New to the LDS forum

[minishawnee]

This is my first post. I am an investigator at the moment. Ive learned a lot about Mormonism in the past year and have the missionaries coming next week. I will be honest, I am scared...I am alone and feel vulnerable.

[Roseslipper]

Hello and welcome

[minishawnee]

Thanks Roseslipper for the welcome. I'm really trying to understand the Mormon Religion but it has been hard for me. I have lots of questions as well and hopefully the missionaries can help me.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi and welcome minishawnee!

How come you're feeling vulnerable?

[Palerider]

Hello and welcome to the site.

[Rice]

I felt scared too, and kept putting off talking to missionaries - but, it was the best decision I ever made.

I have been meeting with them for a few weeks now and have started attend church.

If you want to talk about being new - feel free to send me a message :)

[minishawnee]

I feel vulnerable as I am alone now. I am worried as what will happen as me being a widow and how the Mormon Church will want my assets. I'm not sure I can afford to even be in this religion. I read about 10% tithe of my income....is that a month or to they go by the tax return? I just don't know, honestly.

[estradling75]

When the missionaries come they will talk to you about God, Christ, and Prophets... And how the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that teaches us more about Christ and that it was given us through prophets. They will invite you to read and pray about the Book of Mormon and ask you to ask God if the Book of Mormon is a true book of Scripture.

As you begin your study of the Book of Mormon the missionaries will return to answer your questions and teach you about modern prophets and how the Christ of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's restored church. And ask you if you would like to join by being baptized. You should only answer yes if in your personal prayers and study you receive and answer from God that what the missionaries are teaching you is correct.

If/when you say yes then the missionaries will start helping you prepare for baptism and teaching what is expected of all members before. This includes things like the Law of Chasity, the Word of Wisdom, and yes tithing. If you don't feel that you can meet these expectations then tell the missionaries and the baptism will not happen.

Tithing is ten percent of your income/increase. Generally speaking the church takes you at your word at what your ten percent should be. Should you for some reason tell the missionaries that you will pay tithing and then decide that you will not after you are baptized nothing will change. You will still be welcomed in church, you would still be considered a member. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is go through the temples The temples are reserved for those members who are doing everything that they agreed to (or at least making a sincere effort)

[Quin]

If you feel alone & vulnerable in your home... Just ask to meet them at the church on Sunday (or Wed evening is also busy). Or the library. Both have private rooms so you're not feeling all exposed in front of strangers, and both are public places. Heck, even a coffee shop has stuff we can drink or nosh on.

And welcome!

Q

[minishawnee]

Thank you for your responses. I feel odd about buying salvation...seems if you pay you get to attend the temple, else your just a member. I find that sad, as I would think the temple would be a place for all Mormons to come together and worship Christ. I'm beginning to rethink this missionary visit...

[estradling75]

If you see it as buying salvation of course you should run..run... run away.

If however you read the scriptures and see that the old testament required the person to buy/raise animals to sacrifice. A practice Jesus supported until he fulfilled the law of Moses (see also the story of the widows might)

In addition the Apostles after Christ also took in offerings (See story of Ananias and Sapphira)

As for the temple it is simply a Holy Place and is limited to those that have the understanding and willingness to obey the Lord in all the commandments (of which tithing is one of many)

[pam]

Thank you for your responses. I feel odd about buying salvation...seems if you pay you get to attend the temple, else your just a member. I find that sad, as I would think the temple would be a place for all Mormons to come together and worship Christ. I'm beginning to rethink this missionary visit...

Tithing is a hard concept for many people. When you think that everything we have we have to give credit to the Lord for it. It's our way of giving back in helping to build up the Kingdom of God.

When we pay tithing it goes to pay for so many things, meetinghouses (the ones you see locally), temples, education, and the list goes on and on. When a meetinghouse or temple is used you can know it's entirely paid for as the church doesn't want to be in debt.

[Dravin]

Thank you for your responses. I feel odd about buying salvation...

I would too, of course that's not the situation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

seems if you pay you get to attend the temple, else your just a member.

No, you need to make and keep previous covenants to attend the temple, one of which is the commitment to pay tithing. If it really was, "You pay, you attend." then adulterers, as long as they paid, would be recommended to attend and people who have no income would be barred. Such is not the case.

I find that sad, as I would think the temple would be a place for all Mormons to come together and worship Christ.

The temple is a place where members who have made and are keeping previous covenants go to make additional covenants. It makes no sense to usher people in to make additional promises and commitments to the Lord when they struggling to keep the covenants they've already made. What you're talking about is the local chapel, and indeed, everyone is welcome regardless of how well they are keeping the covenants they've made or even if they are interested in making covenants in the first place, as long as you aren't disruptive you're welcome.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Dravin

[Quin]

You cannot buy salvation.

