Tithing


walkingwithgrace
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The problem is, a lot of people read these forums, whether they reply or not. We need to be sure that we're putting out the right information and not giving people false doctrine.

So if I do as the first presidency says and take what I believe I owe the Lord in tithes to him and get confirmation of that then I'm giving people false doctrine? Again I point you in the direction of what the first presidency has said:

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

I have taken what I do to the Lord in prayer and asked for his guidance on the matter. I've done as the first presidency has advocated, I feel that the Lord has confirmed that I have made the right choice in how I contribute to the building of the kingdom.

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I can see where you could interpret it as GB-UK does. I don't tithe that way personally, but I would never condemn anyone else's method for how they figure tithing.

Rather than many of you trying to tell GB-UK how wrong he is, why not leave it between Him and the Lord as the First Presidency has said to do?

We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.
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"Personal revelation" is not an inoculation against public criticism when the purported revelation is in clear contravention of the unambiguous teachings of the Church.

The Church leaves the definition of "income" to the individual; but the Church is also crystal clear that "income" is what is meant by "interest" as used in D&C 119. I'm either in line with the Church's teachings on that particular issue, or I'm not--and if I'm not, but publicly advocate my position anyways, I should expect that people are going to comment and criticize.

If I really think my unorthodox belief is supposed to be "between me and the Lord", then why on earth would I try to lead others to my way of thinking and publicly insinuate--intentionally or not--that the Church is in apostasy on this issue because it doesn't see things my way?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Just curious, those who believe interest means income, do they feel the same way about presents? If you all get a cash present, do you also calculate tithe from it? What about if your rich uncle gives you a car worth $100,000 for Christmas, do you tithe? What about if your mother decides to leave you a house that has a lot of sentimental value and she doesn't wish for you to sell it? Do you tithe as well? What about if you do not have the $10,000 tithe from your fancy car or the tithe money from the house? Do you sell the car and the house to get the money to pay tithes?

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I wouldn't tell another person what to do in that situation. But, personally?

--Yes, I tithe on cash gifts received. In-kind gifts? Maybe I should; but I've never gotten a gift so big I felt it was worth the fuss of calculating the gift's actual value. I typically round my tithing up a couple of dollars anyways, and just sort of hope that my round-up covers that kind of thing.

--What about gifts that have such large value that I just can't get together the cash for the tithing? With something that's likely to appreciate in value (like a house), I could rationalize waiting to tithe the gift until I actually converted the gift into cash (provided I do plan to make such a conversion during my lifetime). On something that's likely to decline in value (like a car)--if I couldn't come up with, say, $10K cash to pay the tithe, I probably shouldn't be driving a $100K car in the first place. I would (after a frank conversation with my uncle, and with his consent) convert it to cash and tithe on it; then use the rest to build my six-month savings, pay down my mortgage/student debt, or deal with some other liability.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I believe that I personally get the most out of tithing when I concentrate on the spirit of the law rather then the letter and to me the spirit of the law is.........

1. Tithing is a sacrifice and sacrifice is going to hurt sometimes

2. Tithing is to remind me that what I get comes from the Lord.

3. Tithing is a principle that helps keeps the natural man's tendency for greed in check in the same way that the Law of Chasity keeps lust in check.

Any additions to this this list from others would be greatly appreciated.

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"Personal revelation" is not an inoculation against public criticism when the purported revelation is in clear contravention of the unambiguous teachings of the Church.

The Church leaves the definition of "income" to the individual; but the Church is also crystal clear that "income" is what is meant by "interest" as used in D&C 119. I'm either in line with the Church's teachings on that particular issue, or I'm not--and if I'm not, but publicly advocate my position anyways, I should expect that people are going to comment and criticize.

If I really think my unorthodox belief is supposed to be "between me and the Lord", then why on earth would I try to lead others to my way of thinking and publicly insinuate--intentionally or not--that the Church is in apostasy on this issue because it doesn't see things my way?

