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Guest LiterateParakeet
I was hoping you'd check into the site in time to get to contribute to that thread. I was looking forward to your insight on it. Oh well, c'est la vie.

Thanks for thinking of me. ;) Yeah, it was locked, twice before I ever saw it. As you said, c'est la vie.

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In my personal life I don't like contention of any kind. I avoid it like the plague. And, whenever I get into any kind of heated discussion I usually am a wreck by the end of it and shaking like a leaf. I think I bring that personal dislike of contention here onto lds.net. I usually stay out of it, or if I do say something I try to be tactful and try not to incite any more hullabaloo.

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...One thing I am told that I wanted to bring up is that the new software won't have a "laugh" button. (No "groan" button either.) But just a "thanks" or a "thumbs up" button....

That's not good. That's what makes this forum different than others, it's those great buttons. I'm glad about the "Thanks" button but I will miss the "Laugh" button.

M.

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Before everyone gets all worked up over this, the software isn't final yet. Many things can be written into it. Yes there is new software coming. But we are working to make it as similar to the forums that we currently have.

Maureen, see pam's post on the new forum software.

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I don't participate much in threads because people rip apart my words rather than just understand what I am trying to say. Often I have agreed with people, but they stil chose to say "yes, but" and rip at the way I worded something. SO I try to fix it and it happen again. Most people will say something like "yes Jennarator, I know what you are saying and I agree," but then someone else says, but that isn't exactly what she "SAID." I think most of the time people can tell what I mean, but those few people that just rip me up one side and down the other have made me uncomforatable on here. It is frusterating, disheartening and rude.

There are however a few that stil listen to my vents when I need them. When I can post those rants on Facebook and I just need to get them out. For that I am appreciative. :)

Ok, that is my 2 cents.

Edited by Jennarator
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I've really grown to love this forum.

Most of the other forums I'm on, there's a great deal more homogeneity.

Here... On one thread I'm throwing my arms around someone and jumping up and down agreeing with them, and then on another thread absolutely disagreeing with them on every point, with my eyeballs rolling so far back into my head I'm practically seizing.

I like that. A lot. It wakes me up.

Maybe because, while very active, it's still a fairly small forum. With, what, 20 some odd regular posters, and double that intermittent ones... There aren't the groups that form with A-group all taking this stance, b-group that stance, c-group that other one. So instead of people just toeing party lines, one gets a real,sense of diversity. As everyone outlines their own particular views.

Here, people are very rich.

Very true to themselves.

On some issues E, P, V are in total agreement. In the next its E, A, M, ...& P, B, J, ...& V, C, L. All 3 in disagreement with each other, and agreeing with people they disagreed with in another thread. It's like the anti-clique. Super rare in Internet-land. More commonly, people self select into groups where everyone agrees on most things, and chase out those who don't.

Some posters almost unilaterally disagree with each other.

But when they do agree, no bones about it, they agree.

And vice versa. Those that are almost always in sympathy with each other, will diverge on issues, clearly and honestly.

Both of which is even rarer.

It's this fascinating dance to be able to watch, learn from, and be a part of.

A real gift.

There are brilliant & fine minds, generous hearts, and strong spirits here. Good people. Really, really good people. That I agree with, disagree with, and vice versa... But bottom line have really learned to very much respect each and every regular-intermittent poster, here. Whether we agree or not. This time, next, or nearly never.

All y'all make me a better person.

Q

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Hi Suzie. I hope you're doing well. :)

I wish to qualify my comments below because they aren't really positive. I almost didn't post anything in response but your post kept bothering me and so I needed to get my feelings out. I hope you don't get too offended by me sharing with you my feelings on your post.

I agree with this in part. By now, everyone knows that the way I think about certain topics is a little different from the majority of the members here on this site. JAG and I disagree in a lot of topics or let's just say we see things from a different perspective but as someone pointed out previously in another thread we always remain civil.

I must admit, not everyone knows the art of debating and JAG knows it very well and I enjoy debating with him.

As Churchill said "tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip". :P

In my opinion, a few people on this site lack the ability to disagree without becoming personal and emotional and even though I agree in part that we all come from different backgrounds, cultures, etc, I believe in most cultures, calling someone or implying that someone is a liar or an idiot just because they see things different than us is a no-no.

I have a hard time understanding the need of having other people agree with you. If I post something and someone disagrees with me and we entered a debate, why can't we keep it "professional" minus the emotional responses or personal attacks? You know, just exchanging views back and forth and trying to understand the other side rather than exchange views trying to prove the other person is wrong.

