Supposed problem in the ward over


Backroads
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So, as I've said before, I find myself living in a rather ritzy area, which has its perks. At first I thought it was just the one ward, but turns out the wards in the area tend to be "richer" with a healthy dose of poorer members.

Anywho, I've a friend in another ward in the area who has been reporting some big drama in their Relief Society. I find it shocking if it's as problematic as she reports and am just glad I haven't seen such behavior.

So, her Relief Society, like mine, has its share of wealthy old women and poor young starving student women. On Sundays, at church, everyone presumably comes in their Sunday best, whatever that might be. All the women are respectful of each other and kind and loving and all Relief Society women should be.

But weekly activities are popularly held at women's homes, namely, the homes of the older richer women. My grandmother tried to give us insight, basically boiling down to the fact that these older women believe in a lot more civility and glamor.

So, the outfits acceptable at church are not necessarily acceptable for a weeknight activity at someone's home. Apparently a big group of the older richer women expect the younger poorer girls to go out of their way to buy fancy cocktail dresses or outfits of a similar vein in order to set foot in their houses. Meetings have been held about this, apparently boiling down to one defense that "these younger women need to learn how to dress with respect when entering someone else's home" and "these older women are a bunch of a snooty old toads".

They tried holding activities at the church--older women refused to come. And supposedly some girls have intentionally entered the activity houses in sweats. Things are getting ugly.

Again, I'm not in the ward and am reporting this secondhand, but, wow, how would you handle that kind of drama in Relief Society?

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Have an RS Activity at the mall where the rich ladies go on a cocktail dress shopping spree for the poor girls like in the movie Pretty Woman... all purchases of course charged to the rich women's cards. :D

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If people are willing to host in their homes, that's fantastic. If they're going to put qualifications and requirements on who can enter, or how they must be dressed (other than not skimpily), that's not okay, and the activities should be held at the ward meetinghouse. If some people choose not to come to an activity because it's at the church building, that's their problem.

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If people are willing to host in their homes, that's fantastic. If they're going to put qualifications and requirements on who can enter, or how they must be dressed (other than not skimpily), that's not okay, and the activities should be held at the ward meetinghouse. If some people choose not to come to an activity because it's at the church building, that's their problem.

I actually had trouble with wording the bolded part. Initially I was going to say "modestly," but that didn't work: because women who wear cocktail dresses to RS activities, and expect -- nay, demand -- that everyone else also wear them, are the immodest ones.

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Apparently no one has been turned away from an activity, but the tension still exists.

I don't know if these women consider themselves having a higher dress standard than the Lord, but they do think a certain type of dress is needed to be polite when visiting others.

I suppose I can get behind my grandmother's theory of these women just trying to stick with the culture they were raised in, but it just seems silly.

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I don't know if these women consider themselves having a higher dress standard than the Lord, but they do think a certain type of dress is needed to be polite when visiting others.

That's fine, if they're being invited over for an afternoon tea, or a dinner party. A Relief Society activity (even in someone's house) should not require cocktail attire.

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"these younger women need to learn how to dress with respect when entering someone else's home" and "these older women are a bunch of a snooty old toads".
I'm having a hard time seeing my wife on any side here other than that of the younger/poorer women. She absolutely hated our experience a few wards ago that mixed rich and poor. She's told me in no uncertain terms that if someone redraws a boundary or something and we end up back there, we will be moving.
how would you handle that kind of drama in Relief Society?
Again from my wife - I've heard her make this comment more than once: "Don't bother cleaning just because we're coming over, we sure as heck ain't gonna clean if you come over." I don't think it's ever happened, but if she ever got invited somewhere and someone ends up getting uppity about her clothing, they're relieved of any future burdens of ever having her around them socially ever, ever again. Ever. That includes weddings and funerals. She just lives the life of someone with bigger things to worry about than drama, and the people who try to foist it at her.

(Yes, if you walk across our living room, you might hear a crunch. They tell me this will eventually go away as the kids grow up.)

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She just lives the life of someone with bigger things to worry about than drama, and the people who try to foist it at her.