We come together in the chapel. Which is where we go every Sunday.

Temple isn't like a Cathedral... It isn't just a very large church, where some people worship every Sunday, others come for holidays/special events/etc. Temple is where one goes, often solitary, knowing non one there... Nor will you meet them again... To make additional covenants. It's not about fellowship. Although groups often go together (set up by the RS at church every couple months), or a husband/wife may have a date night at the Temple... But it's not a social function.

Church/chapel/meetinghouse/stake center, I believe is what you're thinking of with worship & fellowship.

Something you may not be aware, as well, if you haven't attended sacrament.... Is that we don't pass a basket every week (or ever). Or have an alms box. Nor does one submit their tax returns and get instructed as to the amount that one is "supposed" to donate (my grandparents left their church -denomination withheld- because of that practice. They were supposed to donate 30%. Others were 'supposed' to donate 10-50% or even more). Other churches one "buys" pews (and therefore the right to sit there, with front pews running into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars).

I'm not saying any way is better than any other... Just shaping that churches need funds from members, and go about it in a variety of different ways. Some DO say that you're buying salvation. We don't. Because we don't believe you can buy salvation.

Q

[bytebear]

In the temple, you make some pretty serious covenants with God. It's not just tithing that is used as a gauge of you willingness to accept Christ and his commandments. If you cannot live them before you go to the temple, how can you be expected to covenant with God to live them? By the way, the temple requirements are the same as the baptism requirements. You must be willing to attend church regularly, keep the Word of Wisdom, be honest with your dealings with your fellow man, accept Christ as your savior, and accept this as His church. If you are to become a member through baptism, tithing is also expected, regardless of whether you go to the temple. The temple is an additional blessing, not an additional burden and nothing that any church member shouldn't already be living.

[minishawnee]

It's not that I am against paying my fair share to the Church, its that I have to wait a full year before I can enter a Temple and that is only if I get a Temple Recommend. What if I'm found not worthy? Can it take many years to get a Temple Recommend? Can I get my money back and say ok, I tried, no hard feelings? Do you sign a paper with a Bishop when you first join? Can you join as a member not through baptism? I wasn't aware that one could do that.

as long as you aren't disruptive you're welcome.

and Devin, I would never disrupt a church. Negativity not a good way to teach.

[Dravin]

It's not that I am against paying my fair share to the Church, its that I have to wait a full year before I can enter a Temple and that is only if I get a Temple Recommend.

Not strictly true, you can get a recommend to participate in some aspects of the temple prior to a year. It's termed a limited use recommend and one can obtain it almost immediately after becoming a member.

What if I'm found not worthy?

Then you should work on what it is that is preventing you from attending the temple. While there are a fair amount of people who like to portray having a temple recommend as some Herculean task it pretty much amounts to keeping the covenants and commitments you made at baptism.

Can it take many years to get a Temple Recommend?

I think you're asking the wrong question. Technically the answer is yes, but the answer must be yes unless every member receives one automatically regardless of behavior or belief prior to two years of membership (or how many ever years you want to term many), so the answer doesn't tell you much. The fundamental limitation on obtaining a temple recommend is one's individual commitment and follow through on their covenants. The questions asked are standardized, it's not like one is maneuvering to try and convince people you're worthy like some sort of courtroom or political drama.

For the record the baptismal interview questions are also standardized.

Can I get my money back and say ok, I tried, no hard feelings?

No. Legally it's a charitable donation, religiously it's a portion of what the Lord has given you that you are returning to him. Tithing isn't money paid into an escrow for a temple recommend or some such.

Do you sign a paper with a Bishop when you first join?

Sign a paper to what end? Are you thinking that you're somehow making a legally binding commitment to pay tithing? If so, you're terribly mistaken. There are forms filled out, but they are primarily filled out by the missionaries, they revolve around making sure the baptism was performed correctly and creating a membership record for you (mostly a matter of making sure your personal information is correct). I honestly can't recall if any of the forms require your signature, but you'd be filling them out with the missionaries not the Bishop.

Can you join as a member not through baptism?

No. I'm thinking there are some really fundamental misunderstandings going on, such as just what, from the LDS perspective, being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means.

and Devin, I would never disrupt a church. Negativity not a good way to teach.

I wasn't imputing any behavior to you, simply giving a caveat to the claim that everyone is welcome.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Dravin

[minishawnee]

Devin: I was responding to byebears line:

If you are to become a member through baptism, tithing is also expected, regardless of whether you go to the temple.

. I read that to mean: IF you become a member through baptism? I thought you could become a member some other way.

I thought maybe you signed a paper stating how much tithing you would pay?

I am really very totally confused and not mocking your religion. Im trying to figure it out and Im having a very hard time. I do not attend church and haven't in many years, so maybe I am not up on the right words to say or even questions to ask. sorry I bothered you.

please forgive me.

