Financially irresponsible spouse

[Mudfisher]

I wrote here a year ago about missing 4 months of tithing due to my wife's financial recklessness. Married 12 years, several kids. Basically she spent all my money, maxed our credit cards, and even obtained secret credit cards totaling $12,000. We saw the bishop and worked the tithing out. He set us up with an LDS counselor and encouraged us to pay for part of the cost. We attended counseling together a few times and then she went alone for 9 months.

Things improved. We separated finances etc per the therapist. I pay all the bills etc and I transfer $ into her separate acct for gas etc. We got back on track financially, with some minor setbacks. We since moved to a new area and she has attended the church addiction recovery class every week (spending addiction).

Fast forward to today. I work two jobs now to pay off our debt burden do I am very busy and rarely home, often too exhausted to attend church. I just realized my wife spent $1900 from Nov 1 to Nov 20 (yesterday). She has been taking my debit card without permission and going shopping for completely unnessesary stuff. And she has been logging onto my acct online and transfering money into her acct. Zero of that $1900 was for groceries or bills. When confronted she could not tell me what she spent it on. No major purchases. I did not notice the spending because I was working so much I didn't have time to keep up.

That $ was going to be used to pay off her credit card debt and go towards our "savings". Besides the obvious betrayal of trust, I am beyond livid that she blew so much money that I worked so hard for.

I love her. But I can't go on like this. I'm working 2 full time jobs to support her addiction, and I'm done. We didn't have time to really discuss this yesterday because I had to work back to back double shifts. We argued for a half hour and I had to leave.

I don't even know where to go from here. I have never spoken of divorce because that's not what I want, but I think it's time to have that discussion. I am dreading going home tomorrow and having to deal with this. I'm so tired of this.

I have forgiven her for her faults repeatedly, but this repetitive cycle of her messing up and I have to pay the consequences (literally) has got to stop. I've already wasted far too much of my life working overtime to correct her overspending. This has been the direct cause of many arguments over and over again. I have missed large portions of my children's childhoods (holding babies, attending little league games, FHE, tucking kids into bed, being home for dinner, etc) because I'm always at work. Meanwhile I usually sacrifice my needs and wants so I can work overtime.

I HATE living this way. Pray for us!

Edited November 22, 2013 by Mudfisher

[skippy740]

Before you discuss divorce, I would recommend that you should have your accounts at separate banking institutions. This should reduce the ability to transfer funds without your consent. It's not enough to just separate finances. You should have your accounts ONLY in your name, and she should have her accounts in just her name.

When you want to transfer funds from your account to hers... write her a check. Yes, it's all 'old-school'... but high-tech will only hinder you. In addition, change your PIN number on your debit card. It won't stop the swipe & sign transactions... but it's another step.

Don't set up any new accounts to make electronic transfers to. This way, the only way to transfer funds is via check. If she forges a check to get funds... now you've got a real problem AND a paper-trail using the forged check.

Set up a new user ID and password combination for your new account at your new bank or credit union that she can't have, know, or guess. Scripture references make great passwords.

Even if divorce is down the line, you'll still need to do this. Might as well do it now.

[Mudfisher]

I worked so much the past two months, and she was previously doing well not spending, I thought I would surprise her with something nice, an anniversary gift: new upgraded smartphones and a planned overnighter at a nice bed and breakfast with a babysitter arranged for the kids at home. I made all the arrangements and told her a few weeks early. Only now to discover she wasted $1900 in the last 3 weeks. I'm discusted now at the thought of spending even more money on her.Am I justified cancelling the reservations? Should I cancel Christmas gifts for the family this year since gifts are a luxery and paying off her debt is a necessity? I am SO ANGRY!

[Guest]

Tough boat to be in Mudfisher! This, in some way, can be worse than infidelity because it affects you directly both physically, mentally, and spiritually. Make sure she keeps going to addiction recovery class.

In the whole scheme of things - this is a setback. Like most, if not all, addicts go through. And like most addicts, there's really no "cured" state. Only success at establishing control. Because, a lot of times, this desire is still alive in most addicts. The successful ones are not "cured" (the desire goes away), they just found a way to exert really strong control over the desire. With your wife, she slipped up and WHAM you're back to square one. Porn addiction, at least, is not as physically invasive to the spouse as spending addiction is.