I've learned that about your wife, with everything you've shared about her here. She deals with a lot at work, and her perspective likely doesn't leave much room for pettiness or unnecessary drama. But I admire her a little more every time you talk about her, just so you know. :)

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I can see a middle-of-the-road situation. Black tie (or whatever the female equivalent is) is, of course, silly. On the other hand--I think you should show respect to the people you visit--maybe not in Sunday Best; but severely worn clothing or very casual clothes like sweats are a little over the line (you can be poor but presentable). Deliberately wearing sweats to somebody's home because you know it will irritate them is just catty (as is refusing to attend a church activity because that activity is taking place in--heaven forbid!--a church).

It's easy to blame the rich; but it sounds to me like both sides here have some repenting to do.

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I can see a middle-of-the-road situation. Black tie (or whatever the female equivalent is) is, of course, silly. On the other hand--I think you should show respect to the people you visit--maybe not in Sunday Best; but severely worn clothing or very casual clothes like sweats are a little over the line (you can be poor but presentable). Deliberately wearing sweats to somebody's home because you know it will irritate them is just catty (as is refusing to attend a church activity because that activity is taking place in--heaven forbid!--a church).

It's easy to blame the rich; but it sounds to me like both sides here have some repenting to do.

I'll agree with that. But Devil's Advocate response: it sounds like maybe the younger/poorer group didn't start the major dressing-down until after their normal dressing-down (jeans and a sweater?) was already not good enough.

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JaG, I think you hit the nail on the head. The younger girls have certainly reacted inappropriately.

My view of the whole thing is a generational culture clash and I figure there must be some sort of happy medium in weeknight dress.

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There are similar problems in many wards, perhaps not to the extent that is being described by the OP, though there are such divisions in most wards.

Generational Culture has A LOT to do with it.

It is more apparent in wards that have a large older population & a large younger population with a fairly definite gap in the middle-age group. Utah has a lot of those, what had been longstanding wards where the older members have lived there for decades, the older member decreasing & young families are moving in.

The Older Generation was raised and taught with certain expectations, certain things that one does, certain ways one dresses and acts.

The younger generation were raised & taught with different levels of those same things.

My Generation, or rather what I learned as a teenager by observing my dad:

-When you know you are going to be giving a priesthood blessing, you dress appropriately, as in church dress. Most of the younger members of the EQ don't practice that.

-You make your home teaching visits in church dress.

-If you are accompanying the missionaries on a visit, you dress accordingly.

-I was taught that when you are in the bishopric or conducting in quorum or blessing your baby etc, you dress in a suit not just dress shirt & slacks.

The way one dresses not only sets a certain tone, it helps one act in a certain way, & in turn invites the Spirit rather then detracts.

Seems most of the younger generation either were not taught those things or didn't learn them or simply don't care.

But, that is obviously a Generational Opinion as I am rapidly entering that "Older Generation" group .... for some reason though I still prefer attending EQ even though I should be attending HP, maybe I feel younger when in a room with all those "kids".

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There are similar problems in many wards, perhaps not to the extent that is being described by the OP, though there are such divisions in most wards.

Generational Culture has A LOT to do with it.

It is more apparent in wards that have a large older population & a large younger population with a fairly definite gap in the middle-age group. Utah has a lot of those, what had been longstanding wards where the older members have lived there for decades, the older member decreasing & young families are moving in.

The Older Generation was raised and taught with certain expectations, certain things that one does, certain ways one dresses and acts.

The younger generation were raised & taught with different levels of those same things.

My Generation, or rather what I learned as a teenager by observing my dad:

-When you know you are going to be giving a priesthood blessing, you dress appropriately, as in church dress. Most of the younger members of the EQ don't practice that.

-You make your home teaching visits in church dress.

-If you are accompanying the missionaries on a visit, you dress accordingly.

-I was taught that when you are in the bishopric or conducting in quorum or blessing your baby etc, you dress in a suit not just dress shirt & slacks.

The way one dresses not only sets a certain tone, it helps one act in a certain way, & in turn invites the Spirit rather then detracts.

Seems most of the younger generation either were not taught those things or didn't learn them or simply don't care.

But, that is obviously a Generational Opinion as I am rapidly entering that "Older Generation" group .... for some reason though I still prefer attending EQ even though I should be attending HP, maybe I feel younger when in a room with all those "kids".

I was taught

As a guest: One must match the hostess. Whether it's gloves & gowns, or skivvies.

