"anti" Propoganda

[Dr T]

There's your first mistake it is not 3 essences but 1. 3 part of an egg is not modalism at all. Maybe your difficulty is not truly understanding what the Trinity is. You've used words that are not a description of the Trinity. I do agree "God is a mystery" I cannot comprehend his greatness but I can apprehend it from what is laid out in scripture. I would love to address those with you. Start another thread and lay out for me how the creeds are not consistent with the Trinity and we can work from there. Thank you sir :)

[rameumptom]

Where in the Bible does it state that we have a heavenly mother?

I'm getting completely lost here..

Most Biblical scholars, including William Dever and Margaret Barker, have written on more than one occasion that God is shown in ancient Hebrew writings and art as having a consort, or wife.

(You can buy Dever's book here at Amazon.com: Amazon.com: Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And Folk Religion In Ancient Israel: Books: William G. Dever )

(Here is Judith Hadley's book: Amazon.com: The Cult of Asherah in Ancient Israel and Judah: Evidence for a Hebrew Goddess (University of Cambridge Oriental Publications, Vol. 57): Books: Judith M. Hadley )

The Bible was heavily edited by certain later consortiums of people, known as the Priest Group and the Deuteronomists, to remove God's wife out of the holy writ and create a true monotheism based solely around the temple. Margaret Barker writes that this Deuteronomic change was one of the key Josian Reforms that the prophet Jeremiah and others fought against, and is suggested in the Book of Mormon by Lehi and Nephi having a vision of the Tree of Life (symbol of God's wife - in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus) in a form of temple ritual.

Proverbs references this Heavenly Mother by calling her Wisdom, and later she is known as Sophia/Sophos/Knowledge. Some early Christian writings suggest a strong tie between God and his wife, as well.

[Dale]

Where in the Bible does it state that we have a heavenly mother?

I'm getting completely lost here..

Community of Christ do not accept the idea of the heavenly mother as do LDS. I feel the Father created spirit's through Jesus. But LDS read some new Testament scripture's that most take as saying we can become God's adopted children as indication we are spirit children of God. I do not object to God as being Father via creation, or adoption. I am uncertain of the need for a procreative process to beget spirit children in heaven idea though.

The Bible is not the final authority regarding matter's of faith and practice. I don't see the idea of a heavenly mother in the Bible, nor needing to be in the Bible. Nothing in the restoration prevent's a prophet from learning something previously unknown to a former prophet.

[rameumptom]

Community of Christ do not accept the idea of the heavenly mother as do LDS. I feel the Father created spirit's through Jesus. But LDS read some new Testament scripture's that most take as saying we can become God's adopted children as indication we are spirit children of God. I do not object to God as being Father via creation, or adoption. I am uncertain of the need for a procreative process to beget spirit children in heaven idea though.

The Bible is not the final authority regarding matter's of faith and practice. I don't see the idea of a heavenly mother in the Bible, nor needing to be in the Bible. Nothing in the restoration prevent's a prophet from learning something previously unknown to a former prophet.

Well, LDS do think that when Paul calls God the "Father of our spirits", we should take that literally, and not just metaphorically. I do agree there is an adoption process, as well. While we spiritually are God's children, we still need, as physical/spiritual entities, to be adopted into the clan through Jesus Christ. This occurs with baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. LDS place a strong emphasis on being members of the House of Israel, which is defined to us through our patriarchal blessings. A patriarch is called and set apart in most stakes, and pronounces inspired blessings which includes designating a person's adopted Israelite lineage (mine is Ephraim).

This is why LDS can say that spiritually, Lucifer and Christ were brothers at one time, but no longer are. Satan rejected his birthright as a spirit child of God, and was tossed from the family.

[Dale]

I do not know why creating spirit's outside a body would make God's spirit children less his. I do not think that would make the heavenly mother less of a mother to her spirit children. I feel Joseph Smith's idea was that spirit's were uncreated. But that human father's and mother's needed to provide bodies for those spirit's. I feel LDS leader's after his death assumed the "continuation of the seeds" part of D.&C. 132 meant spirit children were born to heavenly parents. I think it refers to having physical children myself.

I think D.&C. 29:30-31 involve's Jesus in the creation of spirit's. It say's "For by the power of my spirit created i them: yea, all things both spiritual and temporal. Vs. 30 indicate's the thing's referred to include human beings and spirit's. I do not think it alway's wise to base personal doctrine on official statement's or sermon's of leaders. I think Joseph Smith had his speculative side as did Brigham Young. Community of Christ leader's have been mostly less speculative. I do not accept D.&C. 132 as scripture, but it's important to understanding Joseph Smith's Nauvoo theology. Jesus Christ was the one speaking in the document. (D.&C. 29:1)

I think Evangelical's have been to quick the reject the idea any aspect of Jesus could have been created. I have Richard Hopkin's Biblical Mormonism book. Some take based on a word study that Jesus is only Firstborn only meaning in a pre-eminent sense. He argued the word firstborn based on a solid alternative word study can mean first-born. Jesus could indeed have had a spirit body created before the angel's form's. So that would make Jesus and Lucifer brother's even if Jesus created Lucifer. (Collossians 1:15)

The argument which is flawed is that how can they be related if Jesus created Lucifer? I see the Father as being the Father even if he worked through an creative agent the Son. I do not object to the heavenly mother and Father idea only the method spirit's were created.

