Banning Harry Potter

[Dr T]

I never read it. There was a movie with the same title that I saw back in the 80's. It was kind of scary.

[Guest mamacat]

Perhaps reading should be banned. Writing too.

Perhaps if a witch put a spell on that chick, she would ease up and let the kids read their books.

Next she'll say that Annie is satanic because the musical makes kids adore a wealthy lifestyle and think that success is measured in materialism. Plus, it's full of evil dancing (dancing is evil) and Annie's red hair is symbolic of Satan.

Perhaps musicals should be banned also. Movies too, those gotta go. Let's just not teach our children language or anything at all, they're just getting confused by all this mess.

-a-train

lol lol

[Dr T]

Maybe a witch put a spell on J.K.R. so a lot of kids will read the Harry Potter books and get interested in occultic practice.

[Guest mamacat]

maybe a sorcerer did.

[Guest Yediyd]

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So, if I understand her right, she wants to keep Harry Potter books out of public schools because they violate separation of church and state (she obviously doesn't know a thing about Wicca!), but she also wants to welcome her (presumably Christian) God back into schools. This cracks me up--doesn't she understand that she's contradicting her own argument? No wonder the judge ruled against her!

Dror

The problem is most people have no clue what the "separation of church and state" originally meant...our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves as we speak.

The clause was written to keep the government from telling people what religion to belong to or to having a national religon. You have to remember the main reason people emigrated to this country in the 17th & 18th centuries...to avoid religous persecution. In Sweden alone you had to be a member of the national church. The separation of church and state was to keep the government out of running the church or having anything to do with it, or forcing people to be members of any given church. Not to stop people from praying or displaying their beliefs in a public place. If the liberals and the ACLU really believe that stopping my children from asking God to bless their food at lunch in school is a violation of the separation of church and state then they can send me all their evil money which states "in God we trust"

Here, here, Br.!!!!!!!!

[orrinjelo]

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So, if I understand her right, she wants to keep Harry Potter books out of public schools because they violate separation of church and state (she obviously doesn't know a thing about Wicca!), but she also wants to welcome her (presumably Christian) God back into schools. This cracks me up--doesn't she understand that she's contradicting her own argument? No wonder the judge ruled against her!

Dror

The problem is most people have no clue what the "separation of church and state" originally meant...our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves as we speak.

The clause was written to keep the government from telling people what religion to belong to or to having a national religon. You have to remember the main reason people emigrated to this country in the 17th & 18th centuries...to avoid religous persecution. In Sweden alone you had to be a member of the national church. The separation of church and state was to keep the government out of running the church or having anything to do with it, or forcing people to be members of any given church. Not to stop people from praying or displaying their beliefs in a public place. If the liberals and the ACLU really believe that stopping my children from asking God to bless their food at lunch in school is a violation of the separation of church and state then they can send me all their evil money which states "in God we trust"

Here, here, Br.!!!!!!!!

*sigh* I'm afraid I'm on the softer skirts of the church--my view is there should be no censorship period. The only time I felt like censoring a book was after I had read "Jay's Journal" and had such a dark feeling afterwards (which is about REAL witchcraft, supposedly happened to an LDS kid who messed with the stuff). But now I still wouldn't censor the book....

Some of Orson Scott Card's books are pretty....how do you put it? Graphic? And bizarre. Kinda strange that he's LDS too. But still, I wouldn't censor that.

With Harry Potter, the message isn't at all having to do with witchcraft; magic is the medium, just like in many fairy tales. The ultimate theme is good conquors evil (now I suppose I ruined the outcome fo the seventh book?? )

Now here is what is bad: Once I saw this in an elementry school's book order catalogue (Like Scholastic or something). The were selling a couple of Harry Potter books, then had a book of witchcraft they were selling right beside it, kinda like a value pack or something. I wish I had kept the picture of it. So stupid!!!

Edit: Hehe, I suppose my avatar is really inappropriate for this topic and this forum. LOL I'll change it.

[a-train]

Orrin,

I'm LDS all the way and I am right here with you on the no censorship deal. We should allow everyone to say whatever they want to say, however they want to say it.

