The spiritual experiences of others.

[CommanderSouth]

I know I have at least touched on this idea before, but, what should I do to reconcile the spiritual experiences of others than run counter to my own?

Example:

My Brother (Pentecostal), describes experiences with the power of God, and the Holy Spirit, physical manifestations, also describes the same spirit telling him to stay away from the BoM.

I know my brother, and in many ways he is like me, lived as a pentecostal for decades, had no real manifestations of the spirit in the way others around him did, and then BLAMO, feels the spirit physically manifested to him, and still pentecostal.

I don't know what he felt, but I can't shrug it off like I can people I don't know, because I Know my brother and I know he wouldn't lie, this is the same situation I am in with my mother.

What do you all think, where can I turn on this one?

Thanks!

[Roseslipper]

there are good people in all churches and faith. Just love them and dont be hard on them they are entitled to feel the way they want to beleive. Just be a great example to them let them see how the church has changed you. dont argue or fight about differences but u can talk nicely about them give them things to think about. Its hard for me to think that the Spirit of God would tell them bad things about the Book of Mormon but don't tell them that. Ask them if they would be willing to read the book of Mormon or have the misssionary's over, or maybe go to a church function with you. This is a great month for that and that's non threating. Any way have a great and spiritual month!!!..

Edited December 9, 2013 by Roseslipper
spelling lol

[Dravin]

Fundamentally there are three options when people have genuinely opposing spiritual confirmations*:

1) Person A is mistaken in source, understanding, or both.

2) Person B is mistaken in source, understanding, or both.

3) Both are mistaken in source, understanding, or both.

*Person A believes they were told the Book of Mormon is not scripture and Person B believes they were told the Book of Mormon is scripture. If the revelation isn't genuinely opposing but specific or tailored (such as how to deal with your own particular troubled child) the option of both being correct enters the scene. What is and isn't genuinely opposed can be it's own debate, you'll see people classify where things fall differently.

I don't know what he felt, but I can't shrug it off like I can people I don't know, because I Know my brother and I know he wouldn't lie, this is the same situation I am in with my mother.

People can be mistaken without being liars.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Some years back I did some consulting work for the Federal Reserve Bank. While working with them I became interested in money, counterfeit money and the difference. Obviously much of the counterfeit money produced is easy to detect. However, some counterfeits are very difficult - one might even say impossible?

The problem is that regardless of all efforts - whatever is done to make and print official money - the same can be reverse engineered and produced as counterfeit. As I discussed this paradox with a manager within the Federal Reserve Bank he told me that there was a 100% fool proof method of determining what is official money and what is counterfeit. Of course this caught my interest.

As he explained the fool proof method - I had an epiphany that the principle of the method he explained would apply to any effort to distinguish that which is official from its counterfeit. -- In this case a counterfeit spiritual experience.

First - I believe, that you need to begin with yourself and your spiritual experiences and ask how do you "Know" that your experience is official and not counterfeit. Once you are "aware" of what is official and what was necessary for you to achieve your answer - I believe you are prepared to proceed. But it is my opinion that without such knowledge you will be unable to honestly advise your brother. Even if you have access to official spiritual experiences and your brother is deceived with counterfeits.

The next step to to convince your brother that when two possibilities differ with outright contradictions - at least one of the two of necessity must be a counterfeit and likely a very clever counterfeit. But proving one to be counterfeit does not make the other official. Therefore they must apply the exact same test to both - with the same doubts, concerns and attitude.

But I have not yet outlined the fool proof method of determining that which is official from that which is counterfeit. Lets consider what I was told by the Federial Reserve official about money.

One of the claims about US money is the declaration by a particular agency of the US government to oversee official money. This is the treasury department. This department has the power - by law - to declare what is official money and what is counterfeit. So here is the 100% fool proof method - take the money to an official of the US treasury department - what they declare as official is official money and what they declare as counterfeit is counterfeit.

In the case of those thing of religious or spiritual nature - G-d is the legal authority by divine law of what is officially his and what is counterfeit. Now tie problem is to determine if we are addressing G-d or a counterfeit.

Point #1. the official G-d does not lie nor deceive - he will not tell one person one thing and another something different. He is consistent throughout all time and with all people.

Point #2. To receive an answer from G-d one must ask and seek. G-d will not force anyone to receive his wisdom. But a counterfeit will attempt to force counterfeit wisdom.

Point #3 To receive wisdom from G-d one must be obedient to G-d's commandments - this can be a paradox but it is actually a type of bootstrap - or line upon line precept upon precept progression. At any point one is not in compliance with "known" commandments they are of necessity dealing with counterfeit deity.

