Dos Pilas (Mayan city) and Alma 50


Speakzeasy
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Here is a link (through Google Image search) to a drawing of Dos Pilas, a Mayan city in Guatemala, that was published as a foldout in the February 1993 National Geographic:

Google Image Result for http://www.authenticmaya.com/images/dos%2520pilas%2520maketa.jpg

Any thoughts about its possible relationship to Alma 50:1-6:

1 AND now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.

3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high.

4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them.

5 And they were prepared that they could cast stones from the top thereof, according to their pleasure and their strength, and slay him who should attempt to approach near the walls of the city.

6 Thus Moroni did prepare strongholds against the coming of their enemies, round about every city in all the land. (Alma 50:6).

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I have not looked very deeply into this particular ruin but in general Mayan cities mostly date in the AD era and the particular reference in Alma is BC. So in essence we are usually looking at about a 500 year discrepancy. I would need more information to be certain - I will see what I can find.

The Traveler

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The image has two drawings of an artist conception of Dos Pilas. The upper is the city before war broke out (before 761 A.D.) and lower the city after/during a war that broke out (761 A.D.). When looking at the lower drawing one can see the earthen wall and wooden pickets placed on top of earthen wall that enclose the area around the city.

Alma 50:1-6 tells of Moroni's effort to protect the Nephite community in a very similar fashion. Moroni had a great deal of time to build walls of protection. What would Moroni's protection look like if the walls were built in a short time frame? Was the idea of a wall with ditches (motes) to much time and labor to build? Did the Lamanites continue Moroni's lead in this type of defense?

Google Image Result for http://www.authenticmaya.com/images/dos%2520pilas%2520maketa.jpg

we are usually looking at about a 500 year discrepancy

I agree, there are discrepancies.

Edited by Speakzeasy
for clarity
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I do not see a connection, just a coincidence. As noted, this is more than 800 years later than Capt Moroni. We may as well say that the casinos we find on AmerIndian reservations today have a connection to the wigwams and teepees used in the 17th century....

I disagree. Many have mocked the Book of Mormon for claiming "walled cities" in the Americas, no doubt envisioning Italian-style stone wall fortifications. Yet here we have a reconstruction of a walled city, very much as described in the Book of Mormon.

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Vort, I believe the Nephites had walled cities. That said, I do not believe that an ancient city that is not directly tied to the Nephites in time, possibly location, and actual people (Nephites were destroyed 400 years before, and Nephite walled cities were 1000 years before)), then we can only look at this as a coincidence.

This would not make good scholarship. Instead, we would have many scholars, including LDS scholars, dismissing such a claim. Apples and oranges are not to be compared.

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Vort, I believe the Nephites had walled cities. That said, I do not believe that an ancient city that is not directly tied to the Nephites in time, possibly location, and actual people (Nephites were destroyed 400 years before, and Nephite walled cities were 1000 years before)), then we can only look at this as a coincidence.

Why? This is not at all logical.

Suppose we have a claim that Italian cities of 1500 years ago often had stone walls surrounding the city. Suppose we then found that Lucca has a complete stone wall still surrounding the city, and the wall dates from 1000 AD. Would you then say, as you do in this case, that finding an Italian city with a thousand-year-old city wall has nothing whatsoever to do with the claim that such Italian cities existed 1500 years ago? That's it's mere coincidence?

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Again it is apples and oranges. You are missing the concept of two different peoples: Nephites and Lamanites.

If you wish an analogy, you would need to say there was a walled city in ancient Florence Italy, and then 1500 years later we find another walled city in Hamburg, Germany.

They are not necessarily related. While in the general vicinity, they are separated by time and people.

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There are two points - Vort is correct in pointing out that arguments against the validity of the Book of Mormon are bogus and that over time the claims made to disprove the Book of Mormon have over time been proven completely false. Thus Vort's point that the particular argument that there were no walled cities is and invalid argument.

