Church Instructs Leaders on Same-Sex Marriage

[Vort]

On a serious note, Elder Jensen said once in Conference that he heard one of the Seventies say about humility that "if you think you have it, you don’t." and suggested we should try to develop humility and be sure we didn’t know when we got it, and then we would have it. But if we ever thought we had it, we wouldn’t. I thought it was a pretty awesome way to describe it.

No offense to you, Suzie. If something makes sense to you and is meaningful, that's great.

But my response to the Seventy (if the situation were appropriate -- I would not publicly call out a General Authority) would be to ask the same questions as before. I have never heard of any other true virtue that depends on our ignorance of having acquired it as a sign we have it, and a belief that we have it as a sure sign we don't. I bet Jesus considers himself humble.

[apexviper]

Some questions that come to mind: What about those members who either support gay civil marriage or those who are not for or against and they don't feel the need to fight against it? Do they also have the right to express their views on the matter free from retaliation?

I'll address the 1st part of your question. These are good questions no doubt. To best understand issues like this I feel it necessary to refer to Handbook 2. It contains the policies of the church including on this issue. Because it is from the Brethren and was formed through revelation directly from the Lord it's wording would be the best to use.

Handbook 2 21.4.6

Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction

Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance.

Heavenly Father expects us to love everyone because we are all His children. He does not, however, expect us to love or even respect every action man makes. Elder Oaks talked about this also. If you notice in the handbook given by the Brethren it also states those who influence others to participate in homosexual behavior are subject to church discipline. This means any member of the church, gay or straight, who influences such behavior. The church defines this as anything beyond homosexual feelings. Feelings are fine, those aren't sins. Going into a homosexual relationship is taking it pass feeling and is considered breaking the law of Chastity whether the couple is having sexual relations or not.

Here's another way that might make it easier: God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Our purpose on earth is to become like God. Part of this process is for us to also get to the point where we cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. We need to love the sinner without supporting the sin and without telling others it's ok to do. When we choose to support things that we know are not of God we take a step away from the Savior.

I also like to use the Temple interview questions. Number 7 is great to use specifically. It says the following: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"

You will see that it doesn't ask if we live in a way that isn't in harmony with the teachings of the church. The question asks if we support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary or oppose those accepted by the church.

Edited January 21, 2014 by apexviper

[michaelgbluth]

Before I die, the Church will accept active homosexuals and they will be married in the temple. If not, the Church will gradually lose credibility, influence and eventually, relevance.

[Suzie]

Before I die, the Church will accept active homosexuals and they will be married in the temple. If not, the Church will gradually lose credibility, influence and eventually, relevance.

Sorry, it is never going to happen and it's me telling you that, someone who doesn't believe we should stop gays from getting married but there is no way on earth that the LDS Church will allow gay couples to marry in the temple.

[estradling75]

Before I die, the Church will accept active homosexuals and they will be married in the temple. If not, the Church will gradually lose credibility, influence and eventually, relevance.

The world has always tried to make the things of God to have no credibility, influence and relevance. And it is success in an inversely related to the willingness of the Saints to follow God command verses following the worlds temptations

[michaelgbluth]

Sorry, it is never going to happen and it's me telling you that, someone who doesn't believe we should stop gays from getting married but there is no way on earth that the LDS Church will allow gay couples to marry in the temple.

Brigham and McConkie said they same thing about blacks and the priesthood.

Don't underestimate the power of societal pressure. Do you really think that as other churches begin to accommodate the LGBT community that the LDS Church will be the last one standing? Public opinion and political pressure changed the doctrine of polygamy and priesthood, it will change this one too. We just need to speak up when we have the opportunity and let time do its thing.

[skippy740]

Moses 1:39

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

The Church will continue to support laws and practices to support God's Plan of Salvation until God's work and glory changes to affect a different direction.

Mormon 9:9

9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[skippy740]

Brigham and McConkie said they same thing about blacks and the priesthood.

Don't underestimate the power of societal pressure. Do you really think that as other churches begin to accommodate the LGBT community that the LDS Church will be the last one standing? Public opinion and political pressure changed the doctrine of polygamy and priesthood, it will change this one too. We just need to speak up when we have the opportunity and let time do its thing.

