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[minishawnee]

The 2 missionaries came as well as an elder gentleman. Now, here I sat, with 3 strange men in my home and just me. Not a good feeling, but I was not scared of them. I told them I was a widow (which I had already told the missionaries on the phone), and the elder man said "we can handle that"...not sure what his statement meant, but I felt sort of odd. The 2 missionaries then proceeded to teach me the gospel and did a great job. I liked them very much. They answered all my questions and seemed to want me to ask questions.

After a while, the elder gentlemen asked me if I would like to be blessed by the priesthood. I asked him what I had to do and he said just sit there. Then he explained they would all 3 put their hands on my head. I then had to say no, I cannot allow that. I've known you for 1 hour and I don't allow people to just touch me if I don't know them. So, I declined the blessing, which they were ok with. They asked to return and I said maybe to give me time to digest their teachings. I wish the elder man had just stayed away. I felt uncomfortable with him here. I do feel better now and my fears have subsided.

[Guest]

The 2 missionaries came as well as an elder gentleman. Now, here I sat, with 3 strange men in my home and just me. Not a good feeling, but I was not scared of them. I told them I was a widow (which I had already told the missionaries on the phone), and the elder man said "we can handle that"...not sure what his statement meant, but I felt sort of odd. The 2 missionaries then proceeded to teach me the gospel and did a great job. I liked them very much. They answered all my questions and seemed to want me to ask questions.

After a while, the elder gentlemen asked me if I would like to be blessed by the priesthood. I asked him what I had to do and he said just sit there. Then he explained they would all 3 put their hands on my head. I then had to say no, I cannot allow that. I've known you for 1 hour and I don't allow people to just touch me if I don't know them. So, I declined the blessing, which they were ok with. They asked to return and I said maybe to give me time to digest their teachings. I wish the elder man had just stayed away. I felt uncomfortable with him here. I do feel better now and my fears have subsided.

You're ok. The missionaries probably thought another person from the ward would be great to introduce you to it. Missionaries come and go (they get moved around or they go back home) so it is better if you find somebody from the ward that you can get comfortable with - maybe a woman this time - so that when the missionaries leave and get replaced by new missionaries, you won't feel abandoned.

Maybe you can ask the missionaries to bring a woman from the ward next time. Or you can attend a service at church and get to know some of the ward members.

[estradling75]

The 2 missionaries came as well as an elder gentleman. Now, here I sat, with 3 strange men in my home and just me. Not a good feeling, but I was not scared of them. I told them I was a widow (which I had already told the missionaries on the phone), and the elder man said "we can handle that"...not sure what his statement meant, but I felt sort of odd. The 2 missionaries then proceeded to teach me the gospel and did a great job. I liked them very much. They answered all my questions and seemed to want me to ask questions.

After a while, the elder gentlemen asked me if I would like to be blessed by the priesthood. I asked him what I had to do and he said just sit there. Then he explained they would all 3 put their hands on my head. I then had to say no, I cannot allow that. I've known you for 1 hour and I don't allow people to just touch me if I don't know them. So, I declined the blessing, which they were ok with. They asked to return and I said maybe to give me time to digest their teachings. I wish the elder man had just stayed away. I felt uncomfortable with him here. I do feel better now and my fears have subsided.

The missionaries (the two young men) are not allowed to be alone with a sister. This is a Church/mission policy that more a 'better safe then sorry' policy. (at the very least designed to protect them if any false accusations are attempted)

You clearly have fears, and the missionaries clearly have rules. So you and they need to get talking to find a way that address everyone concerns so that you can continue.

And congratulations on your progress.

[Guest]

You could also ask to be taught by sister missionaries if that would help you feel more comfortable.

[Leah]

Thank you for your responses. I feel odd about buying salvation...seems if you pay you get to attend the temple, else your just a member. I find that sad, as I would think the temple would be a place for all Mormons to come together and worship Christ. I'm beginning to rethink this missionary visit...

I don't understand why you equate paying tithing with "buying salvation". It is nothing of the sort. It is one of the covenants/promises you make when you join the Church. If it was a matter of buying salvation, wouldn't you just send some money and not have to do anything else or live a certain way? Salvation can't be bought.

Temple attendance requires worthiness and further covenants. It is obtainable by all who desire to do so.

