Can gossip be anonymous?

[Dravin]

We are quite clearly counseled against gossiping. It can easily create disharmony, it can reinforce judgmental behavior or prompt it, the damage it can wreak when it comes back to its victim can be devastating. There are probably extant threads trying to hash out just what gossip is, but there is one aspect of gossip I wanted to discuss. If the person you are talking about is anonymous, if you don't disclose names, if what would be gossip if it started with, "Did you hear about Dravin? Well, he..." stop being gossip if names are omitted? If instead of this:

Sister Jones was wearing a dress that showed her garments last Sunday, she'd barely bend over and they'd peak out beneath the hem. I'm sure she was doing that to show off her body, you know she's vain because of how picky she is about what she eats.

it becomes:

One of the sisters was wearing a dress that showed her garments last Sunday, she'd barely bend over and they'd peak out beneath the hem. I'm sure she was doing that to show off her body, you know she's vain because of how picky she is about what she eats.

Does that mean it isn't gossip? Is it okay? Is it still bad but qualifies as something else? Lets assume they aren't playing games with the idea of anonymity and aren't dropping hints like a trail of breadcrumbs so they can 'innocently' claim, "Hey, I didn't say it was Sister Jones!" I feel that with the prevalence and participation in social media that the latter example is increasingly common. Though it is entirely possible that it was just as common previously but I just wasn't aware of it for one reason or another before it started popping up online in such public places. Personally, I'm inclined to say yes it is gossip, simply redacting a name doesn't change gossip into non-gossip, at least in this particular example the goal is to share details about others in order to insult and denigrate them.

What are your thoughts? Does anonymity of the target preclude gossip?

Edited October 28, 2013 by Dravin

[Zeitgeist]

Does anonymity of the target preclude gossip?

Well... let me tell you a rather horrible story about anonymous gossip that happened to me while I was in the military. Most of the men in my squadron were single, but a few had wives and lived off-base.

One morning one of my single friends (let's call him "S") boasted that the night before he had gone out and done some very sinful things that I could not possibly repeat on this site. He was careful not to mention the names of other people who were with him, but he gleefully gave us all other details of his adventure.

This was good, high-grade, industrial-strength gossip, which I assumed was true and could be repeated safely because no names were involved. That afternoon I bumped into the wife of another friend (let's call him "M") and repeated, with much snickering, the highlights of the gossip that I had heard from S. It turns out that M was in the group of S's friends from the previous night, and M's wife was able to piece together the whole story from some stray minor facts that I repeated.

Thirty-five years have passed since that blunder, and I am still sorrowful over repeating this gossip. I'm sure my carelessness caused a lot of friction in that marriage. Yes, you argue, the marriage itself must have wobbled because of the husband's unfaithfulness, but it's not right for me to make it wobble more.

Ever since then, I've pretended that my entire life and all my conversations will be publicly available on DVD form in the celestial kingdom. And without a laugh track, just the raw dialogues. It's done wonders for restraining my gossiping tongue. Read James 3 if you need further inspiration.

[Guest]

Still gossip.

There is a difference between gossip and an anecdote to put some idea across. Both can be anonymous and both are completely different in the spirit it evokes.

[Guest]

If Sister So-and-So was wearing something inappropriate, not naming her doesn't help much. Anyone who saw her already knows.

Except if I come here and complain about a girl in the YSA branch wearing a skin-tight miniskirt, is that still gossip? Because she did, and my friend and I were aghast.

[Guest]

If Sister So-and-So was wearing something inappropriate, not naming her doesn't help much. Anyone who saw her already knows.

Except if I come here and complain about a girl in the YSA branch wearing a skin-tight miniskirt, is that still gossip? Because she did, and my friend and I were aghast.

It is not gossip because it is not given in the spirit of putting down someone who wore a skin-tight miniskirt to elevate yourself. You were only talking about your feelings of aghast-ment.