It is very hard to debate intellectually when the other side gets all worked up. Everyone gets upset at some point if they feel attacked. What I usually do is if I don't have anything else to say or I see the other person (or myself) becoming a little too agitated, I immediately remove myself from the discussion, thanking the other person for their contribution. I know it is perhaps not the best course of action, but is better than perpetuate the contention. Personally, I do not really care who agrees with me but I do care that others can understand (not agree) with my point of view so I try to ensure that I express my points properly.

When things get a little heated here it reminds me about when people use profanity in their language or they become loud and shout to get their point across, they do it because they do not know how to express themselves properly and they believe by using profanity or being loud the other side will have no choice but to listen and accept their point of view. It is actually a very common manipulation tool.

We have quite a few people who are very colorful in their speech and even though I believe it is a great talent to have, it can also be used to demean others, there are also others who will shred every little word you post and hack it to death... the thing is, what is the purpose of that? The whole topic becomes forgotten and the two or more people involved in the discussion take center stage which I think is the worst possible scenario that can happen to any forum. You want it to be about the topic, not about the posters.

We also quite a few posters who seem to think that we all should just accept everything they say, in whatever way they say it because "well, that's how I am" and even though I am all for acceptance, if the way we are posting is harming people in any way, shape or form then we should do a little introspection to see if some adjustments can be made to our speech.

We are always so worried about not spreading false doctrine here so new members don't get the wrong information, etc that we forget sometimes that people judge us and sees us not only for the information we share but by the way we interact with each other.

There has been numerous times that I stopped myself from replying because I just knew that certain posters would react in a certain way if someone dared to challenge their views because it has become a patter. It becomes a never ending emotional discussion and to be honest, it wasn't worth it.

The psychologist in me says there is a lot of people here struggling with a lot of frustrations, and of course we also need to add the fact that people in general seems to have a problem accepting that others just think differently and they are not asking for your approval and if you wish to enter a debate with them about their points, it is all good but keep it civil and professional and if you think you cannot do that, then why to enter such discussion?

I feel that your comments here are passive aggressive and that you are using this as an opportunity to vent. Although you don't name any names it feels like to me that you have some people in mind and you are using this as an opportunity to let them know what you don't like about them. To me you came across as condescending and self-righteous. Finally, your last paragraph, in my opinion, was very manipulative, intolerant, and assuming.

[moderator edit]

These are my feelings. I don't intend to offend even though I recognize that my comments aren't "happy thoughts". Also, I recognize that I am judging your post (and your intent), and being that I am a weak, fallen, and imperfect man I must also admit that I could have very well misinterpreted your post and its intent.

-Finrock

Edited by pam
Per mod discussion
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Hi Suzie. I hope you're doing well. :)

I wish to qualify my comments below because they aren't really positive. I almost didn't post anything in response but your post kept bothering me and so I needed to get my feelings out. I hope you don't get too offended by me sharing with you my feelings on your post.

I feel that your comments here are passive aggressive and that you are using this as an opportunity to vent. Although you don't name any names it feels like to me that you have some people in mind and you are using this as an opportunity to let them know what you don't like about them. To me you came across as condescending and self-righteous. Finally, your last paragraph, in my opinion, was very manipulative, intolerant, and assuming.

[moderator edit]

These are my feelings. I don't intend to offend even though I recognize that my comments aren't "happy thoughts". Also, I recognize that I am judging your post (and your intent), and being that I am a weak, fallen, and imperfect man I must also admit that I could have very well misinterpreted your post and its intent.

-Finrock

Hi there Finrock, you did not offend me at all. However you caught me off-guard and I must admit I find your reply to be bizarre to say the least. You are assuming a lot about me and my post and unfortunately, things that are not very positive such as me coming across as self-righteous, condescending, manipulative, intolerant and assuming.

I can live with that, and I respect your opinion however I must admit it bothered me that you compared me with the behavior of the people who abused you as a child, now that I cannot accept and I would please ask you to refrain from doing that again in the future with my posts, it is not appreciated and it's a direct insult, I wish you could remove such comparison from your post, it's hurtful.

As someone who does have a background in Psychology and work with people who have been severely abused, I take that part of your post very seriously and personal. I'm not angry but I must admit it saddens me.

Also, I recognize that I am judging your post (and your intent), and being that I am a weak, fallen, and imperfect man I must also admit that I could have very well misinterpreted your post and its intent.

We can't throw the stone and then hide the hand. Being imperfect it's not an excuse to post and throw out those sort of accusations and then say "well, I am imperfect so perhaps I am misinterpreting your post and intent". That's not how it works Finrock, a simple PM asking me about what I meant in that post would have been enough. Didn't happen, I wish it did.

