If everything happens for a reason

[Tamrajh]

If everything happens for a reason, what is the reason for suicide?

If God knows what we're going to do before we do it, does He know we're going to commit suicide?

If He knows we are, why doesn't He do something to intercede such as having just the right person call us or say just the right thing?

If He knows we are going to give up, why expect us to keep going?

No, I'm not suicidal but I think about it a lot and I've always looked at things as having a purpose. The reason I didn't have a job was because we had to learn to live on one income so when I got sick (which I am) we would be accustomed to it. Things like that. But then I started wondering today about suicide and what its purpose might be.

I hope I don't upset anyone or cause any emotional stress, I'm just wondering what other people think.

BTW, for those of you over 45, do you know what the theme song to Mash is? Look it up. It has words. Words that may surprise you.

[Vort]

Everything happens for a reason in the sense that everything has a cause. Everything does NOT happen for a reason in the sense that God approves everything for his own purposes.

Contrary to the M*A*S*H theme song, I do not believe that suicide is painless, either for the post-mortal suicidee or for his/her survivors. I think there is horrific damage done in suicide.

Hope all is well with you, Tamrajh. Haven't seen you around in a long time.

[Jamie123]

If God knows what we're going to do before we do it...

I don't know that God does know what we are going to do before we do it. If he did, then he would be incapable of surprise. Imagine what parenthood would be like if we knew exactly what our children were going to do, and what their future lives would be like. Like most things in life, the joy of parenthood is linked to its unpredictability. Imagine the pride (good pride) of seeing your son/daughter win a scholarship to Oxford (or Harvard if you happen to live in the US) if you had previously despaired of getting them to pay attention in school. If God is our father, and that premise is correct, then his must be a very different (and quite inferior) form of parenthood from our own.

[Bini]

Suicide is close to home for me and my husband. His friend, here in Salt Lake, shot himself at his home while on the phone with his wife (who he was separated with). The whole thing was horrific. He left behind not only her but two very young children. My husband continues to mourn his death and will talk about him sometimes as if he were still around. Earlier in the year my uncle tried to commit suicide and that was heart breaking too. Fortunately, his time was not up and he's getting much needed counselling now.

Since I'm in no position to judge one way or the other, I'll just agree with Vort, suicide has an aftermath that leaves families and friends broken. I know that our Lord is merciful and he has a plan even for those that have chosen to take their own life.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes suicide happens because of mental illness. Often it is sin. It most certainly involves our free will (agency). I'm not so sure I'd say God intends for anyone to commit suicide. On the other hand, his will and way is not hindered by our sinful deeds, nor by the residue of sin in the world (again, mental illness be one outcome of the Fall).

It's hard not to sound overly clinical or theological when discussing suicide. Many of us have had people close to us who have commited this act. Ultimately, when I made my inquiry of the Lord as to how a particular one's soul would be, after having taken his life, the answer I got from the Father was, "Trust me."

I do.

[Irishcolleen]

I like Vort's explanation. Several years ago we had a close friend kill himself. It was devastating- still is. He had so much emotional pain but it still wasn't right. Every time I see his kids struggle or have a big accomplishment I think he should have been there. My husband still has his cell phone number in his phone. I know he will have to answer to the Lord on why he threw part of his life away.

However, God is amazing. He can give beauty for ashes (Isa 61:3). This the first time many of the teens (his daughter was in jr. high) had serious crisis of faith. They processed it and became stronger in faith and less shallow- made faith their own not just what their parents believed. The man's wife became bolder, she had been way too timid. She needed to become bolder as she has three kids to raise alone. As a church, we learned to be more open with each other emotionally.

We would so much like to have our friend with us today. We know we will be with him someday. But, we are grateful for the gifts God gave even in this horrible event.

[Traveler]

If everything happens for a reason, what is the reason for suicide?

If God knows what we're going to do before we do it, does He know we're going to commit suicide?

If He knows we are, why doesn't He do something to intercede such as having just the right person call us or say just the right thing?

If He knows we are going to give up, why expect us to keep going?