[Suzie]

Except if I come here and complain about a girl in the YSA branch wearing a skin-tight miniskirt, is that still gossip? Because she did, and my friend and I were aghast.

Perhaps fault-finding?

It is not gossip because it is not given in the spirit of putting down someone who wore a skin-tight miniskirt to elevate yourself.

I would disagree with that. Spreading rumors, personal/intimate information about others (mentioning names or anonymously) is gossip, regardless of the intent (doesn't matter whether or not the person is doing it to elevate themselves or not).

[Dravin]

Spreading rumors, personal/intimate information about others (mentioning names or anonymously) is gossip, regardless of the intent (doesn't matter whether or not the person is doing it to elevate themselves or not).

I think a lot of gossip goes on in the Church under the flag of enlisting support for people. You have someone who knows about Bro. Schmidt's fertility issues and they spread it around with the thinking that people now know to careful around him when talking about having kids or what have you. The intentions are surely good, but it is gossip.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Dravin

[Suzie]

I think a lot of gossip goes on in the Church under the flag of enlisting support for people. You have someone who knows about Bro. Schmidt's fertility issues and they spread it around with the thinking that people now to careful around him when talking about having kids or what have you. The intentions are surely good, but it is gossip.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions". I don't mean anyone is going to hell for gossiping but you get the drift.

[Anddenex]

Does that mean it isn't gossip? Is it okay? Is it still bad but qualifies as something else? Lets assume they aren't playing games with the idea of anonymity and aren't dropping hints like a trail of breadcrumbs so they can 'innocently' claim, "Hey, I didn't say it was Sister Jones!" I feel that with the prevalence and participation in social media that the latter example is increasingly common. Though it is entirely possible that it was just as common previously but I just wasn't aware of it for one reason or another before it started popping up online in such public places. Personally, I'm inclined to say yes it is gossip, simply redacting a name doesn't change gossip into non-gossip, at least in this particular example the goal is to share details about others in order to insult and denigrate them.

What are your thoughts? Does anonymity of the target preclude gossip?

When considering gossip and the anonymity of the target I believe it to be circumstantial and according to the intent behind the discussion. If a person is pretending to be anonymous while dropping hints with regard to who the family is, yes this is gossip.

Other circumstances I don't think anonymity is gossip depending on the intent of the discussion. Bishop asks me as his counselor, "Brother Exon, I have a family.......What would you do?" I have no clue who the family is, but I share my thoughts.

Other circumstances, speaking with someone else, "Hello friend, I am currently experiencing a difficult relationship and not sure how to handle it. This is the scenario with this individual, how would you respond?" Name withheld, only circumstance shared."

Gossip, "Hey friend, I won't tell you his/her name but man this person is so ....... I am just not sure I can deal with them anymore." This would be the type of circumstantial conversation that would easily lead to gossip.

[TalkativeIntrovert]

A slightly different slant to gossip ....

I volunteered at the school canteen and breakfast club - ripe environment for gossip if ever there was one. There was 1 circumstance where I was gossiped to about a family where the step-dad was caught taking pics of one of the young teen daughters in the shower.

My head exploded! Why is she being talked about rather than helped? Instant action, I organised a trailer and that mum and her girls were moved out by that weekend and she was directed to the police to report what had happened. Without that gossip, I don't know where that family would be at now.

Gossip as a term has negative connotations, it implies people talking about others behind their back in a judgemental manner. I think the problem is with identifying what is gossip and what is conversation creating a community.

I think a lot of it is intent as Anddenex said. We live in a large circuit, 1 way in and out, I know the neighbours on my side but not the other. I found out (through gossip?) that one of the neighbours on the other side had a heart attack (late 30's), he has a wife and child. I passed this information on to other neighbours with the intent that we can look out for the family and take meals over. They were very grateful for the support.

Is that gossip?

[Magen_Avot]

I have been contemplating this topic for the last couple of months myself. As I read the post I began looking at what I have posted in the forums in the past,... like yesterday even.

