Tithing

[Leah]

But then I find it hard to think that the Lord would put us in a situation where it would be necessary to choose between paying tithes or providing for your family.

You automatically blame the Lord for that situation? No other explanation possible?

[Leah]

How I pay my tithe is between the Lord and me, I have prayed and received my confirmation on what I need to pay. I have not told anyone how or how much they need to pay as that is between them and the Lord as well.

It is between the Lord and you, and you will have to account to Him for that. But you are advocating your system to others. That's not your right, as made clear by the Church.

I still see nowhere in church teaching that supports paying tithes AFTER you deduct rent, food, clothing, etc., as you advocate as correct.

[gfchase]

But then the rocks aren't yours to do with as you please. what an absurd comparsion to tithing. D&C 119 says:

And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

What did interest mean when this passage was written? Webster 1828 dictionary states several meanings but only one fits:

5. Any surplus advantage

What does it say about surplus:

1. Over plus; that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted. In the United States, the surplus of wheat and rye not required for consumption or exportation, is distilled.

2. In law, the residuum of an estate, after the debts and legacies are paid.

What does it say about over plus:

Surplus; that which remains after a supply, or beyond a quantity proposed. Take what is wanted and return the overplus

It would look like a fable to report that this gentleman gives away all which is the overplus of a great fortune.

So clearly we can see that at the time of the Prophet Joseph, the meaning of the word interest meant that which was remaining after all other needs were met, the surplus.

Do you really think that Heavenly Father wants us to be unable to feed, clothe, shelter our families? I believe that all comes from Heavenly Father, including our wages which he provides to meet our needs and the needs of our families, and that from our interest or surplus we pay a tithe to help with the needs of the Church.

Lets lay this to rest shall we, that is unless you would question an APOSTLE.

This from Matthias F Cowley in Cowley's Talks On Doctrine

"The law specifies one-tenth of all our interests annually. This means what it says, "one-tenth of our interests;" in other words, whatever comes to us as the result of our labors in any and every vocation of life. If we lend money, whatever the interest on the loan amounts to, one-tenth of this interest is tithing. If the money is invested in any enterprise and brings a dividend, one-tenth of the dividend is the tithing. If a man is a carpenter, a blacksmith or a school teacher, and earns a salary, one-tenth of that salary should be consecrated to the Lord as tithing; and the tithe-payer has the other nine-tenths to meet his expenses and to use as a means of livelihood. Whatever the occupation, whether farmer, mechanic, professor, miner or whatever, one-tenth of his interest annually is the tithing. If questions arise, as they sometimes do, especially with the farmer regarding legitimate expenses used in producing what is left to us as a profit on our labors, the Latter-day Saint, if in doubt as to the amount to pay, is usually certain of this-that between two propositions one of which he knows is right, and the other may be but he is not sure, he is always safe to act upon that side of the question which extends to the law of the Lord the greater liberality. "It is more blessed to give than to receive." "The Lord loveth a cheerful giver," and "He that deviseth liberal means, shall stand by his liberality," while the man who complies grudgingly or studies how little he can do, and at the same time have the name and record of doing, is not the man who loves the Lord with all his heart, mind and strength, and should not anticipate a full measure of blessing attached to His law."

Jerry

Edited February 20, 2014 by gfchase

[Latter Days Guy]

You automatically blame the Lord for that situation? No other explanation possible?

No I don't blame the Lord for any situation.

[Latter Days Guy]

It is between the Lord and you, and you will have to account to Him for that. But you are advocating your system to others. That's not your right, as made clear by the Church.

I still see nowhere in church teaching that supports paying tithes AFTER you deduct rent, food, clothing, etc., as you advocate as correct.

I'm not advocating any system at all other than what the Church teaches. That you pay 10% on your interest as a tithe. That how you come to that decision is between you and the Lord as stated by the Church.

[Latter Days Guy]

Lets lay this to rest shall we, that is unless you would question an APOSTLE.