The thing is - you can't really let up on your control. EVER. It doesn't matter if you've had no incidences for 10 years. You can't let up. You have to be able to protect yourself and your children. In this sense, treat her financial-self like you would a stranger... don't give her access to your online accounts and don't give her access to your wallet. She needs to pay for everything with cash that you give her as an allowance. She needs to see that strict boundary. Cards have no visible boundaries. You just swipe and swipe not knowing how much you're spending. Cash is very tangible. It has a number on the face of the paper that you have to match up with the price of your purchase. And when it's gone, it is gone. It is a very visible boundary.

As for you... you need to give yourself some breathing room. Maybe you can send this new debt to a place like Care One Credit so you can put it in a manageable payment plan that you can see the end date of. And then you can find your wife work to earn some money. Even babysitting can make good "breathing room" money.

As for Christmas gifts... you don't need to spend much money for Christmas gifts. I'm right now making some Sharpie Mugs to give to everybody as presents. I got plain colored ceramic mugs for $3.99 a piece at Target. And then I went to town with decorating it with Sharpie Permanent Markers of different colors. I put it in the oven the next day (to give the sharpie time to dry), then turned on the oven set to 425 degrees Fahrenheit. I set the timer at 30 minutes after the oven reached 425 and then turned off the oven. I left the mugs there until they all cooled off (overnight). And voila - personalized mugs! Perfect for soup or hot chocolate or chili. I'm giving this to everybody young and old. You can even get the mugs from the Dollar Store! And you can even get your wife to do all the work!

Hope this helps.

[person122]

I like the others suggestions. She has relapsed. Time to cut her off and let her detox for awhile. I will pray for you and your wife. Go to the temple (if possible). I understand the working situation because my dad worked a lot also. Do as many things as you can. There us power in there.

[Quin]

Specifically to canceling Christmas...

Absolutely not.

Here's why

1) Thats shaming your wife to her children.

2) Thats involving your children in marital difficulties / grown up matters

3) Thats seeking their anger and condemnation as a weapon

Leave your children OUT of your marriage problems.

Imagine a friend of yours wants to give his children all the torrid details of his wife's affair.

Imagine a friend of yours waits to yell at her husband and call him names until the kids are home/awake. Never saving arguments for when the kids are asleep,or at school.

Same thing.

Except worse.

I'm not saying that what she did is okay, or even not divorce worthy... But while it bites to take the high road with your kids in divorce (or difficulty) DO SO. Choose the high road. Don't put them in the middle, or try to alienate them from one parent, or use them as a weapon against your spouse. Period. Ever. They don't deserve that.

I've been that angry.

It's a hard thing not to do.

(Especially when your spouse is talking badly about you to your kids, which was my case)

But it's worth it.

They're worth it.

Q

[Leah]

I wrote here a year ago about missing 4 months of tithing due to my wife's financial recklessness. Married 12 years, several kids. Basically she spent all my money, maxed our credit cards, and even obtained secret credit cards totaling $12,000. We saw the bishop and worked the tithing out. He set us up with an LDS counselor and encouraged us to pay for part of the cost. We attended counseling together a few times and then she went alone for 9 months.

Things improved. We separated finances etc per the therapist. I pay all the bills etc and I transfer $ into her separate acct for gas etc. We got back on track financially, with some minor setbacks. We since moved to a new area and she has attended the church addiction recovery class every week (spending addiction).

Fast forward to today. I work two jobs now to pay off our debt burden do I am very busy and rarely home, often too exhausted to attend church. I just realized my wife spent $1900 from Nov 1 to Nov 20 (yesterday). She has been taking my debit card without permission and going shopping for completely unnessesary stuff. And she has been logging onto my acct online and transfering money into her acct. Zero of that $1900 was for groceries or bills. When confronted she could not tell me what she spent it on. No major purchases. I did not notice the spending because I was working so much I didn't have time to keep up.

That $ was going to be used to pay off her credit card debt and go towards our "savings". Besides the obvious betrayal of trust, I am beyond livid that she blew so much money that I worked so hard for.

I love her. But I can't go on like this. I'm working 2 full time jobs to support her addiction, and I'm done. We didn't have time to really discuss this yesterday because I had to work back to back double shifts. We argued for a half hour and I had to leave.

I don't even know where to go from here. I have never spoken of divorce because that's not what I want, but I think it's time to have that discussion. I am dreading going home tomorrow and having to deal with this. I'm so tired of this.

