Apostasy and restoration


Traveler
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There have been throughout the history of man more than one era of apostasy and restoration. What, in your mind, indicates individual and what constitutes global apostasy and how would one identify a restoration (both individual and global).

Also is there a gray area in this matter - where one can navigate without apostasy or need of restoration?

The Traveler

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I would submit that the earliest indication of Apostasy is disunity or tendencies to splinter into various groups. I would suggest that this is also an indication of individual apostasy - a lack of desire to befriend and be with the saints - a lack of conformity with the saints - to speak criticism of the L-rd’s anointed. Likewise a sign of restoration is a feeling or need to find common ground with others of similar belief. For an individual on the path of restoration is a personal desire to spend more time with the saints of G-d - with a realization that there is more than previously realized in common - a lack of feeling a need to criticize the L-rd’s anointed.

So I would caution that the need to express individuality, to be independent, to rely on self or introduce new ideas or change things is all possible signs of apostasy. And the desire to be “one” with the saints and with G-d - to rely on and trust priesthood leadership to fit in and be a part are all signs that individual restoration is possible or taking place.

The Traveler

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I would submit that the earliest indication of Apostasy is disunity or tendencies to splinter into various groups. I would suggest that this is also an indication of individual apostasy - a lack of desire to befriend and be with the saints - a lack of conformity with the saints - to speak criticism of the L-rd’s anointed. Likewise a sign of restoration is a feeling or need to find common ground with others of similar belief. For an individual on the path of restoration is a personal desire to spend more time with the saints of G-d - with a realization that there is more than previously realized in common - a lack of feeling a need to criticize the L-rd’s anointed.

So I would caution that the need to express individuality, to be independent, to rely on self or introduce new ideas or change things is all possible signs of apostasy. And the desire to be “one” with the saints and with G-d - to rely on and trust priesthood leadership to fit in and be a part are all signs that individual restoration is possible or taking place.

The Traveler

I agree, with a caveat: with the section I bold-afied.... When something is so rigid, stagnate, or narrowly confined as not to allow individual integrity and forces an either/or choice.

Q

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Being part of the group is important and I can see Traveler's point that going separate ways can lead to disunity. However, I contend that we all have our own spiritual journey because we all have individual experiences, individual trials and tribulations. This aspect does make our walk with Christ our own, while still being part of a group.

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How does an individual become one with G-d?

This is a most interesting question. Jesus answered by saying we find ourselves when we lose ourselves. And so we have a paradox. The more we concentrate on our individuality the more likely we will lose our individuality. And the more we are willing to sacrifice our individuality for the benefit of others - the greater the value of our individuality will become in the eternal scheme of things.

The Traveler

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How does an individual become one with G-d?

This is a most interesting question. Jesus answered by saying we find ourselves when we lose ourselves. And so we have a paradox. The more we concentrate on our individuality the more likely we will lose our individuality. And the more we are willing to sacrifice our individuality for the benefit of others - the greater the value of our individuality will become in the eternal scheme of things.

The Traveler

Dude, this is a twisted take of that gospel. It doesn't say anywhere in the scriptures that we need to lose our "individuality" in the manner that you're using it here. Our individuality is inherent in the scriptures as we learn that our own individual choices are the only things that we can be judged on. Also, we are called individually into service. Also, we are to have our own individual personal relationship with Christ. And some more - line upon line, precept upon precept... all meant for us to learn our own individual and unique manner of learning.

That gospel that you mention specifies many things none of which is to lose our individuality to find our individuality. (Okay, I may not be using the word individuality in the same manner you are using it. I understand it to mean our own individual selves unique to each other.) That gospel touches on how if we lose our lives for God's sake, then the same shall save it.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, we must put God above all else including our own lives.

Also, if we follow Christ, we need to deny ourselves and take up the cross.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, we have to put aside all temporal things.

Also, everyone that loses houses, fathers, mothers, wives, children, houses, possessions, land, etc. for God's sake, shall receive riches a hundredfold in eternity.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, if these things get in the way of us following Christ, then they must all be put aside because the eternal rewards are much greater than this temporal loss.

The Godhead is very succint in teaching us that all 3 Persons in the Godhead are individuals but they are One in perfection. It is a very important distinction since all 3 persons have their own individual calling in that perfection.