They BELIEVED they had a scriptural precedent for withholding the priesthood. You should check out the updated footnotes in the 1981 edition (and further clarified in the 2013 edition) of the scriptures. You might learn something.

Societal pressure won't change God's Plan of Salvation.

[Suzie]

Brigham and McConkie said they same thing about blacks and the priesthood.

I don't think it is the same issue. Young and McConkie spoke with a very limited understanding but that's for another thread.

Unless the Church explicitly releases a statement saying the parts in the scriptures where God condemns homosexuality is a mistake of interpretation then how could they reconcile what they consider sinful behavior (homosexuality) with a temple marriage?

[LittleWyvern]

Don't underestimate the power of societal pressure.

I don't think anybody here is underestimating the power of societal pressure. In other words, I think the gist of what people are trying to explain to you is that the LDS Church cares little about following the societal "flavor of the week," so to speak. Not only is it a rapidly moving target (an opinion formulated to perfectly agree with society now would be obsolete within a month), it is arguably a target that isn't worth much effort hitting at the moment.

[michaelgbluth]

I don't think anybody here is underestimating the power of societal pressure. In other words, I think the gist of what people are trying to explain to you is that the LDS Church cares little about following the societal "flavor of the week," so to speak. Not only is it a rapidly moving target (an opinion formulated to perfectly agree with society now would be obsolete within a month), it is arguably a target that isn't worth much effort hitting at the moment.

Are you really saying that the societal flavor of the week is homosexuality? The LGBT movement is THE movement of my generation. There are multiple stories everyday dealing with homosexuality and as much as they want to ignore it, the Church is forced to talk about it all the time.

[skippy740]

Meeting the Challenges of Today - Neal A. Maxwell

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had "never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life" (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ.

We are now entering a period of incredible ironies. Let us cite but one of these ironies which is yet in its subtle stages: we shall see in our time a maximum if indirect effort made to establish irreligion as the state religion. It is actually a new form of paganism that uses the carefully preserved and cultivated freedoms of Western civilization to shrink freedom even as it rejects the value essence of our rich Judeo-Christian heritage.

[...]

Brothers and sisters, irreligion as the state religion would be the worst of all combinations. Its orthodoxy would be insistent and its inquisitors inevitable. Its paid ministry would be numerous beyond belief. Its Caesars would be insufferably condescending. Its majorities—when faced with clear alternatives—would make the Barabbas choice, as did a mob centuries ago when Pilate confronted them with the need to decide.

Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, "A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it" (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people's opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

[LittleWyvern]

Are you really saying that the societal flavor of the week is homosexuality? The LGBT movement is THE movement of my generation. There are multiple stories everyday dealing with homosexuality and as much as they want to ignore it, the Church is forced to talk about it all the time.

What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that the LGBT movement isn't just a fad. Sure, the timescale might be different (I used "flavor of the week" as a phrase, not a length of time), but societal fads, especially those associated with a certain generation, come and go. Understandably, to an organization that's been around much longer than you or I have been alive, these fads aren't something worth chasing.

Edited March 18, 2014 by LittleWyvern

[Just_A_Guy]

Before I die, the Church will accept active homosexuals and they will be married in the temple. If not, the Church will gradually lose credibility, influence and eventually, relevance.

The Church's raison d'etre is not to attain "credibility, influence . . . [or] relevance". It is to call the sinners to repentance and, if they will not repent, then to leave them without excuse at the time of the Second Coming and subsequent judgment.

The Church is not stocking up on all kinds of assets--and telling its members to do the same--because it expects the next few decades to be easy. It has been taking advantage of the recent years of plenty with the full expectation that those years are drawing to a close. Mormons who have been paying attention know that the next few decades will be very difficult indeed--made more so, by Satan's useful idiots who use issues like gay marriage to bring the hand of government down upon the Church and those who agree with it.

We face our coming loss of worldly privilege and the temporal hell you have in store for us with regret, but not with surprise. I think that on the whole you'll find the scope of our preparation and the depth of our attachment to our religion and our God both unexpected and maddening, before the end.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[NightSG]

Millionaire gay couple is suing to force a church to hold their wedding | The Libertarian Republic

This could have interesting implications for the Church, at least in the UK. Then again, these things have a way of spreading; if they succeed there, there will be others trying it in other countries.