No, I'm not suicidal but I think about it a lot and I've always looked at things as having a purpose. The reason I didn't have a job was because we had to learn to live on one income so when I got sick (which I am) we would be accustomed to it. Things like that. But then I started wondering today about suicide and what its purpose might be.

I hope I don't upset anyone or cause any emotional stress, I'm just wondering what other people think.

BTW, for those of you over 45, do you know what the theme song to Mash is? Look it up. It has words. Words that may surprise you.

What happens after we die is a matter of faith and speculation. It seems logical to me that in suicide the person has faith in the speculation that death will be an improvement for them. As I have contemplated choice I have decided that choice without knowledge is in every way not an actual choice but a guess. I have concluded that in order that choice and agency be a principle that the agency and choice was made in some sense before we were born.

Thus I speculate that our lives here are in essence playing out a previously determined course that we laid out with and in the presents of our Father in Heaven. We can speak of probabilities but most believers in G-d believe that G-d knew preciously the choices we will make in this life. It seems logical to me that if G-d knew our choices; that we would also know in order that we could make an informed choice (not a guess) and exercise actual agency - which could explain how Satan was able to enlist followers.

In any case we see only through the perspective of this life having forgotten all that preceded. I believe that our life (program) experience is perfectly designed to our progression to become G-ds. That the purpose in suicide or what ever other choices we are faced with in this life that we perfect and improve ourselves (through repentance). Like the Star Trek Kobayashi Maru test - we are pushed to the breaking point in this life and all eventually suffer death (the wage of sin) regardless of our best efforts. So we know and understand the good (atonement of G-d) and evil (death) and when the day come that we stand before G-d we may clearly communicate to him and ourselves our eternal choice - if it be Celestial or something else - which is the end and purpose of all things we experience in this life.

The Traveler

[Leah]

Do you believe we have free agency? If we have that, then doesn't it apply to ALL of our actions? If it doesn't apply to all of our actions, then is it really agency?

Even if God "sent" someone to say just the right thing at the right time, we still have the agency to respond to that however we please.

I personally believe that people who commit suicide are in such deep emotional pain that they do not fully understand what they are doing. My personal belief is that Heavenly Father's reaction would be one of compassion, not anger or punishment.

[Traveler]

Do you believe we have free agency? If we have that, then doesn't it apply to ALL of our actions? If it doesn't apply to all of our actions, then is it really agency?

Even if God "sent" someone to say just the right thing at the right time, we still have the agency to respond to that however we please.

I personally believe that people who commit suicide are in such deep emotional pain that they do not fully understand what they are doing. My personal belief is that Heavenly Father's reaction would be one of compassion, not anger or punishment.

How can we say that someone that does not understand what they are doing is in any way expressing agency?

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

My life has been touched by suicide on numerous occasions.

I believe there is a line, which we can cross or be pushed past against our will. On one side of the line, we have agency and are responsible for our actions. On the other side of the line, we do not have agency and are not responsible for our actions.

Consider mentally ill people who literally are forced into actions and thoughts and patterns they have no control over. Their bodies are doing things, and their brains are directing their bodies to do the things, but they can't really chose to do anything else. No choice = no accountability = no agency.

Now, consequences come no matter what side of the line we're on. It doesn't matter whether the life is taken on purpose, or because there was no choice, the life was still taken.

The cusp of my opinion, is that we mere humans lack the tools to judge righteous judgement in these matters. We literally aren't able to discern the heart of someone who commits suicide. Did they intentionally sin and will go to hell? Dunno. Were they pushed past the line to a place where they had no choice and could only react? Dunno - but it's a possibility. And that possibility is comforting, because God only holds you accountable when you have a choice. No choice = no accountability = no agency.

So, you leave the judgement to God on the matter, and hope for the best.

[Quin]

I firmly believe, that while everything happens for a reason... That doesn't always mean it's a good reason, or that I'd agree with it.

As far as God interceding?

Why doesn't God intercede in genocide?

Or plague?

Or childhood leukemia?

If people fighting for their lives cannot count on God interceding, I can't really complain when he lets me do exactly as I choose to do, now can I?

I realize this might sound flippant... But I've been suicidal twice. Once in physical pain (death would have been a blessing, Im still not sure I've got all my marbles -much less nerve endings!-after that series of unfortunate events), and once from emotional pain.

