Do Mormons Believe God Was Once a Man?

[jinc1019]

Actually that is a belief many Christians and Jews have, but isn't correct.

We have two versions of the Creation in the book of Genesis. Neither of the stories requires creation ex nihilo (God creating things from nothing). Instead, they suggest God is creating earth from stuff that is already there.

Then, we have Isaiah sharing an ancient Sumerian Epic, where God has to slay the Dragon/Leviathan/Chaos in order to bring Order into the world. This concept was obviously believed by the apostle John, who continued the tradition by again having the Dragon slain at the end of the World, when complete order would be established on earth.

LDS believe that matter is eternal along with God. Does probably does not create ex nihilo, but forms things from matter that already exists. Science tends to agree with the permanence of matter in some form. Even the Big Bang was a creation out of everything (and not the nothing that some Creationists claim). It may be that God began the Big Bang, but it occurred with matter that already existed in the form of a singularity.

But how can matter exist forever...it must have been created at some point by something!

[jinc1019]

Joseph DID teach it. The problem is, he only spoke of it on two occasions, the King Follett Discourse being the best known. Unfortunately, while he gave us much to ponder, he did not give a lot of details on how it all works. So, much of what is spoken of on the topic of God having been a man and has his own father, etc., is highly speculative.

That said, the Church still holds to the concept, even though we do not have additional revelation on it. In this year's Adult manual for Priesthood and Relief Society, President Lorenzo Snow is quoted saying the well known couplet: "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become". We have doctrine regarding man being saved and exalted, becoming like God and (as John the Revelator stated) being able to sit down on God's throne with him. However, beyond those two brief speeches by Joseph Smith and the example of Jesus, we do not have details on God once being man.

Thank you for clearing this up!

[bytebear]

"In the beginning..." was only the beginning of this Earth. We are a link in an infinite chain that goes forever back and forever forward. God has created infinite worlds and will create an infinite more.

But how can matter exist forever...it must have been created at some point by something!

No, matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can be converted to energy and back to matter, but it cannot be destroyed. This is a fact of physics and science. And it is our belief as well.

There is an infinite amount of matter. God will never run out of matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

You see, your spirit is matter, and you are an infinite being. You have no beginning or end, but are transformed by God, given a physical form, will die, and ultimately be resurrected into a perfect physical form. This is your destiny. You are matter, and you are eternal.

[jinc1019]

"In the beginning..." was only the beginning of this Earth. We are a link in an infinite chain that goes forever back and forever forward. God has created infinite worlds and will create an infinite more.

No, matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can be converted to energy and back to matter, but it cannot be destroyed. This is a fact of physics and science. And it is our belief as well.

There is an infinite amount of matter. God will never run out of matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

You see, your spirit is matter, and you are an infinite being. You have no beginning or end, but are transformed by God, given a physical form, will die, and ultimately be resurrected into a perfect physical form. This is your destiny. You are matter, and you are eternal.

No, Matter MUST be created...otherwise it's impossible for matter to exist. The very fact that matter exists is proof that it was created. This is common sense.

With all of that said, I tend NOT to rule things out. I think the Mormon perspective on all of this is really unique and, in some ways, more thought out than the orthodox Protestant perspective. Catholics and Orthodox have also dealt with these issues as well, but neither of them claim Divine revelation like Mormons do (on this issue).

Thank you very much for sharing this.

[Lakumi]

Okay, okay, be careful here.

Anything outside of THIS God is non-canonical and are merely extrapolations. It may or may not be true.

As far as has been revealed, we have THIS Universe and THIS God. And as far as has been revealed, this God has always been God.

So, you are free to your own extrapolations on how he became God. God having once been man is as true or false as God being the Supreme Chancellor of a planet that may or may not be called Coruscant...

please tell me there is no Jar Jar Binks in heaven

I always thought, as a child and even still, that we can't be the best creatures a supreme being could make.

We suck:lol:

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by jinc1019

But how can matter exist forever...it must have been created at some point by something!

You run under the assumption that something must create everything else. Why? We could just as easily ask what created God in the first place? Traditional Christians will tell us that God always existed. But they cannot say how he can be forever, and nothing else can be. Science, OTOH, shows us that matter is eternal.

