"anti" Propoganda

[sixpacktr]

I just gotta say this. I had basically sworn off of TownHall in the last 2 months or so because of the blatant anti-Mormon spin that is being flung there by some of the writers and a lot of the posters, but I was there yesterday to see if anyone covered the visit of the Rev Al Sharpton to church headquarters. They made a big deal about it when the Rev Al said what he did about Mitt Romney, and I wondered if they'd cover the meetings afterwards btw him and Elder Ballard, Pres Oaks, etc. Of course, since there was no controversy there (the church leaders treated him very cordially, told him to forget about it, etc. No acrimony. No sound bites, nothing. I was once again impressed with our leader's typification (??) of forgiveness and chosing not to be offended).

Anyway, there was so much stuff in the poster's section about our cult-like activities that I have to address some of them:

1). There are no, and have never been any, blood oaths in the temple. This is a favorite ploy of the antis to immediately cast us in the worst possible light, a "Jim Jones" kind of cult. This has been twisted. I went thru the temple when those particular things were happening. The intention was that you would not reveal the sacred things taught to you EVEN IF you were tortured in a cruel manner because these were sacred. It was never, in any way, "if you tell, we'll do this to you!!"

2). We are all mind-numbed robots at the beck and call of Pres Hinckley, or our other local leaders, to do anything that they tell us to do. Most of the members I know are intelligent, independent people that choose to be OBEDIENT to what our leaders, who we believe are called of God, suggest (not command, not dictate, SUGGEST) we do. I personally have a problem with authority. I hate it when I am told what to do (including, of course, by SWMBO, but there are consequences if I fail to obey her!). But when one of my called leaders suggests a course of action for me, I want to obey that because I know that in the end I will be happier. There are times that I wonder why, there are times that I don't agree, but I still do.

3). That we aren't Christians. This one really irks me. The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. The Book of Mormon says, right on the cover: The BOM, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. We have art of the Savior in every meeting hall of the church, we talk of Christ, we preach of Christ, etc. Now, it is true that our doctrine is different than most Protestant and Orthodox doctrines regarding faith and works, premortal existence, work for the dead, our ability to progress thru the eternities, etc. But to say we don't believe in Christ is ludicrous. Once, while working in the deep South, I had a gentleman during a meeting tell me "well, your Jesus is different from my Jesus." And I agreed. The Jesus I believe in is far more merciful, and yet far more strict than the Jesus of the world. The Jesus I believe in expects us to overcome the world, and not give in to its temptations. The Jesus I believe in requires of me a living, vibrant faith, not a mere belief in him as my personal Savior. Well did James state: “the devils also believe, and tremble.” The Jesus I believe in stands with open arms, waiting for me each night to come to him in humility and beg forgiveness for falling short of his expectations of me. The Jesus I believe in is the head of this church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Those are just a couple of the things that are just so outlandish that I had to say something somewhere. I appreciate those that aren't members on this forum, like PC, Dr T., and those that were LDS, like Shanstress, that have basic disagreements with our doctrine, but they don't throw that other stuff at us. I am grateful for that, because while we believe that HF and Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph and that thru him the church was restored after the apostasy, I also respect their beliefs. I'm not here to call them names or think badly of them because they believe differently than I do. I respect them for doing the good they do. And I am always curious as to why people believe what they do, because if I get to know that person, I can't be mad at them, or think badly of them, because I know them. But for some reason there are those that feel that their entire mission in life is to "expose the fraud the Mormon Church is", and they can't rest until they do.

What a sad life that must be.

[JcDean78]

But for some reason there are those that feel that their entire mission in life is to "expose" the fraud the Mormon Church is, and they can't rest until they do.

What a sad life that must be.

And thus they will never rest, because the Church is true.

I am with you about townhall. It has been very frustrating to me. There are only a couple article writers there that are real jerks about it but then again there are a couple there who have writen wonderful articles about the Church and the general character and values of the members.

[StrawberryFields]

I have just chosen not to 'visit' certain threads.

Early on when I came to LDS Talk I was at a very vulrenqable place in my life (my mom had just passed away) and I had never been exposed to such hatred towards our faith. I must say that my testimony was temporally shaken. Now I just chose not to go there.