Only when a man speaks his mind freely, can he be understood. Let us seek understanding.

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

[Dror]

The problem is most people have no clue what the "separation of church and state" originally meant...our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves as we speak.

The clause was written to keep the government from telling people what religion to belong to or to having a national religon. You have to remember the main reason people emigrated to this country in the 17th & 18th centuries...to avoid religous persecution. In Sweden alone you had to be a member of the national church. The separation of church and state was to keep the government out of running the church or having anything to do with it, or forcing people to be members of any given church. Not to stop people from praying or displaying their beliefs in a public place. If the liberals and the ACLU really believe that stopping my children from asking God to bless their food at lunch in school is a violation of the separation of church and state then they can send me all their evil money which states "in God we trust"

Brother Dorsey,

If the public schools were to remove all books pertaining to Wicca/witchcraft (which is currently being promoted by some as an actual religion) and not allow teachers to discuss that belief system, but keep copies of the Bible and encourage teachers to teach Christianity, that would violate the separation of church and state because it would essentially be telling schoolchildren that one religion is acceptable and another is not. That is why I say this lady is contradicting her own argument, because she is applying the notion of separation of church and state inconsistently, only to favor her own religion, which kind of defeats the purpose. In any case, the Harry Potter books are not about the Wiccan religion at all. They are fantasies depicting a popular, fictionalized version of magic and witchcraft, and as such do not violate the separation of church and state any more than would The Lord of the Rings.

Dror

[Dror]

To me, the Harry Potter books are about fun and telling a good story. They talk about the struggle between good and evil, loyalty to friends, and so on. They're harmless, they're fun, they teach good morals, so what's the problem? Are we going to forbid having schoolchildren read The Odyssey and The Iliad because they might encourage children to explore Greek religion and start worshipping the pagan gods (a practice that actually did take place, unlike the type of stuff you read about in the Potter books)? If our children can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality, they have bigger problems than what's on the shelves of their school library. In fact, if you ask me, that lady is part of the problem--by claiming that what Rowling describes is actual witchcraft, she is blurring the lines between fantasy and reality and clouding the children's minds.

Dror

[FrankJL]

since when was wicca not a real religion?

I can just tell you as an education major, that censoring books is a really rough subject. In both districts I've done student teaching so far, they both had a list of books not to be used in the class room. The one districts list was nearly 16 pages long, and included many historical works (history is my area I'm going to teach), that makes teaching history with any other good source book, beside the lousy textbooks, very hard.

Some ones that I could remember from that list off the top of my head:

Hitler -- Mien Kampf

Marx -- Communist Manifesto

DeTochville(sp) -- Democracy in America

Levitt -- Freakonomics

Well over half of Shakespeare's plays

Beowolf

and as far as harry potter....I think its senseless. I read part of one book, and wish I could get those two hours of my life back.

[Dr T]

That's too bad. The books are great and fun. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Dror]

I can just tell you as an education major, that censoring books is a really rough subject. In both districts I've done student teaching so far, they both had a list of books not to be used in the class room. The one districts list was nearly 16 pages long, and included many historical works (history is my area I'm going to teach), that makes teaching history with any other good source book, beside the lousy textbooks, very hard.

Some ones that I could remember from that list off the top of my head:

Hitler -- Mien Kampf

Marx -- Communist Manifesto

DeTochville(sp) -- Democracy in America

Levitt -- Freakonomics

Well over half of Shakespeare's plays

Beowolf

FrankJL,

With books like that on the list, it's a wonder anyone can get a real education!! Kinda scares me...

Dror

[a-train]

Alexis de Tocqueville's book banned?!?!?!?!?!?!

Are you serious?!?!?!

Ridiculous!

-a-train

[Dr T]

I have read a few of those but not all. I'm sure many people have not read any of those and have a great education Dror.

[FrankJL]

Are you serious?!?!?!

yes..

It was said to promote white Anglo-American supremacy...