This from Matthias F Cowley in Cowley's Talks On Doctrine

"The law specifies one-tenth of all our interests annually. This means what it says, "one-tenth of our interests;" in other words, whatever comes to us as the result of our labors in any and every vocation of life. If we lend money, whatever the interest on the loan amounts to, one-tenth of this interest is tithing. If the money is invested in any enterprise and brings a dividend, one-tenth of the dividend is the tithing. If a man is a carpenter, a blacksmith or a school teacher, and earns a salary, one-tenth of that salary should be consecrated to the Lord as tithing; and the tithe-payer has the other nine-tenths to meet his expenses and to use as a means of livelihood. Whatever the occupation, whether farmer, mechanic, professor, miner or whatever, one-tenth of his interest annually is the tithing. If questions arise, as they sometimes do, especially with the farmer regarding legitimate expenses used in producing what is left to us as a profit on our labors, the Latter-day Saint, if in doubt as to the amount to pay, is usually certain of this-that between two propositions one of which he knows is right, and the other may be but he is not sure, he is always safe to act upon that side of the question which extends to the law of the Lord the greater liberality. "It is more blessed to give than to receive." "The Lord loveth a cheerful giver," and "He that deviseth liberal means, shall stand by his liberality," while the man who complies grudgingly or studies how little he can do, and at the same time have the name and record of doing, is not the man who loves the Lord with all his heart, mind and strength, and should not anticipate a full measure of blessing attached to His law."

Jerry

And that is as clear as mud as well, firstly he goes on about tithing on the interest of a loan and not the actual loan money, then about tithing on the dividend of money invested but then not the actual money invested. Then he contradicts himself and says that 10% of the salary is to be tithed on but then says 10% of the interest of the salary should be tithed on! And what about legitimate expenses, is he saying that those are paid before the tithe or after the tithe?

Like I've said all along:

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

[Guest]

And that is as clear as mud as well, firstly he goes on about tithing on the interest of a loan and not the actual loan money, then about tithing on the dividend of money invested but then not the actual money invested. Then he contradicts himself and says that 10% of the salary is to be tithed on but then says 10% of the interest of the salary should be tithed on! And what about legitimate expenses, is he saying that those are paid before the tithe or after the tithe?

Like I've said all along:

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

This is actually a big discussion/debate among tax politicians....

You get an increase the moment you earn the money. So, say you dug a ditch and got paid $100 for it. You just made a gain of $100. Say to dig the ditch you had to buy a $10 shovel. You only gained $90. So you give $9 to the Church.

Now, say you took that $90 and loaned it to your friend. A week later your friend gave you back the $90 and then gave you $10 interest. You give the church $1. Not $10. Because that $90 is not a gain anymore. Only $10 is.

Now say you bought $10 food with the $10 shovel. So you think... I only gained $80. Nope. Because, whether you dig a ditch or not, you still eat. So that $10 for food is not a cost to digging a ditch that gained you $100. Same for your house, your electricity, your TV, your Internet, you Visa or MasterCard...

Now, you could say... You're crazy Anatess. My tithing is $0 because I spent $10 on food, $10 on mortgage, $10 on.electricity, $10 on water, $10 on car, $10 on TV, $10 on Internet, $10 on visa, and $10 on MasterCard in addition to the $10 shovel. You can't tell me what to tithe. It's between me and the Lord. Ok, dude. If you brought it up to the bishop and in your earnest prayer to the Holy Ghost for guidance, your conscience is clear, go for it. But if you ask me, I'll tell you your tithe is not $0.

[Latter Days Guy]

This is actually a big discussion/debate among tax politicians....

You get an increase the moment you earn the money. So, say you dug a ditch and got paid $100 for it. You just made a gain of $100. Say to dig the ditch you had to buy a $10 shovel. You only gained $90. So you give $9 to the Church.

Now, say you took that $90 and loaned it to your friend. A week later your friend gave you back the $90 and then gave you $10 interest. You give the church $1. Not $10. Because that $90 is not a gain anymore. Only $10 is.

Now say you bought $10 food with the $10 shovel. So you think... I only gained $80. Nope. Because, whether you dig a ditch or not, you still eat. So that $10 for food is not a cost to digging a ditch that gained you $100. Same for your house, your electricity, your TV, your Internet, you Visa or MasterCard...