There are plenty of places on the internet where people can go and defend the LDS Church and that happens sometimes here as well. I have been here long enough I have seen some really good members defend our faith and I have to wonder how good it has been personally for them. Just recently I think it was TheProudDuck who came back to say 'Hello' and this

"I swore off "Internet Mormonism" a couple of years ago, near the time I started a new job. It was taking too much of my time, and too great a toll on my faith. For some people, I think, religion is one of those things like love or courage or patriotism that is most powerful when least talked about. There is something to be said for just living the basic principles of the Gospel."

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ic=8509&hl=

[Dr T]

:) Thank you Six.

[Blessed]

An excellent post, six-pack. I really liked your statement :

"well, your Jesus is different from my Jesus." And I agreed. The Jesus I believe in is far more merciful, and yet far more strict than the Jesus of the world. The Jesus I believe in expects us to overcome the world, and not give in to its temptations. The Jesus I believe in requires of me a living, vibrant faith, not a mere belief in him as my personal Savior. "

I have never known what to say when that was thrown in my face, but now I do. Thank you.

[Guest mamacat]

"The Jesus I believe in requires of me a living, vibrant faith, not a mere belief in him as my personal Savior."

yes that's it, absolutely.

[a-train]

MORMONS BEWARE:

There is an anti-mormon saying that Mormons believe in a different Jesus than the true Jesus. The war of semantics is Satan's game and he knows well the tendency in LDS to say: 'Your Jesus is different from my Jesus.' Those with less familiarity with us will take that as a confession that we reject the Jesus of the New Testament and have supposed some 'other' Jesus to be the Christ.

Let us not engage in such a confusing game of semantics that serves only to arouse suspicion and frustration. We declare boldly that there is but one and only one Jesus of Nazereth and that He is the 'God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible'. (Duet. 10:17)

Jesus is 'the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, [who came] down from heaven among the children of men, and [dwelt] in a tabernacle of clay, and [went] forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.'

And he cast out devils, or the evil spirits which [dwelt] in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he [suffered] temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great was his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he [is] called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother [is] called Mary.

And lo, he came unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they [considered] him a man, and [said] that he hath a devil, and [scourged] him, and [crucified] him.

And he [arose] the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.' (Mosiah 3:5-12)

'And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.' (Mosiah 3:17)

Let us suffice to rejoice in our brethren's belief in the same LORD Jesus Christ and be willing to quickly forgive any misconception we perceive in them. We too may learn many things about the Saviour that will seem surprising and new to us, and indeed I can say that I continue to have that experience. Let us rejoice in every level of faith and understanding of our LORD among men and build on that foundation as the LORD has commanded us.

-a-train

[shanstress70]

Yes, thanks Six! :)

[BenRaines]

"By their fruits ye shall know them." Bring forth good fruits and they have no foot to stand on.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

Jesus provides the only specific test of whether someone is a Christian or not.

He said that others will know if we are his disciples if we have love for one another.

The question is, are anti-mormons manifesting love or hate?

[Sugarbay]

Is it hate or ignorance (being a lack of information)? Religion is such a personal thing and when people are confronted with something that put Christ in a different light than they believe, they have a tendency to become zealous.

I would hope that we would not debate these things with non-members as contention is of the devil. They are still our brothers and sisters and we must remember that Father loves them as much as he does us and expects us to be Christlike in dealing with people who exhibit "hateful" tendencies. Sometimes it might be best to stay away from situations where one would be defensive about their beliefs but then, where does "Every member a missionary" come into play?

[Guest mamacat]

listening to our missionaries tell us about what it means to be LDS and follow in Christ's path, feeling the strength of the truth in this....this i knew was what is proper and true. that it doesn't just mean making a statement about him as a personal savior and leaving it that. that it is a 'living, vibrant' commitment to follow his teaching and his way. this i felt in my heart.....not witnessing this in what others considered 'christian'......this was one of the biggest indicators for me that LDS is totally real and sincere in following the path of Christ.

what Sixpacktr said in this respect echoes my strong feelings about about such things.

[prisonchaplain]

1). There are no, and have never been any, blood oaths in the temple. This is a favorite ploy of the antis to immediately cast us in the worst possible light, a "Jim Jones" kind of cult. This has been twisted. I went thru the temple when those particular things were happening. The intention was that you would not reveal the sacred things taught to you EVEN IF you were tortured in a cruel manner because these were sacred. It was never, in any way, "if you tell, we'll do this to you!!"