But there is another side and I believe that is the effort of our friend Ram. That is that finding a walled city does not prove the Book of Mormon. Therefore, we cannot say that this is evidence that the Book of Mormon is historically accurate - just that our critics are foolish.

The one argument that can be made concerning the Book of Mormon is that over time those that have claimed there is no supportive evidence of such civilizations in the Americas as spoken of in the Book of Mormon have been increasingly shown to be inaccurate - but at the same time there has yet to be discovered any conclusive evidence in the Americas to prove the Book of Mormon - though there is circumstantial evidence that the Nephite and Lamanite civilization was possible.

One other point that I find interesting is that any arguments made to claim disprove of the Book of Mormon - like migrations 20,000 and 40,000 years ago and no genetic links to Jews also disprove the Bible - such as Noah ten generations from Abraham from which Jews are genetically linked. Thus verifying the Book of Mormon that the Bible and the Book or Mormon work together (linked) to testify of Christ

The Traveler

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Again it is apples and oranges. You are missing the concept of two different peoples: Nephites and Lamanites.

If you wish an analogy, you would need to say there was a walled city in ancient Florence Italy, and then 1500 years later we find another walled city in Hamburg, Germany.

They are not necessarily related. While in the general vicinity, they are separated by time and people.

Again, you miss the point: Book of Mormon critics contend THERE WERE NO WALLED CITIES IN PRECOLUMBIAN AMERICA, and no walled cities anywhere in the world of the type described in the Book of Mormon. They are entirely a work of fiction.

Suddenly, lo and behold! Walled cities -- IN THE AMERICAS! Not just in the Americas, but in Central America, the same general area where the Book of Mormon is thought by many to have taken place!

Suppose we claimed that stone walls surrounded many cities on the Italian peninsula 2500 years ago. The experts scoff, "Walled cities! What absurdity! Such things did not exist at all! And certainly not in southern Europe!"

Then we find that walled cities of exactly the type we described did in fact exist around cities near Munich 1500 years ago.

Would you then say, "Oh, well, that's sheer coincidence! That's HUNDREDS of miles away from Italy and a thousand years later. No possible connection at all."

Or would you say, "Hey, look at that! Stone fortifications consisting of walls around cities in Europe in ancient times, just as predicted! Astounding!"

The existence of log fortifications atop earthen walls surrounding cities in ancient times in a likely vicinity of the Book of Mormon peoples within a few centuries of the invention of exactly such fortifications is indeed impressive evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I do not understand your mania to disclaim such compelling evidence as "coincidence". Please provide examples of other such coincidences, where the Book of Mormon predicts structures that no one believe ever existed anywhere, much less in early preColumbian America of 2300 years ago, which are then found actually to have existed in ancient times in the Americas. Or provide other similar examples.

Skepticism is a good trait, when used reasonably. But when skepticism makes you deny obvious relationships, it's not being reasonably used. You are in the position of some future historian investigating the possibility of ancient lunar travel who claims, "Man is said to have landed on the lunar Sea of Tranquility in the mid-20th century. This may or may not be true, but finding amazing evidence of a lunar colony established in about 2350 near the Tycho crater is pure coincidence. It's hundreds of years and thousands of miles from the supposed site of the claimed 20th-century moon landing."

(And I don't know how you can claim a difference in geography, unless you have some insider knowledge as to the locations of the Book of Mormon narrative that the rest of us lack.)

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Here's some info on more walled cities and palisades in Mesoamerica.

Mesoamerican ruins of Be K'an 150-450 AD, Tikal, Edzna have dirt fortifications

Then we are still OK for Mesoamerica. Most of these dry moats were missed in early excavations. Having been found (at locations such as Becan) they are now part of the list of things to look for, and they are found in increasing numbers as they continue to dig. These are dry moats that use the dirt to build up a mound, on top of which are staked fences. That is precisely what the Book of Mormon suggests. If that is your only criterion, you now have at least two places that qualify. Your assertion that there are none is clearly ignorant of the data.