The temple is place where certain ordinances are performed. If you continue in your studies you will learn more about the purpose of the temple and the importance of being worthy to enter.

I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination....it is always a struggle to make endes meet...but I am always a bit perplexed by the objections that surround tithing or in other ways making financial contributions to the church. Where else is the money to come from to pay for meeting houses, temples...and all of the various and sundry things it takes to run the church?

[Leah]

It's not that I am against paying my fair share to the Church, its that I have to wait a full year before I can enter a Temple and that is only if I get a Temple Recommend. What if I'm found not worthy? Can it take many years to get a Temple Recommend? Can I get my money back and say ok, I tried, no hard feelings? Do you sign a paper with a Bishop when you first join? Can you join as a member not through baptism? I wasn't aware that one could do that.

and Devin, I would never disrupt a church. Negativity not a good way to teach.

A year to enter the temple is nothing. It's hardly a blink of the eye in the realm of eternity.

Those who grow up in the church spend years preparing to enter. A year's preparation is really a minimal amount of time.

Anyone has the potential to be worthy to enter the temple. You just have to do the work.

[Vort]

It's not that I am against paying my fair share to the Church, its that I have to wait a full year before I can enter a Temple and that is only if I get a Temple Recommend. What if I'm found not worthy? Can it take many years to get a Temple Recommend? Can I get my money back and say ok, I tried, no hard feelings? Do you sign a paper with a Bishop when you first join? Can you join as a member not through baptism? I wasn't aware that one could do that.(

To answer your questions as best I can:

• If you are not found worthy, the bishop will continue working with you until you are worthy and ready. No one will announce your status to the congregation or anything. That's between you, the bishop, and God.
  
• Yes, it can take years to get a temple recommend. This might happen when there are specific and serious sins to be overcome, or for addictions (e.g. tobacco) or unresolved legal issues (e.g. child support not being paid). Typically, it's about a year, sometimes a bit longer.
  
• No, you cannot get your tithing donations back. The tithing is not "yours". It is God's. There is no mechanism for "refunding" tithing donations.
  
• No, you don't sign any papers with the bishop. You make covenants with God. This should be explained to you pretty thoroughly by the missionaries before you are baptized.
  
• One joins the Church through baptism and confirmation. There is no other way to join the Church.*

*When baptized members have little children too young to be baptized (younger than eight years old), the names of those children are listed on the Church records, and they are treated as members. The term for them is "children of record". If they reach the age of nine without being baptized, I believe their names are removed from the records, though of course they are still welcomed at Church and included in activities and such.

Hope that helps. (I haven't read through the whole thread yet -- shame on me -- so I apologize if this is redundant.)

[Guest]

[*]No, you cannot get your tithing donations back. The tithing is not "yours". It is God's. There is no mechanism for "refunding" tithing donations.

In addition, if for some reason, you fail to give tithes for a period of time and then you start fulfilling your covenants and give tithes again, you don't have to "back pay" your missed tithes. You repent for the missed tithes and start fresh.

[Vort]

In addition, if for some reason, you fail to give tithes for a period of time and then you start fulfilling your covenants and give tithes again, you don't have to "back pay" your missed tithes. You repent for the missed tithes and start fresh.

Yes, you certainly do not have to. But you can if you want.

Several years ago, when I found out (at tithing settlement) we had inadvertently* not paid our tithing for A YEAR, my good bishop told me not to worry about it and just start paying. He didn't take away my temple recommend or anything. But my wife and I were determined to pay it, not because the bishop required it -- he didn't, quite the opposite -- but because we wanted to do so. So we "doubled up" for the next year. As far as I know, we didn't "buy" any "extra" blessings, and I do not believe God loves us any better for it. But *I* feel better knowing I tried to pay an honest tithing.

Paying tithing is a privilege. I think it's healthy and useful to view it in that manner.

*How can one inadvertently not pay tithing for an entire year? A worthwhile question. Maybe some day I will answer it. I probably have already, somewhere. But it wasn't pretty. It was a combination of procrastination and gross oversight, and something that Sister Vort and I have put personal policies into place to avoid its recurrence.

[skippy740]

The Church doesn't need our money.

We need the Law of the Tithe and sacrifice to work in our lives. This is the focus of our tithing settlements (annual review with the Bishop) and the temple recommend.

Big difference.