First, no non-LDS member, nor anyone who did not participate in Temple prior to the alleged changes can speak with any authority on this. Your explanation sounds reasonable. On the other hand, I'm wondering if some members may have perceived that if they told of the sacred rituals that GOD (not some secret order of enforcers--sorry--I just watched Da Vinci Code ) might punish them for the disclosure?

2). We are all mind-numbed robots at the beck and call of Pres Hinckley, or our other local leaders, to do anything that they tell us to do. Most of the members I know are intelligent, independent people that choose to be OBEDIENT to what our leaders, who we believe are called of God, suggest (not command, not dictate, SUGGEST) we do. I personally have a problem with authority. I hate it when I am told what to do (including, of course, by SWMBO, but there are consequences if I fail to obey her!). But when one of my called leaders suggests a course of action for me, I want to obey that because I know that in the end I will be happier. There are times that I wonder why, there are times that I don't agree, but I still do.

Whenever someone commits to joining a religious community, there are vows made, and loyalty is expected. On the other hand, people leave the church every day, and some have published alleged exposes that, should your group be a true cult, might have brought about retribution. These folk seem to prosper, so the allegations of mind-control do not even deserve to be answered, other than, "No we're not."

3). That we aren't Christians. This one really irks me. The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. The Book of Mormon says, right on the cover: The BOM, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. We have art of the Savior in every meeting hall of the church, we talk of Christ, we preach of Christ, etc. Now, it is true that our doctrine is different than most Protestant and Orthodox doctrines regarding faith and works, premortal existence, work for the dead, our ability to progress thru the eternities, etc. But to say we don't believe in Christ is ludicrous. Once, while working in the deep South, I had a gentleman during a meeting tell me "well, your Jesus is different from my Jesus." And I agreed. The Jesus I believe in is far more merciful, and yet far more strict than the Jesus of the world. The Jesus I believe in expects us to overcome the world, and not give in to its temptations. The Jesus I believe in requires of me a living, vibrant faith, not a mere belief in him as my personal Savior. Well did James state: “the devils also believe, and tremble.” The Jesus I believe in stands with open arms, waiting for me each night to come to him in humility and beg forgiveness for falling short of his expectations of me. The Jesus I believe in is the head of this church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

This one is not so simple. Who defines what a Christian is? Is there a set of doctrine that must be adherred to? Who decides? You view yourselves as restoration Christian--true latter day saints. Doctrinally, your beliefs vary on most major points with those of most other Christian sects. So, how right do you have to be, or how wrong can you be, and still be Christian? Those who say, "You're not even Christian," are not questioning your works, but rather your beliefs. The claim is that you are so far outside of orthodox teaching, that, in essence, you are a new religion that happens to worship the same God. I would argue that the situation is analgous with orthodox Jews being enraged by "Messianic Jews," saying that they are not Jews at all, but Chrstians practicing spiritual genocide (yes some jews feel that strongly about it).

See: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

[CrimsonKairos]

As I said, PC, the only test of who is a Christian is who loves others as Christ loved them?

Christ never mentioned doctrine, creeds, ordinances, etc... in determining who is his follower.

Now if people really mean, "Who's a saved Christian," when they ask, "Who's a Christian," then we get into the doctrinal stuff.

Otherwise, here's what a Christian (follower of Christ) is according to Christ:

1.) Love others as he loves them

[a-train]

If a man proclaims the divinity of Jesus and sets out to do good in His name, let him be called a Christian if that is his desire, regardless of what misconception he may possess with respect to the Saviour. If the man does nothing but iniquity and yet professes a belief in Christ, let us still honor that belief and remove ourselves from such judgements as the supposition his confession of Christ is a lie, for we know not the hearts of men. Let us never deny a man the privilege of professing Jesus' Lordship.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

If the man does nothing but iniquity and yet professes a belief in Christ, let us still honor that belief and remove ourselves from such judgements as the supposition his confession of Christ is a lie, for we know not the hearts of men.

He may know Christ is divine, but if he does nothing but iniquity, he's not a Christian. He's as one saying, "Lord, Lord," and expecting to return to God's presence. Christ said you must love others as he loves them to be considered his disciple. The gate is narrow, and the path straight, that leads back to God.

I may believe Buddha really lived and was inspired with certain teachings, but if I don't follow those teachings how can I be considered a Buddhist?

Being a believer and being a follower are not the same thing.

