The lobbying of extremely liberal left industries.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not sure why porn and casinos are called "liberal left" in this thread. "Amoral" or "Libertarian" maybe. There are plenty of "liberal-left" feminists who oppose pornography because it degrades women. There are business interests that may be liberal or conservative, who oppose casinos because they may compete with, or drive away, the clients they want.

As for porn, it hurts people because it is immoral, and disrespects God's creation on many levels. However, if you are asking for "legal" harms, or some kind of objective, secular list, the conversation will quickly be one of competing sociological and psychological perspectives.

[Lakumi]

I'm not sure why porn and casinos are called "liberal left" in this thread. "Amoral" or "Libertarian" maybe. There are plenty of "liberal-left" feminists who oppose pornography because it degrades women. There are business interests that may be liberal or conservative, who oppose casinos because they may compete with, or drive away, the clients they want.

As for porn, it hurts people because it is immoral, and disrespects God's creation on many levels. However, if you are asking for "legal" harms, or some kind of objective, secular list, the conversation will quickly be one of competing sociological and psychological perspectives.

i meant more of a general harm to one, a non religious view

[KountC]

i meant more of a general harm to one, a non religious view

I think its harmful from a non religious view. After so many years of looking at it, a man can become limp, or only aroused by extremely hardcore footage.

Also, having unrealistic expectations about sexual acts. I had my fair share of pornography when I was younger.(teenager/early 20s) With in the last year I had visited a couple of adult sites again, and looking at it now in my 30's the only thing I can do is shake my head.

Most of the "Actors" in the films act so bizarrely when they are engaged in the act it is ridiculous.

You almost have to feel sorry for the "actors"; its like they have some kind of mental problems to act like that in front of a camera, then let people watch them. What more is the comments, that people leave on tube sites. Those in its self are disturbing; to think that sexual behavior is looked at as a sport and not an act of love between a husband and wife. The majority of men who leave comments are a bunch of losers who can never win a real woman over.

I think if your an Alpha Male you don't need it. Not to mention the people who put their photos up on Craig's List looking for sex.

I believe hell exist and that is what Hell is; Hell is where you go and have to put adds up on Craig'slist with your photos looking for NSA connections for eternity.

[Lakumi]

The majority of men who leave comments are a bunch of losers who can never win a real woman over.

And that's why a lot of them are there... Not everyone is a winner

(I wouldn't call myself an alpha male-that phrase just sounds wrong, nor would I say I am desirable to the opposite sex, what with the social awkwardness, the dolls and my general lack of interest-which I often feel stems from the fact I am generally seen as undesirable, a vicious cycle)

I do agree with the whole desensitzation of the act that pornography has on people, but there are losers in this world and the demand is there, and always will be there.

[KountC]

And that's why a lot of them are there... Not everyone is a winner

(I wouldn't call myself an alpha male-that phrase just sounds wrong, nor would I say I am desirable to the opposite sex, what with the social awkwardness, the dolls and my general lack of interest-which I often feel stems from the fact I am generally seen as undesirable, a vicious cycle)

I do agree with the whole desensitzation of the act that pornography has on people, but there are losers in this world and the demand is there, and always will be there.

Hey man, don't talk about yourself like that. So what if you have awkward hobbies.

Own the look dude, its all about balance. You should check out some Gregg Plitt,

Being an Alpha Male doesn't mean you have to run around like Hulk Hogan

Alpha males come in many shapes and sizes.

Look at Weird Al Yankovic and his hot wife, You think he isn't awkward?

There is also Nick Vucic the man with no arms and legs. Did you see that super babe he married ? man, I would kill to be that guy now, and he doesn't have arms and legs.

Its all about how you carry yourself. You should check out some Gregg Plitt, talks on you tube, that guy is a God amongst men. You just need to be mentored correctly.

[Lakumi]

Hey man, don't talk about yourself like that. So what if you have awkward hobbies.

Own the look dude, its all about balance. You should check out some Gregg Plitt,

Being an Alpha Male doesn't mean you have to run around like Hulk Hogan

Alpha males come in many shapes and sizes.

Look at Weird Al Yankovic and his hot wife, You think he isn't awkward?

There is also Nick Vucic the man with no arms and legs. Did you see that super babe he married ? man, I would kill to be that guy now, and he doesn't have arms and legs.

Its all about how you carry yourself. You should check out some Gregg Plitt, talks on you tube, that guy is a God amongst men. You just need to be mentored correctly.

yeah I know I don't have to be Kenshiro but... I have some...akwardness, and the like (aspergers is a pain)

I mean awkward can be fine, when you can read people, do social things properly and generally understand people.

I mean sure, I'd like to comprehend people and perhaps meet like minded sorts but when you're a mad-shut in, you generally don't meet many like you...