Edited by skippy740
removed originally quoted text of prior post.
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Hi there Finrock, you did not offend me at all. However you caught me off-guard and I must admit I find your reply to be bizarre to say the least. You are assuming a lot about me and my post and unfortunately, things that are not very positive such as me coming across as self-righteous, condescending, manipulative, intolerant and assuming.

Yes, indeed. This is the way that I interpreted your post: I felt that it focused on how others have these issues and that you are better than many people on here because you can debate better, you have better manors, and you do all these things to make sure you don't hurt anyone. It felt like you were making passive aggressive remarks at several people on this forum with whom you have disagreed with in the past or you felt that they were morally inferior to you in some way because they didn't post in a way that you approved of. I felt that you made assumptions that others get emotional while you remain strictly professional. You compared other's posts to those who are emotionally abusive and claimed, passive aggressively, that they are manipulating the situation. I thought you bringing up your background as a psychologist to accuse others, passive aggressively, of having frustrations was manipulative. I felt that your post assumes (ironically) that because others may have disagreed with you or they do not post in the manner that you find acceptable they must have psychological problems. Not to mention how it seems that you were trying to make your points "criticism proof" by making a claim to authority (i.e., I'm a psychologist, therefore I know what I'm talking about and my negative judgments about "a few" and "some" posters is irrefutable and correct).

I can live with that, and I respect your opinion however I must admit it bothered me that you compared me with the behavior of the people who abused you as a child, now that I cannot accept and I would please ask you to refrain from doing that again in the future with my posts, it is not appreciated and it's a direct insult, I wish you could remove such comparison from your post, it's hurtful.

As someone who does have a background in Psychology and work with people who have been severely abused, I take that part of your post very seriously and personal. I'm not angry but I must admit it saddens me.

Well, it does sound like you got offended after all. I understood the potential to cause offense when I made my post, but, the truth is I felt that your post was attacking people while you were trying to come across as making an unbiased, "neutral" and professional observation.

I became familiar with passive aggressive and manipulative tactics by those who abused me. I can usually spot such behavior. But, you don't have to be an abuser in order to use passive aggressive and manipulative tactics. What I stated wasn't an insult on my part, either direct or indirect. I understand because of your background may have taken it as such, but to insult you isn't the reason why I posted it. It is only coincidental that you happen to work with those who have been abused. It could have been you or it could have been anyone (with any background), but anytime I feel like someone is being passive aggressive and manipulative it inadvertently but invariably reminds me of my past. It is the reason why I am so sensitive to it. That was the point I was trying to make.

We can't throw the stone and then hide the hand. Being imperfect it's not an excuse to post and throw out those sort of accusations and then say "well, I am imperfect so perhaps I am misinterpreting your post and intent". That's not how it works Finrock, a simple PM asking me about what I meant in that post would have been enough. Didn't happen, I wish it did.

You made, what I feel, was a public attack on a few posters on this forum in a passive aggressive and manipulative way. I made a public refutation as to what I felt your post was saying.

I'm not hiding my hand. I make no excuse for my words. First of all, I make no excuse because I don't agree that I was throwing stones. My intent wasn't to offend (even though I certainly recognized the potential) but I wanted to speak openly about how your post made me feel. I was telling you how I felt about your post. My last statement was to let you know that I've made no final judgments about your post. I am admitting, quite sincerely, that I very well might be wrong about the content and intent of your post. My statement wasn't made to excuse anything but rather it was intended to show you that even though I have these feelings about your post, I realize and fully admit that it doesn't mean that my feelings reflect reality. I wanted to show you that even though I can't deny my feelings, I am not being cruel and/or irrational. In other words, I'll believe you if you tell me I'm wrong.

-Finrock

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but anytime I feel like someone is being passive aggressive and manipulative it inadvertently but invariably reminds me of my past. It is the reason why I am so sensitive to it. That was the point I was trying to make.

I could quote every little part of your post and comment but I would like to focus on this one. Just as I told you privately some time ago, I am truly sorry for the abuse you went through as a child and I understand your sensitivity towards it and the scars that have been left but please let's not cross the boundaries of acceptable behavior and I believe you did by trying to pin or link the same behavior of your abusers to a complete internet stranger (me). Bizarre.

As I said before, I do not appreciate it. You don't know me, you might think you do but you don't. I don't have to tell you that you are wrong, why should I do that? Will you extend a sincere and public apology for your assumption if I did? And if your answer is yes, then wasn't better to ask the right questions first to find out my thoughts before expressing all those things about my persona?

You speak about making a public refutation but you did not refute anything, you merely threw out accusations stating that I come across and my post as condescending and self-righteous, manipulative, intolerant, and assuming. Let's add to the list that I think I am better than many people on here because I can debate better and have better manners, and others are morally inferior than me.

Really Finrock?