Point #4. When G-d gives his wisdom he will provide multiple witnesses. An example of this is Genesis 41:32. A singular witness is by point #1 a violation of the official G-d.

The final point I would convey is that all men have agency - and through that agency they can align themselves with the official G-d and his official methods or with a counterfeit G-d and counterfeit methods. We cannot change another's choice by anything within us - including any witness or truth that we offer. But to everyone that has been warned they are commanded to warn their neighbor. In this case their brother.

The Traveler

[estradling75]

The more I learn the more I come to think that God gives high individualized answers based on his foreknowledge of how the person will react. Many will claim that they want the TRUTH from God straight up thinking they can handle it. Maybe they can... or maybe God in his wisdom and compassion says no you can't, I'll give you what you can handle right now.

So adding to Dravin option I would state

4) Person A or Person B is not ready message while the other is

Edited December 9, 2013 by estradling75

[Dravin]

The more I learn the more I come to think that God gives high individualized answers based on his foreknowledge of how the person will react. Many will claim that they want the TRUTH from God straight up thinking they can handle it. Maybe they can... or maybe God in his wisdom and compassion says no you can't, I'll give you what you can handle right now.

So adding to Dravin option I would state

4) Person A or Person B is not ready message while the other is

Thus my important caveat about something being genuinely opposed. I think there is a tendency to take tailored revelation and assume it is of the universal type, the "When my son acted out I prayed and was told to handle it this way. That means that is the way God wants us to handle troubled children." syndrome.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Dravin

[CommanderSouth]

And that seems to be my only out, aside from doubting myself, is that it isn't his time, or it simply isn't the spirit. It's so much easier to doubt myself, as I fully have an out for the central pillar of my testimony...

[Tamrajh]

I would take the time to fully invest in my testimony, ensuring that I understand what the principles are of our church and the atonement (which is a big part of our church). Then I would continue to love my brother and avoid confrontations with him about religion that may become contentious.

He may well have received that inspiration. I did at one time myself but then I ran around in circles trying to understand life and give it purpose. Only when I was done running in circles did I come back and read the BOM for the first time (life long member, didn't read it until my 40s). After reading it I prayed and researched and prayed and researched.

I am now in a much different place than I was twenty years ago when I knew the church wasn't true and the book was mythical. The saying "If God brings you to it, he will bring you through it" can also apply here in that the principle of the statement means he gives you what you can handle when you can handle it. As we progress, we can understand more so he gives us more so we can understand more so he gives us more...

If your brother is in a place to understand there is a God and religion should be a part in his life, that's great. At some point in time he may be ready to read the BOM and get the inspiration that it is true. It may be in this life or it may be in the next but the important thing is to love him, no matter what. That will do more to help him than anything else, IMO.

[Blackmarch]

I know I have at least touched on this idea before, but, what should I do to reconcile the spiritual experiences of others than run counter to my own?

Example:

My Brother (Pentecostal), describes experiences with the power of God, and the Holy Spirit, physical manifestations, also describes the same spirit telling him to stay away from the BoM.

I know my brother, and in many ways he is like me, lived as a pentecostal for decades, had no real manifestations of the spirit in the way others around him did, and then BLAMO, feels the spirit physically manifested to him, and still pentecostal.

I don't know what he felt, but I can't shrug it off like I can people I don't know, because I Know my brother and I know he wouldn't lie, this is the same situation I am in with my mother.

What do you all think, where can I turn on this one?

Thanks!

its between a person and god to suss out what they've experienced. It's possible for folks to misinterpret an experience. IF someone says that then its still our duty to respect them. Sometimes it may be that they are going to have to be called at a later time and need to experience something where they are now or where they are being lead.

[The Folk Prophet]

Have you every had a physical emotional "thrill" from something non-spiritual that seems quasi-spiritual? A great movie moment, a wonderful song bridge, a happy, happy moment in life, etc., etc...

On top of that there's the "disguised as an angel of light" thing, which I believe applies to false spiritual manifestations.

The bottom line is that the spirit will not testify to someone that the BOM is false. But the issue is, if they feel it has, how do you argue the point, right?

You can't. What you can do is testify of the truth and set a continued example. You can try to explain the difference between emotional thrill and spiritual witness, but that's a hard thing to explain, a.k.a explain salt to someone who's never had it. But we testify of truth and we represent that Savior in all our doings and we leave the rest between them and the Lord.

[Tamrajh]

Just curious, how are you dealing with it now that it's been a little while since you first posted. Do you feel any better about the situation?