[bytebear]

No, Matter MUST be created...otherwise it's impossible for matter to exist. The very fact that matter exists is proof that it was created. This is common sense.

With all of that said, I tend NOT to rule things out. I think the Mormon perspective on all of this is really unique and, in some ways, more thought out than the orthodox Protestant perspective. Catholics and Orthodox have also dealt with these issues as well, but neither of them claim Divine revelation like Mormons do (on this issue).

Thank you very much for sharing this.

So God MUST be created... otherwise it's imposable for God to exist. So who created God?

[rameumptom]

Currently, there is a symposium on Mormonism and Science going on in Utah, and live broadcast here:

This morning, they had a scientist talking about the Big Bang, and how it supports Joseph Smith's teachings, including that matter/energy are eternal. We need to see how our own faith's teachings (and our own personal beliefs) match up to science and religion.

[jinc1019]

The Bible seems rather clear that God is eternal: Ten Bible Verses: God is eternal | Thoughtful Faith

As such, it stands to reason that God has always existed, even before all other things were created, as the lone entity (if you can even call Him that) that did not require a creator.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but it also happens to be the view held by the majority of Jews, Christians, and even Muslims since there were Jews, Christians, or Muslims. I think it makes sense, I think it's scriptural, and I have a hard time believing anything else could logically exist.

With that said, I realize I am a fallible human being and could be wrong.

[rameumptom]

But what does the term "eternal" mean? Does it mean forever, as modern people think? Or does it just mean a very long time, as ancient Hebrews and Christians believed?

I believe God to be Eternal, as well. Whether he has always been in his current state, I do not know. For example, Jesus is God, yet at one time he was also mortal. To me, this means God's state can change.

[jinc1019]

But what does the term "eternal" mean? Does it mean forever, as modern people think? Or does it just mean a very long time, as ancient Hebrews and Christians believed?

I believe God to be Eternal, as well. Whether he has always been in his current state, I do not know. For example, Jesus is God, yet at one time he was also mortal. To me, this means God's state can change.

I have never heard that "eternal" in Hebrew meant "very long." Where did you hear that? I am not saying you are wrong, only that I have never heard it.

[rameumptom]

Try this link, for instance:

Eternal - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

[jinc1019]

Try this link, for instance:

Eternal - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

I will, thank you.

[mnn727]

The Bible seems rather clear that God is eternal:

I have two serious questions for you:

If I was born 58 years ago and if I live forever, having no end, am I eternal?

Why do you believe the Bible to be true?

[jinc1019]

I have two serious questions for you:

If I was born 58 years ago and if I live forever, having no end, am I eternal?

Why do you believe the Bible to be true?

Are you eternal? I would say no. Eternal, as far as I know and have ever known, means everlasting, forever, just like "eternity."

I believe the Bible to be true because I believe the evidence of the early Church is quite profound. It is said that Christianity was built on the backs of martyrs, and I believe that to be true. Many of the earliest leaders of the church (nearly all) were killed in horrific ways for their beliefs. And the evidence (as far as ancient evidence goes) is quite expansive that Jesus really did exist and claimed to be God. Is it possible I am wrong? Yes. I freely admit that. The weight of the evidence, however, says otherwise in my estimation.

The reason I believe the Old Testament is true (and I do believe a great deal of it is true but not in a historical sense) is because Jesus taught that it was true. Without that, I don't think that I would honestly.

Those may not be incredibly enlightening answers, and they are the VERY short version of what I believe and why, but it is a solid summary for the purposes of this forum and it's honest.

[mnn727]

Are you eternal? I would say no. Eternal, as far as I know and have ever known, means everlasting, forever, just like "eternity."

So living forever does not make me eternal?

I believe the Bible to be true because I believe the evidence of the early Church is quite profound. It is said that Christianity was built on the backs of martyrs, and I believe that to be true. Many of the earliest leaders of the church (nearly all) were killed in horrific ways for their beliefs.

