New Hope or New Crisis?

[Traveler]

Throughout the history of mankind there have been two great engines of human engineered disasters. In our modern times we often say the world has shrunk with our advanced communications and travel ease. Though human advances seem to have shrunk the world it has also made human engineered disasters more of a threat. All human engineered disasters come from two problems in human society – big powerful governments and big powerful businesses.

There is a popular notion that the two keep each other in check in a sort of balance of power struggle. Right now we are seeing a dramatic struggle unfolding. Governments – including the US government are taking giant Orwellian strides of technical oversights – in other words government spying on its own citizens and diminished privacy or as some would label the loss of freedom or changes in government search and seizer of private information. Just in the last year there has been an increase in government requests (search warrants) of 68% of American Citizens information on Google. In addition Judges are making efforts of have information critical of them removed from Google and police departments taking legal efforts to take down videos and blogs that shine a light on their procedures and conduct.

So the new hope against Big Government becoming Big Brother is the rising influence of Google, Verizon and other tech companies that are calling into question government attempts to spy on their so called citizen masters. But these are Big Business and if we are not careful just another head of a two headed dragon. Though we may cheer (and I do) such companies taking government to task – I believe there is still danger. But there is one small person that has taken on tech intrusions that has upset Big Government, Big Business and just about everybody else involved in concentrating power with technology. I am talking about whistle blower, tech terrorists, trader or whatever you want to call Edward Snowden.

Some think that secrets are essential to run governments and businesses. But when does a secret become a threat? Where is the line between protecting and enslaving?

The Traveler

[talisyn]

I thought this would be a discussion about 'old' Star Wars vs. 'new' Star Wars

Ultimately, the power to stop this march towards a free-market USSR lies with the voting citizens.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Google had the "Don't be evil." code of ethics, but just like the NSA, they monitor everything, have their fingers in a million secret pies and have questionable oversight. I don't believe business is going to hold government in check as most cases, those businesses contributed to the campaign, lobby groups and those same officials get a job after they are done in government.

Snowden only confirmed what most of the World suspected and burst a few domestic bubbles. I would honestly be more concerned with drone strikes on Americans by Americans without any legal process and performed by some low level lackey.

The solution is a higher voter turnout, more active voters and a government who needs to answer to its citizens. Canada is not much different in the falling voting turnout and the questionable government practices, so I am not preaching or anything.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Knowledge is power. I am very concerned with how much power the National Security Agency has. It is not right to gather millions of phone calls and e-mails "just in case you need it."

This is power that no one can be trusted with. And I especially do not trust Congress, the Supreme Court or our President with this much authority.

Our Congress cannot even balance a budget let alone be trusted to not use peoples' private communications against them. You think you are not breaking any laws in the United States?

Watch this:

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[Quin]

Hmmmm.... Terretorial/Geographic States v Multinationals/Corporate States.

Reminds me of a Heinlein passage:

From Friday, by Robert A Heinlein.

" About then the loudspeaker that mumbles the arrivals and departures interrupted itself with: "It is with deep sorrow that we pause to announce the total destruction of Acapulco. This flash comes to you courtesy of Interworld Transport, Proprietary, the Triple-S Lines: Speed-Safety-Service."

I gasped. Captain Ian said, "Oh, those idiots!"

"Which idiots?"

"The whole Mexican Revolutionary Kingdom. When are the territorial states going to learn that they cannot possibly win against corporate states? That's why I said they were idiots. And they are!"

"Why do you say that, Captain?-Ian?"

"Obvious. Any territorial state, even if it's Ell-Four or an asteroid, is a sitting duck. But fighting a multinational is like trying to slice a fog. Where's your target? You want to fight IBM? Where is IBM? Its registered home office is a P.O. box number in Delaware Free State. That's no target. IBM's offices and people and plants are scattered through four hundred-odd territorial states groundside and more in space; you can't hit any part of IBM without hurting somebody else as much or more. But can IBM defeat, say, Great Russia?"

"I don't know," I admitted. "The Prussians weren't able to."

"It would just depend on whether or not IBM could see a profit in

it. So far as I know, IBM doesn't own any guerrillas; she may not even have agents saboteurs. She might have to buy the bombs and missiles. But she could shop around and take her own sweet time getting set because Russia isn't going anywhere. It will still be there, a big fat target, a week from now or a year. But Interworld Transport just showed what the outcome would be. This war is all over. Mexico bet that Interworld wouldn't risk public condemnation by destroying a Mexican city. But those old-style politicians forgot that corporate nations aren't nearly as interested in public opinion as territorial nations have to be. The war's over."

"Yes, and it would still be a beautiful place if the Montezuma's Revolutionary Council wasn't rooted somewhere back in the twentieth century. But now there will be face-saving. Interworld will apologize and pay an indemnity, then, with no fanfare, the Montezuma will cede the land and the extraterritoriality for the new spaceport to a new corporation with a Mexicano name and a DF home office... and the public won't be told that the new corporation is owned sixty percent by Interworld and forty percent by the very politicians who stalled just a little too long and let Acapulco be destroyed."