[Quin]

The 2 missionaries came as well as an elder gentleman. Now, here I sat, with 3 strange men in my home and just me. Not a good feeling, but I was not scared of them. I told them I was a widow (which I had already told the missionaries on the phone), and the elder man said "we can handle that"...not sure what his statement meant, but I felt sort of odd. The 2 missionaries then proceeded to teach me the gospel and did a great job. I liked them very much. They answered all my questions and seemed to want me to ask questions.

After a while, the elder gentlemen asked me if I would like to be blessed by the priesthood. I asked him what I had to do and he said just sit there. Then he explained they would all 3 put their hands on my head. I then had to say no, I cannot allow that. I've known you for 1 hour and I don't allow people to just touch me if I don't know them. So, I declined the blessing, which they were ok with. They asked to return and I said maybe to give me time to digest their teachings. I wish the elder man had just stayed away. I felt uncomfortable with him here. I do feel better now and my fears have subsided.

The "we can handle that" was about the rules the missionaries have to follow.

It's been mentioned, but they're very black and white rules, so it bears repeating... Mostly because we kind of forget about it:

Missionaries always come in pairs.

They're never (for 2 years) allowed to be out of hearing distance of their companion

They strive to never be out of sight (hearing distance = bathroom)

Sister missionaries are not allowed to be alone (just the two of them) with a man.

Elder/male missionaries are not allowed to be alone (just the 2 of them) with a woman.

This is protection for both themselves (who are generally very young, but it applies to older missionaries as well), and for the people they visit.

If they have to meet with a single man/woman... They HAVE to bring along a 3rd (at a minimum).

This is often a member from the church/ward.

Or another pair of missionaries.

Or their supervisor.

One way to get around this rule that happens sometimes when an area is short or very busy, or when an investigator doesn't want to be hosting 3+ people in their home, is to meet at the church on Sunday. Investigators are often taught lessons in the lobby area or one of the Sunday school rooms. There's still 3+ people involved at a minimum... But it can be less overwhelming to be in a Sunday crowd for those who feel outnumbered 3:1, and less overwhelming for those who feel invaded by having so many in their homes.

Course, it may just be that the 3rd man rubbed your fur the wrong way (personality conflicts happen). If that's the case... Just like with the above... Ask! :)

Either to meet at the church, or if there is a different 3rd they could bring.

(There is ONE man at my ward who sets my teeth on edge. Just one. Can't stand him. Out of maybe 150. So that's the guy who got assigned as my home teacher Figures. Anyhow, since I can't stand him, I talked to the bishop, and he'll be replaced soon in a way that doesn't hurt his feelings (he's a good guy, but our personalities are oil and water)... And in the meantime, we meet at the church. If I actually hated him, he'd have been replaced immediately. This way is the way I chose when I went and talked and explained, as I have no desire to hurt him & it allows him to save face, even if he knows I don't like him.

The church is really flexible about most things / can find a solution that works for everyone.

As someone else said, they have rules to follow, and you have a valid concern.

There are a couple of options available so that the rules can be followed and your concerns taken care of.

All my best,

Q

[gfchase]

Thank you for your responses. I feel odd about buying salvation...seems if you pay you get to attend the temple, else your just a member. I find that sad, as I would think the temple would be a place for all Mormons to come together and worship Christ. I'm beginning to rethink this missionary visit...

You are not buying salvation. Tithing is a commandment that is found in the pages of the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. It does take faith to begin to pay and keep paying tithe. Just try to think of it as everything we have belongs to the Lord and that He doesn't need our money, but we pay to show forth faith and that if we do He will bless us.

Here is just one Bible reference:

Malachi 3:8-10, 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Jerry

[minishawnee]

Quin: I told the older man that I had been baptized in the Lutheran church as a child and he told me I was not baptized. Then he told me he has the same power as God, but that he could not move a mountain due to faith. I'm not sure what that was about. I could feel the male dominance all around me, making me feel weak. I'm not a weak person, in fact probably the opposite. I still feel they should have sent a woman out here with the missionaries or 2 women. Now, I don't want them to come back here, and I am very scared to step into their church, that's the reason why I called them to come here. I have read and prayed for me to feel something, but I don't feel any different. Nothing. I understand rules but I think sending 3 men to my home with me telling them I was a widow up front was wrong. Not a good first impression of the Church to me.