As a hostess: Take your level down to the lowest of your guests.

(And then, your other guests follow suit, clearly... As they must needs imitate you).

To do anything less on EITHER side shows poor grace.

A proper hostess should NEVER make a guest feel uncomfortable.

It's the worst of bad manners, and a deliberate insult.

_______

So I'm especially irked at these tacky classless hostesses.

It's intolerably rude of them.

_______

All of that said... While I had (multicultural) etiquette pounded into me from birth onward... I've turned down countless invitations because I didn't have the attire needed for a function. The older generations have all understood (as coming in less puts that pressure on a hostess to accommodate me, which then puts pressure on the rest of the guests to follow suit)... But the younger generation's rules are far more liberal / there is a great deal less class distinction. Most younger generation parties have more than one class in them, and it's very much a "come as you are" mentality.

Which I find charming.

As many/most KNOW the rules at least in a general sense, but are deliberately choosing to ignore them in favor of being able to spend time with more than one group of people at a time. Meaning class barriers are being broken down. Which I'm always fond of. But I was indoctrinated young into the ideal of "an aristocracy of talent" being what should be strived for.

Class distinctions in America are peculiar, because schools teach that they don't exist, and a lot of people like to pretend that they don't... Because there IS mobility between them. Especially with the narrowing of the middle class, though, classes are becoming far more recognizable for the younger generation than they are for the elder. I LIKE that the younger generation is thumbing its nose at the distinctions and inviting whom they like, come as you are, we want YOU as an individual.

Q

Edited by Quin
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I see a lot of this attitude in the nouveau riche. In my experience, really wealthy people are not only very down to earth but they don't have to show off or demand that others dress in a certain way to please them. Heck, sometimes the way they dress, talk and keep themselves is very modest. If you are driving a Lamborghini and stop at the red light and this old car is next to you, do you suddenly start speeding to show the other driver that you have a fancy and faster car? No, you don't.. you already know (and they know) that you have a Lamborghini.

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Also, there's absolutely no reason for anyone to wear an LBD to a Relief Society activity, unless it's a mocktail theme night, which I would be very surprised to ever see get past a bishop.

We had two 'mocktail' workshops as part of RS activities about four years ago at another ward I attended. They also themed the RS anniversary dinner with teapots as Emma Smith apparently held tea parties.

So...nothing surprises me anymore :rolleyes:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bah.

This is America. And, if Utah (not sure where the OP is from) the American West! Generational rebellion is an American tradition! :D Put the old bats in their place with the sweat pants says I.

Heheh.

Hmm...apparently I have some Generation X influences still driving me (those being driven, of course, ultimately from the 60s).

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Backroads, I guess I'm confused. Is this a "modesty issue" or a "dress ritzier issue"? The two are different.

 

 

Cocktail dresses can be cheap. You don't have to walk into a department store and spend $150 on one. Just go to Marshall's or TJMaxx and get one for under $20. And you'll still have money left over for groceries... Also, there are a multitude of styles when it comes to cocktail dresses. You can certainly find very appropriate ones that are knee-length, and cover up your garment areas. Now, if this is a "dress ritzier issue", I think that's something that ought to be challenged. Who is anyone to say that their "best attire" is the standard for everyone? Not sure how these dramas get resolved but it sounds like the bishop has had little to no luck. If things are truly that bad, I would opt-out until the ladies can be civil and meet on common ground. There's no point in attending a function if you're just there clashing against each other, baiting each other, and feeling resentment towards each other.

 

 

Last note on the rich... My parents live in a super snobby and ritzy area in southern Utah. I detest attending church with them because their ward feels "flashy" to me. But I can also relate to what Suzie posted, as we moved into an "old money" area, and the people here live in breath-taking residences, but are also the most humble folks you'll ever meet. Totally different "rich culture" here than where my parents are at. So, not sure how to explain that really. I guess it boils down to case by case basis, some folks are pride-filled, and others aren't.

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My upper-class sister is the picture of class and grace. What I learn from her has nothing to do with clothing. What's more, I learned from watching her. Primarily, it is this: class and graciousness is when you leave someone's home or send them from yours feeling better about themselves than when they came. She always takes the greatest care to make sure everyone around her, no matter their circumstance or what they are wearing, is comfortable. It's a beautiful thing to see. 

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