Now, you could say... You're crazy Anatess. My tithing is $0 because I spent $10 on food, $10 on mortgage, $10 on.electricity, $10 on water, $10 on car, $10 on TV, $10 on Internet, $10 on visa, and $10 on MasterCard in addition to the $10 shovel. You can't tell me what to tithe. It's between me and the Lord. Ok, dude. If you brought it up to the bishop and in your earnest prayer to the Holy Ghost for guidance, your conscience is clear, go for it. But if you ask me, I'll tell you your tithe is not $0.

So you advice is to become a banker and pay even less in tithes?

[notquiteperfect]

Ok, GB, how about this (since even quotes from apostles about tithing hasn't seemed to click for you) - whenever someone functions from an attitude/perspective of 'lack', that's what they'll experience but those who choose generosity practice abundance and that's what they create. Even financial experts encourage donating to charity even if a person doesn't think they can afford it because it shifts your thinking and "as a man thinketh, so is he".

Like I said before, I can't imagine nickle and diming the Lord when He hasn't done that with blessings for me.

[pam]

I'm not advocating any system at all other than what the Church teaches. That you pay 10% on your interest as a tithe. That how you come to that decision is between you and the Lord as stated by the Church.

Okay I'm with you on this. However, according to the quote that you have posted twice it says interest (which is understood to mean income). Remember I'm quoting from the quote you've posted twice.

It doesn't say pay tithing on your "income or interest" after you've paid all of your bills. It says "interest" which is understood to mean income.

But again, it's up to you what you feel is appropriate to pay.

[Guest]

So you advice is to become a banker and pay even less in tithes?

Okay, I know I'm at a disadvantage because English is not my native language, but I'm willing to bet $100 and a shovel that the English speakers on this thread are scratching their heads on this one...

[pam]

Okay, I know I'm at a disadvantage because English is not my native language, but I'm willing to bet $100 and a shovel that the English speakers on this thread are scratching their heads on this one...

I know I was. :)

[Latter Days Guy]

Okay I'm with you on this. However, according to the quote that you have posted twice it says interest (which is understood to mean income). Remember I'm quoting from the quote you've posted twice.

It doesn't say pay tithing on your "income or interest" after you've paid all of your bills. It says "interest" which is understood to mean income.

But again, it's up to you what you feel is appropriate to pay.

And as I have posted, at the time that that particular passage was written the people understood that interest meant that which was left over after meeting your basic needs.

[pam]

And as I have posted, at the time that that particular passage was written the people understood that interest meant that which was left over after meeting your basic needs.

References to that fact please.

[Latter Days Guy]

This is the full text from the 1828 Websters dictonary about interest:

IN'TEREST, v.t. [L. inter and esse.]

1. To concern; to affect; to excite emotion or passion, usually in favor,but sometimes against a person or thing. A narration of suffering interests us in favor of the sufferer. We are interested in the story or in the fate of the sufferer. We are interested to know the result, issue or event of an enterprise. It is followed by in or for. We are interested in the narration,but for the sufferer.

2. To give a share in. Christ, by his atonement, has interested believers in the blessings of the covenant of grace.

3. To have a share.

We are not all interested in the public funds, but we are all interested in the happiness of a free government.

4. To engage; as, to interest one in our favor.

To interest one's self, is to take a share or concern in.

Clearly the above is not relevant to the issue of tithing.

IN'TEREST, n. Concern; advantage; good; as private interest; public interest.

Divisions hinder the common interest and public good.

1. Influence over others. They had now lost their interest at court.

He knew his interest sufficient to procure the office.

2. Share; portion; part; participation in value. He has parted with his interest in the stocks. He has an interest in a manufactory of cotton goods.

3. Regard to private profit.

'Tis interest calls off all her sneaking train.

4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest. Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.

Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.

Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest.

The above is about commerce and the charging of a levy on money loaned, so again has no releavance to tithes.

5. Any surplus advantage.

With all speed,

you shall have your desire with interest.

So the only relevant piece of the text is the one above which talks about surplus advantage, so what is surplus advantage?

Again Websters comes to our aid:

SUR'PLUS, n. [L. id.,more.]

1. Overplus; that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted. In the United States, the surplus of wheat and rye not required for consumption or exportation, is distilled.

2. In law, the residuum of an estate, after the debts and legacies are paid.

So we can see at the time that the law of tithing was given, the people understood the use of the word interest to mean that which remains, is in excess of what is needed, the remains after the debts and legacies are paid.