[Quin]

Devin: I was responding to byebears line: . I read that to mean: IF you become a member through baptism? I thought you could become a member some other way.

I thought maybe you signed a paper stating how much tithing you would pay?

I am really very totally confused and not mocking your religion. Im trying to figure it out and Im having a very hard time. I do not attend church and haven't in many years, so maybe I am not up on the right words to say or even questions to ask. sorry I bothered you.

please forgive me.

The only way to become a member is through baptism, although one can attend as a non-member for years, decades, life even (many people marry outside the church. We don't require conversion prior to marriage. As such, while many do not attend on Sundays, many do. As non-members. You don't have to be a member to attend church on Sunday).

One of the covenants of baptism is to pay tithing.

Ipso facto, if you've been baptized, and are therefore a member, you've agreed to tithing.

Which is 10% of your increase. Meaning that certain things don't count (those living off student loans, or on credit cards due to job loss, etc... Typically pay $0 tithe. Because 10% of 0 = 0. Loans aren't an increase. )

Tithing, however, is voluntary.

You could be making a zillion dollars and pay 0, or be skint broke and pay 0.

It is not a legally binding contract.

The church can only accept money freely given.

It doesn't take.

There is no automatic deposit, no monthly or yearly contact.

It's an envelope that you fill out every 2 weeks, every month, every quarter... Whatever.

The tithe is the same amount for everyone.

Whether you make a zillion a year, or zero.

10%.

People also typically pay on a monthly basis... But as I said, some people pay weekly or quarterly.

So if you make 120k a year, lose your job,a nd make 25k per year in your new job

You don't pay on the 120 month after month. You pay on the 25.

Tithing adjusts as one's means adjust. Up or down.

It's NOT an "Ill pay x amount this year"

It's I'll pay 10% of my increase.

Like taxes. It's only valid on money you've actually earned, and some things are exempt.

Unlike taxes, no one comes after you if you don't pay.

Clearer?

Q

[Quin]

I should add... Tithing is only one SMALL part in required for a Temple Recommend.

Keeping one's other covenants

Classes & ongoing learning

Regular participation

The LDS Church is a very action-based religion.

Judaism is similar in that regard.

In order to convert to Judaism, one has to study seriously for 1 year, and meet several requirements before being allowed to convert.

We have a similar system (apx 1 year of serious study, along with other requirements, before being eligible for a temple recommend)... But we allow conversions to happen first. Then the preparation.

Curiosity is not preparation.

Much as we've all felt it!

(Either as converts or kids)

Q

[Dravin]

1I read that to mean: IF you become a member through baptism? I thought you could become a member some other way.

I see now. No, the only way is through baptism. You should parse his "a member through baptism" as a single 'chunk'. He was being descriptive rather than hinting at alternative paths to membership.

I thought maybe you signed a paper stating how much tithing you would pay?

As a practical matter something like that would require you to predict your income for the coming year (or what ever period of time you think such a statement would be covering) as tithing is 10% of your income/increase. At any rate, no, that doesn't occur.

Tithing is handled thus:

Paying tithing: There a little envelopes with accompanying forms. The forms are so they know who the money is from and because one can also give offerings to things other than tithing and so they'd know if you put $100 in there that you meant $80 of it to go to tithing and $20 to humanitarian aid. You fill out the forms, drop it into the envelope along with the money, seal it up, and either mail it or hand it to the Bishop (when you see him at Church, not as part of some sort of formal handing over).

A lot of folks pay whenever they receive their paycheck for ease of calculation and to prevent accidentally spending it or 'borrowing' against it and having to try an make it back up with later paychecks. If one was so inclined they could simply pay in a lump sum once a year.

Tithing Settlement: It sounds ominous but it amounts to the Bishop asking you if you are a full tithe payer and you being given a record of your donations over the course of the year (it is a once a year meeting held at the end of the year). The purpose of giving you the record is so you can make sure there aren't any errors in the record and so the Bishop can ask you about your tithing status. Your tithing status is quite simple it is: Full Tithe Payer, Part Tithe Payer, or Non-Tithe Payer. There are no interrogations, quotas, or demands of financial forms, you simply reply.

If you're still curious about tithing settlement there is a previous thread talking about it here: http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/56003-timing-tithing-settlement.html

Temple Recommend: As part of the interview you're asked if you are a full tithe payer. It's that simple.

I am really very totally confused and not mocking your religion. Im trying to figure it out and Im having a very hard time. I do not attend church and haven't in many years, so maybe I am not up on the right words to say or even questions to ask. sorry I bothered you.

please forgive me.