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Guest LiterateParakeet
Yes, indeed. This is the way that I interpreted your post: I felt that it focused on how others have these issues and that you are better than many people on here because you can debate better, you have better manors, and you do all these things to make sure you don't hurt anyone. It felt like you were making passive aggressive remarks at several people on this forum with whom you have disagreed with in the past or you felt that they were morally inferior to you in some way because they didn't post in a way that you approved of. I felt that you made assumptions that others get emotional while you remain strictly professional. You compared other's posts to those who are emotionally abusive and claimed, passive aggressively, that they are manipulating the situation. I thought you bringing up your background as a psychologist to accuse others, passive aggressively, of having frustrations was manipulative. I felt that your post assumes (ironically) that because others may have disagreed with you

Finrock, I have to admit I have found myself disagreeing with you many times in the past, but I don't remember ever seeing you speak so harshly and unkindly to someone. I didn't interpret Suzie's post the same way you did at all. Wingnut said she didn't get that out of it either.

I can certainly understand that because of your past you have a sensitivity to passive aggressive behavior, as you mentioned. But since you know that is an sensitivity of yours, then it seems reasonable to not say such unkind things to another person.

As one survivor to another, may I suggest that you take sometime for self-care? Pray, meditate, read the scriptures...whatever you do, because it seems to me that the anger you are expressing here is coming from a place that has nothing to do with Suzie.

Edited to add: sorry Pam, we cross-posted.

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Finrock, I have to admit I have found myself disagreeing with you many times in the past, but I don't remember ever seeing you speak so harshly and unkindly to someone.

Agreed. Very uncharacteristic and quite surprising coming from Finrock.

Edited by Wingnut
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When I joined the forum, I started off kinder in my responses but over time I've toughened up after being on the receiving end of certain discussions. While I'm sure there's been times that my posts could have been more gracefully worded, I always try to use tact, and I'm appreciate for the same in return - that meaning, we can disagree but don't belittle me for not seeing eye-to-eye with you.

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Just for the record, I'm not or have I been at any point angry, mad, upset, or anything of the sort. Neither was my intent to get personal but to address the contents of a post. I understand why Suzie feels the way she does and I'm sorry, Suzie, that you feel that I am trying to compare you to my abusers. That isn't what I was going for with those comments.

My motivation for saying anything at all was out of a sense of justice.

This is what I feel right now: If my feelings were right, then I did the right thing. If my feelings were wrong, then I am truly sorry for any inadvertent offense, but I still think that I did the right thing for acting on my feelings.

Out of respect for pam's request this is my last post on this point. I'll let others have the last word. :)

-Finrock

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I can see why Finrock said what he said about the post (I didn't see Frinrock's post before the mod edit so this comment is only for after mod edit). I kinda agree with him.

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There are many things that I believe the religious community could learn from the scientific community. I say this because we should desire to learn from every circumstance we experience. Because revelation comes by different means in the scientific community – truth is seldom an individual revelation. Rather it comes from collaboration. This may not be as far from gospel principles as may appear in first blush. We know that truth will have more than one witness or individual working to that end. In the priesthood the leadership is by presidency (not individual). Even the most important and enduring presidency to preside over families there is a father and a mother as established by G-d.

In the scientific community we call the most important collaboration peer review. I love this concept because the review by name is not one above another but a peer or same level review. In my personal work and profession the peer review is the great secret of my success. I find the peer review important in religious settings as well. In fact I see the entire understanding of the pre-existance as a peer review of G-d plan where the architect of the plan presents his plan in open review of all even the critic. I believe G-d answered all concerns truthfully and completely. In essence no stone was left unturned.

But in the pre-existance there were some interesting examples. In particular one that had an agenda to advance their own ideas rather than discuss a specific issue. The object of a peer review is not change the subject matter so much as to investigate specific concepts. There as some individuals I believe are so unstable with their own understanding that it is impossible for them to see any other possibility.

There are some deep thinkers on this forum – but to be sure I often like to throw them a curve to see what they will do with it. Some posters are so interesting in their responses I can hardly wait to see what they will do with the next curve. There are many I would mention but I must single out PC. because of his unique position of being non-LDS.

The Traveler

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Joke or not, mentioning a taser online to inspire fear makes me wonder what you are like on the job.

Let's parse this a bit. If the mention of using a taser was a joke, then it was not meant to inspire fear. So, if it was joke, then I would guess that the "on the job" demeanor is balanced, with a healthy internal sense of humor, and a wise dose of restraint (this device is less lethal than alternatives). :cool:

If the mention of taser online was not a joke, then wow! I mean, after all, "online tasers" don't work, right??? :P

Edited by prisonchaplain
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