Undisputed church Saints, of all christian faiths.

[KountC]

Greetings,

I just wanted to ask if the LDS faith, recognizes the early church martyrs,

such as St. Sebastian, or St. Justin. As Saints, in the kingdom of heaven.

Also I had been interested in some time, about making short films about the martyrdom of St Sebastian and St. Justin.

My favorite Saint, being Sebastian, who was martyred twice. Is this recognized by the LDS church ?

Cheers!

[Vort]

It is almost meaningless to ask if the LDS Church "recognizes" a "Saint," because the word means something very different for us from how Catholics understand it. In our vernacular, a "saint" is a member of God's church and kingdom. Sebastian lived at a time when the Christian Church was surely in apostasy. I very seriously doubt the Priesthood was held among men. So by definition, he could not have been a "saint", because the church of Christ no longer existed on the earth.

Also, the LDS Church does not really bother "recognizing" official "martyrdoms". The idea of someone being martyred twice seems a contradiction in terms, though I have heard some Latter-day Saint speakers talk of President John Taylor as having been "martyred twice". Seeing as how he lived into his eighties, many decades after having been shot, I kind of don't think so.

[KountC]

Interesting i thank you for the information. Does the church of LDS recognize early martyrs as martyrs? What is the grounds for martyrdom?

[Just_A_Guy]

You'll hear LDS church leaders speak generally of "martyrs" and sometimes apply that apelation to people who lived during the time periods of which you speak. But Mormonism has no official mechanism for designating a "martyr" as such; nor do we have any set theology saying that someone who happened to die a martyr's death necessarily has any special status in Heaven over someone who didn't.

[Finrock]

I would disagree, somewhat, with Vort. Simply being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not make one a saint anymore than being confirmed a member of the Church means someone has received the Holy Ghost and have been baptized by fire and spirit.

I have no doubt that some of the early martyrs were indeed saints. They were baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even after the Church was in disarray there were many faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ who remained until they died. The apostles may have all been dead and the Church may have been in apostasy but there were humble followers of Christ on the earth during that time and they died for their faith, glorifying Christ with their last breath, being willing to submit to all things which the Lord saw fit to inflict upon them.

There is no special designation of "saint" in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as in the Catholic church. All who are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ are Saints. I think many latter-day members take the designation of "saint" for granted. We must become saints, not just by being baptized and confirmed a member, but also through our faithful and loyal obedience to Jesus Christ.

King Benjamin said the following about becoming a saint:

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

-Finrock

Edited January 30, 2014 by Finrock
Grammar, clarification

[Guest]

Finrock said what I wanted to say.

[Vort]

I would disagree, somewhat, with Vort. Simply being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not make one a saint anymore than being confirmed a member of the Church means someone has received the Holy Ghost and have been baptized by fire and spirit.

As a matter of definition, I believe this is incorrect. A "saint" is a member of the earthly kingdom of God, which is to say a member of the Church. It does not suggest any particular level of spiritual refinement, as does receiving the Holy Ghost.

[Traveler]

As usual - I disagree with almost everybody.

I believe that as children of G-d all mankind by their very mortal creation are a saint by destiny. I believe that it is for this purpose that we LDS do baptisms for the dead in our temples - to seal sainthood upon all mankind. Thus I personally believe in the same manner that our US constitutions assumes innocence until proven guilty in a court of law - I assume all are saints until proven otherwise in judgement before G-d.

The Traveler

[Vort]

As usual - I disagree with almost everybody.

I believe that as children of G-d all mankind by their very mortal creation are a saint by destiny. I believe that it is for this purpose that we LDS do baptisms for the dead in our temples - to seal sainthood upon all mankind. Thus I personally believe in the same manner that our US constitutions assumes innocence until proven guilty in a court of law - I assume all are saints until proven otherwise in judgement before G-d.

What do you make of the term "Latter-day Saint" in the Church's name?

[NeuroTypical]

You mention martyrdom, KountC. This is a bit off your topic, but I read Foxe's book of Martyrs, and was fascinated to see people who made the cut. I didn't know the following people would be considered martyrs:

Polycarp tried to run:

"Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place."

Hermenigildus defended himself, and fled:

"Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

Seven soldiers tried to escape:

"In the year of our Lord 251, the emperor Decius having erected a pagan temple at Ephesus, he commanded all who were in that city to sacrifice to the idols. This order was nobly refused by seven of his own soldiers, viz. Maximianus, Martianus, Joannes, Malchus, Dionysius, Seraion, and Constantinus. The emperor wishing to win these soldiers to renounce their faith by his entreaties and lenity, gave them a considerable respite until he returned from an expedition. During the emperor's absence, they escaped, and hid themselves in a cavern; which the emperor being informed of at his return, the mouth of the cave was closed up, and they all perished with hunger."

Fabian was martyred not because he professed Christ, but for other reasons:

"Fabian, the bishop of Rome, was the first person of eminence who felt the severity of this persecution. The deceased emperor, Philip, had, on account of his integrity, committed his treasure to the care of this good man. But Decius, not finding as much as his avarice made him expect, determined to wreak his vengeance on the good prelate. He was accordingly seized; and on January 20, A.D. 250, he suffered decapitation."

Nichomachus actually recanted:

"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately."

Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily:

"Agatha, a Sicilian lady, was not more remarkable for her personal and acquired endowments, than her piety; her beauty was such, that Quintian, governor of Sicily, became enamored of her, and made many attempts upon her chastity without success. In order to gratify his passions with the greater conveniency, he put the virtuous lady into the hands of Aphrodica, a very infamous and licentious woman. This wretch tried every artifice to win her to the desired prostitution; but found all her efforts were vain; for her chastity was impregnable, and she well knew that virtue alone could procure true happiness. Aphrodica acquainted Quintian with the inefficacy of her endeavors, who, enaged to be foiled in his designs, changed his lust into resentment. On her confessing that she was a Christian, he determined to gratify his revenge, as he could not his passion. Pursuant to his orders, she was scourged, burnt with red-hot irons, and torn with sharp hooks. Having borne these torments with admirable fortitude, she was next laid naked upon live coals, intermingled with glass, and then being carried back to prison, she there expired on February 5, 251."

An unnamed Christian was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:

"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

The book also records people given the title Martyr, who were persecuted by the Church of Rome:

"The brave earl defended Toulouse and other places with the most heroic bravery and various success against the pope's legates and Simon, earl of Montfort, a bigoted Catholic nobleman. Unable to subdue the earl of Toulouse openly, the king of France, and the queen mother, and three archbishops raised another formidable army, and had the art to persuade the earl of Toulouse to come to a conference, when he was treacherously seized upon, made a prisoner, forced to appear barefooted and bareheaded before his enemies, and compelled to subscribe an abject recantation. This was followed by a severe persecution against the Albigenses; and express orders that the laity should not be permitted to read the sacred Scriptures."

[skippy740]

Per lds.org and Guide to the Scriptures:

Saint

Saint

See also Christians; Church of Jesus Christ; Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The

A faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

[Traveler]

What do you make of the term "Latter-day Saint" in the Church's name?

I believe that it is a designation of a dispensation or era. To continue this discussion - Do you think Jesus used a Samaritan as a "better" example of a saint over a priest (Levitt - priesthood) and a rabbi in his parable of the Good Samaritan?

The Traveler

[Finrock]

Hi Vort. I hope all is well with you today! :)

As a matter of definition, I believe this is incorrect. A "saint" is a member of the earthly kingdom of God, which is to say a member of the Church. It does not suggest any particular level of spiritual refinement, as does receiving the Holy Ghost.

Mosiah suggest that becoming a saint is a matter of spiritual refinement. In fact, the Guide to the Scriptures defines a saint specifically as a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ. This implies spiritual refinement. Certainly we can use the term generically to include all members of the Church but there are too many scriptures that would exclude all members of the Church because they aren't really saints, but rather imposters.

I think neither historically or in moden times does the designation "saint" simply mean being a baptized member of the Church. There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ are saints who will stand on Mount Zion (D&C 84:2). There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ will judge the world (1 Cor. 1:2). There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ will be crowned at the right hand of the Son (Moses 7:56). Not unless they become saints as was taught by King Benjamin. A saint is one who is holy. In fact you could replace saints with the term "holy ones".

This is why I mentioned that many members take the designation of "saint" for granted. They don't often consider what the implications of being called a saint are or that it is even meaningful. The designation of saint is not frivolous or a fancy word for being a member. It designates a person who is humble, meek, submissive, full of charity, and a loyal believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

Finally, consider this scripture in Romans:

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are called to be saints. We are called to be holy. We become holy through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

[Quin]

It may also be key to note / what I think is the spirit of your question: that while we don't canonize saints in the Catholic method... We DO recognize many that are canonized as saints.

St. Michalel, for example, we recognize and hold up as the Archangel Michael.

Which is WHY he's a Saint.

Ditto all of the other angels that are canonized as saints.

St. Mary / The Blessed Virgin/ etc... We still revere as Jesus's mother and the frankly amazing woman she was.

Noah & Moses et al are still prophets.

So we recognize both the individual AND the acts... We just don't have a title in addition to their other titles.

They are still deeply important to us, though, even though they don't have an additional title. And, like Catholicism, many feel particularly drawn to one or more individuals who are Catholic Saints (ditto those in the Book of Mormon, who -if we canonized- would be. Like Helamon, or Nephi). We don't ask for intercession from them, however (like with patron saints). We go directly to the Holy Ghost/ The Spirit for that, while most try to apply the things to their own life from those we particularly respect, admire, feel kinship with. So, while a Catholic mother may turn to The Blessed Virgin for guidance / comfort, an LDS mother may look to Mary's life for guidance & comfort, and emulate her own actions of selflessness as guidance and turning to the Spirit for comfort, just as Mary did. It's a very near thing. Albeit still a different thing.

Q

[The Folk Prophet]

Hi Vort. I hope all is well with you today! :)

Mosiah suggest that becoming a saint is a matter of spiritual refinement. In fact, the Guide to the Scriptures defines a saint specifically as a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ. This implies spiritual refinement. Certainly we can use the term generically to include all members of the Church but there are too many scriptures that would exclude all members of the Church because they aren't really saints, but rather imposters.

I think neither historically or in moden times does the designation "saint" simply mean being a baptized member of the Church. There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ are saints who will stand on Mount Zion (D&C 84:2). There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ will judge the world (1 Cor. 1:2). There is no way that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ will be crowned at the right hand of the Son (Moses 7:56). Not unless they become saints as was taught by King Benjamin. A saint is one who is holy. In fact you could replace saints with the term "holy ones".

This is why I mentioned that many members take the designation of "saint" for granted. They don't often consider what the implications of being called a saint are or that it is even meaningful. The designation of saint is not frivolous or a fancy word for being a member. It designates a person who is humble, meek, submissive, full of charity, and a loyal believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

Finally, consider this scripture in Romans:

We are called to be saints. We are called to be holy. We become holy through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

You're both right. Latter-day Saints us the term "saint" both ways. Referring to any member of the church as a saint is appropriate. But truly becoming a saint required that we become holy, etc...