I just want to be clear that I don't think your question was stupid, just that, as asked, it isn't necessarily giving you the information you're most likely seeking (based on my past experience with discussions with people such as yourself). Also, concerning the baptism/membership issue I was attempting to point out a potential fundamental misunderstanding not because I think you have to already know the answer, or because I'm offended that you may have such a misunderstanding, but to try an head off us talking past each other.

P.S. It's Dravin not Devin. :)

Edited February 17, 2014 by Dravin

[estradling75]

Lets walk through the typical way it goes... The missionaries will ask you to be baptized based on you believing the things that are taught. If you say yes they will continue to work with you to make sure you are prepared. That includes all the things you will be expected to commit to do. (Of which tithing is one) As you attend church you may or may not have lesson/talks on tithing. Usually such talks/lessons happen about once a year. That would be it for any public addresses on the issue and there is no collection plate being passed ever.

As Dravin pointed out you fill out an envelope and pay your tithing when you see the bishop in the hall. You can also hand the envelope to one of his two councilors. Given this no one that doesn't handle the processing the tithing will know how much you pay or how often ( and as was pointed out you could pay just one a year after you know what your increase was for that year if that works for you... Many who get paycheck pay every paycheck because that is easier)

When you pay your tithing it is an offering to the Lord and as such you don't have any further say in what happens. You are not a customer, you are not buying a product, you pay tithing because you have faith that the Lord commanded it for his own reasons (one of which is to provide for the physical needs of the church) and will bless you for your obedience.

The missionary will ask you if you will pay tithing... before you get baptized. Before you go through the temple the bishop will ask if you are paying tithing. Neither will ask to see any kinds of proof other then your word.

Once a year you will be invited to attend 'Tithing Settlement' (usually around November) this will allow you to double check that what you have paid matches the church has a record of (mistakes can happen) in perpetration for official tax paper work the church must file with the government by law (legally tithing counts as a charitable deduction for taxes in the USA)

This is the only meeting that you typically have with the bishop in which he has a record of what you have paid. After you have confirmed the total is correct (to the best of your knowledge) the bishop will ask if it represent a Full-tithing. If you answer full he will not ask for documentation. If for some reason it seems off he might ask what is happening. For example if you lived off student loans for a year then your tithing would be zero but you'd could declare full-tithe and be worthy. The bishop is aware that there are many factors that go into what the actual number is, but typically he will be more concerned that the person understands the principle and is doing their best to live it according to their means and circumstance. Because that is what makes a person worthy... not how big the number is

[NeuroTypical]

Can it take many years to get a Temple Recommend?

Yes, for some people who are struggling with things like addictions, or not paying child support, or folks having trouble believing in God, yes, it can take years.

Can I get my money back and say ok, I tried, no hard feelings?

I don't understand the question. Tithing isn't buying your way into heaven. It's not a financial transaction - there's no "I give church X$, and they give me salvation" going on here. That's not what tithing is. Tithing is supporting the work of the Lord's kingdom, a voluntary offering. When you donate to Goodwill, or the March of Dimes, or Friends of Firefighters or whatever, it's not a situation where you'd get your money back if you're not satisfied - same with church tithing.

Do you sign a paper with a Bishop when you first join?

No - you do nothing of the sort. There is no financial contract, no payment plans, no credit card auto-withdraw, nothing of the sort. Nobody looks at your paychecks or tax forms. You don't have to prove anything. That's totally not what's going on here minishawnee. When you covenant with God to be numbered among His people in His church (i.e. get baptized), you promise to keep commandments. One commandment is tithing. The scripture says "one tenth of your increase" - what that means is up to you. How you pay it is up to you. Whether you pay it or not is up to you. We don't have tithing police, or accountants. The only thing you do is put money in an envelope with a filled out tithing slip that looks like this:

You fill out that slip so the financial clerk knows who is donating the money, and where the donations should go (tithing, fast offerings, missionary fund, etc.)

Can you join as a member not through baptism?

No. Repent and be baptized. That's what the scriptures say, that's the only way it's done.

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

Lots of good answers on tithing above.

But, in my opinion, it is better to learn the principles taught by the Church line upon line, precept upon precept. Right now, in my opinion, the principle of tithing is farther down the list of principles to learn than, say, God's Plan of Salvation and the Atonement of Christ, the truth of the Book of Mormon, and the authority of Joseph Smith and the prophets after him. Without these, things like the Word of Wisdom (another Baptismal and Temple requirement - to promise not to smoke, drink alcohol, coffee, or tea, etc.) and Tithing is not going to make any sense.

[minishawnee]

I've read all your responses and I will say they have helped me. The missionaries are due to come tomorrow, and for some reason I am a total wreck....I will face my fears and do this, alone. My posting on this website took me totally out of my comfort zone, but, that tells me I need too step up, as that is how we learn. wish me luck.