[estradling75]

Quin: I told the older man that I had been baptized in the Lutheran church as a child and he told me I was not baptized. Then he told me he has the same power as God, but that he could not move a mountain due to faith. I'm not sure what that was about. I could feel the male dominance all around me, making me feel weak. I'm not a weak person, in fact probably the opposite. I still feel they should have sent a woman out here with the missionaries or 2 women. Now, I don't want them to come back here, and I am very scared to step into their church, that's the reason why I called them to come here. I have read and prayed for me to feel something, but I don't feel any different. Nothing. I understand rules but I think sending 3 men to my home with me telling them I was a widow up front was wrong. Not a good first impression of the Church to me.

Missionaries are assigned areas. Therefore the default missionaries for your area showed up. They are not mind readers. They will not know or assume that you are uncomfortable with men until you tell them. Please do so.

[pam]

At this point I'm not sure what you want us to tell you.

If you feel uncomfortable with the men, ask for sister missionaries.

[Guest]

Please consider that it is the duty of the high priests in our church to watch over and care for widows, so that could have a part in the answer.

I said it before and pam has also said it: sister missionaries would be the easiest solution to your unease, if you wish to continue taking discussions. You won't offend the missionaries teaching you if you ask for sisters to come.

[minishawnee]

The missionaries called me back today wanting to return and I agreed only if they don't bring that guy with them. He said they would not and he agreed the guy spoke out of line. Wonder who will come with them? He mentioned a couple maybe. I just don't feel I should have to ask who they send to my home. They know who to send.

[Leah]

The missionaries called me back today wanting to return and I agreed only if they don't bring that guy with them. He said they would not and he agreed the guy spoke out of line. Wonder who will come with them? He mentioned a couple maybe. I just don't feel I should have to ask who they send to my home. They know who to send.

There is nothing in what you have posted that in any way shows anyone being out of line. You were offered a priesthood blessing. A BLESSING.

I am curious as to why you are so antagonistic.

[Quin]

There is nothing in what you have posted that in any way shows anyone being out of line. You were offered a priesthood blessing. A BLESSING.

I am curious as to why you are so antagonistic.

It was from here:

Quin: I told the older man that I had been baptized in the Lutheran church as a child and he told me I was not baptized. Then he told me he has the same power as God, but that he could not move a mountain due to faith. I'm not sure what that was about. I could feel the male dominance all around me, making me feel weak. I'm not a weak person, in fact probably the opposite. I still feel they should have sent a woman out here with the missionaries or 2 women. Now, I don't want them to come back here, and I am very scared to step into their church, that's the reason why I called them to come here. I have read and prayed for me to feel something, but I don't feel any different. Nothing. I understand rules but I think sending 3 men to my home with me telling them I was a widow up front was wrong. Not a good first impression of the Church to me.

If a veritable stranger walks up to you and tells you he has the power of God... Most people are going to whistle quietly and back away.

The power of the priesthood (any priesthood) can in theory be broken down that way... But it's... Self aggrandizing at the very least.

Similarly, while we require a separate baptism, that doesn't mean she wasn't baptized.

In the Lutheran Church as a child.

Telling here it doesn't count would be rude at best,

but arguing that she's never been baptized at all is insulting, dismissive. and aggressive.

It would be like a catholic walking up to you and saying YOU were never baptized.

When, really, you have been.

Just not into the Catholic faith.

So the Catholic Church wouldn't recognize it.

Doesn't mean that you weren't baptized.

It just sets the table for argument.

Some people work well, that way: Rabbi M used to start arguments to get us to think.

But for many, most if the person is a stranger, it's extremely off putting.

I came here to learn, why are you picking a fight?

And the person's mind shuts down and quits listening.

Not a great introduction to the Church.

Since that's generally not how we operate.

We want people to bring the good stuff with them,

Not convince them there isn't good stuff, or that they're idiots.

______________________________________

Mishwanee.... Like your missionaries, I'm sorry. Sounds like this guy had a major case of poisoning by testosterone coupled with social ineptitude. Some guys have that. (I work with one, bless his heart).

Principles before Personalities is one of those concepts that only works well once one understands the principles. When you're just trying to learn about them, the wrong personality can really put salt in the cookies instead of sugar. Blech. Yuck. What is wrong, here? Kind of response. But I hope that, in this case, you get the chance to try he cookies made the way they're supposed to be.