I've done as the church has directed, I've made the decision, after taking the matter in prayer to the Lord about how I should pay my tithes. I feel that I have received confirmation of that from the Lord. I also believe that you pay tithes on your income, or where do you think I get the funds to pay my tithe in the first place? I'm doing as the church prescribes and which you state above that the church leaves it up to the individual to define what that income is. Have I said you must define your income in a specific way like you are trying to do? No I have shared how I define income after seeking guidance as directed by the church from the Lord. No where have I said this is the way that everyone should pay their tithes, as that is a matter between the individual and the Lord. No where have I said, nor do I believe that the church is in apostasy over this or any other issue.

I will leave you with this from the Fairs WIKI:

Members of the Church covenant to pay tithing—the word comes from "tithe," meaning "a tenth."

This has naturally led to the question, "A tenth of what? Gross income? Net income? Pre-tax? Post-tax?"

Quite simply, the method is left up to the individual. The First Presidency issued the following statement in 1970, which is repeated the current (2006) Church Handbook of Instructions:

The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.[1] (emphasis added)

Each member is to prayerfully decide how to interpret this statement. No member is ever to be told how to calculate their tithing. No member is authorized to tell another how to pay tithing.

Each year, members of the Church meet with their bishop and declare their tithing status—they either indicate that they are full tithe payers, or not. No questions are asked about the means whereby this is determined—such matters are between the member and the Lord.

Anyone who claims otherwise bears the burden of proof, and should be required to produce a statement which differs from the First Presidency's statement of 1970.

Edited by GB-UK
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I still have yet to see anything that states tithing is paid on the amount after we have paid our mortgage, car payments, utility payments, cell phone bills, credit card payments and so forth.

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Have I said you must define your income in a specific way like you are trying to do?

Wait--where have I tried to do that? All I've done is address the notion that tithing is defined as ten percent of "surplus" rather than ten percent of "income"; and pointed out what I perceive to be the danger in maintaining an attitude of "this much, and no more" where offerings to the Lord are concerned. (though I confess that in this discussion I have been working off the assumption that, in modern parlance, "income" and "surplus" are two different things.

I daresay that if either you or I decided that our annual "income" was only the cash we had left over as of December 31 of the preceding tax year, and filled out our tax income declarations accordingly--we'd run into some issues. But of course, to coin a phrase, "that's between you and the IRS [or Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, as the case may be]."

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...If I really think my unorthodox belief is supposed to be "between me and the Lord", then why on earth would I try to lead others to my way of thinking and publicly insinuate--intentionally or not--that the Church is in apostasy on this issue because it doesn't see things my way?

Who's done that?

M.

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That's a good question, Maureen.

I don't mean to be panning personal revelation; but I think personal revelations that happen to be in keeping with what our natural selves want to do anyways, should be regarded with some caution. Because, if I'm looking for a revelation that justifies my recapturing a few hundred dollars of financial outlays per month by doing something that the ordinary meaning of the applicable standard would not sanction-well, I can get one of those every day of the week, and twice on Saturdays.

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That's a good question, Maureen.

I don't mean to be panning personal revelation; but I think personal revelations that happen to be in keeping with what our natural selves want to do anyways, should be regarded with some caution. Because, if I'm looking for a revelation that justifies my recapturing a few hundred dollars of financial outlays per month by doing something that the ordinary meaning of the applicable standard would not sanction-well, I can get one of those every day of the week, and twice on Saturdays.

I think intention and integrity should come into play when one considers how they will act on interpreting a doctrine. If that person interprets it with honesty and integrity and his actions are beneficial to him and God then all is good. But what about those who do not agree with this person's interpretation and suspiciously judge him, thinking his actions are selfish toward God. What happens to these people who judge this person incorrectly? Who's more in the wrong, the one who is honest toward God or the one who cannot see into this person's heart but judges him anyway?

A scripture that might apply here is Luke 18:10-12

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

M.

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I am kind of lost/confused about what exactly seems to be the issue and what exactly people disagree with GB-UK. Anyone can please explain?

I'll stick my oar in:

GB seems to be taking the Farmer's Part.