My meger foray into relationships hasn't given me anything positive to go with, no real desire to continue.

Solitude is lonely but easy.

[mirkwood]

Pornography affects the brain receptors in the same way cocaine does. In other words, it is mind altering. Anything that alters the normal physiological responses of the brain is not good. A person can have no problem with _______, but if it still affects them, it is still a problem. There is nothing good about pornography, it is all darkness.

[Kawazu]

Pornography affects the brain receptors in the same way cocaine does. In other words, it is mind altering. Anything that alters the normal physiological responses of the brain is not good. A person can have no problem with _______, but if it still affects them, it is still a problem. There is nothing good about pornography, it is all darkness.

Why does pornography affect the brain receptors in a different manner than intercourse?

[Lakumi]

Why does pornography affect the brain receptors in a different manner than intercourse?

and, if it doesn't why is it bad if you aren't married, I mean your body doesn't understand that you didn't sign a piece of paper, does it make one less married if they only went down the legal road and got married in a courthouse, shunning any and all religious aspects?

(obviously I understand the religious aspect to it, one should be with whom they are married, but this is more about the science and not the belief)

[Blackmarch]

I wanted to mention that I had noticed that many of the organizations or people whom are lobbying for big change in the USA or the world whom find fault with places like

Wall Street or Wal-Mart never, mention the "Vice Industries"

I had read online that the #1 site online for pornography is worth 56 million dollars

But why is it considered ok for "vice" industries such as Casinos, Alcohol or Pornography to make large amounts of profit selling products who's blue prints are strictly designed to degrade family life not held at the same pedestal of socialist criticism ss McDonalds.

The way I understand it is: Wal-Mart , McDonalds, & Wall Street are Evil,

Pornography industry: Gambling, and in the future , the legalization of marijuana industries. are Not Evil

Has anyone else noticed this?

The average pot dealer or liquor store owner operating in a community has done more to damage the quality of life, for an American citizen to interfere with opportunity then what McDonald's minimum wage jobs will ever do.

Something is wrong with the motivation in a society as a whole. When the libraries close at 5pm, and the bars close at 2am

Probably won't get better before it gets worse either.

[Blackmarch]

Why does pornography affect the brain receptors in a different manner than intercourse?

I'd say that it affects the brain in similar manners chemically; it's a very powerful reinforcing agent. the problem with pornography is that it advertises destructive behavior, and when individuals get that high it reinforces those sort of behaviors.

[jerome1232]

Why does pornography affect the brain receptors in a different manner than intercourse?

I find that to be sort of like asking why the endorphin's released from exercising and Morphine are different from each other.

[Kawazu]

I find that to be sort of like asking why the endorphin's released from exercising and Morphine are different from each other.

Pornography releases more endorphins than intercourse? Or am I misunderstanding your meaning? Or are you using an analogy to reiterate what Blackmarch said?

Edited February 11, 2014 by Kawazu

[Dravin]

I find that to be sort of like asking why the endorphin's released from exercising and Morphine are different from each other.

Pornography use introduces non-endogenous opiods into the body?

[jerome1232]

No, no no. I'm not even sure how to articulate what I meant.

Mastubation/Pornography - addictive cheap high, Cheap in terms of commitment, selfish, you don't need to put a lot of effort into it.

Morphine - addictive cheap high

Intercourse with Wife - Not selfish, requires maintaining relationship, a deeper more meaningful "high"

Exercise - Requires commitment, expands energy and requires dicipline to earn your deeper more meaningful "high"

I was using another example we could all agree on to show why masturbation is different than intercourse.

I think we'd all agree the high you get from a good work out and the high you get from a substance are very different, and one affects you positively while the other affects you negatively and I felt that is directly relevant to the masturbation vs intercourse question posed.

[Lakumi]

No, no no. I'm not even sure how to articulate what I meant.

Mastubation/Pornography - addictive cheap high, Cheap in terms of commitment, selfish, you don't need to put a lot of effort into it.

Morphine - addictive cheap high

Intercourse with Wife - Not selfish, requires maintaining relationship, a deeper more meaningful "high"

Exercise - Requires commitment, expands energy and requires dicipline to earn your deeper more meaningful "high"

I was using another example we could all agree on to show why masturbation is different than intercourse.

I think we'd all agree the high you get from a good work out and the high you get from a substance are very different, and one affects you positively while the other affects you negatively and I felt that is directly relevant to the masturbation vs intercourse question posed.

So is intercourse with someone your not married to a cheap high? Even if you've been together for a long time, perhaps you don't believe in marriage (not religious)

one could agree about a one night stand being selfish-no commitment, some become addicted to it

[jerome1232]

So is intercourse with someone your not married to a cheap high? Even if you've been together for a long time, perhaps you don't believe in marriage (not religious)

I would say it's clearly not a cheap high.

one could agree about a one night stand being selfish-no commitment, some become addicted to it

I agree. It's even more harmful in that it harms far more than just yourself.