Q

[marshac]

A family member of mine works for RSA and is a very public figure in the security industry...

We touched base over Christmas and I asked him how things were going- basically everyone in the tech industry is freaking out and companies overseas are shunning ALL hardware from ANY US based company.... think Cisco routers, Dell servers. etc. With such a huge industry now facing international blowback as a direct result of US government actions, you can be sure the lobbyists representing these firms are going into high gear on the Hill- for us citizens our interests are in rare alignment with big business- to stop the rampant espionage.

[Traveler]

A family member of mine works for RSA and is a very public figure in the security industry...

We touched base over Christmas and I asked him how things were going- basically everyone in the tech industry is freaking out and companies overseas are shunning ALL hardware from ANY US based company.... think Cisco routers, Dell servers. etc. With such a huge industry now facing international blowback as a direct result of US government actions, you can be sure the lobbyists representing these firms are going into high gear on the Hill- for us citizens our interests are in rare alignment with big business- to stop the rampant espionage.

The problem is that everyone still wants the information to be out there and available to them but not to others - including the governemnt. Google still want to use your personal data for their propfit and to keep everyone else they can from as much access as they can - so that they can benefit in ways that no one else can.

The Traveler

[yjacket]

Knowledge is power. I am very concerned with how much power the National Security Agency has.

Just think of everything that hasn't been reported.

You can't handle the TRUTH!!!

I do find it interesting in a cognitive dissonance way at how people can be so upset at the NSA but yet still believe that government is the answer to all our problems . . . health care, education, economy, etc. or that they believe that changing Presidents will do much good or that there is a huge difference between the teams. It is the system; an extremely bureaucratic, bloated, massive organization where individuals are not rewarded for performance but rewarded for growing their pie (i.e. making their office budgets bigger). No one person can manage all of it, it is the Leviathon.

Edited January 5, 2014 by yjacket

[yjacket]

I am much more afraid of Big Government than Big Business. The collusion between the two is frightening, but Big Businesses by themselves never murdered millions and millions.

And frankly put, without Big Government many big businesses would die due to competition. Monopolies are extremely difficult to maintain without government support.

When/where does it stop? Governments are a reflection of the people, even dictators must have the support (even if it is soft support) of the people.

I disagree with the notion of a higher voter turnout; what is needed is educated voters. Very few people who actually vote take the time to research, study the issues and make an educated decision; most go on voting for who they think will win (b/c psychologically we want to vote for the winner), on who looks the best, who talks the best, who has the best 15-30 sec soundbite, etc. or on whether it's R or D. People like the cotton-candy stuff, the stuff that makes them feel good.

And then a significant segment of voters like things the way they are b/c they benefit from it; they either get government subsidies, have contracts with the government, work for the government, etc. They want the government cheese to continue, so they vote for whoever promises them the most.

There is also a lack of truly understanding what freedom and liberty means.

In the end, everything boils down to economics, as long as people feel like they are doing okay economically nothing changes, when the crap hits the fan then it gets interesting.

I actually don't hold out too much hope in the short-term to intermediate future. I think it's got a long ways to go before people truly revolt against the system. If succession was an option (it has been done successfully in Europe-(the CzechRepublic anyone), then I would say there would be a chance. Having the threat of succession can be a wonderful balancing force. But it's not so who knows.

When the economy truly blows up things will get interesting . . . for me I actually hope the Savior comes to rescue from what could happen.

[marshac]

The problem is that everyone still wants the information to be out there and available to them but not to others - including the governemnt. Google still want to use your personal data for their propfit and to keep everyone else they can from as much access as they can - so that they can benefit in ways that no one else can.

The Traveler

I think the difference is that in the case of Google, I made the choice to provide them with my name as well as made the choice to allow them to host (and harvest) my email- in return for helping them refine their marketing profile of me I gain access to their services which I deem as valuable. This willing exchange of information for service is different than intercepting Amazon orders and installing backdoors, or hacking into private networks for the sole purpose of collecting data unbeknownst to anyone else (including the rightful "owners" of the data).

[Traveler]

I think the difference is that in the case of Google, I made the choice to provide them with my name as well as made the choice to allow them to host (and harvest) my email- in return for helping them refine their marketing profile of me I gain access to their services which I deem as valuable. This willing exchange of information for service is different than intercepting Amazon orders and installing backdoors, or hacking into private networks for the sole purpose of collecting data unbeknownst to anyone else (including the rightful "owners" of the data).

I agree that it is all a question of what is done with accumulated information. The problem is, as I see it, if there is no insight into how the information is used - what is the difference if it is a very big multinational gadianton style corporation or a regional gadianton style government?

For purposes here - I define gadianton style as secretive.

The Traveler