"anti" Propoganda

[WillowTheWhisp]

Other people seize on the example of the Good Thief as a loophole in the doctrine that baptism is required for salvation, as though God, the very source and dispenser of grace, is bound by the normative means by which he brings that grace to men.

Jesus said "you shall be with me in Paradise"

As Latter-day Saints we believe that when we die we go to the spirit world and that the spirit world is divided into prison and paradise. The former for those who died as unbelievers and the latter for deceased believers who died without baptism. Those in the 'prison' can progress to the 'paradise' by being taught and accepting th Gospel in the spirit world but when it comes to the final judgement and allocation of an eternal home then they cannot progress through to the Celestial Kingdom unless baptism is performed on their behalf.

So, when Jesus told the thief he would be with him in Paradise he didn't mean getting to Heaven without baptism.

[tiancum]

Once, a well meaning Christian told me I believed in a different Jesus than him. I said, "I believe in the one that was born in Bethlehem, who healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out devils, sacrificed for my sins, died and rose on the 3rd day. Why...which one do you believe in?" (that didn't make him happy)

He then said, you believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers. I replied....Actually, no I don't...Satan is a bastard...... (I didn't say this, but i believe he has no father, he gave up his birthright when he was exposed and came out in open rebellion, and was cast down. He and his followers are not part of the eternal family. )

I then said, "What might be confusing you is that Satan was an angel with authority in God's presence like the Bible says, and God created him, and many Christians believe that if God creates something, He is it's father. It's a bit of a stretch, but i can see your thinking. Your argument is persuasive, but I still don't believe Satan and Jesus are brothers though, sorry."

Aren't I horrible?

[Dr T]

Tiancum, is that to say that you do not believe Jesus and Satan were both

Literal/physical offspring of God in the same way?

[tiancum]

No I don't... Christ is the only begotten. (literal/physical as you say)...

[WillowTheWhisp]

Tiancum are you LDS?

[Francine]

As Latter-day Saints we believe that when we die we go to the spirit world and that the spirit world is divided into prison and paradise. The former for those who died as unbelievers and the latter for deceased believers who died without baptism. Those in the 'prison' can progress to the 'paradise' by being taught and accepting th Gospel in the spirit world....

1 Peter 3:19 says "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison". This seems to indicate that the prison existed before Calvary for those souls who died prior to the coming of the gospel of Christ. Now that salvation has come through the shed blood of Christ, it doesn't make sense that the prison would continue to exist and be filled with spirits, for then Christ would have to continually preach. This is what he established the Church to do on Earth: Preach to all nations.

[Iggy]

Historically, conversion to Christianity was a longer process than just saying "Jesus come into my heart as my Personal Lord and Savior." It took from one to three years and culminated during Holy Week with baptism and the laying on of hands to confer the Holy Spirit. If the catechumen died of natural causes or accidents during that long process before baptism, they were considered to have been saved by their desire to come into the Kingdom of God. Catechumens who were put to death by opponents to Christianity before their water baptism were said to have gone through the baptism of blood.

Francine, where are you getting your information here? References please- a link would be very helpful.

[Dr T]

Tiacum,

I don't believe He was literally/physically begotten in that way. He is unique from all others.

[tiancum]

Tiancum are you LDS?

Yup!

How come?

[tiancum]

Tiacum,

I don't believe He was literally/physically begotten in that way. He is unique from all others.

I dont understand what you mean Dr T

[WillowTheWhisp]

1 Peter 3:19 says "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison". This seems to indicate that the prison existed before Calvary for those souls who died prior to the coming of the gospel of Christ. Now that salvation has come through the shed blood of Christ, it doesn't make sense that the prison would continue to exist and be filled with spirits, for then Christ would have to continually preach. This is what he established the Church to do on Earth: Preach to all nations.

Yes of course the Church preaches to all nations but what about those nations which were not reached? Between Christ preaching to the spirits in Prison and today there have been countless numbers of people who have simply not had the opportunity to hear the gospel themselves. I'm puzzled that you can say it doesn't make sense that Prison would continue to exist. Where else would these people go? They have not had the opportunity to believe in something they have never heard of so they cannot go to Paradise. Just as Christ established the Church and commissioned his followers to preach on earth the spirits of the faithful deceased also preach to the spirits in Prison. When Christ said "It is finished." that was the Atonement, not the preaching.

Yup!

How come?

I may have misunderstood what you said on the subject of Lucifer and Jesus - the LDS teaching is that we are all spirit brothers and sister, including Lucifer and his followers. I was a little puzzled that you said you do not believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Jesus was the only begotten in the flesh but not the only child of Heavenly Father in the spirit world. True Lucifer lost his chance of being part of the eternal family but he was born into that family.

[Francine]

Yes of course the Church preaches to all nations but what about those nations which were not reached? Between Christ preaching to the spirits in Prison and today there have been countless numbers of people who have simply not had the opportunity to hear the gospel themselves.

That should spur us on to great efforts to reach them with the Gospel. However, I do not know of a scripture that says the gospel is preached to the dead, other than the passage in 1st Peter, which is in past tense, indicating a one time event.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That should spur us on to great efforts to reach them with the Gospel.

I agree with you there but I cannot believe a loving Heavenly Father would simply say "You haven't had the Gospel preached to you during your lifetime so tough you can't come in." I believe he has provided a way for EVERYONE to have that opportunity because he loves us all.

[prisonchaplain]

Romans 1 indicates that we are without excuse--that nature itself reveals that God is. Obviously, to have an actual presentation of the Good News by knowledgeable, Holy Spirit-empowered believers is the better way. So, indeed we must be diligent and maintain a sense of urgency about missionary work. As to who gets in and who doesn't based on who knows what...I leave that to God's justice, and thank Him continuously that He is God, and I am not.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Romans 1 indicates that we are without excuse--that nature itself reveals that God is. Obviously, to have an actual presentation of the Good News by knowledgeable, Holy Spirit-empowered believers is the better way.

