example. Begin to Set Personal Boundaries - Oprah.com. But e books are waaaay better

Q

Edited October 29, 2013 by Quin
Broken link

[Magen_Avot]

Carlimac, I have known someone like you describe. I always said she was "sickly sweet". After several years I had a spiritual experience that caused me to suddenly shift in my attitude of her so much I called and talked to her about how I had felt and that I had changed. I realized she was 'legit' and I was able to accept her.

What others are saying may not sound very 'soft' but I agree. Here's how I would say it...

"Come unto Jesus". Pray for her and yourself. Struggle through it and you will learn to love her. Really love her. You will be able to see that we are all in different places and it just doesn't matter what someone else is doing or why. It matters what "I" am doing and if I'm progressing on the path to Christ. You can find peace regardless of what you are dealing with now. It just won't matter like it does now and the spirit will lead you to serve her in ways she really needs and you both stand to gain everything.

I wish you well.

[Guest]

I certainly don't go around rapping people on the head if they don't meet my standards in their comments. Sometimes I take too long to say what I want because I can't find the right words. I do think we have a responsibility to edify one another in our Sunday classes, though. If we are hogging the time from the teacher ( who has been called to the position and who works long and hard to prepare) to talk about ourselves or our opinion, that's selfish. I do think we need to ask ourselves if we are sharing to add to the spirit or are we just calling attention to ourselves.

Unfortunately, some of us don't realize we have hogged the time unless the teacher brings the lesson back under control. And of course we're talking about ourselves and our opinion. Why would you even bother to comment if it's not about how you apply gospel principles and what is your opinion about it? That doesn't make sense!

But, where I see the problem is, I may think it is adding to the spirit but you judge it as just calling attention to myself. That's where the problem lies. Because there is no way for me to control how you feel about that. And that criteria you posted just made me go... huh?

[carlimac]

Unfortunately, some of us don't realize we have hogged the time unless the teacher brings the lesson back under control. And of course we're talking about ourselves and our opinion. Why would you even bother to comment if it's not about how you apply gospel principles and what is your opinion about it? That doesn't make sense!

But, where I see the problem is, I may think it is adding to the spirit but you judge it as just calling attention to myself. That's where the problem lies. Because there is no way for me to control how you feel about that. And that criteria you posted just made me go... huh?

No need to act defensive Anatess. I'm not in your ward, you're not in mine. I'm not judging YOU. Just judge yourself. Be aware that long comments, yes are sometimes edifying. We've had some in our RS that just made the lesson that much more spiritual. But they can also be hugely distracting and problematic for the teacher when they go off track or the person repeats the same thing in three or four different ways before getting around to finishing. If you've ever been a teacher, you know how it goes. Same with women who just let their babies cry and don't take them out. It just kills the spirit.

[Guest]

No need to act defensive Anatess. I'm not in your ward, you're not in mine. I'm not judging YOU. Just judge yourself. Be aware that long comments, yes are sometimes edifying. We've had some in our RS that just made the lesson that much more spiritual. But they can also be hugely distracting and problematic for the teacher when they go off track or the person repeats the same thing in three or four different ways before getting around to finishing. If you've ever been a teacher, you know how it goes. Same with women who just let their babies cry and don't take them out. It just kills the spirit.

Okay, something is going on here... because I wasn't being defensive nor did I perceive anything about you judging me. I was merely pointing out that there can be and usually is a difference between how someone intends to portray themselves and how somebody else sees them using myself as an example.

A class is managed by the teacher, not the students. I don't know how that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

And speaking of the spirit in classrooms. I was just in the Philippines and I learned a very valuable lesson on the spirit in classrooms. I don't want to derail this thread but I want to point out that what I learned is that every person is responsible for their own spiritual experience and can rise above the distractions. I knew this, I just forgot about it when I came to America. It's even portrayed in baseball movies - you know, that movie when the pitcher prepares for a pitch and "zones in". That's the exact same process in Church.

[Bini]

Okay, something is going on here... because I wasn't being defensive nor did I perceive anything about you judging me. I was merely pointing out that there can be and usually is a difference between how someone intends to portray themselves and how somebody else sees them using myself as an example.

A class is managed by the teacher, not the students. I don't know how that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

And speaking of the spirit in classrooms. I was just in the Philippines and I learned a very valuable lesson on the spirit in classrooms. I don't want to derail this thread but I want to point out that what I learned is that every person is responsible for their own spiritual experience and can rise above the distractions. I knew this, I just forgot about it when I came to America. It's even portrayed in baseball movies - you know, that movie when the pitcher prepares for a pitch and "zones in". That's the exact same process in Church.

I remember attending church in the Philippines like it was yesterday. I agree that the reverence in Western culture is very different to that in Asia, at least, the Philippines specifically. People would sleep, snore and eat stinky food in the back rows - yeh you don't quite get that here in Utah :) That said, it is only polite to step out or take your child out if you're likely to cause some commotion. We tend to forget that it's not only adults trying to 'zone in' but teens and little kids are also trying to 'zone in'. It can be very difficult for youngsters to listen and or feel the spirit when a peer is wailing a row behind them. I've seen it far too many times when a little kid will act up and another little kid, outside of kin, will turn around and try to comfort the upset child - that's not anyone's job but the parent of the child and taking him or her out for a bit to wind down isn't such a bad idea.. I see it alike going to a movie. Yes, I could ignore the rude person texting on her phone the entire movie but I shouldn't have to. So I'll get up and ask politely if she'll turn it off or step out a moment. I think the same could be done within church, perhaps offer to assist a struggling parent, and chances are they'll get a clue and step out on their own.

[kathysmike]

We have a family in our ward that fit the model of being caught in the trap of volunteering for every project. It used to bother me, until I heard the Father say one Sunday "It happens all the time I see plate after plate of cookies go out the door, but do I ever get any?" Now when the Whatchamcallem boys are the only ones to volunteer for a service project, or anything else that needs to get done, I stop and think when was the last time we did something for their family.