[a-train]

Crimson,

I understand your point fully and agree in every way that a man cannot please God with nothing more than a confession of Christ's divinity and a life of sin. There is no doubt to this great truth as you have well pointed out. My point is not to contradict you there. My hope is that we not judge a man and attempt to take away his profession of Christ simply because he cannot live up to it.

If I didn't do my home teaching last month, will my 'I'm a Mormon' privilege be revoked? What about if I lied? What if I harbored a hatred? What if I drank liquor? As serious as this trangression is, should I suddenly be unable to say 'I'm LDS'? Imagine I were in grave violation of my covenants and were in need of excommunication, can anyone but the priesthood brethren under the direction of the LORD do the excommunicating?

Take those Christians who have made no such covenant in the LDS Church and are not bound by such. Do we judge whether they are Christian? What are the requirements? How loving must they be? How can we know their heart? What if they believe in a 'hard love' which drives them to make attepts to save us Mormons from our seeming untoward ways? Where do we draw the line? Can WE draw the line? Who makes the distinction between the 'true' followers and the fake?

We know the LORD does. Let him make the decision in His time in His way. We need not revoke a man's privilege to call himself a Christian or even a Mormon simply because he cannot live up to the standards implied therein. Are any of us really living up to every standard? Who among us is really Christian?

I cannot suppose that the term 'Christian' actually explicitly defines a certain level of obedience. There are disobedient Mormons, disobedient Catholics, disobedient Republicans, and disobedient Christians. Indeed none of us is perfectly obedient. But, all of these are called by their designation for their ideals and their beliefs, not for their obedience.

'Now I got you!' The anti says. 'It is your belief that makes you Christian and you Mormons don't believe Christianity! Your not Christian!' We could easily make that same statement, but would it do any good? Will we bless those who curse us in mirroring this tactic?

Now I know the LORD said that his true disciples are they that love their fellow man, and I know there are many professing the LORD's name who shall be numbered with the goats, but let the LORD make that judgement and let us exhort and encourage all men in every slightest endeavor they undertake as a Christian.

Let us not stand guilty at the judgement bar as those who say to us: 'You are not Christian'. I see no edifying, no uplifting, no spirit of the LORD in that statement. But let us rather cry what the LORD has admonished us to cry. Let us cry as the 'watchmen upon the mount Ephraim': 'Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.' (Jer 31:6)

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[Brother Dorsey]

Well...this should answer everyones questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0uIVD1vtIw

[CrimsonKairos]

My hope is that we not judge a man and attempt to take away his profession of Christ simply because he cannot live up to it.

That wasn't my intent in posting. My point was that if anti-mormons are so set on declaring who is Christian and who is not, they ought to use the Savior's words as their guide, not the Nicene Creed. Most anti-mormons I've personally met or witnessed are not acting out of love or concern for anything other than proving they are right. They are insecure in their beliefs and need to bolster them by tearing down opposing views. Not all anti's, but the ones I've met.

I'm not attempting to say whether they are Christian or not. I was saying, "Here's the standard of who is a disciple of Christ. While you're classifying us, pray take a look in the mirror and include yourself in the process." The ones I've met are what Christ described in another setting...whited sepulchres, tombs that are clean and comely on their outside, but full of decay and rot inside.

Now I'm not worried to the point that I have to mentally determine whether everyone I meet is a Christian or not. I was simply going along with their need to classify, and attempting to point out the standard to be used. Nothing more.

If I didn't do my home teaching last month, will my 'I'm a Mormon' privilege be revoked? What about if I lied? What if I harbored a hatred? What if I drank liquor? As serious as this trangression is, should I suddenly be unable to say 'I'm LDS'?

We have a classic case of miscommunication here. When you referred to someone who proclaims the divinity of Christ but lives a life full of iniquity, I thought you meant someone who didn't even try to follow the Savior's example. Of course we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. I thought you were talking about those who don't care about repentance or eternity and who go to their grave worshipping their belly (appetites) without any attempt at self-reform or self-improvement.

Take those Christians who have made no such covenant in the LDS Church and are not bound by such. Do we judge whether they are Christian?

No. That's my point. LDS don't go about seeking to classify, scandalize or tear down any brand of faith in the name of doctrinal purity. It is the anti-mormons who are blind to the beam yet grasp for the mote.

We need not revoke a man's privilege to call himself a Christian or even a Mormon simply because he cannot live up to the standards implied therein.