So you're saying that God expects people to believe in him even though they haven't been told anything about him because his creations can be clearly seen? How cruel that would be

I was under the impression that Paul was writing to existing converts, people who had already been taught the Gospel but who might have been going astray when he wrote those words. Of course those people who read it would already have heard. Paul was writing to existing churches at the time.

[prisonchaplain]

So you're saying that God expects people to believe in him even though they haven't been told anything about him because his creations can be clearly seen? How cruel that would be

Is it though? God is, by definition, just. So, if that is what God says, then it is fair, and is not cruel. He clearly says that we are without excuse. We could speculate as to whether those who merely have God's nature might respond in a less doctinally definite way than those who grew up in Utah or in the Bible belt--but I find no need to speculate. I start with my trust that God is good and just. I do not need know how God will specifically deal with those who did not have a full presentation of the Good News. Rather, because I know God wants the lost to know, I am spurred to support missions efforts, and do be the best evangelist with my actions and my words.

I was under the impression that Paul was writing to existing converts, people who had already been taught the Gospel but who might have been going astray when he wrote those words.

The letter was addressed to the church. However, in this passage he speak more generally, "Men are without excuse." Additionally, he gets pretty graphic about what they are doing--and we're not talking about church gatherings!

Of course those people who read it would already have heard. Paul was writing to existing churches at the time.

And again...this particular passage addresses the greater issue of everyone's personal responsiblity (agency)...men are without excuse...they've been given over to depravity...is that really talking about current church members?

[tiancum]

I may have misunderstood what you said on the subject of Lucifer and Jesus - the LDS teaching is that we are all spirit brothers and sister, including Lucifer and his followers.

Wanna know some interesting trivia? Some GA have actually said that Satan is not to be called Lucifer any more. For he gave up that name/title. Many refer to his preexistant state, when he WAS Lucifer, but they call him other names for who he has devolved into now.

I don't believe they are, or we are brothers with him nor his followers any more. They literally gave up their birthright. Doing so in the old testament (especially)

They have lost all the blessings that the children of God are entitled to.

[Dr T]

Tiancum,

I meant that I do not believe God procreated spirit children and had relations like man and woman do to have children.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Wanna know some interesting trivia? Some GA have actually said that Satan is not to be called Lucifer any more. For he gave up that name/title. Many refer to his preexistant state, when he WAS Lucifer, but they call him other names for who he has devolved into now.

I don't believe they are, or we are brothers with him nor his followers any more. They literally gave up their birthright. Doing so in the old testament (especially)

They have lost all the blessings that the children of God are entitled to.

When I use the name Lucifer I am using it to refer to him in the spirit world when he was 'son of the morning' before his rebellion and fall from Heavenly Father's presence. The fact that he has lost his birthright by his own actions doesn't change the fact that he was born the spirit son of the same Heavenly parents as you and me, and our brother Jehovah who was born on earth as Jesus of Nazareth.

The Scriptures call him Lucifer then and so I will continue to refer to him as Lucifer then and Satan now. I do not believe this is in contradiction to what your General Authority trivia says.

You know if I had a child who went off the rails and I disowned them and wrote them out of my will I still wouldn't be able to undo the fact that at one time I'd given birth to them. This is the same as what I am saying about Lucifer/Satan.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Is it though? God is, by definition, just. So, if that is what God says, then it is fair, and is not cruel. He clearly says that we are without excuse. We could speculate as to whether those who merely have God's nature might respond in a less doctinally definite way than those who grew up in Utah or in the Bible belt--but I find no need to speculate. I start with my trust that God is good and just. I do not need know how God will specifically deal with those who did not have a full presentation of the Good News. Rather, because I know God wants the lost to know, I am spurred to support missions efforts, and do be the best evangelist with my actions and my words.

And Latter-day Saints are spurred on to do more Temple work for those very same reasons. A just and loving God who makes provision for ALL to hear and choose whom they will follow.

[JonboySquarepants]

willow, the book of mormon says:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

37 And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should work out your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ;"

alma 34:32-37

if God says that "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world," then why do temple work for people that already died? isn't saying they can't accept him after they're dead?

[tiancum]

You know if I had a child who went off the rails and I disowned them and wrote them out of my will I still wouldn't be able to undo the fact that at one time I'd given birth to them. This is the same as what I am saying about Lucifer/Satan.

I totally understand. I just get a little tired of the same old argument the "Antis" use against us, and was giving an alternative to the usual way things go when they mention this. simply a different...not wrong...way of seeing things.

[prisonchaplain]

I totally understand. I just get a little tired of the same old argument the "Antis" use against us, and was giving an alternative to the usual way things go when they mention this. simply a different...not wrong...way of seeing things.

It is, of course, shocking to Protestants and Catholics, to hear talk of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers. Even of Lucifer had never rebelled, the idea that Jesus is the brother of an angel would not sit well with us.

Which brings to mind a questions: do LDS believe that angels and humans are originally the same species?

[JonboySquarepants]

PC, the lds church believes that all of us, angels and humans, are literal spirit children of heavenly father and heavenly mother. that included jesus, the holy spirit, lucifer, and the 1/3 that followed lucifer. so, yeah, i guess you could say that lds church believes we're all of the same species.

[Francine]

PC, the lds church believes that all of us, angels and humans, are literal spirit children of heavenly father and heavenly mother. that included jesus, the holy spirit, lucifer, and the 1/3 that followed lucifer. so, yeah, i guess you could say that lds church believes we're all of the same species.

It's hard to imagine we are the same species with angels, when angels do not get married.

Mark.12:[25] For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.