[Dravin]

Have you every had a physical emotional "thrill" from something non-spiritual that seems quasi-spiritual? A great movie moment, a wonderful song bridge, a happy, happy moment in life, etc., etc...

Indeed, this is why President Hunter said:

I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself.

Link: Teaching, No Greater Call: A Resource Guide for Gospel Teaching Lesson 9: Recognizing and Following the Spirit in Your Teaching

Edited December 24, 2013 by Dravin

[prisonchaplain]

Your question is THE question. As a Pentecostal, I track well with the LDS missionary approach of praying to receive confirmation from the Holy Spirit about the truth of the BoM (or anything, really).

An answer lies in the truth that the Holy Spirit chooses to speak primarily in "a still small voice." He woos and he guides, but seldom overwhelms--never denies our will (agency).

Another answers lies in a promise from God that is Old Testament, New Testament, and BoM--that God will reveal himself to those who diligently seek him. So, encourage your brother in that. And do that yourself. Diligently seek God. If your brother is sincere, and the LDS revelations are true, he will find them. If you are sincere, God will give you certainty about truth, and he will gently direct you away from all else.

Bottom line: Trust the Holy Spirit. We must never quench the Spirit's voice in our own lives, nor in the lives of others.

Edited December 24, 2013 by prisonchaplain

[Quin]

I know I have at least touched on this idea before, but, what should I do to reconcile the spiritual experiences of others than run counter to my own?

Example:

My Brother (Pentecostal), describes experiences with the power of God, and the Holy Spirit, physical manifestations, also describes the same spirit telling him to stay away from the BoM.

I know my brother, and in many ways he is like me, lived as a pentecostal for decades, had no real manifestations of the spirit in the way others around him did, and then BLAMO, feels the spirit physically manifested to him, and still pentecostal.

I don't know what he felt, but I can't shrug it off like I can people I don't know, because I Know my brother and I know he wouldn't lie, this is the same situation I am in with my mother.

What do you all think, where can I turn on this one?

Thanks!

How I do things:

1) Where can you turn? Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost.

2) How to reconcile others' beliefs and our own?

I grew up outside the church.

I've spent significant time surrounded by the faiths of others.... And I found God in each s d every single one. Which is why I never "chose" a religion (obv. That changed). Because wherever I was, he was at. Including not in houses of stone, etc. But staring out over vistas, in the eyes of strangers, in the split second of a car accident. In a warm room with a blazing fire while the sleet slammed down outside... And crouched under plastic trying to keep my fingers from being frostbit out in the durn storm. I found God in soaring cathedrals in Rome, and the rickety roadside shrine in Asia. In the voices raised in song in Jewish Temples. In the Buddhas' teachings. In the words of the Prophet. Dancing in Southern Baptist churches or taken neat the British way. I could (and occasionally do) list out dozens to hundreds of places (when Im feeling all warm & glowy... or near tears). But you get the point. HF was, quite simply, everywhere. All I had to do was listen.

Why on earth did I convert?

Because this is where I hear best.

Gloriously, giddily, resoundingly best.

I believe in an omnipotent & omniscient God.

As such, I can hardly believe that he wouldn't have the ability to speak differently, to each as they can hear him... As needed.

And that, once we die, and can hear even better (enter plan of salvation here ; )

3) Your brother?

One of my brothers has had fairly similar PR.

He's Calvinist.

He's one of the best people I know.

But I also know that the BoM would push him AWAY from HF.

Like rubbing a cat backwards.

So, score another one for the Spirit, for directing him to find the path to God that he can follow.

I don't worry a bit.

Once we die things will be sorted out.

And in the meantime... I revel in this life, and all the marvelous people in it... And in such a wise Father as to bring his children to him, as best THEY are able.

<grin> I rather like (most) other people's differing views.

As it shows their own heartfelt effort to be closer to God, and to do his Will, and to be the best people they are able.

In differing views; I find far more similarity than difference.

I find my own faith strengthened, not challenged.

As I contemplate how utterly amazing HF truly is.

And I can only catch a glimpse of creation.

...Guide me to the straight path

The path upon whom your grace abounds

Not those upon whom anger falls

Nor those who are lost.

[LeKook]

I've had friends tell me the Book of Mormon is false because the "Spirit" told them so. My response is, which "Spirit" told you so, have you actually READ it? They always answer no. Kind of reveals which "spirit" is speaking to them, since the Book of Mormon actually speaks very well for itself. Did for me, and I'm as hard-headed as they get, though my intentions are good.