[Lakumi]

I would say it's clearly not a cheap high.

I agree. It's even more harmful in that it harms far more than just yourself.

I always described it as feeling empty.

I didn't love that girl and she didn't love me...felt pointless I guess, could be the right word

[Just_A_Guy]

So is intercourse with someone your not married to a cheap high?

Well, it's sure cheaper than marriage.

Even if you've been together for a long time, perhaps you don't believe in marriage (not religious)

Now that the state has co-opted marriage, I don't think people get to make that argument anymore. If marriage is primarily a legal contract rather than a religious rite, then reluctance to marry = reluctance to be legally bound, which = reluctance to commit in any practically meaningful way. Religious belief, or lack thereof, is utterly irrelevant.

[Lakumi]

Well, it's sure cheaper than marriage.

Now that the state has co-opted marriage, I don't think people get to make that argument anymore. If marriage is primarily a legal contract rather than a religious rite, then reluctance to marry = reluctance to be legally bound, which = reluctance to commit in any practically meaningful way.

or you can't afford it, I donno how expensive getting married is but something tells me it isn't cheap

[Just_A_Guy]

Not really. My wedding itself cost $50--all of which was for the license.

Now, the pomp and ceremony we typically associate with marriage can be an issue. But it's also unnecessary.

[jerome1232]

Not really. My wedding itself cost $50--all of which was for the license.

Now, the pomp and ceremony we typically associate with marriage can be an issue. But it's also unnecessary.

And then there's the tax breaks and legal benefits.

[Lakumi]

Not really. My wedding itself cost $50--all of which was for the license.

Now, the pomp and ceremony we typically associate with marriage can be an issue. But it's also unnecessary.

huh... well I stand corrected

yeah only pomp and ceremony I want is for my funeral, sad I won't get to see it

[Kawazu]

Pornography use introduces non-endogenous opiods into the body?

Although Jerome offered clarification–since I have seen comparisons between pornography and cocaine in terms of negative effects on the anatomy of the brain–I was curious enough to see if I could find a scientific source indicating that use of pornography causes actual brain damage. Doing a simple search through some medical journals, I found:

Pornography addiction: A neuroscience perspective (Donald L. Hilton, Jr and Clark Watts, Surg Neurol Int. 2011; 2: 19.)

In 2002, a study on cocaine addiction demonstrated measurable volume loss in several areas of the brain, including the frontal lobes.[9] The study technique was an MRI-based protocol, voxel-based morphometry (VBM), where 1 mm cubes of brain are quantified and compared. Another VBM study was published in 2004 on methamphetamine, with very similar findings.[27] While interesting, these findings may not be surprising to either the scientist or the layperson, as these are “real drugs” used illicitly. Nevertheless, it was noteworthy that addiction could produce measurable, anatomical change in the brain.

Even more instructive are similar findings seen with the abuse of a normal biological behavior, eating, leading to addiction and obesity. In 2006, a VBM study was published looking specifically at obesity, and the results were very similar to the cocaine and methamphetamine studies.[20] The obesity study demonstrated multiple areas of volume loss, particularly in the frontal lobes, areas associated with judgment and control. This study is significant in demonstrating visible damage in a natural endogenous addiction, as opposed to an exogenous drug addiction. Furthermore, it is easy to accept intuitively because the effects of overeating can be seen in the obese person.

Eating, of course, is essential to individual survival, necessary for survival of the species. Another activity necessary for survival of the species is sex, an observation which leads to a series of logical questions derived from the work on obesity. Would the findings seen in eating addiction be seen in excessive sexual behavior? Can sex be addictive in the neurological sense? If so, are there associated with the addiction anatomical changes in the brain seen with other addictions?

Hilton and Watts assert that, "Just as exogenously administered drugs cause downgrading of dopamine receptors in the nucleus accumbens in addiction, evidence supports endogenously functioning neurotransmitters causing similar pathology."