[Smeagums]

Some interesting quotes:

On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children's children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands. (March 29, 1834.) DHC 2:174-175.

(Signed) JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.,

OLIVER COWDERY.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

Letter from Heber C. to his wife:

Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837

My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball],

....We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.

There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.

vs

Dec 2012 Ensign:

If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.

I have a confirmation from the Lord that what is written in the Ensign article is incorrect.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Smeagums

[Latter Days Guy]

If your wondering about overplus then this is what Websters says about that:

O'VERPLUS, n. [over and L. plus, more.]

Surplus; that which remains after a supply, or beyond a quantity proposed. Take what is wanted and return the overplus.

It would look like a fable to report that this gentleman gives away all which is the overplus of a great fortune.

[pam]

So we can see at the time that the law of tithing was given, the people understood the use of the word interest to mean that which remains, is in excess of what is needed, the remains after the debts and legacies are paid.

Ahhh but we aren't talking about a statement that was made at the time the law of tithing was given. We're talking about a statement that was put out by the First Presidency in 1970 which was a clarification to many questions that had come in.

So at the time the First Presidency made this statement are there any church references that show that they meant you pay on the amount after all of your bills are paid?

[Guest]

Ahhh but we aren't talking about a statement that was made at the time the law of tithing was given. We're talking about a statement that was put out by the First Presidency in 1970 which was a clarification to many questions that had come in.

So at the time the First Presidency made this statement are there any church references that show that they meant you pay on the amount after all of your bills are paid?

How dare you question Webster as an authority in the interpretation of doctrinal matters?

[Latter Days Guy]

Ahhh but we aren't talking about a statement that was made at the time the law of tithing was given. We're talking about a statement that was put out by the First Presidency in 1970 which was a clarification to many questions that had come in.

So at the time the First Presidency made this statement are there any church references that show that they meant you pay on the amount after all of your bills are paid?

Which was quoting Doctrine and Covenants 119 maybe?

[Latter Days Guy]

Okay, I know I'm at a disadvantage because English is not my native language, but I'm willing to bet $100 and a shovel that the English speakers on this thread are scratching their heads on this one...

You said you take the $90 and lent it to a friend, so obviously as its the full $90 you haven't paid tithes on it. Then your friend pays you back the $90 plus $10 dollars and that $10 becomes the interest which you then say you pay $1 tithes on because that $90 is not a gain anymore. Only $10 is.

[Guest]

You said you take the $90 and lent it to a friend, so obviously as its the full $90 you haven't paid tithes on it. Then your friend pays you back the $90 plus $10 dollars and that $10 becomes the interest which you then say you pay $1 tithes on because that $90 is not a gain anymore. Only $10 is.

Oh phooey. I never said you only have $100 bucks to your name. But okay, revise the math if it makes it clearer for you but the principle stands. You pay tithes as you earn the money. Whatever you got left over after tithes is what you spend to your heart's content including loaning out to someone to make more money.

But, you know, that's not even the principle of tithes. The principle of tithes is to recognize that everything you have and everything you are is dedicated to the Lord. So a tithe is merely a conscious act of acknowledging that. If you have to nitpick a tithe, you've missed that principle already.

[Anddenex]

No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

Actually, a prophet or apostle is justified to provide clarifying statements regarding scripture, especially the First Presidency of the Church.

[Latter Days Guy]

Oh phooey. I never said you only have $100 bucks to your name. But okay, revise the math if it makes it clearer for you but the principle stands. You pay tithes as you earn the money. Whatever you got left over after tithes is what you spend to your heart's content including loaning out to someone to make more money.

But, you know, that's not even the principle of tithes. The principle of tithes is to recognize that everything you have and everything you are is dedicated to the Lord. So a tithe is merely a conscious act of acknowledging that. If you have to nitpick a tithe, you've missed that principle already.

No you said you had $100 of which you spent $10 on a spade, hence the $90 remaining. I have already said that I believe that everything including our income comes from the Lord. I also believe that what the Lord provides he does so to sustain us and our families and that he wouldn't place a burden upon us that we could not bear.

[Leah]

And as I have posted, at the time that that particular passage was written the people understood that interest meant that which was left over after meeting your basic needs.

You verified that how? Did you talk to "the people"?