You mean like these? (not all inclusive, just a few names from a quick google search)

Death date Name Cause of death

01/07/1832 Joseph B. Brackenbury (missionary) Poisoning

10/25/1838 Gideon Carter Killed in battle

10/25/1838 Patrick O'Banion Killed in battle by John Lockhart

10/25/1838 David W. Patten (apostle) Killed in battle

10/30/1838 Hiram Abbott Massacre

10/30/1838 Elias Benner Massacre

10/30/1838 John Byers Massacre

10/30/1838 Alexander Campbell Massacre

10/30/1838 Simon Cox Massacre

10/30/1838 Josiah Fuller Massacre

10/30/1838 Austin Hammer Massacre

10/30/1838 John Lee Massacre

10/30/1838 Benjamin Lewis Massacre

10/30/1838 Thomas McBride Massacre; shot by Jacob Rogers; body hacked apart with a corn knife

November 1838 Charles Merrick Massacre; died about 4 weeks afterward from wounds

10/30/1838 Levi Newton Merrick Massacre

10/30/1838 William Napier Massacre

10/30/1838 George S. Richards Massacre

10/30/1838 Sardius Smith Massacre; top of skull blown off from musket shot by William Reynolds

10/30/1838 Warren Smith Massacre

10/30/1838 John York Massacre

05/27/1840 Edward Partridge (first bishop) Persecution

06/27/1844 Joseph Smith, Jr. Mob assassination

06/27/1844 Hyrum Smith Mob assassination

07/30/1844 Samuel Harrison Smith (one of Eight Witnesses)internal injuries sustained while fleeing a mob on horseback on the day his brothers were murdered

05/13/1857 Parley P. Pratt (apostle) Shot and stabbed by Hector McLean

07/21/1879 Joseph Standing (missionary) Mob murder

08/08/1884 William S. Berry (missionary) Mob assassination

08/08/1884 John H. Gibbs (missionary) Mob assassination

08/08/1884 W. Martin Conder Mob assassination

08/08/1884 John Riley Hutson Mob assassination

* The Battle and massacre they list for late Oct 1838 was due to people attacking them because of their religion and also the Haun's Mill Massacre (also due to their religion).

And the evidence (as far as ancient evidence goes) is quite expansive that Jesus really did exist and claimed to be God.

Perhaps you could provide us some evidence from Jesus' peers outside of the Bible. I've looked for it for decades and never found any proof yet that he existed outside of religious texts. Records of People who actually lived when Jesus did and saw him. Historians all agree that even Josephus was at the most 4 years old when Jesus was crucified. Having known 4 year old's I don't automatically believe what they say. How about census or tax records? The Romans and the Jews were both a record keeping people, yet there is no record of Jesus.

Don't get me wrong, I believe, but certainly not due to any historical records since there are none.

The reason I believe the Old Testament is true (and I do believe a great deal of it is true but not in a historical sense) is because Jesus taught that it was true. Without that, I don't think that I would honestly.

He quotes very small portions of it ( a couple of verses) a couple of times. To me that does not sound like a resounding endorsement of everything in it.

It is nice to know where you're coming from though. Thank you for your reply.

Edited November 11, 2013 by mnn727

[jerome1232]

Both Josephus and Tacitus write of Christ. Tacitus is consdiered a great early historian.

[mnn727]

Both Josephus and Tacitus write of Christ. Tacitus is consdiered a great early historian.

Did you read what I wrote? Josephus was at MOST 4 years old when Christ was crucified.

Tacitus wasn't even born until 56 AD that's 20+ years after Christ was crucified. 5 works of his survive, the first written in 98 AD which is over 60 years after Christ was crucified.

In his Annals, in book 15, chapter 44, written c. 116 AD, there is a passage which refers to Christ, to Pontius Pilate...

A single passage written over 80 years after the Crucifixion and you consider that as historical proof? and contemporary to Christ? Edited November 11, 2013 by mnn727

[Guest]

What makes you think there is more than just this universe? Is that in Mormon scriptures as well?

I'm speculating. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

The Pearl of Great Price is part of Mormon scriptures. There are verses talking about many inhabited worlds that God created. Whether they are in other universes or part of this universe, we don't know.

Whether there are other Gods with their own universes we also don't know. What we do know is we have One God, the creator of our universe.

[jerome1232]

Did you read what I wrote? Josephus was at MOST 4 years old when Christ was crucified.