Mesoamerican Fortifications and the Book of Mormon

early use of such palisades at San Jose Mogote in the Valley of Oaxaca; Bruce Owen discusses such fortifications at Becan in central Yucatan (5 meter deep moat, a 12 meter high earth embankment, with a timber palisade on top), and at other settlements Mesoamerica: Maya Ross Hassig, War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica (1992), 219 n. 34, says that

"the relative absence of fortifications in the Maya lowlands is at least partly the result of not looking for them and because the primary thrust has been to look for earthen and stone walls, leading archaeologists to ignore possible organic remains of such defensive structures as wooden palisades. The large defensive wall and dry moat at Tikal were not recognized as such for years despite being pierced by paths along which archaeologists repeatedly passed between Tikal and Uaxactun. Palisades would leave even fewer traces (Webster 1976a:89;m 1979:148)."

The breakthrough discoveries of Webster and others at Tulane University were soon followed by related findings which fueled a paradigm shift in our understanding of the prevalence of warfare in ancient Mesoamerica. Other findings have confirmed the use of palisaded fortifications (palisade = fence of "pales" or pointed sticks made as a defensive barrier, according to the American Heritage Dictionary), ditches, and earthen walls. John Sorenson summarizes these Mesoamerican findings as of 1984:

“More than one hundred fortified sites are now known. Ray Matheny's work at Edzna revealed a large, moated fortress dating to around the time of Christ [1]. Loma Torremote in the Valley of Mexico was a palisaded hilltop settlement by about 400 B.C. [2] Part of the three kilometers of defensive walls at famous Monte Alban dates before 200 B.C. [3] The core of Los Naranjos in western Honduras was entirely surrounded by a big ditch sometime between 1000 and 500 B.C. [4] Besides the actual sites, graphic art, remains of weapons, and warrior figurines have been found for many periods. So have stone walls. (Compare Alma 48:8) [5] And the public skull-rack (Aztec tzompantli), used at the time of the Conquest by the Aztecs to strike fear into the hearts of potential rebels against their military control, has now been found in Cuicatlan Valley of Oaxaca dating from before the time of Christ. [6]

"Increasingly, it is apparent that war practices in use when the Europeans arrived go back to the very early history of Mesoamerica. Yet as late as ten years ago, most of the published descriptions of early life in the area directly contradicted this view." (Ensign, Sept. 1984, p. 33.)

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This post more to the topic of debate then the topic of the thread.

There is an interesting Series that was televised on PBS in the middle 1980's called 'The Day the Universe Changed' Now it can be viewed on YouTube.com at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdB61lXonEY&list=PLmo9vOINxhRmw0KvFkK4N1aheLWsg4xhp. All ten parts are upload to YouTube.

What makes this an interesting program is that James Burke, the author of the book by the same name and narrator of the series, tells about how the events in history effect us today.

In this ten part series Burke starts with the Ionian (people) -- Encyclopedia Britannica (c. 1000 B.C.) and tells about the major events/discoveries through out history that have brought us to be the people/society we are today ("why we are the way we are" - Burke).

Nothing in history is done without something before itself. All thought is a development of something that exist before it.

(An interesting article from BYU Religious Education Student Symposium 2008: Captain Moroni's Stratagem: Straight from the Scriptures | Religious Studies Center)

Edited by Speakzeasy
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These may be dumb questions, but I'll ask anyway.

Didn't Moroni bury the plates in the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York? Doesn't that mean that Moroni probably didn't live in Central America?

Remember that Moroni traveled for several decades before depositing the plates in Cumorah, this was more than enough time to make the trek. There have been documented cases of others doing this in less than a year.

An interesting bit on this topic can be found in a book by John Lund.