I have forgiven her for her faults repeatedly, but this repetitive cycle of her messing up and I have to pay the consequences (literally) has got to stop. I've already wasted far too much of my life working overtime to correct her overspending. This has been the direct cause of many arguments over and over again. I have missed large portions of my children's childhoods (holding babies, attending little league games, FHE, tucking kids into bed, being home for dinner, etc) because I'm always at work. Meanwhile I usually sacrifice my needs and wants so I can work overtime.

I HATE living this way. Pray for us!

Two things I want to comment on.

Being "too exhausted" to go to church. I understand that that feels like as I have a serious medical condition that leaves me feeling the same way at the end of the week. My advice for you? Go to church anyway.

Why did your wife have access to your debit card? Especially given her spending history? Why was that not tucked safely away in your wallet?

Why did she have online access? Did no one advise you to make sure she had no access to money in these ways? I would think that would have been a very basic step. If you stay married (which it sounds like you have no interest in doing), these are steps you need to take immediately.

You say she had been doing well for a while. Did you expect her to not have any slip-ups? What do the professionals have to say about that? Have you set a time limit for her to "get over" this behavior?

Divorce is brutal on children. Counsel with the professionals and your bishop. There may still be hope.

And please do not "cancel" Christmas! That is punishing your children for your wife's behavior. You can give them a loving Christmas without spending a lot of money.

[Leah]

One more thought.....

Did anything happen three weeks ago that might have triggered an emotional crisis for her?

[mrmarklin]

Sorry, Mudfisher about your problems. I've had similar.

We have separate checking accounts, and I've cut her credit cards to one. Those charges come out of her allowance...yes, had to do that too.

Basically had to say that if she runs up a tab somewhere, or charges more than her allowance on the CC (that gets paid off every month-no interest), its divorce time. I really got past caring about her irresponsibility.

By dividing the finances this way (I pay all the bills, she pays only her phone--she likes to run that up too) we have been able to work together. Not without a lot of kicking and screaming about "not being a real marraige without a joint account" and "being treated as a child", etc etc. etc.

[Backroads]

I recall your original post and I'm so sorry about this set-back!

Yes, you need breathing room... perhaps even your own non-work time away from your wife. Maybe a daddy and kids weekend?

As for Christmas...

No, do not cancel presents, but by all means go for a cheaper budget-friendly Christmas.

[Normandy]

I wouldn't cancel Christmas. Just do cheaper options.

Addicts have set backs. Don't give up on her.

Does the counselor feel she has a trigger? Maybe something triggered her need to spend again?

[Mudfisher]

Our counselor had me completely remove my wife from every acct at first, new passwords, etc. I gave her caSh only, per the counselor. After a month the counselor had my wife open her own separate bank acct so I could transfer money to her debit card. After a few months my wife started transfering money herself from my acct to hers for family related expenses as long as she notified me immediately, approved by the counselor. Next step was she was allowed to borrow my card for gas, and school clothes shopping because it was easier than all these silly transfers between accts when I was working so many long hours.

She was doing good. Then we short sold our house (due to the housing market bubble) and moved. She did good the first month, then started spending more than necessary last month and we had an argument over it. She started taking my card out of my wallet without telling me at all, and transfering money from my acct to hers like crazy. And here we are.

Our lds counselor's plan was to ease my wife back into a trustful partnership, and each step was approved by her when I went to her sessions once a month.

I'm no expert at this. I do not want these restrictions. I hate being a parent to her. I hate fighting. Am I doing this right? I don't know, I'm not supposed to have to do it this way, I have no idea! I'm just trying to do what our counselor and pretty much every expert ssys to do.

I came home today and she was very upset with me because I changed all my passwords again etc. She says I am controlling and make her beg for money. She puts the blame on me for not being a partner etc, basically emotionally kicking and screaming for taking away her access. The argument went just like all the other ones. She blamed ME for being so busy working all the time, and said I should worry more about fixing her than fixing the $12,000 in credit card debt.

She wants us to both go back to our old lds counselor 1.5 hours drive each way. While I'm not against it, I really don't want to spend one of my only 2 days off next week doing that. I will of course if it will save our marriage, but at the same time we just go round and round in this cycle of spending and counseling.

I have no intention of involving our kids, I just meant cutting waaaay back on Christmas.

Should I cancel our anniversary bed n breakfast trip coming up? If I do, she will blame me for intentionally trying to hurt her emotionally and for punishing her. She will blame me.

I worked 18 hours yesterday, came home to argue, and only ended up with 4 hours sleep. That's about 8 hours sleep over 3 days of back to back double shifts. Yesterday I had to get up extra early to go to the bank and undo the hold on my acct due to too many transfers (from my wife).