Tacitus wasn't even born until 56 AD that's 20+ years after Christ was crucified. 5 works of his survive, the first written in 98 AD which is over 60 years after Christ was crucified.

A single passage written over 80 years after the Crucifixion and you consider that as historical proof? and contemporary to Christ?

Yes, I find historians writing about Jesus of Nazareth one generation later to be substantial evidence. Those dates (between 60 to 90 ad) happen to be about when it's estimated that the synoptic gospels were written as well. You say the Jew's and Romans were a record keeping people so we should have records. Very, very little from the time of Jesus survives to this day. We have a single inscription written in Pontius Pilate's lifetime that bears his name. Let that sink in, a single record of a Roman Perfect who ruled for 10 years survives. Jesus of Nazareth would've left far less records behind than a Roman Perfect.

[mnn727]

Yes, I find historians writing about Jesus of Nazareth one generation later to be substantial evidence. Those dates (between 60 to 90 ad) happen to be about when it's estimated that the synoptic gospels were written as well.

Once again, if you read what I wrote: The one passage Tacitus wrote was in 116 AD, not 60 - 90 AD that's not one generation removed, its 2 generations removed bordering on 3.

And actually all the time lines I've seen is more like 35-80 AD for the Gospels.

Paul's letters are believed to be from 38-58 AD

I believe due to faith and the testimony I received. History plays no part whatsoever.

Edited November 12, 2013 by mnn727

[jinc1019]

So living forever does not make me eternal?

You mean like these? (not all inclusive, just a few names from a quick google search)

Death date Name Cause of death

01/07/1832 Joseph B. Brackenbury (missionary) Poisoning

10/25/1838 Gideon Carter Killed in battle

10/25/1838 Patrick O'Banion Killed in battle by John Lockhart

10/25/1838 David W. Patten (apostle) Killed in battle

10/30/1838 Hiram Abbott Massacre

10/30/1838 Elias Benner Massacre

10/30/1838 John Byers Massacre

10/30/1838 Alexander Campbell Massacre

10/30/1838 Simon Cox Massacre

10/30/1838 Josiah Fuller Massacre

10/30/1838 Austin Hammer Massacre

10/30/1838 John Lee Massacre

10/30/1838 Benjamin Lewis Massacre

10/30/1838 Thomas McBride Massacre; shot by Jacob Rogers; body hacked apart with a corn knife

November 1838 Charles Merrick Massacre; died about 4 weeks afterward from wounds

10/30/1838 Levi Newton Merrick Massacre

10/30/1838 William Napier Massacre

10/30/1838 George S. Richards Massacre

10/30/1838 Sardius Smith Massacre; top of skull blown off from musket shot by William Reynolds

10/30/1838 Warren Smith Massacre

10/30/1838 John York Massacre

05/27/1840 Edward Partridge (first bishop) Persecution

06/27/1844 Joseph Smith, Jr. Mob assassination

06/27/1844 Hyrum Smith Mob assassination

07/30/1844 Samuel Harrison Smith (one of Eight Witnesses)internal injuries sustained while fleeing a mob on horseback on the day his brothers were murdered

05/13/1857 Parley P. Pratt (apostle) Shot and stabbed by Hector McLean

07/21/1879 Joseph Standing (missionary) Mob murder

08/08/1884 William S. Berry (missionary) Mob assassination

08/08/1884 John H. Gibbs (missionary) Mob assassination

08/08/1884 W. Martin Conder Mob assassination

08/08/1884 John Riley Hutson Mob assassination

* The Battle and massacre they list for late Oct 1838 was due to people attacking them because of their religion and also the Haun's Mill Massacre (also due to their religion).

Perhaps you could provide us some evidence from Jesus' peers outside of the Bible. I've looked for it for decades and never found any proof yet that he existed outside of religious texts. Records of People who actually lived when Jesus did and saw him. Historians all agree that even Josephus was at the most 4 years old when Jesus was crucified. Having known 4 year old's I don't automatically believe what they say. How about census or tax records? The Romans and the Jews were both a record keeping people, yet there is no record of Jesus.

Don't get me wrong, I believe, but certainly not due to any historical records since there are none.

He quotes very small portions of it ( a couple of verses) a couple of times. To me that does not sound like a resounding endorsement of everything in it.