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Dude, this is a twisted take of that gospel. It doesn't say anywhere in the scriptures that we need to lose our "individuality" in the manner that you're using it here. Our individuality is inherent in the scriptures as we learn that our own individual choices are the only things that we can be judged on. Also, we are called individually into service. Also, we are to have our own individual personal relationship with Christ. And some more - line upon line, precept upon precept... all meant for us to learn our own individual and unique manner of learning.

That gospel that you mention specifies many things none of which is to lose our individuality to find our individuality. (Okay, I may not be using the word individuality in the same manner you are using it. I understand it to mean our own individual selves unique to each other.) That gospel touches on how if we lose our lives for God's sake, then the same shall save it.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, we must put God above all else including our own lives.

Also, if we follow Christ, we need to deny ourselves and take up the cross.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, we have to put aside all temporal things.

Also, everyone that loses houses, fathers, mothers, wives, children, houses, possessions, land, etc. for God's sake, shall receive riches a hundredfold in eternity.

- This does not say we need to quit being individuals. Rather, it says, if these things get in the way of us following Christ, then they must all be put aside because the eternal rewards are much greater than this temporal loss.

The Godhead is very succint in teaching us that all 3 Persons in the Godhead are individuals but they are One in perfection. It is a very important distinction since all 3 persons have their own individual calling in that perfection.

Excellent post. But we need to understand what Jesus meant by "self". I see that what is self is the essence of our individuality - that which makes us different from others. Thus self refers to what makes us different individuals. I pointed out that there is a paradox. It concerns that which is different.

For example - many are married but because of differences - they begin to regret marriage and seek divorce. This is because the differences become means of creating a lack of unity. Where as if the differences become the means of adding to each other - the differences become complimentary (logical or) that benefit both. Rather than divisional (logical exclusive or) that divide unity - seeking instead the benefit of just one individual rather than the whole.

Thus the more we seek to justify the individual the less unity there is that justifies anything - It is like the artist that does not display their work - because they do not care for others to enjoy it - or not enjoy it - they care only for their enjoyment. Such artist seldom develop because there is no challenge - the difference between the undisciplined pounding keys on a piano compared to a disciplined concert pianist that can play anyone's compositions. Thus mastering other's compositions - makes us much better - infinitely better at our own. (using music as a type and shadow of divine understanding).

The Traveler

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Good afternoon Traveler. I hope you've been well! :)

How does an individual become one with G-d?

This is a most interesting question. Jesus answered by saying we find ourselves when we lose ourselves. And so we have a paradox. The more we concentrate on our individuality the more likely we will lose our individuality. And the more we are willing to sacrifice our individuality for the benefit of others - the greater the value of our individuality will become in the eternal scheme of things.

The Traveler

We become one with God when we are filled with His Spirit. We become filled with His Spirit when we keep His commandments because we receive a remission of our sins through obedience. We must continually submit to the will of the Father.

We don't have to wait until death to become one with the Godhead.

-Finrock

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I'm convinced that when we are in eternity we will live in perfect unity, while achieving exponentially greater individuality. When we serve others do we not achieve our personal best? Perhaps there is truth in this--when we focus on our individuality, we become selfish and degenerative. When we pursue the love of God and neighbor, individual greatness blossoms without effort.

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How about the apostasy with the jews? They had the gospel, the covenanted people, yet fell into apostasy. This is a good place to look at because its one of the few places we have some information on.

Johns mission,

“For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight says old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power” (D&C; 84:28
“Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law. …The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], pp. 275–76).

A new dispensation is started after an apostasy occurs. For there is not a need for a new dispensation when there is no apostasy. Thats my personal opinon that could change in the future.

How did John wrest the keys from the jews? This occured because the priests, the leaders, etc had become corrupted, and those who were not had no keys or authority. So john "wrested" the keys from them to prepare the way for the Lord.

Did he wrest them because they rejected him? Was it the rejection of John, being the servant to prepare the way for the lord, that caused them to lose the keys, kingdom, power, and glory? Their inability to recognize the truth that was once part of their religion?

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Excellent post. But we need to understand what Jesus meant by "self". I see that what is self is the essence of our individuality - that which makes us different from others. Thus self refers to what makes us different individuals. I pointed out that there is a paradox. It concerns that which is different.