& I hope you have a better meeting upcoming.

Q

Edited February 21, 2014 by Quin

[pam]

Mishwanee.... Like your missionaries, I'm sorry. Sounds like this guy had a major case of poisoning by testosterone coupled with social ineptitude. Some guys have that. (I work with one, bless his heart).

I'm more inclined to give the missionaries and the gentleman that came with them the benefit of the doubt. We're only hearing one side of the story here and one that is very biased. It may not have even been exactly what he said.

[Leah]

I'm more inclined to give the missionaries and the gentleman that came with them the benefit of the doubt. We're only hearing one side of the story here and one that is very biased. It may not have even been exactly what he said.

This. Exactly.

Especially when the perception is coming from someone who has displayed a negative attitude to start with. That, along with a lack of knowledge and some plain misunderstanding, can seriously color the version we are getting.

It is standard practice for the missionaries to bring along a male third party when teaching a single sister. There seems to be affront taken to that fact alone. Offering to give a blessing - which involves the innocent laying on of hands on one's head - is not generally thought of as boundary-crossing. It certainly isn't anything inappropriate or out of line.

As far as the alleged statements that this brother made....I am inclined to think that that was a misunderstanding. If you are not knowledgeable about the church, some things may sound like something they are not. I am not going to accuse one of the brethren of negative attributes or incorret behavior when I haven't witnessed the behavior myself.

[Vort]

The power of the priesthood (any priesthood) can in theory be broken down that way... But it's... Self aggrandizing at the very least.

No, it is not. It is a simple recognition of the nature of the Priesthood. Quite the opposite of being self-aggrandizing, the brother freely admitted he lacked the faith to perform the miracles that Priesthood power might otherwise perform.

Arguably, the most amazing thing about the Restoration is that God has again shared his power with us. This brother may well have blundered awkwardly into that statement, but it does not make the statement itself either untrue or self-aggrandizing.

Similarly, while we require a separate baptism, that doesn't mean she wasn't baptized.

This is a squabble about word choice. In the literal sense, she was "baptized", since "baptism" means "dipping under the water". But no faithful and knowledgeable Latter-day Saint would consider any "dipping under water" to be a "baptism" in the Priesthood sense. She was not baptized by anyone with divine authority, so it's entirely correct to say she "wasn't baptized". Again, the guy may have been a bull in a china shop in portraying the fact -- but it was a FACT, not a mere dismissive insult.

It would be like a catholic walking up to you and saying YOU were never baptized.

When, really, you have been.

Not in the Catholic belief system. If I were undergoing catechesis, I would fully expect my teachers to tell me I had not "really" been baptized yet. If they said anything else, I would wonder whether they even believed their own doctrine.

Mishwanee.... Like your missionaries, I'm sorry. Sounds like this guy had a major case of poisoning by testosterone coupled with social ineptitude. Some guys have that. (I work with one, bless his heart).

What a profoundly sexist statement. Bless your heart.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Vort

[minishawnee]

I am curious as to why you are so antagonistic.

I never said I was against the Mormon Religion, in fact I think I'm being as open as I can possibly be. I was against a stranger touching me , even if its on the top of my head. They seemed to understand my thoughts completely, so I don't understand why you cant understand my reasoning. I do not lie, nor do I have any reason to lie.

Especially when the perception is coming from someone who has displayed a negative attitude to start with

I don't understand your judging me here. I was not being negative, only asking questions about tithing....is that not allowed? I am/was only trying to learn about the Mormon religion, nothing more and nothing less.

I stepped way out of my comfort zone to even allow them into my home. I'm beginning to think I need to call the missionaries back and tell them to forget it. I am being judged and having to defend myself here

We're only hearing one side of the story here and one that is very biased

, I can only imagine what would happen if I were to attend the Church and this same thing happened. I wont put myself in that situation.....God Bless you All

[Leah]

I never said I was against the Mormon Religion, in fact I think I'm being as open as I can possibly be. I was against a stranger touching me , even if its on the top of my head. They seemed to understand my thoughts completely, so I don't understand why you cant understand my reasoning. I do not lie, nor do I have any reason to lie.

I don't understand your judging me here. I was not being negative, only asking questions about tithing....is that not allowed? I am/was only trying to learn about the Mormon religion, nothing more and nothing less.