It is nice to know where you're coming from though. Thank you for your reply.

First, your definition of eternal builds into it quite a bit of assumptions. First of all, you are assuming "eternal" means "lasting forever from this point forward." You could make the argument that you ARE eternal based on that understanding. However, my understanding of "eternal," which also appears in the dictionary, is everlasting, perpetually in existence...which essentially means ALWAYS in existence. Even if your belief about being conceived directly by God as a spirit is true, you are not eternal because you were definitely created at ONE point in time. That's why most things are seemingly eternal and only one thing...God...is actually eternal.

Of course, my response builds in numerous assumptions of my own.

Second, you are absolutely correct that NUMEROUS followers of Jesus Christ who believed Joseph Smith was a true prophet died for their beliefs. This is, in my opinion, evidence in favor of Mormonism! However, by itself, it doesn't prove anything. Coupled with other historical factors, it is quite powerful.

Third, you are quite right that there are very few written historical records OUTSIDE of religious texts which talk about Jesus. However, we have access to VERY few written records from that period at all, especially secular written records, so it's very difficult to find the kind of information you are talking about here. Israel was a relatively unimportant part of the ancient world at the time of Christ and many of their records were likely destroyed over the years given the many wars that existed in that region (especially between Christians and Muslims later on).

Fourth, your argument that no record of Jesus exists outside of religious texts is really a misleading point. Obviously all those who believed Jesus was God and wrote about Jesus wrote "religious" texts and all those who didn't believe in Jesus would not have cared who he was...he would just been another false Jewish prophet. There were several and Romans and secular authorities had no reason to remain interested in him after Jesus was dead. Neither did the non-believing Jewish authorities.

Fifth, while you are right that outside of the Gospels there are no written records of Jesus, there are MANY written records by those who knew Apostles, and many of those early church fathers were murdered for their beliefs as well. I would say that's pretty good evidence Jesus actually existed and the Resurrection story reported by the Apostles, at the very least, came from the Apostles.

[jinc1019]

Yes, I find historians writing about Jesus of Nazareth one generation later to be substantial evidence. Those dates (between 60 to 90 ad) happen to be about when it's estimated that the synoptic gospels were written as well. You say the Jew's and Romans were a record keeping people so we should have records. Very, very little from the time of Jesus survives to this day. We have a single inscription written in Pontius Pilate's lifetime that bears his name. Let that sink in, a single record of a Roman Perfect who ruled for 10 years survives. Jesus of Nazareth would've left far less records behind than a Roman Perfect.

I totally agree with this.

[bytebear]

One of the aspects of LDS theology is that it spans both the Old and New Testament. The Old Testament isn't just a bunch of old stories, but there are key themes, and important covenants that are still in place and we are bound by.

[FunkyTown]

The title says it all.

If this is true, could someone elaborate? Also, could the question be answered: If God was once a man, who made God?

Hi Jinc,

The King Follett discourses are an interesting read, but 'God being once a man' isn't unique to the LDS faith: Baptists, Catholics and the rest all believe it. The difference is really in timing.

We believe Jesus and God are two separate individuals.

Jesus was perfect from birth.

Note that, according to the bible, being perfect does not imply he was all-knowing: Luke 2:52 says:

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and Man.

An increase in Wisdom shows that there were changes that took place in his earthly ministry, and increasing in favour with not just Man but God also suggests changes. As for whether God had done the same thing as His son at some point, it's possible:

John 5:19:

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise

What does all this mean?

1) Jesus was perfect from birth. We - You, me and everyone on this board, were not perfect from birth.

2) Jesus did only what his Father in Heaven did.

3) Jesus came to Earth to fulfil all righteousness - Being baptized, etc.

If Jesus and God are separate beings, then it certainly implies he did so elsewhere, but the truth is we don't know what happened before this world or what God has planned for after this world. We have hints, suggestions and the like, but we have no absolute knowledge.

I'm always uneasy with these types of topics - Inevitably there is a ton of guesswork sprinkled with scripture. It seems too close to Priestcraft, with each person sure their interpretation is right. I believe in God. I believe in His son. I am grateful for their role in my life and their love for me.

Beyond that, I trust that God will reveal more when He's ready.