For example - many are married but because of differences - they begin to regret marriage and seek divorce. This is because the differences become means of creating a lack of unity. Where as if the differences become the means of adding to each other - the differences become complimentary (logical or) that benefit both. Rather than divisional (logical exclusive or) that divide unity - seeking instead the benefit of just one individual rather than the whole.

Thus the more we seek to justify the individual the less unity there is that justifies anything - It is like the artist that does not display their work - because they do not care for others to enjoy it - or not enjoy it - they care only for their enjoyment. Such artist seldom develop because there is no challenge - the difference between the undisciplined pounding keys on a piano compared to a disciplined concert pianist that can play anyone's compositions. Thus mastering other's compositions - makes us much better - infinitely better at our own. (using music as a type and shadow of divine understanding).

The Traveler

I still don't quite agree with this. Let's use the marriage in the example. It is not the difference that causes divorce. It is the lack of service (charity). Unity in a marriage is not being the same. It is being one with God. If both husband and wife are alcoholics they are united to each other but not united with God so it is still a bad spot. It is not that we have to lose our individuality to Become One with God. It is that we need to align our will with that of the Father to Become One. And to do that, we must serve our spouses to help them find and stay on that strait and narrow path in their own individual journey because it is in service that our spiritual selves can rise above our temporal one.

This service is the same thing that is lacking in the pianist/artist that hides their talent under a bushel. They put themselves above others. Service/humility/LOVE is not the act of losing our individuality. It is using our individual and unique God-given talents in the service of others.

Edited by anatess
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Elect, when the D&C mentions "the Jews," I'm guessing the reference is to the religious hierarchy--the teachers of the law (rabbis). Am I right? After all, at its foundation, the church was a Jewish sect.

Great question I don't know the answer. Titles can be used in many different ways.

I would assume in that reference I posted it, the jews, refers to jerusalem, or judah. All the people as it was "the kingdom". But when it brings the idea of john overthrowing it, it refers specically to what you said, the teachers of the law.

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I think the question answered in the OP is easily answered. We are in a state of apostasy if we do not have a direct connection to heaven.

Mormon said that when we have faith, angels "appear" and minister to us. Joseph stated that,

"For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;"

In other words, when we have faith, the fruit of that faith is indicated by revelations, visions, dreams, and angels that "appear" and minister to us. These things are necessary.

If we do not see these things, we are in a state of apostasy. We sing in our hymns, "The visions and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth." Are these experiences ours?

We cannot ride into heaven on the coat tails of other people's experiences. Each of us must come to know God for ourselves. The experiences and faith of others does not save us.

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

In order to be saved, we must receive knowledge. In the scriptures we read this.

"for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith."

When we have faith, we receive the knowledge of God. This comes in the form described above. If we have not faith, we are in a state of apostasy.

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I think the question answered in the OP is easily answered. We are in a state of apostasy if we do not have a direct connection to heaven.

Mormon said that when we have faith, angels "appear" and minister to us. Joseph stated that,

"For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;"

In other words, when we have faith, the fruit of that faith is indicated by revelations, visions, dreams, and angels that "appear" and minister to us. These things are necessary.

If we do not see these things, we are in a state of apostasy. We sing in our hymns, "The visions and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth." Are these experiences ours?

We cannot ride into heaven on the coat tails of other people's experiences. Each of us must come to know God for ourselves. The experiences and faith of others does not save us.

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

In order to be saved, we must receive knowledge. In the scriptures we read this.

"for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith."

When we have faith, we receive the knowledge of God. This comes in the form described above. If we have not faith, we are in a state of apostasy.

Interesting. Thanks for this. I think it applies to this too.

We go through the following stages.

Unbelief

Belief

Faith

Knowledge

Relating Unbelif,

2 nephi 32:7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

Belief

3 Nephi 16:6

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

4 Nephi 1:29

29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.

3 Nephi 16:7

Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

Or as I would say from going from unbelief, which is not understanding knowledge (doctrine) or incorrectly believing "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture" as truth, to belief.

Belief is understanding truth, having had the holy ghost witness all things to us relating to Christ and the father. When we have finally cast off our unbelief.

Faith,

Moroni 7:37...for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

knowledge,

Just a few references.

2 Nephi 30:5

5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.