"Two maps showing Moroni's travels from Central America to Palmyra, New York were produced by two contemporaries of the prophet who said that their information came from Joseph Smith himself. Patriarch Wm. McBride and Brother Andrew M. Hamilton, both of whom settled in the Richfield, Utah area credited Joseph Smith with teaching them that the Land of Bountiful mentioned in the Book of Mormon was in Central America. He also taught them that Moroni had dedicated several temple sites during his long journey. Moroni

carried with him what Joseph Smith referred to as the "other things" which were found buried with the gold plates. These included the Urim and Thummin, the breastplate and the sword of Laban. The plates themselves weighed about 50 to 60 pounds.

The temple sites credited to Moroni's dedications are the St. George and Manti, Utah temples, plus Nauvoo, Independence and Kirtland, and, according to Patriarch McBride, "others we know not of yet." McBride wrote that Joseph "marked with his cane in the sand the track the Saints would take to the Rocky Mountains" and also drew a map of Moroni's travels. In later years both Patriarch McBride and Brother Hamilton drew maps according to their recollections which were basically the same. From information written on the maps, they show that: (1) the Book of Mormon Land of Bountiful was in Central America, (2) Moroni walked from Central America to Palmyra, New York, (3) Moroni traveled through the Great Basin on his way to New York, and (4) he visited the site of Adam-Ondi-Ahman.

According to Patriarch McBride, Moroni was accompanied by other Nephites during part of his journey to Palmyra. No information has been found from either brother's writings why he finished the last part of his journey alone or what happened to those who followed him

in his exodus. Knowing that Moroni had a group with him is consistent with President Brigham Young's statement when he announced the building of the St. George temple, that ".....this spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it (the temple) but we can and will build it for them."

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Remember that Moroni traveled for several decades before depositing the plates in Cumorah

I had to go back to my Book of Mormon.

Mormon hides the plates in the "hill Cumorah" and gives a few plates to Moroni (Mormon 6:6) and Moroni is close enough to finish his fathers writings and bury the small number of plates with the rest of them. How far would he haved traveled if the bulk of the plates are in a single location and wanted to place the remainder of the writings with the bulk of common items? (Read Mormon 8:1-8)

Moroni hides the the plates he has in the earth because he does not know out long he will servive (Mormon 8:4). Moroni may have pulled the plates he was writing on a second time (Moroni 1:1). Where did he hide the plates? Would he have hide the records he had with him where the rest of the records were that his father hide?

Why would Moroni pull the records from hiding after his father hide them? How did Moroni hide himself from the Lamanites while dragging the Nephite histories with him? Would pulling the records be consistant with the reason his father hide them (Mormon 6:6)?

Why is it that the records Moroni had and translated were hide in the hill Cumorah where Joseph Smith was told they were?

Edited by Speakzeasy
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These may be dumb questions, but I'll ask anyway.

Didn't Moroni bury the plates in the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York? Doesn't that mean that Moroni probably didn't live in Central America?

Sorry if I'm confused, but aren't you the one who has decided, based on internet searches and no less an authority than Fawn Brodie, that the Church is false? If so, why are you bothering to comment on this thread at all?

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Sorry if I'm confused, but aren't you the one who has decided, based on internet searches and no less an authority than Fawn Brodie, that the Church is false? If so, why are you bothering to comment on this thread at all?

I think it's interesting. Am I not allowed to be here just because I don't believe any of it?

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I think it's interesting. Am I not allowed to be here just because I don't believe any of it?

Did I say you weren't allowed? I don't think I said that. On rereading what I wrote, I can't see that I said that. But perhaps I did. Could you just point that part out to me, so I can learn to avoid it in the future?

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Remember that Moroni traveled for several decades before depositing the plates in Cumorah, this was more than enough time to make the trek. There have been documented cases of others doing this in less than a year.

An interesting bit on this topic can be found in a book by John Lund.