[Vort]

By all means, don't cancel Christmas. Just don't exchange any gifts. If your wife complains, well, maybe it's time she witnesses the effects of her actions, not just on her but on the children.

[Normandy]

I wouldn't cancel your anniversary trip, but I wouldn't give her a smartphone either. That's like giving the candy thief a free candy bar.

But your anniversary is worth taking note, and spending time together.

You are doing everything right. It does feel like you're parenting. I feel like I have to parent my husband who is struggling with his own issues. I hate keeping tabs on him and him telling me I am controlling. I also hate that he gets extremely angry at me when he knows he's done wrong and I'm going to find out quickly. That's human nature to try and defend themselves by lashing out at you -- the guy who's about to point out the wrong they've done.

Why does she want to go back to the old counselor?

[Just_A_Guy]

OK, maybe I'm just screwy here--but what's with all these supposedly recovering addicts lashing out at the "controlling" behavior of the people who love them?

It strikes me that the truly penitent attitude of someone who has shown addictive behavior and needs to be babysat because of it, is:

"Of course you don't trust me. I have shown I can't be trusted. Because I love you and understand how deeply my acting out hurts you, I will submit to whatever supervision you feel appropriate."

[Bini]

By all means, don't cancel Christmas. Just don't exchange any gifts. If your wife complains, well, maybe it's time she witnesses the effects of her actions, not just on her but on the children.

Well said.

Christmas need not be about gifts, at all, but that's how many of us (myself included) see it.

[Kaelee]

Sounds like she needs to get a job to pay it back. And don't use the kids as an excuse. If they see mommy going off to work to pay for her responsibilities, they will learn from it as well.

[jbeggs]

My wife was a gambling addict and would return our son's diapers so she could play bingo. She would gamble away the last of our money on online poker. I could not have a checking account or a debit card because mysteriously, money would vanish from my account (because she stole it). I would have to pay all our bills with money orders. It was cheaper than paying all the overdrafts. I did everything to stop the behavior. And none of it worked. I couldn't take it anymore. It was not worth all the heartache.

[person122]

said I should worry more about fixing her than fixing the $12,000 in credit card debt.

fixing her? In what way should you "fix" her? Sounds like she is totally in addict mode.

[yjacket]

The key to human behavior is that everyone and I do mean everyone acts in what they perceive to be their own best interest.

Whether that perceived best interest is that the high of getting hammered outweighs the costs of waking up hung-over the next day, or that the good feelings and peace of mind that comes from righteous living outweighs the one-night thrill.

For whatever reason, the high of spending money like a drunken sailor is exceptionally appealing to your wife. In order for her to truly get control of the problem and to be able to go successfully go through addiction recovery, she has to realize that the negative effects of her behavior outweigh the temporary high she gets. Only then will she truly be able go into remission.

Now how that switch occurs is anyone's guess and requires a significant amount of introspection.

Fast forward to today. I work two jobs now to pay off our debt burden do I am very busy and rarely home, often too exhausted to attend church.

This coupled with the cry to "fix me", leads me to believe that your wife might possibly have been lashing out looking for attention and boy does she have your attention now---- the wrong kind of attention but attention none-the-less.

It could be that when things were going better she was feeling more secure and felt a lot of attention and now that you've moved (insecurity), working two jobs not home alot (more insecurity) that her brain and emotions said look if I screw up I know my husband will pay attention to me which is better than not getting any attention right now.

I'm just conjecturing so it could all be a bunch of bunk; but the question is how to afix a positive connotation with not spending like a drunken sailor, a negative connotation to that behavior without reinforcing the negative attention . . . .

Don't know, just my 2 cents.

[Mudfisher]

This was a hot topic of the argument today: We recently sold a bunk bed set we no longer needed after moving, and got $350 for it. She has been wanting to buy a new computer desk with that money. We have a computer table already, we don't need a new one, she admits she just wants a nicer one. I have resisted because we don't NEED to buy brand new furniture for our rental house. Especially considering our credit card debt.

This really upsets her even though we've talked about it a lot. She argues she worked really hard to sell the bunk bed set on craigslist and she deserves to have something nice for once seeing how it won't "cost" anything. Basically a trade.

I asked her if for one second she considered using that $350 to pay off part of the credit card debt we owe. She said she had not, and she does not think the money should be used to pay down the debt.