[prisonchaplain]

LeKook, I've come to a conclusion about the Moroni Prayer Challenge. It is really meant as a confirmation tool. If someone has never read the BoM, and is convinced that it stands in opposition to their faith, then they will either feel nothing, or feel a confirmation about their preconceived opposition. If they, like me, tried to read it with openness, yet with reservations (I already feel confirmation about my faith--which is not LDS), then the deafening numbness I felt was a confirmation of my current state. And then, if I have begun to read the BoM with eagerness, and a desire to enter into this new faith--this restoration of true Christianity--then I'm likely to receive a confirmation of that direction.

All that said, I've become convinced that the Moroni Challenge is primarily geared towards those who want to believe the BoM is true. Skeptics, antagonists, or the mildly curious will not like receive confirmation, because there is not even the faith of a mustard seed to build on.

[FarmerMom]

LeKook, I've come to a conclusion about the Moroni Prayer Challenge. It is really meant as a confirmation tool. If someone has never read the BoM, and is convinced that it stands in opposition to their faith, then they will either feel nothing, or feel a confirmation about their preconceived opposition. If they, like me, tried to read it with openness, yet with reservations (I already feel confirmation about my faith--which is not LDS), then the deafening numbness I felt was a confirmation of my current state. And then, if I have begun to read the BoM with eagerness, and a desire to enter into this new faith--this restoration of true Christianity--then I'm likely to receive a confirmation of that direction.

All that said, I've become convinced that the Moroni Challenge is primarily geared towards those who want to believe the BoM is true. Skeptics, antagonists, or the mildly curious will not like receive confirmation, because there is not even the faith of a mustard seed to build on.

Funny you say this. When I first prayed I told God that I wanted the BOM to be true, but despite that, I needed to know the truth-esp. of where Heavenly Father wanted me to be. I didn't get a whole lot-curiously absent. So about a week went by, I cancelled the next meeting with the Missionaries and I sat down ready to put all the materials they brought us, away- and without really thinking, opened the BOM and it hit me-I felt something so wonderful-it's that feeling I have searched for throughout so many religious avenues. It found me and I knew at that moment that it was all true. It hit me broadside and I NEVER expected such an obvious, profound feeling. Ever. But it was great.

So on the one hand, yes, what you say happened to me-then later it hit me unexpectedly and clear out of the blue. I don't doubt that if someone is hardened to it (not saying you are) they won't receive any warm fuzzy feeling, but I figure they won't receive any warm fuzzies from any denomination they are ambivalent or negative towards.

[mnn727]

I personally believe God knows how far we will go with Him and does not lead people further than they are able to go.

There are many good people in other Churches following God and having spiritual experiences that are just not willing or able to commit to the Covenants we do. That doesn't mean God does love them and give them spiritual experiences.

[Traveler]

One of the great lessons of mortality is given by Jesus when he said to "knock, seek and ask". As obvious as this may seem one will not discover anything they are not looking for. Isaiah talks about line upon line and precept upon precept. This is because often we do not know what to look for. Until we understand certain principles we cannot find or understand anything that is built upon or reliant upon that principle.

There is no doubt that there is none so blind as he who will not see. For sure we will never discover that which we will not accept. This is so often seen in discussions even on this forum. That is that there is a preconception and regardless of any argument we will not step outside our comfort zone to explorer new possibilities.

In religious circles the uncertainty and fear that must accompany an actual step outside of our comfort zone is deemed a spiritual warning from G-d that we are headed in a wrong direction. Therefore it is almost necessary that our comfort zone be set upside down and in shambles before we will honestly consider other possibilities. Many and perhaps most cannot be set on a course of truth in religion until certain false principles are so disrupted and damaging that they cannot survive with principles they have come to love more than truth.

Throughout the history of man - it has always been more of a challenge to serve the True and Living G-d than it has to become attached to some variation of a false g-d. Indeed, even for those with experience and knowledge of G-d, such as Aaron, would from time to time find themselves in conditions more compatible with worshiping a "golden calf" than remaining on the stright and difficult path perscribed by the True G-d.

Often on this forum I have attempted to shake someone out of their current course of thinking in hope that they may seek a new thought of truth. For example, just the simple excess of sugar treats during the holidays - the mere suggestion that something without sugar be considered so infuriated many posters that I was openly accused of being motivated by hate. This despite the fact that sugar excess is not just a problem in our society but a major health risk - perhaps even the greatest health risk. The point is that we all have a taste for something sweet over something healthy and if eating physically healthy treats is so upsetting --- how much more are things spiritually healthy and G-d like - upsetting to those addicted to the equivalent of spiritual sugar.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

LeKook, I've come to a conclusion about the Moroni Prayer Challenge. It is really meant as a confirmation tool. If someone has never read the BoM, and is convinced that it stands in opposition to their faith, then they will either feel nothing, or feel a confirmation about their preconceived opposition. If they, like me, tried to read it with openness, yet with reservations (I already feel confirmation about my faith--which is not LDS), then the deafening numbness I felt was a confirmation of my current state. And then, if I have begun to read the BoM with eagerness, and a desire to enter into this new faith--this restoration of true Christianity--then I'm likely to receive a confirmation of that direction.