Jacob 4:12

12 And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

1 Nephi 15:14

14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.

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Interesting. Thanks for this. I think it applies to this too.

We go through the following stages.

Unbelief

Belief

Faith

Knowledge

Relating Unbelif,

Belief

Or as I would say from going from unbelief, which is not understanding knowledge (doctrine) or incorrectly believing "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture" as truth, to belief.

Belief is understanding truth, having had the holy ghost witness all things to us relating to Christ and the father. When we have finally cast off our unbelief.

Faith,

knowledge,

Just a few references.

Wow, your post is fantastic. I read this and felt the truth and power of these scriptures. Thank you!

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I still don't quite agree with this. Let's use the marriage in the example. It is not the difference that causes divorce. It is the lack of service (charity). Unity in a marriage is not being the same. It is being one with God. If both husband and wife are alcoholics they are united to each other but not united with God so it is still a bad spot. It is not that we have to lose our individuality to Become One with God. It is that we need to align our will with that of the Father to Become One. And to do that, we must serve our spouses to help them find and stay on that strait and narrow path in their own individual journey because it is in service that our spiritual selves can rise above our temporal one.

This service is the same thing that is lacking in the pianist/artist that hides their talent under a bushel. They put themselves above others. Service/humility/LOVE is not the act of losing our individuality. It is using our individual and unique God-given talents in the service of others.

My point is to address the results - not to argue the cause - though there must be some relationship. The point is that the focus (priority) on individuality will eventually result in bondage and the loss of individuality. By the very definition of service - is the focus away from the individuality of self to others and their needs. What is even more interesting is that the focus of service of others also has at its core to turn others from selfish individuality to a consciousness of being part of something beyond their individuality and self.

It is this being part of something beyond individual self that sets us free. This is personified in the very nature of G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost, as example in Jesus Christ - our best example of G-d. His entire purpose and focus was not nor is now on his individuality but his service and sacrifice (all he has - including his individuality) for the benefit of others.

I would also submit that you as an individual have nothing to give back to G-d but your individuality. Anything else really is not yours to give.

But the irony of irony is that if you focus on your individuality - you will loos it and will not have the power to give of yourself to G-d or anyone else.

The Traveler

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I'm convinced that when we are in eternity we will live in perfect unity, while achieving exponentially greater individuality. When we serve others do we not achieve our personal best? Perhaps there is truth in this--when we focus on our individuality, we become selfish and degenerative. When we pursue the love of God and neighbor, individual greatness blossoms without effort.

My question to you PC - is why will we live in perfect unity? What must happen to cause perfect unity? And most of all - is it happening now? If unity is not happening now - would it not be delusional to think it will happen; unless, something that is not happening now does happen at some time?

If we do not know or have some vision of what must change - it is likely we are not on that path to change.

The Traveler

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Consider what is to come: Tribulation, the dividing of "sheep" and "goats," the realization of heaven and hell, our seeing God, our own transformation to glorified bodies, as well as minds and hearts that see as God sees. It's easy to be discouraged by the headlines, or even by our own experiences with disunity...but this age is fading, and what lies ahead is exponentially superior to what has gone behind.

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My question to you PC - is why will we live in perfect unity? What must happen to cause perfect unity? And most of all - is it happening now? If unity is not happening now - would it not be delusional to think it will happen; unless, something that is not happening now does happen at some time?

If we do not know or have some vision of what must change - it is likely we are not on that path to change.

The Traveler

Not PC but I love these questions. Does it really TAKE 3-4 generations to become Zioni?

"to become of one heart and one mind".

How do we do that?

When two people have the same purpose they become one heart and one mind.

When two people are entireliy focused on Christ, with an eye single to his glory, having been sanctified through teh blood of Christ, having their blood cleansed through His garments and washed clean, when two people have the same purpose to serve Him in all hazards, in all places, at all times, and Have eternal life, they also become one heart and one mind.

The Lord gave the early saints the united order. They wanted to know WHAT to do, outwards things, lists, items, Do this, this and this, than you can be Zion. It didn't work. What was missing?

They were not united IN Christ. When two people gain an eye single to the Glory of God, are clothed in Charity, they are united in consequence of their actions of being Christlike. They don't need an outwards law for the law has been written in their hearts.

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