Easier said than done but now I think I see that using any example in the past to illustrate my own intolerance of something... like dress length, even if the person is far removed is a reflection in my own mind of judgemental thoughts. Can that get me one more step closer to Christ? I don't think so. I might be able to wiggle into thinking it's no sin, but a Christ like attribute? No way!

Intent may just be a type of "philosophies of men" regardless of scriptorial support unless done by the spirit. I have seen some pretty messy discussions in ward counsel under the cloak of intent. But anonymous? The Lord knows.

Just my opinion though,...

and thanks for the food for thought Dravin, this is worthy of more introspection.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[Quin]

And another spinoff Q... Is it gossip if its NICE?

I caught myself the other day talking about how awesome this one couple is in my ward. Totally FELT like gossip. Even though its the kind of thing if someone stepped out of a bathroom stall, and it was the person you were talking about, it would be an "Oh! There she is!" kind of thing... It was still talking about someone to no purpose.

Which, I think, is where TalkativeIntroverts line lays down in my own mind.

To my understanding, while the OTHER people may have been gossiping (talking to no purpose), as soon as TI got involved, things got done. Which transcends gossip into being made aware, planning, & fixing. Aka talking to a purpose. (Planning & action).

My family does that... In some ways we have zero boundaries: we talk about each ore constantly... With an eye to help.

My ex's family does the same thing: with an eye to judge (approve or disapprove).

Which is why I felt squidgy gushing about Awesome Couple... All I was doing was judging them to others. Granted my findings were positive, but that's beside the point. If I were introducing, that would be different. Instead, all I was doing was sharing my judgements. Ick.

Q

[Guest]

I would disagree with that. Spreading rumors, personal/intimate information about others (mentioning names or anonymously) is gossip, regardless of the intent (doesn't matter whether or not the person is doing it to elevate themselves or not).

We're talking about spreading rumors?

My understanding of what Eowyn stated is that she saw a girl wearing a tight mini-skirt and she went and told somebody about how aghast she felt when she saw that.

I don't see how that is spreading a rumor or personal/intimate information about others.

[Guest]

Actually what happened is that my friend and I were sitting at the piano in the chapel going over some music, and the girl came in and started changing the hymn numbers. Both our eyes got big and my friend mouthed something to me and I mouthed something back and that was the end of it. No running to tell anyone.

What I wondered is if it would be gossiping to come here to this forum and say something about it to open up a discussion about appropriate dress.

[Dravin]

Just to clarify, in case anyone is confused, my personal opinion is not that any anonymous mention or discussion of others is gossip. My personal position is that if something is gossip simply not naming names does not make it no longer gossip. If you're gossiping about John, your coworker, the same communication but referring to him as, "a guy at work." doesn't get you off the gossip hook.

Well... let me tell you a rather horrible story about anonymous gossip that happened to me while I was in the military. Most of the men in my squadron were single, but a few had wives and lived off-base.

I think your post is a good example that even when we think the person we are talking about is hid by a perfect shroud of anonymity they very well may not be. Particularly if it is someone you are constantly talking about, one day you share gossip about a guy at work. The next you gossip about the same guy but it comes out he's bald, still there are 5 guys you work with who are bald. Then it later comes out he's in your department, well that still only narrows it down to 3 guys. And finally, at some later date, you make reference to his glasses, you've now narrowed it down to the only bald guy with glasses who works in your department. You didn't intend to leave a trail of breadcrumbs but you did nonetheless.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

I agree that wryly dropping breadcrumbs does not make one innocent in the least, and that we should be careful talking about mutual acquaintances, even anonymously.

[Guest]

Just to clarify, in case anyone is confused, my personal opinion is not that any anonymous mention or discussion of others is gossip. My personal position is that if something is gossip simply not naming names does not make it no longer gossip. If you're gossiping about John, your coworker, the same communication but referring to him as, "a guy at work." doesn't get you off the gossip hook.

I agree. Gossip is gossip regardless of anonymity.

But, I don't think there's an agreement on what constitutes gossip...