All that said, I've become convinced that the Moroni Challenge is primarily geared towards those who want to believe the BoM is true. Skeptics, antagonists, or the mildly curious will not like receive confirmation, because there is not even the faith of a mustard seed to build on.

I have a different view = the challenge by Moroni is 100% consistent with every other prophet of G-d and even G-d himself. It is a filter to separate the sheep from the goats. Those that will follow from those that will not. And like the parable of the seed - upon some ground the seed will not grow and produce fruit likewise some will not seek - like the rich young man that asked the L-rd what he lacked - but was so invested in what he wanted he really was not interested in what G-d wanted - almost, but not quite.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

And that seems to be my only out, aside from doubting myself, is that it isn't his time, or it simply isn't the spirit. It's so much easier to doubt myself, as I fully have an out for the central pillar of my testimony...

Kind of in a parallel vein with the whole "timing" thing--it's rare, but I think there are isolated cases where someone can do more good outside of the LDS Church than they can do from within it.

[Traveler]

Kind of in a parallel vein with the whole "timing" thing--it's rare, but I think there are isolated cases where someone can do more good outside of the LDS Church than they can do from within it.

Hmmmmmm - I cannot think of a single example if scriptures or in my own life where the straight and narrow path (keeping the commandments) is not the best of all possible paths. If there really was not a restoration in preparation of the 2nd coming - then you may have a point. But if there was a restoration - there is only one possibility to prepare.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I have a different view = the challenge by Moroni is 100% consistent with every other prophet of G-d and even G-d himself. It is a filter to separate the sheep from the goats. Those that will follow from those that will not. And like the parable of the seed - upon some ground the seed will not grow and produce fruit likewise some will not seek - like the rich young man that asked the L-rd what he lacked - but was so invested in what he wanted he really was not interested in what G-d wanted - almost, but not quite.

The Traveler

Your thoughts cause me to wonder about another group of people. They are similar to me, but on the other side of the fence. There are those LDS, especially amongst those born under the covenant, who have never had a "dynamic" spiritual confirmation that the BoM is true. They believe it is, find great satisfaction in the Church and in their faith community--but when they sought, they received the faintest hint of that burning in the bossom. I suppose most figure that Joseph Smith and the church are true, and that perhaps their faint revelatory experience is a sign that Heavenly Father finds them mature enough to forgo the more dynamic revelation.

Of course, a few are so disheartened they may experience a crisis of faith. So, I agree that motives matter, and that God reads our hearts, and knows how far we will walk with him, and how quickly.

[Just_A_Guy]

Hmmmmmm - I cannot think of a single example if scriptures or in my own life where the straight and narrow path (keeping the commandments) is not the best of all possible paths. If there really was not a restoration in preparation of the 2nd coming - then you may have a point. But if there was a restoration - there is only one possibility to prepare.

The Traveler

Perhaps. But could--say--Thomas Kane have advanced the interests of the Church so effectively, if Washington bureaucrats had been able to write him off as just another of those troublesome Mormons?

[Guest]

Hmmmmmm - I cannot think of a single example if scriptures or in my own life where the straight and narrow path (keeping the commandments) is not the best of all possible paths. If there really was not a restoration in preparation of the 2nd coming - then you may have a point. But if there was a restoration - there is only one possibility to prepare.

The Traveler

A lot of us - and my family is a perfect example of this - are following the best path. But they are in the Catholic Church while doing so keeping the commandments they made as Catholics. Nobody can convince me that they are not following the promptings of the Holy Spirit as it applies to their lives. I've been a Catholic most of my life and I can assure you, the same Holy Spirit I followed as a Catholic is the same Holy Spirit I follow now.

My father enriched many many many lives in his Catholic devotion. Although I am sure he would have been able to do so as an LDS, that was not the path he was given. He became aware of the Book of Mormon only in the last 10 years of his life - he did not have the time it takes for him to be able to study it and find a testimony of its truth when for 60 years of his life he had many many many spiritual experiences as a Catholic. The last 10 years of his life was better served enriching many more lives instead of struggling to conform to new covenants and being in conflict with my mother.

Jesus is the Christ. It does not make it false just because a Catholic taught it to you.