That's precisely my point. You're preaching to the choir here a-train. Alas, the anti-mormons can't stomach such fair-mindedness.

'Now I got you!' The anti says. 'It is your belief that makes you Christian and you Mormons don't believe Christianity! Your not Christian!' We could easily make that same statement, but would it do any good?

Of course not. Again, that's my point. Why waste time classifying others when we could be serving Christ?

Now I know the LORD said that his true disciples are they that love their fellow man, and I know there are many professing the LORD's name who shall be numbered with the goats, but let the LORD make that judgement...

Lest I take on the character of a broken record, I will say one last time: This is my point. I wish the anti-mormons would take note of it.

[Snow]

This one is not so simple. Who defines what a Christian is? Is there a set of doctrine that must be adherred to? Who decides? You view yourselves as restoration Christian--true latter day saints. Doctrinally, your beliefs vary on most major points with those of most other Christian sects. So, how right do you have to be, or how wrong can you be, and still be Christian? Those who say, "You're not even Christian," are not questioning your works, but rather your beliefs. The claim is that you are so far outside of orthodox teaching, that, in essence, you are a new religion that happens to worship the same God. I would argue that the situation is analgous with orthodox Jews being enraged by "Messianic Jews," saying that they are not Jews at all, but Chrstians practicing spiritual genocide (yes some jews feel that strongly about it).

See: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

If by "Christian" you mean one who places their hope in Christ the Savior who in turn saves that believer, then no critic is qualified to judge who is Christian - that qualification belongs to God alone. If by Christian you mean something else - someone who believes in a way defined by someone other than God - then it would rather be like me saying, I know you claim to be a prison chaplain but you don't meet my definition of prison chaplain so you are not a prison chaplain.

[CrimsonKairos]

You bring up a good point, Snow. And it's a pleasant surprise to see you posting again.

I remember when I first joined this board I crossed swords with you over following the prophet or something. When I realized you were saying something different than what I was perceiving, I learned you were way cooler than I initially thought, and I was not near as cool as I initially felt. B)

[Dr T]

At least Snow probably knows how to spell vegan (Maybe I'll have all my faculties back after I get some sleep?!)

[Snow]

You bring up a good point, Snow. And it's a pleasant surprise to see you posting again.

I remember when I first joined this board I crossed swords with you over following the prophet or something. When I realized you were saying something different than what I was perceiving, I learned you were way cooler than I initially thought, and I was not near as cool as I initially felt. B)

Yeah - sorry, it's a bad habit. I give everybody a hard time at one point or another and if they can still stand me after that then we usually get along pretty well after that... till the next time I am obnoxious with them anyway.

Nice to see you again.

[a-train]

I can't remember the subject or whatever, but I remember the first time I read posts from Snow when I started coming a couple months back. I had to read a few to determine if Snow was pro or anti LDS. Dude was stabbin' fools! I finally realized Snow is great, makes good points, and has a deep understanding of the scriptures and the Gospel. Snow just has a bit of a short temper or perhaps a thin patience. Whatever you call it, it spices the forum up when it shines through.

I still squirm a little with that eye blinking at me though.....

I like Snow.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

If by "Christian" you mean one who places their hope in Christ the Savior who in turn saves that believer, then no critic is qualified to judge who is Christian - that qualification belongs to God alone. If by Christian you mean something else - someone who believes in a way defined by someone other than God - then it would rather be like me saying, I know you claim to be a prison chaplain but you don't meet my definition of prison chaplain so you are not a prison chaplain.

The question may not only be WHAT defines a Christian, but WHO? And--by who's authority? Catholics let their hierarchy define who is truly Catholic--and even who, outside the church, might qualify for salvation. Likewise, with your church, there is authority in the leadership and in the sacred writings of latter day prophets.

We protestants live with greater ambuity. Our hierarchies define and ordain leadership, and we set membership qualifications and standards for adherents. However, beyond that, the question of who is or is not a Christian comes down to "God knows." Beyond that, far better for those who beg to differ to say, "You don't beleive as I do, and I believe I'm right...so, let us break bread at the table of intelligent faith-sharing."

BTW: My identity as a prison chaplain can be verified by the Federal Government, by the General Council of the Assemblies of God, and, most authoritatively, by praying to God and having Him confirm my calling (at least that last one worked for me).