Neuroscience research fails to support claims that excessive pornography consumption causes brain damage by Rory C. Reid, Bruce N. Carpenter, and Timothy W. Fong offers counterarguments such as:

We are open to the notion that frontal impairment might make people vulnerable to a variety of over-indulgences, which can subsequently lead to substance dependence, maladaptive coping patterns, poor judgment, impulsivity or emotional disturbance, which people may seek to escape by turning to problematic behaviors, such as the case with many pathological gamblers. However, given the lack of studies designed to infer causality, we find it difficult to readily assume the converse — that these diverse dysfunctional behaviors lead to common frontal dysregulation or any cortical atrophy worthy of mention. Admittedly, a causal mechanism strikes us as more likely when substances are involved (e.g., cocaine, high blood sugar, or high lipid levels damaging brain cells), but such causation is speculative for non-substance activities such as pornography use despite that likelihood that the sexual response cycle activated by pornography consumption also activates endogenous neurochemical reactions in the brain. If we consider that most people eat several times a day, are Hilton and Watson suggesting that the somewhat elevated activity of “eating behavior” is sufficiently different in obese persons to cause brain pathology? Similarly, would they argue that a “runner's high” from extensive exercise leads to brain damage? The parameters of what constitutes pattern, excess, cognitive reward, and the like need to be more clearly explicated and then studied within pornography users.1

Reid, Carpenter and Fong conclude that:

Despite our criticism of their work, we are encouraged that Hilton and Watts have made an attempt to bring increased awareness to patients exhibiting problems with excessive pornography consumption. We agree, and have published findings demonstrating, that such patterns of behavior have been associated with numerous negative consequences including attachment ruptures in romantic relationships, loss of employment, and psychological distress. Yet much remains to be learned about patients seeking help for hypersexual behavior and excessive pornography problems. Neuroscience has the potential to offer meaningful contributions to our understanding of this phenomenon but such research is lacking at this time. The tone and content of the Hilton and Watts article misleads readers to believe there is strong and convincing evidence based on neuroscientific research that excessive pornography problems constitute an addictive disorder causing brain abnormalities and cortical atrophy paralleling those found in substance abuse. Such assertions are speculative and unsupported by the studies cited by Hilton and Watts.

From my brief reading, it appears that more research needs be done to figure out the extent to which pornography and drug abuse affect the brain in similar ways.

[Quin]

No, no no. I'm not even sure how to articulate what I meant.

Mastubation/Pornography - addictive cheap high, Cheap in terms of commitment, selfish, you don't need to put a lot of effort into it.

Morphine - addictive cheap high

Intercourse with Wife - Not selfish, requires maintaining relationship, a deeper more meaningful "high"

Exercise - Requires commitment, expands energy and requires dicipline to earn your deeper more meaningful "high"

I was using another example we could all agree on to show why masturbation is different than intercourse.

I think we'd all agree the high you get from a good work out and the high you get from a substance are very different, and one affects you positively while the other affects you negatively and I felt that is directly relevant to the masturbation vs intercourse question posed.

Nope.

The underlying pattern here, is addiction, not the drug of choice.

Nor how acceptable the drug of choice is to society.

Most people can masturbate or have sex ... And not be sex addicts.

Most people can exercise ... Without becoming adrenaline junkies.

Most people can drink & take medications responsibly... Without becoming addicts and alcoholics.

A smallish subset of the population can & will become addicted.

A smallish subset of the population will NOT become addicted, but be self medicating/self regulating a neurological condition (2 subtypes of ADHD & Adrenaline go hand in hand, for example), &/or be under a doctors care following either a lifestyle that promotes more normalized neurochem, or takin medication which more normalizes neurochem.

The high that athletes get, can be as physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and socially damaging as the high any other kind of addict gets.

It can also be a healthy motivator.

Just as medications (aka drugs with good quality control) can be healthy.

It is not the substance itself (pick your neurotransmitter), it's the motivation behind it.

Not everyone is an addict.

_______

While I get that you are trying to make a substantive difference between activities you approve of, and activities you don't (be it sports or sex within the confines of marriage)... It's just not that simple. Not with neurology. And not with a whole person, who is more than just physiology, and more than just ideology.

To jump out of addiction for a moment, here's another problem with laying ideological reasoning (like sports or marriage are healthy, while drugs and sex outside of marriage are not) across the board:

Take sex with a stranger versus sex with one's spouse.

Given your paradigm, being raped by your spouse is healthy.

Yikes. Right? No bueno.

But regardless of how well it meets both people's physical, spiritual, and emotional needs... Sex with someone who was once a stranger is not.

Are these opposite ends of the spectrum?

Absolutely.

Just because they most clearly demonstrate the flaw in the reasoning.

In reality, there's a whole lotta grey areas.

Including, but not limited to... Sexual addiction within a marriage, sexual anorexia within a marriage, sexual abuse within a marriage, regrettable sex within a marriage (I don't know anyone who has been married for an extended period of time who has not had bad sex from time to time in their marriage.), meaningful sex within a marriage... Et cetera. And I haven't even gotten to sex outside of marriage. I picked 2 examples out of dozens if not hundreds.

The grey areas, the variation, is hugely substantial.

Marriage does not define what makes sex healthy.

The people themselves, do.

And people are darn complex.

Physically. Emotionally. Mentally. Spiritually.

Q