Meaning my farming & ranching family take care of their family out of the proceeds of their work (they don't buy food & shelter, they raise both). Only AFTER they've fed their families, stored things by, fixed houses and barns... Do they sell their surplus... And have money for it. Generally they only sell once a year, sometimes twice. Depends. In any event, of what they sold, that would be their increase. Of which 10% would go to the Church.

Most of us, though, aren't farmers.

We get paychecks.

What most of us do, is simply take 10% of their paycheck.

(Net, gross, whatever)

So the idea of taking care of your family first, doesn't work for most.

Even though that probably what a lot of the early members did, and what I suspect most farmers & ranchers still do.

It's not that EITHER concept is wrong.

They just don't translate from one world into the other very well.

It's a 180 concept.

Like on farms, the more children you have, the richer you are... As the more free labor you have. It's like a potluck. Each new person bringing a dish. So you end up with a feast.

But in the city, the more children you have, the poorer you are... As there are more muons to feed, bigger house & car needed, more classes to pay for, etc. Like having a pizza. A sum total that each new person takes a piece from. The more people there. The less pizza everyone gets.

But the concept is still legitimate.

Like, few of us in the city would total all the money we save from smart shopping, and add the total to our income to tithe from.

But in using Farming Ideology in the city, means taking care of your family first, then tithing off of the remainder. Which would often be $0 (but hardly most much less always). As many of us in the city live not making ends meet. If we were farmers, we'd have nothing to sell at the end of the year. Because we'd be using up everything we had just to survive. Paycheck Ideology, though, means 10% of whatever that number is. Whether you can pay your power bill, or buy groceries... Or not.

I find our leaders to be very wise in how they've allowed the flexibility in tithing for different lifestyles & concepts.

Q

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What happens to these people who judge this person incorrectly?

M.

Maureen, I think there's a fine line between judging the righteousness of an individual, versus judging the soundness of the ideas that the individual espouses and promulgates. I hope I've not crossed that line.

JAG, I was just thinking that Church history actually agrees with his point, back then was the surplus but the verbatim as well as the procedure dramatically changed once the saints settle down in Utah.

Wasn't it you who posted a Dialogue article sometime back that showed that at one point the rate was something like 2%, and that Apostles didn't typically tithe at all until the early 20th century? If you have the link, I'd love to re-read it.

At any rate, given that the Church was still ironing out the relationship between tithing and consecration well into the Utah period and that tithing/consecration practices seem to have varied somewhat by geography, I'm not inclined to take past practice as dispositive. The Church's current position--at least on the "surplus" versus "income" issue--is more than clear.

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Yes, I think we can safely say that there is a different historical understanding of tithing in the church than that which most members currently practice or express.

“If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

We also know that historically President Snow reemphasized the payment of tithing. In fact, it is in one of our recent manuals that we read, “I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing.” - Lorenzo Snow manual pg 160. What did the church decide to leave out through the use of an ellipsis?

Here is the relevant quote from the conference report of 1899. “I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means (emphasis added) shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing.”

I know individuals that pay on gross, some that pay on net, and others that pay on some some interpretation of increase, and I know individuals in each group that have current and valid temple recommends. In the end, I think it matters not what we think, or even what our bishops think, but rather what the Lord thinks of what we do. In fact, if I am judging someones contributions because they are in somewhat less or different than the way I choose to contribute I am probably less in favor in the Lord's eyes than they are.

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Just curious, those who believe interest means income, do they feel the same way about presents? If you all get a cash present, do you also calculate tithe from it? What about if your rich uncle gives you a car worth $100,000 for Christmas, do you tithe? What about if your mother decides to leave you a house that has a lot of sentimental value and she doesn't wish for you to sell it? Do you tithe as well? What about if you do not have the $10,000 tithe from your fancy car or the tithe money from the house? Do you sell the car and the house to get the money to pay tithes?