FOR ME... That's what suicide is.

A miscommunication.

Really, all I want is the pain to stop.

But, instead, I tell myself that I want to die.

Nope.

I want the pain to stop.

There are ways to do that, looooooooong before death "should" make it to the table.

But when one is in pain, one isn't thinking clearly.

The (alarmingly complex) brain is a fairly simple creature.

Pain = Bad = Stop. Now. How? Voila.

The not thinking clearly also means, that even if God sent a chorus of dancing bears carrying morphine, antidepressants, dead children brought back to life, a million dollars, and he only funny knock knock joke in existence... We'd probably see them as a sign to go jump in the bear pit at the zoo. If we saw them at all.

Q

[Dravin]

If everything happens for a reason, what is the reason for suicide?

I disagree with your premise (more on that later in my post), at least in the sense I think you mean it. As stated by Vort, things have causes. The reason suicide happens is agency, the same reason a great many things such as rape, murder, and theft happen. Indeed the questions you ask can be extended to things such as rape, murder, and theft.

If God knows what we're going to do before we do it, does He know we're going to commit suicide?

Given the premise as stated it would be the case, and would be the case for other things generally considered bad.

If He knows we are, why doesn't He do something to intercede such as having just the right person call us or say just the right thing?

Also applicable to other things generally considered bad. Agency is at play, both the agency of the person you'd want to do the interceding and the agency of the person who would be interceded.

If He knows we are going to give up, why expect us to keep going?

Because life is a trial, a laboratory to develop godlike characteristics and attributes, in some way how we handle our failures and downs are just as important as how we handle our success and ups. Also this question seems to be tinged with some sort of idea that it's all predestined that Timothy will commit suicide December 28th at 12:22 AM, so why would he expect him to fight this destiny? I don't agree that such is the case. People aren't predestined to commit suicide just as Laman and Lemuel weren't predestined to murmur with no agency in the matter.

If you realize these questions are applicable to other things generally considered bad you either reach some weird conclusions or shift your thinking. Because I doubt most LDS would find the idea, "God knows the rapist is going to rape, why would he expect him to not rape?" to be a bit of a fuse blower. Now my point in bringing things up like murder, rape, and theft is not to say, "People who commit suicide are just like rapists, murderers, and thieves." I bring them up because they are:

1) Actions taken by people.

2) Generally regarded as not being good.

Note: While the motivations for these things are different on the human level, I feel the question being asked is, "What is the reason for bad things happening, and why should we resist doing them?" within a doctrinal context. My analogizing is within that context.

No, I'm not suicidal but I think about it a lot and I've always looked at things as having a purpose. The reason I didn't have a job was because we had to learn to live on one income so when I got sick (which I am) we would be accustomed to it. Things like that. But then I started wondering today about suicide and what its purpose might be.

While I do believe a great many things in this world do happen for a purpose I do not agree that all things happen in line with some sort of divine road map. I got lost getting home through downtown Indianapolis when the interstate was shut down, I'm disinclined to think God caused an accident that shut down my freeway route to get home so that I would get lost for some purpose.

Now could I have used the experience to develop Christlike attributes? Most certainly, and I think as Latter-day Saints we need to turn all of life's events whether they happen as a result of God's nudging or simply from the results of other's agency and living in a fallen world into an opportunity to become more Christlike. I think though that some things simply happen as a result of cause and effect and not because God planned out that someone would leave a nail on the road that I would run over and would leave me flat so I'd be 15 minutes late to a date.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Dravin

[Leah]

How can we say that someone that does not understand what they are doing is in any way expressing agency?

The Traveler

Oh, please.

[Traveler]

Oh, please.

Exactly

For example: There are 5 doors in front of you and you have no idea what is behind them except one and only leads to eternal salvation the rest will result in eternal damnation. You get to choose according to your agency? Good luck with that!

The Traveler

[Leah]

Exactly

For example: There are 5 doors in front of you and you have no idea what is behind them except one and only leads to eternal salvation the rest will result in eternal damnation. You get to choose according to your agency? Good luck with that!