I stepped way out of my comfort zone to even allow them into my home. I'm beginning to think I need to call the missionaries back and tell them to forget it. I am being judged and having to defend myself here , I can only imagine what would happen if I were to attend the Church and this same thing happened. I wont put myself in that situation.....God Bless you All

No one said anything about lying, so that protestation is a puzzlement.

We are merely answering you questions and giving you feedback. If you think that is judgment, that is based on YOUR perception. A negative slant, I might point out, so that is how you are coming across.

What "same thing" are you concerned about happening at the church? Nothing untoware or inappropriate has happened in your contact with the church, so I don't understand what it is that you fear. You are being offered fellowship and learning.

If it is not comfortable to you to have them in your home, people have previously offered the suggestion of meeting them elsewhere. You do have that option available.

I was (still am) a widow when I investigated the church. Nothing you have related here is unusual or in any way inappropriate of out of line.

[Quin]

What a profoundly sexist statement. Bless your heart.

LOL. ... Some women are also complete featherheads. We are, neither gender, perfect. If the shoe had been on the other foot, and it was a widower who had met with the fluffiest, dipsiest, woman... And was made uncomfortable by her actions in her home, I would have said that, too. Unless the church was mostly made of of egomaniac men, and idiot women. Of which, it is not. The standard is for strong, smart, and compassionate men... As well as intelligent, caring, intentional women. With both genders being equally important and held in high regard. That's not always true, and the OPs first experience with a man (not missionary, but man representative of the church) was of someone who bowled over her statements, was dismissive, and was generally a patoot to her in her own home. So much so that based off of his actions, she no longer liked or felt comfortable "their" church. I'm sure we've all run into those individuals, that if they had been our gateway of understanding, we'd have slammed the gate shut and walked away, muttering good riddance. If what she had described was normal standards of behavior (offering to help, wanting her opinion, etc.) and she was upset about that... I'd have said that's normal for the church. His statements and actions shared are not normal for the church. That's just not how most of "our" men are, as it's not church-culture for them to be so. Do we have lots of individuals wih their own spin? Of course. From tattooed with blue hair, to sports-crazy, to old world manners, to, to, to. But hese are all individuals who have fallen in love with the gospel. It's not as if a girl all in black, with purple hair, fails to meet the standards of the church. It's just that she's not indicative of most of the women within it. Nor is a man who makes you feel weak and scared.

No, it is not. It is a simple recognition of the nature of the Priesthood. Quite the opposite of being self-aggrandizing, the brother freely admitted he lacked the faith to perform the miracles that Priesthood power might otherwise perform..

Arguably, the most amazing thing about the Restoration is that God has again shared his power with us. This brother may well have blundered awkwardly into that statement, but it does not make the statement itself either untrue or self-aggrandizing.

As I said... Not technically untrue if we want to break it down one way, albeit fairly awkwardly... But Vort. I double dog dare you to walk up to 6 strangers and tell them that you have the Power of God, and judge their reactions. Outside of the church would be best, but even if it was in a strange ward, I strongly suspect you'd get the raised eyebrow and back-away-a-step reaction even inside a new ward where no one knows you.

Similarly, I'm not in the Priesthood, so I can't say for sure that during 2nd hour that's not the exact phrasing used. However, I am given to understand that the concept is not having the same power as HF, but being a vessel for HIS power.

I agree, completely, that it's one of the most amazing things.

It's easy to take something beautiful, though, and make it scary or warp it.

This is a squabble about word choice. In the literal sense, she was "baptized", since "baptism" means "dipping under the water". But no faithful and knowledgeable Latter-day Saint would consider any "dipping under water" to be a "baptism" in the Priesthood sense. She was not baptized by anyone with divine authority, so it's entirely correct to say she "wasn't baptized". Again, the guy may have been a bull in a china shop in portraying the fact -- but it was a FACT, not a mere dismissive insult..

Squabble... EXACTLY. Why walk into someone's home and start a squabble?

Even if that's what one believes, it's poor manners.

It's like my other Christian friends in some faiths may well believe everyone else is going to Hell, but only the idiots walk around telling people they're going to hell. The rest ask people if they want to be saved.

PURELY a difference in words.

But one is insulting and aggressive, the over is inviting and uplifting.

Which is what I was apologizing for.

"No you weren't" is dismissive, and insulting.

True or not.

AMB!

Q