I have always understood "income" to be financial earning through mine own labor. A gift, is not earned income, but a gif, for I didn't do any labor to receive an increase in my income. When an elderly lady, struggling to make ends meet, and she receives a gift of fast offerings -- is she required to pay a tithe -- no. What if this same lady receives a $50 dollar cash check in the mail to help her get by, pay for food and groceries for the week -- does she pay a tithe on this gift -- no. It was not her income, it was a gift. Plus, if the gift came from a member in good standing with the Church isn't the money being gifted already tithed?

Now, what if I am struggling, instead of my parents gifting me money to survive they actually provide a job by which I am able to perform...I work (labor) and then they pay me for this labor? This monies I would tithe because it was an increase of income through my labor.

However, if a person wants to pay tithing on a gift...that is purely up to them.

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Blue3d, if you're trying to get by on $32K/year, that's $2666/month. Most financial planning experts say your mortgage should be no more than 1/3 of your take-home salary; some go so far as to say it should be limited to 1/4 of your salary. Assuming you have a 0% tax rate, you'll need a mortgage of less than $888 per month. Those days, my friend, are over.

So, let's not pretend that it's tithing that led you to pick the $300K job over the $30K job. And your rather unlikely hypothetical about trying to support a family of 11 on a $30K/year salary just confirms my earlier statement that "As I've said, if we're hurting that badly, we probably aren't fully 'providing for our family' anyways and are eligible for a number of forms of assistance--either from the ward or via public and private social assistance programs. This notion of 'I can do either/or, but not both' is, in my experience, a false dichotomy. "

Now here is the moral question: Can you honestly say to yourself that Christ, if here, would ask the family of 11 to pay the same amount of tithing as the single man of 1? They both make the same amount, and so based on gross would both pay 10% or $3,000. However, these 2 groups have vast differences of excess or disposable income and need.

The one is being a wise steward; the other, perhaps not. You may choose to think that God punishes financial prudence. I disagree.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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...Wasn't it you who posted a Dialogue article sometime back that showed that at one point the rate was something like 2%, and that Apostles didn't typically tithe at all until the early 20th century? If you have the link, I'd love to re-read it...

Is this what you are talking about JAG?

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/102-17-29.pdf

M.

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I have always understood "income" to be financial earning through mine own labor. A gift, is not earned income, but a gif, for I didn't do any labor to receive an increase in my income. When an elderly lady, struggling to make ends meet, and she receives a gift of fast offerings -- is she required to pay a tithe -- no. What if this same lady receives a $50 dollar cash check in the mail to help her get by, pay for food and groceries for the week -- does she pay a tithe on this gift -- no. It was not her income, it was a gift. Plus, if the gift came from a member in good standing with the Church isn't the money being gifted already tithed?

Now, what if I am struggling, instead of my parents gifting me money to survive they actually provide a job by which I am able to perform...I work (labor) and then they pay me for this labor? This monies I would tithe because it was an increase of income through my labor.

However, if a person wants to pay tithing on a gift...that is purely up to them.

I agree with everything except the bolded part. What we owe in tithes has no bearing on what other people has paid in tithes even for the same 10 dollar bill.

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I agree with everything except the bolded part. What we owe in tithes has no bearing on what other people has paid in tithes even for the same 10 dollar bill.

I agree with that. If a member pays tithing on his earnings and then hires the neighbor kid to come mow his lawn and pays him $10..the kid still owes tithing even if the person who hired him had already paid tithing on that $10.

I still see it the same way with gifting. To me it's an increase. But that's my thoughts on it.

Others have their own ideas and thoughts on this.

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I agree with that. If a member pays tithing on his earnings and then hires the neighbor kid to come mow his lawn and pays him $10..the kid still owes tithing even if the person who hired him had already paid tithing on that $10.

I still see it the same way with gifting. To me it's an increase. But that's my thoughts on it.

Others have their own ideas and thoughts on this.

Yah. Yah.

Like allowance.

Some people have their kids tithe on their allowance, either for practice, or because once money has changed hands their view is that it's "new" money.

Some don't, since it's already been tithed on by the family.

Q

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