"Two maps showing Moroni's travels from Central America to Palmyra, New York were produced by two contemporaries of the prophet who said that their information came from Joseph Smith himself. Patriarch Wm. McBride and Brother Andrew M. Hamilton, both of whom settled in the Richfield, Utah area credited Joseph Smith with teaching them that the Land of Bountiful mentioned in the Book of Mormon was in Central America. He also taught them that Moroni had dedicated several temple sites during his long journey. Moroni

carried with him what Joseph Smith referred to as the "other things" which were found buried with the gold plates. These included the Urim and Thummin, the breastplate and the sword of Laban. The plates themselves weighed about 50 to 60 pounds.

I believe those maps show the location were the kinderhook plates were buried. Why do you think Moroni went there?

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I disagree. Many have mocked the Book of Mormon for claiming "walled cities" in the Americas, no doubt envisioning Italian-style stone wall fortifications. Yet here we have a reconstruction of a walled city, very much as described in the Book of Mormon.

There's also a whole heckuva a lot of civilizations (including several with actual walled cities) in Meso & South America that most people are just clueless about.

I don't have my mesoamerican anthropology book handy... But I'll snap some pics of it and upload some of them once I'm back home.

Some are utterly amaaaaaazing... Abandoned cities (walled, concentric) when rivers changed, or "other" reasons (aka lots of speculation because we don't really know, or war/plague/disease/famine). I had no idea how many real, honest to Gd CITIES, and civilizations existed (Both in the Americas, and pre-Egyptian during the 10,000 years of "silence" between hunter gatherers & ancient Egypt) before I took this class. Mind. Blowing. Not to mention the cotton growing/weaving on the coast below the Andes... Where people actually RODE (most of Meso & South America riding and roads made no sense, too much vertical traversing).

I mean, we've all heard of the big3 (Maya, Toltec, Aztec)... But that there were DOZENS of others... And that we're still finding them (terrain + Jungle + massive climate change + not knowing how to translate most writing systems + modern day politics = we're just scratching the surface of what's out there)... Is just really really exciting.

Q

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Again it is apples and oranges. You are missing the concept of two different peoples: Nephites and Lamanites.

If you wish an analogy, you would need to say there was a walled city in ancient Florence Italy, and then 1500 years later we find another walled city in Hamburg, Germany.

They are not necessarily related. While in the general vicinity, they are separated by time and people.

I am not sure this works. Moroni built the wall to defend against the Lamanites. How could the Lamanites not have learn about building for defense?

If somebody looked about 15 minutes and 49 seconds into the introduction, part one, of the series that is narrated by James Burke and is linked to in a previous post on this thread, one would find that something that took place 3000 years ago stills effects us today. In fact we still use the geometry today. The Ionians got the triangle from the Egyptians and used it for maritime navigational purposes.

We still use Roman construction methods today from 2000 years ago. We are not Roman, we do not live in Europe, and most of us learn about the Roman Empire from what we read. We have picked up things from the Greeks (as did the Romans), Germans, Arabs, etc. from hundreds and thousands of years ago. So throw it all out, and learn only from what the Americans know from 1620 or was it 1783? Which ever date you wish to start from. But nearly all the information that the Americans learn and expanded upon came from somebody else, usually from somebody from a foreign country. And usually from an idea that was built upon over time. Hmmmm . . . . Why is it that the Lamanites could not pick up wall building for defense purposes from the Nephites?

Yes, they are different groups. However, they interacted with each other. They knew each other and learn from each other. They fought with each other. Why then is it then that the Lamanites did not learn from years and generations of battles from the Nephites?

Edited by Speakzeasy
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Again, you miss the point: Book of Mormon critics contend THERE WERE NO WALLED CITIES IN PRECOLUMBIAN AMERICA, and no walled cities anywhere in the world of the type described in the Book of Mormon. They are entirely a work of fiction.

Suddenly, lo and behold! Walled cities -- IN THE AMERICAS! Not just in the Americas, but in Central America, the same general area where the Book of Mormon is thought by many to have taken place!

I agree.

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