The Traveler

How about posting something to help the OP instead of useless nonsense?

[classylady]

I'm going to throw this out there. I'm not so sure everything happens for a reason. I believe tragic things happen in people's lives, and God allows it to happen. It doesn't necessarily mean there is a specific reason why a tragic event happens to a specific person. We have imperfect bodies. Illness, disease, accidents, etc. happen. I believe God does not always step in to prevent things from happening unless it would truly go against what an individual needs to do in order to accomplish what was foreordained for this life. He's going to allow the laws of nature to occur. There's a lot of examples I can think of. One would be a car accident. An accident occurs, and you would only be saved if you are wearing a seat belt. For some reason you forget to put your seat belt on. My belief is that God is not going to intervene, unless there is some divine reason to do so. God will allow you to die. And, if you happened to remember to put your seat belt on, you would live through this.

[Tamrajh]

Note. I am not only bipolar but I also have something else going on that we haven't figured out yet so please forgive me if my answers are all over the place.

First, let me thank you all for not assuming I'm out of control and need whatever to help me not make that decision. I appreciate that you respected my clarifications in my initial post. :)

Second, thank you for all being so serious and intent with your answers. You obviously took this seriously and spent time contemplating how to reply.

Third, after I completed the post I remembered free agency - the thing that makes it so even if God does know that we have the propensity to take an action, it is still up to us whether we do it or not. It is also up to everyone else to determine if they are going to rape, steal, destroy, graduate, etc. And all of those things have consequences (remember, not all consequences are bad).

Fourth, the reason I think things happen for a reason, and perhaps I should have clarified that I meant big decisions or actions, is because as I look back on events that have occurred in my life, I can see how they led me down a path or gave me experience, to deal with an upcoming event.

And finally, for those of us who are mentally ill, are we held to a different standard? Back to one part of my initial question, since he knows we are mentally ill and may possibly harm someone or ourselves, is it more permissible than if someone "normal" (yes I know there is not a normal) were to make a detrimental act? Are we held to a different standard?

I've always heard that the people who were born with a mental or physical disability are protected in some way. They are the precious souls that He needed to keep safe for a reason unknown to us. I know we'll never know in this lifetime if this is true but I wondered what other people thought/felt about this.

One more thing. Thank you, Vort, for remembering me and stating such. Being remembered is a great compliment and I appreciate it. I haven't been on here for 4-5 years and you still remembered me. You're awesome. :)

[Blackmarch]

If everything happens for a reason, what is the reason for suicide?

If God knows what we're going to do before we do it, does He know we're going to commit suicide?

If He knows we are, why doesn't He do something to intercede such as having just the right person call us or say just the right thing?

If He knows we are going to give up, why expect us to keep going?

No, I'm not suicidal but I think about it a lot and I've always looked at things as having a purpose. The reason I didn't have a job was because we had to learn to live on one income so when I got sick (which I am) we would be accustomed to it. Things like that. But then I started wondering today about suicide and what its purpose might be.

I hope I don't upset anyone or cause any emotional stress, I'm just wondering what other people think.

BTW, for those of you over 45, do you know what the theme song to Mash is? Look it up. It has words. Words that may surprise you.

well yes there's a reason to everything.... it may just not be what a person thinks. as for suicide's purposes I suppose theres the individual who committed it- that they want out of this world for some reason or another, which suicide does accomplish. does it serve any purpose beyond that other than screwing people over? I don't know, can't think of much, save maybe making the devil more happy.

[Traveler]

How about posting something to help the OP instead of useless nonsense?

The problem is that any attempt to determine what is a good reason or even agency based on the standard of this life alone (excluding a pre-existance and an after life) is a much better demonstration of useless nonsense.

As Paul said:

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

We can have hope in Christ beyond trying account for useless nonsense when actions that bring about pain are made in some kind of ignorance (not actual agency) - outside of any hope in Christ (which would then be an act of agency).

The Traveler

[Backroads]

I personally don't believe everything happens for a reason. It's an imperfect world with lots of free agency and I firmly believe that many things just happen because they happen.

Whether we can learn and grow from them is another question entirely.