[estradling75]

But, I don't think there's an agreement on what constitutes gossip...

Because it is a very fine line between gaining the information you need to act in a Christ-like and compassionate manner toward a person... and gaining information to help yourself. (aka feel better, superior, part of the group etc.) While there is nothing wrong with helping yourself it really shouldn't be at someone else's expense

[Dravin]

I agree. Gossip is gossip regardless of anonymity.

But, I don't think there's an agreement on what constitutes gossip...

There isn't, which is why I focused my OP specifically concerning anonymity. It's certainly a prime topic for discussion, what constitutes gossip, but I knew there didn't exist hard and fast, universally accepted, rules concerning what actually constitutes gossip and I didn't want the aspect of anonymity to get swallowed up in that particular discussion. I don't own the thread, if people want to hash it out here that is perfectly fine but my intent was to discuss a particular aspect of gossip rather than approach it holistically.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Dravin

[pam]

Remember the gossip game we used to play as a kid? You start in a circle and someone whispers a sentence to the first person and you have to pass that around the circle. By the time you get to the end you have a completely different sentence than what was started with.

While one might think that what they are saying is innocent, by the time it's passed a dozen times what was said has been totally changed and/or embellished beyond truth.

[Guest]

Remember the gossip game we used to play as a kid? You start in a circle and someone whispers a sentence to the first person and you have to pass that around the circle. By the time you get to the end you have a completely different sentence than what was started with.

While one might think that what they are saying is innocent, by the time it's passed a dozen times what was said has been totally changed and/or embellished beyond truth.

But that's true for most passed communication, not just gossip.

I'm a programmer. It is quite a challenge to be able to develop an application that is consistent with what the customer wants because the requirements as passed on from the client to the IT liaison, to the project manager, to the infrastructure group to the development consultants degrade. It is an important skillset to be able to communicate in your own field of expertise exactly as declared by the client.

So, I'm not sure how information degradation makes it gossip? Or did I misunderstand your post?

[pam]

But that's true for most passed communication, not just gossip.

I'm a programmer. It is quite a challenge to be able to develop an application that is consistent with what the customer wants because the requirements as passed on from the client to the IT liaison, to the project manager, to the infrastructure group to the development consultants degrade. It is an important skillset to be able to communicate in your own field of expertise exactly as declared by the client.

So, I'm not sure how information degradation makes it gossip? Or did I misunderstand your post?

I think you misunderstood my post.

[Guest]

I think you misunderstood my post.

Enlighten me.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I believe the litmus test for whether or not its gossip, is to consider the reaction of the person being discussed, if they were present to hear the discussion. I find it interesting that most people have no qualms about discussing people not present, but are more tactful with people who are.

I find it hilarious that my ex only talked of all my faults to her family and friends, so guess what, they regarded me with suspicion and hostility. If my ex had spoken of my good qualities, they would have been less hostile, as ironically enough, I taught my ex all she needed to have a good relationship and didn't hide who I was like, she did. Love her though.

If the absent person would appreciate that they are being talked about, then I wouldn't call it gossip. Gossip is extremely damaging, as that is how new members are ostracized, cliques are formed, suspicions bred, lies hatched, ambition realized and people who repent are refused social forgiveness as they are forever spoken of in a negative light.

I rarely gossip about people, but I do have a habit of unintentionally passing on what I have heard from others, as if its some kind of virus that its my duty to pass on. I need to work on that.

[pam]

Enlighten me.

Passing information around about a person would be gossip. My point was and I was using the gossip game as an analogy that by the time it makes it past 3-4-5 people, it's so distorted that the information or gossip is no where near what the original person said.

You could start out by say: "I heard Betty is getting married this Saturday to a guy she met at work who has the name of Bob.

By the time it gets around it's "I heard Betty is getting married because she has to to a guy name Bob who got fired because of his affair with Sally that has a dog by the name of Duke.

Another analogy...gossip is like throwing feathers into a wind storm. Once released you can never get them back.