[prisonchaplain]

Most Biblical scholars, including William Dever and Margaret Barker, have written on more than one occasion that God is shown in ancient Hebrew writings and art as having a consort, or wife.

While there are sure to be a smattering of Hebrew scholars that would conjur up such theories, I'm highly skeptical that "most" do. Additionally, while the LDS canon is not closed, neither does it include any of these extra-biblical writings you allude to.

The Bible was heavily edited by certain later consortiums of people, known as the Priest Group and the Deuteronomists, to remove God's wife out of the holy writ and create a true monotheism based solely around the temple. Margaret Barker writes that this Deuteronomic change was one of the key Josian Reforms that the prophet Jeremiah and others fought against, and is suggested in the Book of Mormon by Lehi and Nephi having a vision of the Tree of Life (symbol of God's wife - in this case, Mary the mother of Jesus) in a form of temple ritual.

I'm usually not too impressed by claims that the good guys lost in the process of determining the biblical canon. Suggestions that there were conspiracies, and that God was so impotent that He allowed his Word to be corrupted by heretics and schemers are equally wanting, imho.

Proverbs references this Heavenly Mother by calling her Wisdom, and later she is known as Sophia/Sophos/Knowledge.

Please let us not conflate Solomon's profound poetry about the virtues of wisdom (sorry...but the best interpretation is usually the most direct one, imho) with the Greek cult of Sophia--resurrected by feminist theologians in a few of the modern mainstream denominations.

Some early Christian writings suggest a strong tie between God and his wife, as well.

Once again, I'm loathe to rely on extra-biblical, often heretical writings, for my speculations about the nature of God.

[Dale]

I think myself Isreal used to venerate such a goddess. The evidence through archeology they found to support that seemed impressive to me. I did a quick search on Maragert Barker at the FARMs website and the articles with the documentation came up.

I don't know of any way to classify from the Bible the idea of a wife of God heretical. The Bible seems silent to me on the issue. What proof from the Bible do we have against the idea of a heavenly mother?

With LDS writing's not even scripture is the final authority. Extra Biblical sources can be used to understand the theology of ancient Israel. Such extra Biblical writing's is they show Ancient Israel was not orthodox mono-theistic. if i recall right the wife of God had been worked for year's into temple worship. And that the Deuteronomic reform kicked her out of the temple?

With the Deuteronmic reform the idea of a distinct Father and Son were expunged from the Old Testament. Margaret Barker's case is based on the earliest available manuscripts. I am not one at giving an adequate summary of her scholarship. FARMS has done such a summary though, and Margaret Barker has her own website. I am not sure if she provides a summary of that research though.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know of any way to classify from the Bible the idea of a wife of God heretical. The Bible seems silent to me on the issue. What proof from the Bible do we have against the idea of a heavenly mother?

If the reading of most Christians, Muslims, and Jews of the OT Scriptures is correct--that there is only one true and living God, distinct from his creation always and forever, then the idea of the one God having marital relations with one of his creations seems bizarre. Of course, the LDS understanding of pre-existence makes such possible. But still...not necesarrily the first or best understanding, imho.

[Dale]

The Trinity idea is such a heresy to Jews. Outreach Judaism if i recall the name right is a Jewish apologetic's group. They consider placing a distinct person within God as placing what's close to another God next to God. I see the Trinity idea a departure from strict mono-theism.

My chief objection to the Trinity is i see the person's of God definable as three modern person's. The creedal writer's avoided that modern definition by saying the person's of God were like the person's of an actor. But the three since they arn't three role's of God have can be defined as three modern person's. Only three person's are aware of each other. One can throw out a bunch of other creedal developed concept's to avoid that, but the ancient latin word persona was the term they chose. The person's an actor play's via face mask's are totally dumb.

If Jesus can be with God then why couldn't a heavenly Mother? Once mono-theism is qualified what's a bit more qualification? I have read some Old Testament proof's for a heavenly mother i am uncertain of. I don't know she fit's into the Bible, but i was looking for a stronger scripture to contradict her existence. The heavenly mother would not be before or after God as God. I do not think the scripture's prevent other heavenly being's called god's atleast.

The heavenly mother would not be one of God's creation's. I figure she was married to God on one of the Father's Father's creations. I doubt LDS belief would fit the idea that she was selected from among God's spirit children.

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