Then I explained that the only way for us to pay down the debt is for me to do it. When she screws up, I am the one that pays the price to fix it, literally, and also physically and emotionally (working two full time jobs and never being home). She immediately got defensive and said I'm equally to blame and that it's just as hard for her because when I'm gone working 2 full time jobs she is basically a single parent also working twice as hard.

She also accused me today of having an affair. She did this last year too when I first started my 2nd full time job and worked crazy hours. Somehow me working my tail off equals, in her mind, me having an affair. ???

I have read a lot of other posts here about the behavior of spouses with addictions. It seems it's very common for the addict to lash out and accuse the responsible spouse of all kinds of things, including being controlling and not trusting. It's like my wife is trying to find a fault in me so that she can justify her behavior.

With my wife's relapse, do we start over at step one controlling access to money? Or do we start half way somewhere? Taking away her access to our money and accts is like performing an exorcism, she is fighting it and grasping and lashing out at me.

[skippy740]

I had a thought... and it might be a long-shot, but I'm going to give it to you anyway.

I have my own addictions... and spending (used) to be one of them. We just want a "fix" to feel economically powerful to get what we want, when we want it. Once we get cash in our hands, it's like the "ultimate gift certificate". After all, what fun is money... when what we can exchange it for, is much more fun!

Whenever we view the "long-term", we make better decisions today. Whenever we have the mindset towards eternity, it's much more difficult to sin, for example.

This website has CONSUMER-FRIENDLY retirement planning software. Just download the free trial of the couple's version, and play around with it for yourself.

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Look at all the "red" that you both are going to have to come up with to support yourselves. Talk about what the "red" means, and how you are seeing "red" in your current budget because of the spending that is happening today. This is PART of the financial educational process that may need to happen.

However, this is a more "logical" approach, and may not work. But it was a thought I had for you.

***

In regards to being accused of having an affair... you may need to see a psychiatrist or psychologist. There may be more going on mentally than you both know.

[Mudfisher]

I need to see a shrink? Or I need to go with her???

The church counselor we were seeing is a licensed psychotherapist who Initially started seeing my wife for post partum depression and anxiety after our last child. The spending was a pre existing issue, but the depression and anxiety were new issues.

10+ years of marriage has shown me she is not interested in saving a dime for the future. If there is ANY money in our acct she already has a "plan" or two in her head on what to spend it on, down to the last penny, even if she doesn't actually spend it. Trips to Disneyland, furniture, new cars, inviting family to fly out and stay with us, etc.

[yjacket]

From what you've mentioned here my conjuncture is that this issue isn't about money; it's a manifestation of an underlying problem. Fix the underlying issue and the spending issue will be much easier to fix and you won't get as much push-back.

She immediately got defensive and said I'm equally to blame and that it's just as hard for her because when I'm gone working 2 full time jobs she is basically a single parent also working twice as hard.

She also accused me today of having an affair. She did this last year too when I first started my 2nd full time job and worked crazy hours. Somehow me working my tail off equals, in her mind, me having an affair. ???

You need to find a way to reassure her that you still love her even though you are working crazy hours. I don't know if that is giving her a phone call every couple of hours and saying you love her, if it is writing a silly note before you go to work, a date-night. You could simply ask her something to the effect; because of the situation we are in I feel like I have to work 2 jobs, what can I do to reassure you that I love you (without spending money) . What and how can I give you the reassurance you need?

[Sali]

From what you've mentioned here my conjuncture is that this issue isn't about money; it's a manifestation of an underlying problem. Fix the underlying issue and the spending issue will be much easier to fix and you won't get as much push-back.

You need to find a way to reassure her that you still love her even though you are working crazy hours. I don't know if that is giving her a phone call every couple of hours and saying you love her, if it is writing a silly note before you go to work, a date-night. You could simply ask her something to the effect; because of the situation we are in I feel like I have to work 2 jobs, what can I do to reassure you that I love you (without spending money) . What and how can I give you the reassurance you need?

I'm just not sure that she would be reassured though. I believe that she needs to work from within and not expect her husband to 'fix' everything for her. That would be an impossible task for him. She is showing typical symptoms of an addictive personality. She has not yet taken responsibility for this and is still in denial and playing the blame game. This will go on until she reaches the point where she will take responsibility. This may take a lot of counseling, but Mudfisher, you need to protect you and the children in the meantime. Part of the way you can do this is trying to not let her get into your head and manipulate you. Get some counseling for yourself to help you with this. I wish you luck. :)