I have read a few of those but not all. I'm sure many people have not read any of those and have a great education

I'm sure they have. Having real source material, and not some second hand account really helps to drive thorough a point. Also students hate textbooks, they are seen as a part of the over all education institute it self that they have a built in bias against. Brining in other sources into the class can greatly expand on what you are trying to teach. The textbooks themselves (especially in the area I teach) are just very biased, bland, and in many cases just flat out give the wrong information for the sake of injecting political correctness to events that happened hundreds of years ago. Also studies have shown that students show more intrest and retain more information from books they consider to be "non-standard school books".

Take for example Thanksgiving. Read some of William Bradford's journal, and tell me if his description of the Plymouth colony's first Thanksgiving matches with what you was taught in school. It doesn't because we can't teach kids that they were giving thanks to God, not the Indians...you can't mention God with reference to anything in the class room. It also fails to mention that the good harvest, and increased agricultural production came from when the colony finally abandoned its early system of community goods, which could be properly described as one of the earliest attempts at socialism. I bet you don't remember that from school either, your not supposed to talk bad about socialism either.

EDIT:

opps...stupid me...I forgot too... I shouldn't have said indians....now they are called the "original inhabitants of the American continent".

my bad..

EDIT #2:

That got me to thinking....perhaps next time I do my student teaching, I should refer to them as "the lamanites"....I wonder how that would go over??

PS...my spell checker wants to correct "lamanites" to "salamanders"

[Dr T]

"original inhabitants of the American continent".

I work with four native tribes. I go to NA conferences, by IHS (Indian Health Service) and BIA and I have never heard them called "original inhabitants of the American continent."

[FrankJL]

oh...forgot this too.... If you don't believe William Bradford, perhaps you will believe George Washington:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor -- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be -- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks -- for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation -- for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the tranquility [sic], union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed -- for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted -- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions -- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually -- to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed -- to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn [sic] kindness onto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord -- To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease [sic] of science among them and us -- and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York

the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

George Washington

I work with four native tribes. I go to NA conferences, by IHS (Indian Health Service) and BIA and I have never heard them called "original inhabitants of the American continent."

IDK...I've never heard it before I went to Penn State, I've heard several of my profs use that term.

[Dr T]

What do you think of the phrase "History is just a fable agreed upon"? (I think that was from Brown in the Da Vinci Code) Or, "History is written by the victors (those that win)."

[FrankJL]

"What is history but a fable agreed upon?"

is from Napoleon.

Though I do remember something to that effect in The Da Vinci Code as well.

"History is written by the victors"

well that obviously is true, for the most part. Though that statement does support the argument that only primary sources ,of all sides involved, should be read to gain a true historic context of the events in question. This does present some difficulty in finding out true histories of some really old nations, as they had a tendency to literly destroy the civilizations they beat in battle, consuming their records in the process.

The ancient Greeks where especially adept to doing this. Though the irony in that is the Romans returned the favor to them by destroying the Great Library of Alexandira, causing a great loss of great historical documents going back several centuries B.C.E.. At least that is the most commonly expressed belief for the destruction of the library, some sources claim it was destroyed by Theophilus Decree, as the very early Christians began to populate Egypt, or it could have been destroyed by Muslim invaders as late as the 600's C.E.

The sad part is, we Americans are the one of the worst at revisionist history.

[Dr T]

...primary sources ,of all sides involved, should be read to gain a true historic context of the events in question.

I agree, primary sources are vital.

[JcDean78]

It also fails to mention that the good harvest, and increased agricultural production came from when the colony finally abandoned its early system of community goods, which could be properly described as one of the earliest attempts at socialism. I bet you don't remember that from school either, your not supposed to talk bad about socialism either.

Oh my gosh! Nobody hardly knows about that, the libs have been fighting tooth and nail to make sure that is not known! Its just another example of how collectivism and socialism has failed at every single turn throughout history. Thank you for bringing that point up!

[LT04]

You never hear about problems with “Chronicles of Narnia.”

[Outshined]

Or The Wizard of Oz...

[Sugarbay]

I thought the banned book list only took books like the Bobsey Twins and Little House on the Prairie. Our local school banned them for racial slurs yet the kids can check out Steven King books. See thread about Common Sense.